Kolokotroni and I have been running a quick combat-focused PbP with Falchion Fred level 10, Swashbuckler Sally level 10, and Back-up Bob, a level 9 Cleric. Due to small party size, the party is very slightly weaker in effective level than a four person party of level 9 characters (if Bob was also 10, it would be equal, I believe). One of the conceits of the playtest is that Sally and Fred share their d20 rolls for all things. This lets us really target out the differences that aren't from the dice alone.
So far, we've had two fights. First was against two dire bears. Fred wound up going first and thus getting only one attack while Sally got a full, but it's easy to swap the two of them if we want, and that shows that Sally staggered her bear with a crit and a hit while Fred would have had the bear at 7 health if he had been in her position. The bears did not use Grab, which would have advantaged Sally since she has a one-handed weapon.
Otherwise, they were both awesome and annihilated this roughly-on-CR encounter. Bob healed them up.
The next fight was 6 Highwaymen (CR 6) and 1 Halfling leader (CR 8), which is very nearly CR 12 but not quite. Since the party was very nearly the strength of a level 9 party of 4 but not quite, this is roughly a APL+3 challenging encounter. This time Sally and Fred made their attacks in tandem due to both needing to charge in. Sally picked up a noticable edge on the first round because they didn't crit but she did double Precise Strike damage anyway, but the damage was unneeded to kill the guy they both attacked. On the second round, they hit then crit, so her extra damage was also irrelevant in the overkill. On round 3, Fred crit but did not drop the halfling leader in one hit, but if it had been Sally, she would have done so, so Fred had to attack again for wasteful overkill, whereas Sally would have gotten two attacks. So that's the second time her extra damage was just enough to make a difference to whether the enemy was defeated. Both Sally and Fred got beaten to about half health during the fight. If they had focus-fired, they still wouldn't have dropped either of them, since Bob did a pointless morningstar attack that could have been a Delay->Cure if one of them was low. Sally's one lower AC caused her to take one extra hit due a fluke bad roll for an enemy (needed a 3 to hit Fred or a 2 to hit Sally, rolled a 2). Sally's 2 extra CMD never mattered so far.
So takeaway points--Both Falchion Fred and Swashbuckler Sally are awesome characters who more than pull their own weight. They both do plenty of damage. But Sally does more. Than the Fighter. And her advantage grows even larger on rounds when they don't both crit (to be fair, Fred has an edge on rounds where they crit twice, but rounds with no crits are way more common). Sally doesn't even use any of her Panache tricks except a steady Precise Strike whenever she has more than 1 Panache (so far she is always at full, often overflowing in the bandit fight)
It used to be the balance there was that Sally's Precise Strike didn't hit certain types of enemies. But I agree with the Design Team that it wasn't a good way to balance, and I'm glad they removed that. What we need now is a minor debuff. I've discussed a few possibilities in the discussion thread, although anything that eliminates the divergence based on whether Dervish Dance is allowed (for clarification, we did not use Dervish Dance in our playtest) will be a plus (for instance Temeryn's proposal to buff Precise Strike a bit and make it replace Str bonus to damage).
My takeaways from the playtest so far:
IF the swashbuckler gets his primary stat to damage (either dex based with an agile weapon, or with dervish dance, or if its strength based without those 2 things) then it does slightly edge out the 2handed fighter in damage, though they were similar.
The swashbuckler will also have a much bigger advantage against multiple weaker opponents (she was droping one of the bandits almost every round) as she will have more panache to play with.
But thats not an insignificant if. Some dms in my group dont allow dervish dance or agile weapons. And a strength build using a rapier and light armor, while functional (sally showed that) is somewhat off theme.
The idea of precise strike replacing strength is an interesting one. I just caution against too much of a knee jerk reaction that could make it very unfortunate to be a non-dervish dancing dex based swashbuckler.
My takeaways from the playtest so far:
IF the swashbuckler gets his primary stat to damage (either dex based with an agile weapon, or with dervish dance, or if its strength based without those 2 things) then it does slightly edge out the 2handed fighter in damage, though they were similar.
The swashbuckler will also have a much bigger advantage against multiple weaker opponents (she was droping one of the bandits almost every round) as she will have more panache to play with.
But thats not an insignificant if. Some dms in my group dont allow dervish dance or agile weapons. And a strength build using a rapier and light armor, while functional (sally showed that) is somewhat off theme.
The idea of precise strike replacing strength is an interesting one. I just caution against too much of a knee jerk reaction that could make it very unfortunate to be a non-dervish dancing dex based swashbuckler.
To be fair, she was usually overflowing her panache from the kills. Her crits did a pretty good job keeping her at full, kill or no kill. Honestly, the weaker opponent fight showed me that Sally could have probably afforded to drop Dodge for Combat Reflexes so she could try to Parry->Riposte when she is at completely full Panache (at the cost of not being able to double Precise Strike the following round if she doesn't crit the Riposte or drop the guy). The idea would have been to drop any enemy that had already taken a hit (which would have happened if they ever rolled crit followed by hit against the bandits, which they never did).
The idea of precise strike replacing strength is an interesting one. I just caution against too much of a knee jerk reaction that could make it very unfortunate to be a non-dervish dancing dex based swashbuckler.
Well hopefully it would be buffed slightly (making it multiply on a crit would cover that I think, but I have to check the math) also, for the explicit purpose of making the Dex-based non-dervish the choice build (Dervish or Strength would still be stronger at low levels when Dex bonus is higher than level).
Also I would strongly recommend others take a crack at something like what Rogue Eidolon and I did. Its fairly quick if both are on at the same time, and it honestly gives a better picture if someone else is involved in the process then if its a purely mental excersize. Its not exactly a 'pure' playtest with a full scenario or anything, but it definately gives me some new insight into the swashbuckler beyond what I got with my playtest earlier this week. Comparing it with the 2weapon fighter was much more informative then the considerably weaker free hand fighter.
Also I would strongly recommend others take a crack at something like what Rogue Eidolon and I did. Its fairly quick if both are on at the same time, and it honestly gives a better picture if someone else is involved in the process then if its a purely mental excersize. Its not exactly a 'pure' playtest with a full scenario or anything, but it definately gives me some new insight into the swashbuckler beyond what I got with my playtest earlier this week. Comparing it with the 2weapon fighter was much more informative then the considerably weaker free hand fighter.
I'll take this moment to add that I think everyone wants to see the swashbuckler be stronger than the considerably-weak free hand fighter. I just don't think it should outdamage the two-handed fighter while also having all these panache toys and more skill points.
Actually, I'll take a crack at retconning Dex-based Temeryn version of Sally into our playtest and see what changes!
Do you have sallys or freds write up?
If I may ask, what were the twos base stats, AC, and saves?
OK, just ran it through. Right now with Temeryn's version (no stat to damage with Precise Strike, but it multiplies on a crit), Sally loses 6 damage on non crits and 2 damage on crits. She gains 4 AC, but trades Dodge for Combat Reflexes to just gain 3 AC. This means she doesn't stagger the bear in the first fight, but she parries and ripostes its first attack and drops it (Due to needing less Strength now, she can switch Strength and Charisma to have 5 Panache). This leaves her with only 4 Panache out of 5 after the bears.
In the second fight, Sally still gets hit by the slinger's ranged attack against flat-footed (with level 11's Uncanny Dodge, she completely loses that vulnerability to flat-footed, as 11 is actually quite a swank level for Swash compared to Fighter--given that the Swash is already outperforming the Fighter, there's no way she needed Uncanny, Improved Uncanny, and Evasion. Imagine if she had had those in our fight!). She can now AoO all the bandits that go around them (maybe one fewer would go around though), and in fact with parry and riposte, she never gets hit again for the rest of the fight (the slinger's modified 37 would have hit her despite her parry, but the slinger doesn't live to that round due to riposte). Now to be fair, on fight 2, there was a lot of overkill flying around because the highwaymen happened to have more than max damage from a single non-crit but way way less than two hits or a crit, so Sally's loss of 6 damage per non-crit (and 2 per crit) turned out to be basically invisible.
Do you have sallys or freds write up?
You can see everything we did here including a writeup of fred and sally.
Do you have sallys or freds write up?You can see everything we did here including a writeup of fred and sally.
Shortly afterwards Sally became able to use a buckler, so now she has a +1 Buckler.
Shortly afterwards Sally became able to use a buckler, so now she has a +1 Buckler.Do you have sallys or freds write up?You can see everything we did here including a writeup of fred and sally.
When were you able to precise strike with a buckler?
Stephen Radney Macfarland confirmed in the giant Swash thread that you can Precise Strike with a buckler and it now hurts all types of monsters.
So their damage is pretty close, and the swashbuckler gets ahead in a number of situations.
But Sally gets a number of other useful class features that the fighter does not.
It sounds like there's going to need to some tweaking to lower the damage level, due to all the extras Sally gets.
So their damage is pretty close, and the swashbuckler gets ahead in a number of situations.
But Sally gets a number of other useful class features that the fighter does not.
It sounds like there's going to need to some tweaking to lower the damage level, due to all the extras Sally gets.
The interesting thing is that Sally actually gets an even stronger offense in fight 2 with the Temeryn rebalance (less damage per hit, but a few ripostes), but that relies on a lot of mook kills to fuel the panache. If she can't afford to spend 3 panache per round, the Temeryn rebalance does push Sally down behind Fred. So that's another thing I like about it--it makes them both better in different situations, and thematically based on swashbuckler fiction, they do excel when fighting easy guys and truly humiliating them.
The interesting thing is that Sally actually gets an even stronger offense in fight 2 with the Temeryn rebalance (less damage per hit, but a few ripostes), but that relies on a lot of mook kills to fuel the panache. If she can't afford to spend 3 panache per round, the Temeryn rebalance does push Sally down behind Fred. So that's another thing I like about it--it makes them both better in different situations, and thematically based on swashbuckler fiction, they do excel when fighting easy guys and truly humiliating them.So their damage is pretty close, and the swashbuckler gets ahead in a number of situations.
But Sally gets a number of other useful class features that the fighter does not.
It sounds like there's going to need to some tweaking to lower the damage level, due to all the extras Sally gets.
The other side of that coin is, of course, that if the Swashbuckler had Dex to damage, it would have both cakes and eat them both. Sally would do the same damage per hit as currently (so in other words, more than Fred) while ALSO being able to make those ripostes AND having better AC too (and at level 11, an even higher advantage in both flat-footed and touch than Fred due to Uncanny Dodge).
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The interesting thing is that Sally actually gets an even stronger offense in fight 2 with the Temeryn rebalance (less damage per hit, but a few ripostes), but that relies on a lot of mook kills to fuel the panache. If she can't afford to spend 3 panache per round, the Temeryn rebalance does push Sally down behind Fred. So that's another thing I like about it--it makes them both better in different situations, and thematically based on swashbuckler fiction, they do excel when fighting easy guys and truly humiliating them.
Nice! It's awesome to see flavor and mechanics work out like that.
Cheers!
Landon
The interesting thing is that Sally actually gets an even stronger offense in fight 2 with the Temeryn rebalance (less damage per hit, but a few ripostes), but that relies on a lot of mook kills to fuel the panache. If she can't afford to spend 3 panache per round, the Temeryn rebalance does push Sally down behind Fred. So that's another thing I like about it--it makes them both better in different situations, and thematically based on swashbuckler fiction, they do excel when fighting easy guys and truly humiliating them.Nice! It's awesome to see flavor and mechanics work out like that.
Cheers!
Landon
Well, that's only true if we go with Temeryn's rebalance. Right now, Sally is just higher damage on everything and fighting the mooks didn't help much because she overflowed panache anyway.
Thanks for your playtest feedback, R.E.! :)
Have you tried a version with an optimised fighter?
Don't be a jerk.
Have you tried a version with an optimised fighter?Of course not. Seems to me there is an agenda here, as the primary focus of the posts in multiple threads by certain unnamed participants have been to push for a nerfing of the already weak (at low levels) swashbuckler. If anything, this just proves that the swashbuckler needs more tweaks to limit/discourage STR builds (which don't fit the concept in the first place).
It's not too hard to manipulate the stats of characters and builds to reach any conclusion you desire (with all the variables involved here in PF). In fact, I think I'll roll up an optimized fighter and Dex-based swashbuckler with normal feat choices and playtest a little bit. I'll post it up in a while...
Kolokotroni started out on the side that he wasn't sure if the Swashbuckler was as strong as my math said. He linked the Fred build we used. I modified to create Sally. And now we're working together, two people who started with different opinions and wanted to find the truth through an empirical process. I'm looking forward to your playtest too! Be sure that if you go through every splatbook to find optimizations for the Fighter that you also use every trick in the book for the Swashbuckler too. Kolokotroni's linked Fred build was compelling because it represents the pinnacle in DPR for a melee fighter using the core book and the other restrictions in the DPR Olympics thread. There's no tricks to it. If you think that there's a definitively better fighter in the CRB (using the DPR Olympics rules which appear to require elite array), then let me know and I can always retcon the math. But once we pull in every splatbook out there, it becomes another whole game of finding all the little hidden buffs. To give an example in another class, people are discussing Investigator's ability to dominate certain skills even compared to bards, but if we pull in every book out there, there's an extremely poorly-designed bardic performance called Pageant of the Peacock that lets the Bard use Bluff to replace all Int-based skills for low cost. They probably shouldn't balance Investigator considering Pageant of the Peacock, however. To quote Cheapy's post on the blog right after the playtest was announced:
Core! Core is great because it sets the base-line level of power. It’s fine if you play some tengu with 5 natural attacks at first level or some aasimar that through various rules hoops has some feats meant for tieflings, but if you find that with the new classes you’re making a completely ridiculous character, consider how much of that is due to the new classes versus the non-core rules. In fact, keep that in mind with core rules as well.
Following Cheapy's advice, he at least suggests we shouldn't build a Crane Dervish Swashbuckler and then call the class broken just because that build might be too powerful. But similarly, it's hardly fair to give all that stuff to the Fighter and then not the Swashbuckler.
Essentially, we have to decide what a level playing field is at some point, somewhere. If you have any advice for improving A Man in Black's core only elite array Fighter build for Fred, let me know. But this particular playtest, at least, is not going to be about hunting all the obscure options that both classes can use (especially since we are missing the other options that will be in the ACG that we don't even know about yet). I think another playtest that you make where you do that would be excellent too, but really call out as many people as possible to find every little benefit for both sides, or you might risk seeming biased for one side, as I have apparently seemed to you.
For everyone else, sorry for all the text. I think it's important that the origin of the playtest be there for all to see. I hope I can eventually convince Throne and Eirikrautha, but if not, I'd like to have my thought process and the process by which the playtest was born out there anyway.
So in brief summary: Cheapy, a smart guy, called on us to consider sticking as close to core as possible. Then, Kolokotroni and I were interested in investigating the Swashbuckler's potential, though our guts and math put us on opposite viewpoints of what we might see. Still, we were both willing to be convinced by the playtest. Kolokotroni offered up a link to Fred from DPR Olympics, and I created Sally from Fred, and from there, he's making some challenges for us to fight.
Core is the best comparison you can have. It's the one thing you can be certain that everyone who plays this new book has. If there are issues compared to core, you're going to have issues with expanded material.
Have you tried a version with an optimised fighter?Of course not. Seems to me there is an agenda here, as the primary focus of the posts in multiple threads by certain unnamed participants have been to push for a nerfing of the already weak (at low levels) swashbuckler. If anything, this just proves that the swashbuckler needs more tweaks to limit/discourage STR builds (which don't fit the concept in the first place).
It's not too hard to manipulate the stats of characters and builds to reach any conclusion you desire (with all the variables involved here in PF). In fact, I think I'll roll up an optimized fighter and Dex-based swashbuckler with normal feat choices and playtest a little bit. I'll post it up in a while...
The Swashbuckler is weak at more than just low levels. Most of its deeds, which are its only mid-high level class features (other than scaling bonuses), are mediocre. This is on top of the already sizable disadvantage of all martial classes against spellcasters.
I've been posting regularly in the main Swashbuckler thread, but everything I've dealt with so far has been low level stuff.
I hardly think 'core rulebook + APG' counts as digging through every splatbook for every trick.
I'm pretty easy to convince, really (and overall have a personal interest in seeing if Str is too good for the Swashbuckler, since I'd hate to see it go to print in that state); just show your working (not like with the 'swashbuckler does too much damage!' thread where you only gave the delta), with a Fighter that doesn't ignore over 50% of the options available, and doesn't use 4 year old optimisation theory
Using only the core rulebook for your fighter and, by definition, an advanced splatbook for your swashbuckler is always going to produce a skewed result, and attempts to claim this produces the fairest comparison ring somewhat disingenuous.
That doesn't produce a picture of 'swashbuckler is stronger than fighter', that produces a picture of 'core rulebook only is weaker than core rulebook + extra book', which is kind of a 'well, no sh*t, Sherlock' result.
Core is the best comparison you can have. It's the one thing you can be certain that everyone who plays this new book has. If there are issues compared to core, you're going to have issues with expanded material.
If a non core option is so game changing and powerful that it starts a conga line 15 seconds after going live I think that needs to become the default assumption.
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I hardly think 'core rulebook + APG' counts as digging through every splatbook for every trick.
I'm pretty easy to convince, really (and overall have a personal interest in seeing if Str is too good for the Swashbuckler, since I'd hate to see it go to print in that state); just show your working (not like with the 'swashbuckler does too much damage!' thread where you only gave the delta), with a Fighter that doesn't ignore over 50% of the options available, and doesn't use 4 year old optimisation theory
Post what you consider to be an optimized Core+APG fighter build, then, and we'll compare. Let's try to be productive here.
Yeah. It's weird how high the goalposts are for some people to not be declared "mediocre", as Fred has been declared several times. Fred and Sally beat an effectively CR=APL+3 encounter (adjusted for party size) without breaking stride. He's probably completely optimized for damage for a 15 PB using core stuff, too. And that's mediocre?
The only thing you can give him from the APG without significantly costing him defensively is probably Furious Focus, which wouldn't have mattered in any of the fights so far, since the two of them are already so optimized for accuracy that they never missed (Two-Handed Fighter archetype would cost us Armor Training, which would either cost 1 AC and 10 movement speed or 5 AC or 3 AC and 3000 gold, Gloves of Dueling would required unenchanting either the Strength gloves and two AC items, losing two AC for 1 attack bonus gain and no damage, or else the weapon and one AC item, losing 1 AC and the ability to penetrate silver and cold iron for +1 to hit and +1 damage--I can't think of any more APG things off the top of my head, and of those, the archetype and the gloves together would have gotten Fred hit by an enormous number more of the enemies' attacks, while the feat would not have been relevant so far because the highest AC was 22, and they both already hit that on a 2 when Power Attacking).
Of course, we need to scour APG for things to give to Sally; I haven't built a swashbucklerish build with APG, so I'm less familiar with what we would be cherrypicking from there, and the nonparallelism of what we cherrypick on both sides could cause skew (what if Sally gets some weird APG ability that puts her above the line only because of using it? I like the extreme parallelism of the core because it's easy to attribute Sally's successes to her class). Also, there's a fairly low but non-zero chance that Sally will be able to use Gloves of Dueling anyway in the final wording of her class feature, but I don't think anyone should hold their breath for that.
Post what you consider to be an optimized Core+APG fighter build, then, and we'll compare. Let's try to be productive here.
I'm putting together sheets for a similar playtest on r20 early in the week. I'll toss the stats and results up here.
Books being used will be the CRB, 'Advanced' and 'Ultimates', because it's worse than short-sighted to try balancing (or argue for balancing) around where the game was 4 years ago, it's actively asking for problems the second they hook up with more recent material.
Everything in them is available on the SRD sites, so claiming 'but people might only have the CRB' doesn't really hold up, and likewise if they're playing a CRB only game, they're not going to be using anything from Advanced Classes (if they're saying CRB and Advanced Classes only... well, you're always likely to run into some issues when you pick what you allow with a dartboard, and it's not really helpful to give such edge cases the same weight as more common playstyles).
Yes, this might give the Fighters an advantage, having several years more support. But that's always going to be the case, because they get that headstart, so shouldn't be handwaved away as though it doesn't exist.
Even if, and I am far from convinced, an optimized Swashbuckler out-DPRs a core two-handed fighter build, so what? Why is that not the swashbuckler's role? No one is surprised that a barbarian can do it, or that a well-built rogue can do so in short bursts.
Actually, does a CRB barbarian do more at level 10? 11 is a big level for both Barbarian and Swashbuckler (holy crap does Swashbuckler get a lot at level 11). At level 10, I think the CRB Falchion Fighter has a damage edge over the raging CRB Falchion Barbarian. The Barbarian has 3 extra damage and 2 to hit from rage, while the fighter has 3 to hit from Greater Focus and Weapon Training and 4 to damage from Weapon Specialization and Weapon Training. Did I miss something important?
This is an interesting (and effective) comparison. I wont argue that the swashbuckler is a damage beast with precise strike; my own theoretical builds show it doing more damage than most of my THF builds.
I'm hoping they dont diminish the swashbuckler too much (cant dex-fighters have nice things?) but this does show a significant disbalance. I'm just really hoping the general opinion people get from this isnt "OP!NERF NERF NERF" because that's that's the impression I'm getting from this thread (and the previous one).
Any ideas how to balance this? My main 2 ideas are:
1) Halve precise strike damage to 1/2 level (basically meet the duelist in 20 levels);
2) (optional): make precise strike cost one panac; signature deed will cover the difference for those who want;
3) Allow swashbuckler weapon training to give dex to damage (like gun training)
I know the both of you (kolokotroni & rogue eidolon) are experienced members of the community, so I'd be interested in hearing about how you think this can be balanced, rather than just "it's unbalanced".
Even if, and I am far from convinced, an optimized Swashbuckler out-DPRs a core two-handed fighter build, so what? Why is that not the swashbuckler's role? No one is surprised that a barbarian can do it, or that a well-built rogue can do so in short bursts.Actually, does a CRB barbarian do more at level 10? 11 is a big level for both Barbarian and Swashbuckler (holy crap does Swashbuckler get a lot at level 11). At level 10, I think the CRB Falchion Fighter has a damage edge over the raging CRB Falchion Barbarian. The Barbarian has 3 extra damage and 2 to hit from rage, while the fighter has 3 to hit from Greater Focus and Weapon Training and 4 to damage from Weapon Specialization and Weapon Training. Did I miss something important?
He's including non-core material.
I think a lot of the griping stems from the idea that you're sticking to core sources while playtesting a non-core class.
To me it seems that the class just needs it's damage mechanic tied to a stat rather than precise strike.
He's including non-core material.
I think a lot of the griping stems from the idea that you're sticking to core sources while playtesting a non-core class.
Exactly so.
They're comparing apples to oranges and complaining one is greener than the other.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The non-core classes should still strive to be equal to the core classes. Otherwise, this is the powertreadmill that Paizo has said they are wary of avoiding. That's why you should use Core as much as possible when playtesting.
It isolates the powercreep to just the new elements you are playtesting.
You have a control group, Core, and then the experimental group, the non-Core class. This is just experimental and testing basics. Limit the factors, and test there.
I can see the wisdom in testing against the basics.
There's no wisdom in testing just with the basics. That's not going to give you any kind of accurate picture of how things will end up.
The game has changed so much since core that testing something with core only is like testing it in 3.5.
No, it's like feeding chemicals to rats and then declaring that those chemicals will cause cancer in humans (if you want to use scientific metaphors). No one, especially in PFS, will be using only Core materials for their Core classes. Ever. So you are "balancing" to a fictional standard that does not represent actual usage.The non-core classes should still strive to be equal to the core classes. Otherwise, this is the powertreadmill that Paizo has said they are wary of avoiding. That's why you should use Core as much as possible when playtesting.
It isolates the powercreep to just the new elements you are playtesting.
You have a control group, Core, and then the experimental group, the non-Core class. This is just experimental and testing basics. Limit the factors, and test there.
In PFS, things like agile and dervish dance exist (since it's in Pathfinder Society Field Guide). These are huge gamechangers for Swashbuckler, and they should more than make up for everything the Fighter gets. But "anything goes PFS Legal" might have yet more other things that I can't think of at the moment.
Anyway, please take this discussion to a discussion thread so we can leave this thread for playtest feedback (at this point, this extremely deraily discussion has MORE posts in this thread than the actual feedback). I'm somewhat uncertain as to why this thread is being so much more heckled than all of the other playtests (many of which have characters that are not nearly as optimized for damage as Falchion Fred, despite using non-core), but I'd like to think that it's because everyone holds me and Kolokotroni to a higher standard than the other playtests because that's the most flattering reason for both sides.
This is an interesting (and effective) comparison. I wont argue that the swashbuckler is a damage beast with precise strike; my own theoretical builds show it doing more damage than most of my THF builds.
I'm hoping they dont diminish the swashbuckler too much (cant dex-fighters have nice things?) but this does show a significant disbalance. I'm just really hoping the general opinion people get from this isnt "OP!NERF NERF NERF" because that's that's the impression I'm getting from this thread (and the previous one).
Any ideas how to balance this? My main 2 ideas are:
1) Halve precise strike damage to 1/2 level (basically meet the duelist in 20 levels);
2) (optional): make precise strike cost one panac; signature deed will cover the difference for those who want;
3) Allow swashbuckler weapon training to give dex to damage (like gun training)
I know the both of you (kolokotroni & rogue eidolon) are experienced members of the community, so I'd be interested in hearing about how you think this can be balanced, rather than just "it's unbalanced".
Let's talk about this, as it's a productive and insightful discussion of the playtest. I agree with you williamoak--swashbuckler needs a small debuff, but not too much. Your option 1 (allowing it to double on a crit to add back in some damage) is good. Another good one is removing Str/Dex to damage entirely if you use Precise Strike (and keep it as high as it is right now, allowing it to double on a crit as well).
Your option (1) with doubling on a crit would give Sally -5 damage on a non-crit, -0 on a crit, -5 when spending panache to double. The other choice I just gave gives Sally -6 damage on a non-crit, -2 damage on a crit, -0 when spending panache to double. So they're very similar in balance to each other. Also option 2 encourages Dex-based build without making Dervish Dance or agile vastly more powerful than other choices.
Thanks for your response RE; I'm really looking to have a serious discussion about how to make the class "flow" better in people's mind.
That being said, I dont believe that it's possible to invalidate the need for agile & dervish dance with precise strike in it's current form. This class faces the smae problem as a rogue, IE precise strike (your main source of damage) simply doesnt work against a notable subset of enemies. A rogue, at the very least, cna hide & slink away; but this guy is expected to be on the frontline.
I do like your idea of removing str/dex from damage in precise strike, and it makes thematic sense too. I do however believe that precise strike should ALWAYS cost 1 panache & the guy gets dex to damage. This way, it's main damage source WONT be precise strike so that it can still deal with the occasional elemental & ooze). HOWEVER, signature deed can still allow those who prefer precise strike as damage to be used as their main damage source, rather than a supplement.
Basically, I dont think a frontliner's main damage source be reduced to nothing against a subset of enemies.