Now A lot of people love the Arcanist, I do too but I have to wonder if it is overpowered. It also seems to me that when an Arcanist is available to play, from a mechanical perspective there is little reason to play either the Sorcerer or Wizard. Compared to the Sorcerer you have a larger spell selection at the loss of a spell per day of each level and the loss of your 20th level capstone. For a Wizard you gain an extra spell slot of every level per day and the flexibility of spontaneous casting. You just lose out on your arcane school.
Also, it seems to me that the Arcanist is now more powerful than one, if not the strongest classes in the game, the Wizard and that is the opposite of what should be done. The floor should be raised, not the ceiling.
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Overpowered? Barely. It's just a matter of checking and perhaps trimming a couple numbers, and perhaps considering how it works with metamagic and certain magic items.
The bigger issue, I find, is the flavor not being quite /there/.
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I don't know why people think this class is overpowered, maybe im missing something, but im making one for our playtest group and all I see is a watered down wizard with spontaneous casting. They've taken away the best of both classes ( wizard and sorcerer )and mushed it together poorly. Im not even doing the blood focus thing which makes no sense to me as how it ties to the arcanist, I mean seriously look at this from a level 5 perspective. Your stuck with only 2 to 3 spells per encounter, and 5 of those weird blood moves for the whole game, 4 really because if you use the last one your screwed. So you can either sit back and watch everyone else play until you get closer to the end of a scenario or burn out early and hope the group can kill the boss while you count threads in the carpet. With no bonded or even bloodline level one powers, you are truly a glass canon. I think they should have forced the arcanist to arcane bond their spellbook, and give you watered down bloodline styled abilities. To me it makes more sense, bonding yourself to your spellbook instead of the need to bleed yourself. Its not like your a magical creature now that your a arcanist, your just a more devoted caster than most. Personally imo, and imo only, I would rather play a sorcerer or a wizard than this really poorly designed hybrid. I don't want to be mean, but I just cant help but think, boring, when im preparing to play this class. And yes, I primarily play casters, Sorcerers FTW^^, with much love and respect this is my opinion.
On one hand it is being compared to the wizard. Mechanically why would you play a sorcerer over the Arcanist? Bloodlines are not a acceptable balance point against a way larger spell list. Also if the class is on par with the wizard what about the rest of the game? There is no need for another class that is as powerful, if not more powerful than the wizard.
But I do want to say that I started this thread to discuss the mechanical aspects of the Arcanist and how it fits into the game with the other classes that are available, I'm fine with personal preference.
A wizard who can cast spontaneously is absolutely terrifying.
the Arcanist takes away Batman's one weakness, being caught off guard.
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spells are not only two items. spells are everything in the game.
Of course it's overpowered. It's a mashup of Wizard and Sorcerer, both of which are overpowered. Is it overpowered when compared with the Wizard? I think so, but the jury's still out. There's a lot of discussion on that in the Arcanist dedicated thread.
I'm thinking I like the casting mechanic, but its kinda weak on the other abilities. I think it might do better as a pure wizard alternate instead.
The arcanist can prepare as many spells per day as a sorcerer has known, and it can also change those spells out. However it cast one less spell per day per level. I am not convinced that is enough at higher levels. Now if it could prepare one less spell per day than the sorcerer knows that would be different. I would not mind pushing that as an idea, since that would make it closer to the 3.5 battle sorcerer which gave up a spell known. That lost of an extra spell availible hurts. It is not too much to be overcome, but it is not something to be ignored.
The class does seem to be on the verge of being the best at metamagic though.
As for the lack of flavor, I think that is for the players and GM to provide.
I would like to point out to people that Eldritch Heritage still exists...
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The arcanist can prepare as many spells per day as a sorcerer has knownNo it cant and keep saying that it can doesn't make it true.
10th level Arcanist can prepare 9 Cantrips, 5 1st-level spells, 4 2nd, 3 3rd, 2 4th, and 1 5th. Look at the SECOND chart, the one BELOW the chart including the full level progression; that first chart is SPELL SLOTS PER DAY.
10th level Sorc knows... hey! 9 Cantrips, 5 1st-level spells, 4 2nd, 3 3rd, 2 4th, and 1 5th. Again, SECOND CHART. (This is of course without favored class bonuses from the races that can take the "learn one new spell of one level or more less than your highest level spell" option like Humans.)
Want to try that again?
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Arcanists completely obsolete Sorcerer, which are alreadya very powerful class. They also obsolete Wizards on 60% of levels (all even numbered levels and 19th level as well).
A class that manages to obsolete 2 full arcane casters (one of which is probably the most powerful class in the game) is definitely broken. Not having a familiar and limited uses of bloodline powers is a completely minor disadvantage compared to the absurd versatility their spell-casting gives them.
Unrivaled metamagic control and the ability to increase CL and DC of their spells is also much better than anything any bloodline gives sorcerers. But even without those features, the simple potential to learn every spell in their list is far more powerful than anything any Sorcerer can do. And no. A few extra spells per day do not come even close to compensating for that.
Arcanists are not just broken. They are ridiculously broken.
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You missed Bloodline Spells and the New Arcana bloodline ability and the Human Favoured Class bonus. By level 20 you are looking at a Sorcerer with 29 more spells known than an Arcanis can prepare in a day.The arcanist can prepare as many spells per day as a sorcerer has knownNo it cant and keep saying that it can doesn't make it true.10th level Arcanist can prepare 9 Cantrips, 5 1st-level spells, 4 2nd, 3 3rd, 2 4th, and 1 5th. Look at the SECOND chart, the one BELOW the chart including the full level progression; that first chart is SPELL SLOTS PER DAY.
10th level Sorc knows... hey! 9 Cantrips, 5 1st-level spells, 4 2nd, 3 3rd, 2 4th, and 1 5th. Again, SECOND CHART. (This is of course without favored class bonuses from the races that can take the "learn one new spell of one level or more less than your highest level spell" option like Humans.)
Want to try that again?
I deliberately omitted the Favored Class bonus. I said that. Not every Sorc is Human, certainly none of mine, I hate playing Humans. (I personally don't block in the Favored Class bonuses by race though, so that FC is available to all races in my games, but that's a houserule.) I imagine a similar FC will be available for Arcanist when the full product is released.
I'll give you on the Bloodline spells though. Which Bloodline gets New Arcana? (I'm assuming Arcane but I've never played an Arcane sorc.) Not every Bloodline will have that ability.
Let me say this Andreww, I'm on your side as far as the power of the Arcanist. They're one of my favorite classes in this release, and I don't think they're broken. They give me everything I wanted out of a Wizard and nothing I didn't (like Prepared Casting).
I think in a world where Wizards and Sorcerers didn't exist, the Arcanist would be absolutely fine.
In a world where Wizards and Sorcerers do exist, it overshadows both of them for different reasons.
That's the problem, not that it's too "powerful."
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A +1DC and CL a handful of times per day doesnt come close to approaching what you can get out of the, admittedly few, bloodlines which are actually decent. The severe limit on spells prepared each day is a major brake on what the class can do in any particular day.
Arcanists don't have to worry about picking spells carefully any more than Wizards and Sorcerers do.
29 extra spells is hardly a handful. The Arcanist barely makes the grade as a controbuting arcane caster compared to a comparable level sorcerer or wizard.
Hah... 29, when? At 20th level when arcane casters are already godlike and having a versatile spell list is far mroe valuable than extra spells per day?
Sorcerers will have 1~4 more spells per day of their 2~3 highest level spells, which are the ones that really count. By 7th level it really doesn't matter if you have 5 1st level spells or 5000 of them.I too like the idea of the Arcanist, it's a simpler and more forgiving spell casting system than both Wizards and Sorcerers.
It's also superior to both classes is every significant way. Having an interesting casting style doesn't mean it is balanced.
I think in a world where Wizards and Sorcerers didn't exist, the Arcanist would be absolutely fine.
In a world where Wizards and Sorcerers do exist, it overshadows both of them for different reasons.
That's the problem, not that it's too "powerful."
I agree with this completely.
The Arcanist isn't more powerful on paper than the wizard or sorcerer. It's just... better. Occasionally that low number of spells "known per day" will have an impact, but most of the time it's just going to be better.
andreww: Where on earth do you get 29 extra spells per day? (Edit: ah, spells "known per day" - fine. Although that has got to be the most banned FCB in the game, ridiculously powerful. I *have* a human sorcerer and refuse to use it.)
I think in a world where Wizards and Sorcerers didn't exist, the Arcanist would be absolutely fine.
In a world where Wizards and Sorcerers do exist, it overshadows both of them for different reasons.
That's the problem, not that it's too "powerful."
That's a good way of putting it. If we didn't have Wizards and Sorcerers, it'd be an acceptable class , although it'd still be unbalanced because full casting is the most powerful class feature in the game. Especially prepared casting.
Now it completely obsoletes 2 classes. And not weak classes either, but two of the most powerful ones in the game. That's not sign of being balanced.
The arcanist can prepare as many spells per day as a sorcerer has knownNo it cant and keep saying that it can doesn't make it true.
The chart disagrees with you..
I am not including using a favored class point to get extra spells for a sorcerer.
10th level sorc spells known 9 5 4 3 2 1
10th level arcanist spells prepared 9 5 4 3 2 1
They look the same to me, and those numbers were copied and pasted, so it is not me making a typo.
The arcanist can prepare as many spells per day as a sorcerer has knownNo it cant and keep saying that it can doesn't make it true.The chart disagrees with you..
I am not including using a favored class point to get extra spells for a sorcerer.
10th level sorc spells known 9 5 4 3 2 1
10th level arcanist spells prepared 9 5 4 3 2 1
They look the same to me, and those numbers were copied and pasted, so it is not me making a typo.
He's adding in favored classes, bloodline spells, and some bloodline arcana thing I'm not familiar with.
They look the same to me, and those numbers were copied and pasted, so it is not me making a typo.
You do need to add the bloodline spells known for the comparison.
Honestly, before I saw the chart, I was expecting the Arcanist to be able to prepare only 1-2 spells per day per spell level, or something like "1/2 Level + Int" per day total, irrespective of spell level.
That would add quite a bit of flexibility as far as the highest spell levels go, but would perhaps leave only 1 spell at lower spell levels.
You missed Bloodline Spells and the New Arcana bloodline ability and the Human Favoured Class bonus. By level 20 you are looking at a Sorcerer with 29 more spells known than an Arcanis can prepare in a day.The arcanist can prepare as many spells per day as a sorcerer has knownNo it cant and keep saying that it can doesn't make it true.10th level Arcanist can prepare 9 Cantrips, 5 1st-level spells, 4 2nd, 3 3rd, 2 4th, and 1 5th. Look at the SECOND chart, the one BELOW the chart including the full level progression; that first chart is SPELL SLOTS PER DAY.
10th level Sorc knows... hey! 9 Cantrips, 5 1st-level spells, 4 2nd, 3 3rd, 2 4th, and 1 5th. Again, SECOND CHART. (This is of course without favored class bonuses from the races that can take the "learn one new spell of one level or more less than your highest level spell" option like Humans.)
Want to try that again?
I ignored the bloodline spells because you dont get to choose them, so they are not much of a factor, and not every race is human so you can't really include that(being human.
Arcanists completely obsolete Sorcerer, which are alreadya very powerful class. They also obsolete Wizards on 60% of levels (all even numbered levels and 19th level as well).
A class that manages to obsolete 2 full arcane casters (one of which is probably the most powerful class in the game) is definitely broken. Not having a familiar and limited uses of bloodline powers is a completely minor disadvantage compared to the absurd versatility their spell-casting gives them.
Unrivaled metamagic control and the ability to increase CL and DC of their spells is also much better than anything any bloodline gives sorcerers. But even without those features, the simple potential to learn every spell in their list is far more powerful than anything any Sorcerer can do. And no. A few extra spells per day do not come even close to compensating for that.
Arcanists are not just broken. They are ridiculously broken.
Obsolete the sorcerer maybe..The wizard, not so much..I would have to see that in play to believe it. I am not impress on paper from a PC standpoint, but as NPC I like them for the same reason I like sorcs as NPC's.
Obsolete the sorcerer maybe..The wizard, not so much..I would have to see that in play to believe it. I am not impress on paper from a PC standpoint, but as NPC I like them for the same reason I like sorcs as NPC's.
Ah, yes... Very clever Wizard player with great foresight can avoid being made completely obsolete during odd-numbered levels, at least.
On even numbered levels and anything beyond 17th level, Arcanists do overshadow Wizards too.
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@Lemmy - If we remove the blood focus, etc...and make this just bare bones "Wizard who can spontaneously cast" with the existing spells per day and progression, is that enough for you or not.
That would remove bloodlines on one side and schools on the other. Flavorwise I would say knowing how to spontaneously cast is the the school, and there is no bloodline because this is a trained, not inherent, ability.
Arcanists don't have to worry about picking spells carefully any more than Wizards and Sorcerers do.
I do think a player that knows what he is doing with regard to picking spells wont see a significant drop off, but he will still have to choose daily spells carefully. Either way I see the him doing better than he would with a sorcerer.
I want the arcanist to be able to prepare one less spell per day than it does, but I have already mentioned that. I will try to get some roll20 games going and have players fight against sorc, arcanist, and wizard of the same level and theme..
My guess is that the arcanist will be less effective as an NPC combat compared to the sorc and wizard at lower levels. It will come online around level 7. It will pass the sorc or wizard depending on how you play them around level 10, and be on par with the other around level 13. Once again playstyle is a factor.
As a PC it will surpass the sorcerer around level 7 IMHO, and start to challenge the wizard around the time it gets 7th level spells.
PS: This is all theorycrafting. :)
For Bloodline, take Arcane. Spend a blood point, have your weapon be your bonded object, cast extra spell, arcane bond goes away after 1 round/level. Spend another point at 9 to gain an additional spell prepared. It might not be as fun as any other bloodline, but it's available.
You missed Bloodline Spells and the New Arcana bloodline ability and the Human Favoured Class bonus. By level 20 you are looking at a Sorcerer with 29 more spells known than an Arcanis can prepare in a day.The arcanist can prepare as many spells per day as a sorcerer has knownNo it cant and keep saying that it can doesn't make it true.10th level Arcanist can prepare 9 Cantrips, 5 1st-level spells, 4 2nd, 3 3rd, 2 4th, and 1 5th. Look at the SECOND chart, the one BELOW the chart including the full level progression; that first chart is SPELL SLOTS PER DAY.
10th level Sorc knows... hey! 9 Cantrips, 5 1st-level spells, 4 2nd, 3 3rd, 2 4th, and 1 5th. Again, SECOND CHART. (This is of course without favored class bonuses from the races that can take the "learn one new spell of one level or more less than your highest level spell" option like Humans.)
Want to try that again?
The favor class bonus doesn't apply here as the only applies to the sorcerer. Now it's possible that they might add similar favored class bonus when the book. The feat expanded arcana as written would work as the class explicitly states that it does.
At best you blow all your feats on expanded arcana and get 20 extra prepared spell slots at 19th level and use the ultimate campaign rules to retrain those slots to any spell level below 9th. That would be a waste though since can swap out the spells every day. I could see taking it once maybe twice but not all your feats.
Change Blood Focus. Instead of spending a point for a temporary Sorcerer Bloodline ability (stuff like Claws is already a 1/round/Cha (3+ Cha rounds per day) deal, with this forcing you to spend 2 rounds to use it), spend a point to increase your ability with those Bloodline abilities. Increase caster level by 1 with (Sp/Su) Bloodline abilities, increase number of rounds by 1 for stuff measured in round/day or rounds/Cha (even granting 1 extra round when already at 0), stuff like that. This whole Standard action thing also sucks, as you are unable to do anything with your bloodline ability until level 2. Why even have it until then? You don't get the Arcana, so that doesn't help. Spells known from Bloodline doesn't kick in until 3rd. So your Blood Points go toward Arcane School spell DCs/CL instead. Boring.
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I ignored the bloodline spells because you dont get to choose them, so they are not much of a factor, and not every race is human so you can't really include that(being human.So if you ignore all of the good options for the Sorcerer then the Arcanist may overshadow it. That's a pretty terrible way to compare the two classes.
andreww you keep mentioning "New Arcana" and being a Human as some how the factor that gives the Sorcerer the edge.
Not all Sorcerer's are going to be Human and if your main arguement for Sorcerer being better is that they are Human you've already failed.
Not only that but what if an Arcanist has a similar Favored Class bonus?
"New Arcana" is also a small little case not all Sorcerer's take the same single bloodline. So to use it to determine that "All Sorcerer's that are Human AND have that one Bloodline are better." Even if that is true what about the rest?
The Arcanist has one less spell per day than a Sorcerer.
The Arcanist also has the same progression for Spells Prepared as a Sorcerer has for Spells Known. [When you add in the bloodline spells this gives the Sorcerer a boost of 6 spells known over the Arcanist.]
It is a fine line as to who is better. But i personally would take the Arcanist.
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@Lemmy - If we remove the blood focus, etc...and make this just bare bones "Wizard who can spontaneously cast" with the existing spells per day and progression, is that enough for you or not.
That would remove bloodlines on one side and schools on the other. Flavorwise I would say knowing how to spontaneously cast is the the school, and there is no bloodline because this is a trained, not inherent, ability.
The problem is that class features are not what make casters powerful. Much less arcane casters. Their spell casting is. Full spell-casting progression and access to uncountable spells is what makes Clerics and Wizards so powerful. Domains and Arcane Schools are just gravy.
The Arcanist could lose all his class features and it'd still completely obsolete Sorcerers. Quite possibly Wizards too.)
Hah... 29, when? At 20th level when arcane casters are already godlike and having a versatile spell list is far mroe valuable than extra spells per day?Number of spells a Human Arcane sorcerer knows over the number an Arcanist can prepare at each level ignoring feats:
(...)
This assumes a Human Arcane Sorcerer who also takes bonus level 0 spells which may not also be the case.
So, basically at 20th level, using the best favored class bonus possible (that is not available to all character, might I add) and counting extra cantrips? Really?
Now, reduce that list to just the top 3 highest spell levels. Because really, the ones bellow that barely matter. You'll have too many of them anyway, and they are unlikely to be actually useful in most encounters. For the number of spells to matter, Arcanists should have much fewer spells. About 2~3 less than they have. But that would make a boring class to play.
Instead of fusing two different casting systems, give Arcanists separat spelle slots for prepared and spontaneous casting or make it more similar to the Spellbinder archetype, and it'd keep its flavor and be far more balanced.
Something similar to a Sage-blooded Sorcerer with a couple prepared spell slots per spell level instead of Bloodline spells would be better balanced and still allow you to keep both spell casting styles. You could use your spontaneous slots for spells you want to spam or find more universally useful and save the prepared slots for more situational spells.
It'd probably still be better than Sorcerers, but not completely obsolete them.
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Granted I have only briefly read over the Arcanist. Perhaps this has been mentioned up thread, but I was thinking this class might be good for a novice player.
I think what the arcanist does is pick what spells he wants to study and learn for the day. Then throughout the day, he has limited number of spontaneous spell slots, and he choose to cast from the spells he has prepared.
I think it would be easier to explain to a new player, that your character memorizes these spells for the day, and you get to cast 4 1st level spells to cast, and you get to pick from the 3 first level spells your character memorized in the morning.
To me the arcanist fits the "Harry potter" niche, someone born with the spark of magic in their blood, but then studies and trains to refine their inborn talent.
I find the class interesting.
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Is it more versatile than existing casters? Yes, but in ways that increase fun and usefulness. Is it more powerful? Not really, because you still have similar numbers of spells known and cast. You just have slightly more flexibility with them.
How is being able to change your spell list every day and then cast them in any combination you want just "slightly more versatility"
It's a HUGE increase in versatility. One beyond anything any other caster can do.
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Now, reduce that list to just the top 3 highest spell levels. Because really, the ones bellow that barely matter.This really suggests that you have little idea how useful spells remain at all levels. Haste, Communal Resist Energy, Greater Invisibility, Teleport, Liberating Command and a whole host of low level spells remain entirely useful even in level 15+ play.
How kind of you to purposely not include the next sentence I added:
You'll have too many of them anyway, and they are unlikely to be actually useful in most encounters.
Doesn't really matter if you have 60 or 600 low level spells (or if you want to compare Arcanists and Sorcerers, 5 or 6). You're unlikely to use all of them anyway. Even the ones that remain powerful through the upper levels are not likely to be cast more than once or twice in an encounter.
The bulk of an arcane caster's power is in their top 3 spell levels. The lower level spells are still useful, of course, but having 1~2 extra casting of them doesn't even compare to being able to pick your spell list every day and then cast your spells in any combination you want.
Emphatically Not.
In fact I consider it worse than both Wizard and Sorcerer most of the time.
Supporting argument? Why is it worse than the wizard and sorcerer most of the time?