Goblin Squad Member
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Each character can have one role feature active at any time, and changing role features takes enough time that it usually won't be done in the middle of combat. Role features are exclusive; you won't be able to have a role feature from the Fighter role active at the same time as a role feature from the Rogue role, for example.I'm puzzled by this contradiction or is a duplicate meaning?Repeated for clarity. Essentially: "You can only have one active at a time, which certainly means you can't have two active at a time." :)
The Role feature seems to be the evolution of the "Class feature slot" that was talked about in the "I put a spell on you" blog.Sometimes we say class because our roles are named the same as tabletop's classes, and we forget. But the official term is "role" rather than "class" even if we're not consistent in the usage.
AvenaOats is correct about the rationale for using the term role instead of class.
Gotcha. Thank you for the clarification. Now I just have to get used to saying role instead of class too. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Can't wait for the cleric/wizard roles. Like what I see for the fighter/rogue roles though. Nice job GW.And the parade of new avatars continues :) Nice choice.
I'm holding out for Goblinworks forums with in-game PFO avatar choices *whistles*.
@Imbicatus: You just have to roll with it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My spreadsheet senses are tingling...
Would the bonus damages be a flat numerical increase to base damage, a flat numerical increase to damage factor, a percentage increase to one of the above, a flat amount of damage added to the total after other calculations, a percentage of the total after other calculations are done, or will it have its own base damage, damage factor, and damage resistance?
At the very least we already have an example of weapon specialization that looks additive to base damage.
Some of the numbers we're currently testing for a 4th level generic, example fighter are:650 HP
Reflex 64 (Before armor penalty, includes shield and +50 from T1 armor)
Longsword +17 attack and 56 base damage (includes keywords and specialization bonus); 1.4 damage factor on average, 20 Stamina attackAnd with armors equivalent to the weapon that's:
Light: 12 physical resistance, no Reflex penalty
Medium: 24 physical resistance, -10 Reflex
Heavy: 36 physical resistance, -20 Reflex
Presumably "equivalent" means the same number of keywords.
Heavy armor has 27 base physical resistance available to anyone that can equip it (i.e., heavy armor proficiency), even someone that doesn't have an applicable armor passive feat equipped, and adds 3 per keyword (12 per major keyword) shared between the armor and the wearer's armor passive feat (max of 36 from 4 minor and 2 major keywords). Consumables are likely to not increase that further, rather providing additional damage reduction via another method (to keep the highest base resistance within the realm of something that a newer player and weaker monsters can reasonably affect to a small degree).So 63 is likely to be the max possible base resistance.
36 physical resistance on heavy armor means 3 minor keywords. Likely 1 comes from the armor passive feat and 2 from the armor itself.
For weapons, these keywords are activated by individual attacks. The player's first slash attack for the longsword may only look for the "Slashing" keyword, but as it is upgraded, it gains further keywords common to longswords. For each keyword shared by the attack and the wielded weapon, the attack treats the weapon's Base Damage as higher (+5 for most keywords, +20 for "Masterwork" and for other high-Tier keywords).
A longsword has 40 base damage + 5 per minor keyword + 20 per major keyword.
So putting it all together:
*the example level 4 fighter had 56 base damage with a longsword that would have 3 minor keywords. Those 3 minor keywords would bring him up to 55 base damage. The extra 1 would be from his weapon specialization.
So at lower levels of weapon specialization, it appears to be +1 base damage.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Seems like this would be a good time to mention any potential 'withdraw' manuever or feature? Or will the finer points of combat be covered in more detail later on?
See under "Mobility". Presumably these are rogue feats that anyone can slot (at the cost of losing dedication bonus).
In order to facilitate getting away, Rogues gain easy access to feats that grant Evades: extremely fast runs or jumps backwards that do not provoke Opportunity. These make it very easy for a Rogue to extricate himself from melee
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Goblin Squad Member
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Seems like this would be a good time to mention any potential 'withdraw' manuever or feature? Or will the finer points of combat be covered in more detail later on?
Well, the blog did mention evades for the Rogue role. I think other roles will also have some movement abilities that would be equivalent, but not necessarily the same as those described. The Evade ability seems geared to get you away from a place NOW. It looks like it is a combination of evasion, defensive roll, and a double move from TT at once. I can think of fighters getting a withdrawal skill that would let them retreat with higher defenses or to no grant opportunity while moving. Wizards will be able to get a dimension door spell to pop away if they are getting knifed in the back, while clerics could cast sanctuary to become unattackable while they run away or cast a heal.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Imbicatus, I would agree that all classes should get some method of escape; however, the way the blog said "Rogues gain easy access to feats that grant Evades" makes me think that they'll have the most/most useful out of all of the roles, which I am personally okay with. Nice examples for possible mechanics for the other classes.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So all opportunity attacks seem passive since the Master of Opportunity feats are. I take it that means someone doing the twitch strafe dance in melee or circle kiting with a bow are going to get their faces opportunitied?
Are we going to have easy access to a withdraw/5 foot step? Other contemporary games have shift+move or double tap a direction to evade roll; is the PFO version of that going to be a once-a-round chance to reposition out of melee range that doesn't prompt opportunity?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I seem to recall fighter feats from the guidebook that allow attacks of opportunity even when they normally wouldn't happen. Are those feats going to be trainable also?
After all there are lots of opportunities, but if there aren't you can make them.
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In a kids MMO called Wizards 101 in the pet area, there are two shops run by boys and by girls to buy your pet supplies located on the east and west side of the village square. The shops in the pet area are called East End Boys and West End Girls.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Given this information can anyone think of any valid reason to NOT train stealth and perception to the max?
Is anyone with even two functioning brain cells going to go out wandering in a pvp game knowing there enemy can see them long before they can see the enemy?
If there is no valid reason and everyone will train them then this is nothing more then a timesink that achieves no reasonable purpose in the game other then to soak cash from the palyerbase and could be removed, thereby saving development time for better things.
Given this information can anyone think of any valid reason to NOT train stealth and perception to the max?
Because stealth is a useless waste of skill points for anyone at anytime, as I've pointed out several times now...
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Given this information can anyone think of any valid reason to NOT train stealth and perception to the max?
Is anyone with even two functioning brain cells going to go out wandering in a pvp game knowing there enemy can see them long before they can see the enemy?
If there is no valid reason and everyone will train them then this is nothing more then a timesink that achieves no reasonable purpose in the game other then to soak cash from the palyerbase and could be removed, thereby saving development time for better things.
Opportunity cost: Training stealth and perception comes at the cost of NOT training other skills. I doubt that other skills will be such that none of them are better than going from +200 to +220 perception.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Given this information can anyone think of any valid reason to NOT train stealth and perception to the max?
Is anyone with even two functioning brain cells going to go out wandering in a pvp game knowing there enemy can see them long before they can see the enemy?
If there is no valid reason and everyone will train them then this is nothing more then a timesink that achieves no reasonable purpose in the game other then to soak cash from the palyerbase and could be removed, thereby saving development time for better things.
In order to be at all balanced stealth and perception need to take up a portion of your build to be at all effective and heavily nerfed if it's not a class skill for the class your role bonus is in / if you have an armor penalty against it.
Otherwise I agree. Absolutely everyone will take it. It's a VERY valuable skill in an Open World game with PvP. I was slaughtering people 5 levels higher than me un-twinked on my scoundrel in SWTOR.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Given this information can anyone think of any valid reason to NOT train stealth and perception to the max?
Is anyone with even two functioning brain cells going to go out wandering in a pvp game knowing there enemy can see them long before they can see the enemy?
If there is no valid reason and everyone will train them then this is nothing more then a timesink that achieves no reasonable purpose in the game other then to soak cash from the palyerbase and could be removed, thereby saving development time for better things.
Because fighters will be investing their experience points in swordplay, two-handed weapon combat, heavy weapons, polearms, bowmanship, crossbows, short bows, long bows, missile weapon accuracy, quick draw, shields, shield block, shield smash, testudo, light armor, medium armor, heavy armor, horsemanship, mounted combat, spell reflect, poison resistance, combat maneuvers, damage modifiers, resists, dodges, parry, repost, deflect, and any number of other fighter based skills allowing the fighter to complete the fighter skill tree.
That's just for fighters. Same eventually for wizards, sorcerers, barbarians...you get the idea. Sure, everyone "could" train stealth and perception, have you ever met a stealthy barbarian? (Maybe one or two.)
That's why a classless system is so much fun to build. Go ahead and waste your time and experience points on stealth and a wizard will hit you with a fireball. Invest your time in perception and a longbowman will stick you in the eye from 100 yards. It's all a trade off.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The rogue skill sounds like it will be OP. In PvP you target healers and AoE damage dealers first, normally. Which means no one will be targeting the rogue. Assuming there will be poison in the game, the rogue will become an insanely powerful single target damage dealer and not only when striking from stealth. I don't mind high damage when the strike comes from stealth, that's fine. But the ability to pile it on without regard for actual positioning or tactics as long as someone doesn't drop everything to deal with you will be too powerful. And for the record, I like playing rogues and I honestly want to see this scaled back. This is the sort of thing that sounds logical but plays extremely poorly.
Counter Rogues! Rouges that sneak around sneak-attacking anyone poking their healers.
Anyways, the reason why you take down healers and AOE dudes is due to their damage potential. If a rogue is strong enough to merit a threat, people will deal with it or die.
Also, a single fighter should be able to hold off two or more rogues himself, and sneak attack only works on targets not looking at you. So if the the healer looks at you, you switch to a new target. If the AOE dude looks at you, you die.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Rogue sound terrible in a head to head fight, and freaking awesome if played right in a group fight. I can see it now. Two rogues and a ranger ambush three non-rogues. The ranger sneaks ahead and the two rogues sneak behind the ranger opens fire on the softest target while the rogues move in closer. The over zealous melee classes go rushing at the ranger and as soon as they do the rogues pop out and start sneak attacking the already damaged squishy they left behind. Now it's two on three and the melee's are closer to the ranger but if they don't focus on the rogues they'll do more damage than a raging barbarian. No matter what choice they make, this fight is over if the rogues and ranger are skilled.
The great part is this scenario isn't that unlikely. Stealth often gives the ability to plan and mentally prepare for a fight before it happens. If these are defenders coming to stop an outpost raid, scouts that found harvesters extracting a gusher etc. this is a very realistic scenario.
If they found that same party out fighting an escalation they can damn the planning and just jump them mid-fight for an easy victory.
Note: But if the party had a stealther of their own, that fight would end very differently. Which is another reason why stealthers rock.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Assuming there will be poison in the game, the rogue will become an insanely powerful single target damage dealer
If poisons are powerful, poison user will be powerful. I'd think that would favor fighters and rangers more than rogues, actually.
But the ability to pile it on without regard for actual positioning or tactics as long as someone doesn't drop everything to deal with you will be too powerful.
umm... you might pile it on if the foe has no "regards for positioning and tactics", but vs normal people a rogue just standing there will go down pretty quickly. Light armor, low hp and targeted by everyone means only positioning and tactics will keep you alive.
Golnor: I doubt a fighter can hold off two rogues, as he can only target one at a time. Then again, 2 vs 1 is always crap odds.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Given this information can anyone think of any valid reason to NOT train stealth and perception to the max?
Is anyone with even two functioning brain cells going to go out wandering in a pvp game knowing there enemy can see them long before they can see the enemy?
If there is no valid reason and everyone will train them then this is nothing more then a timesink that achieves no reasonable purpose in the game other then to soak cash from the palyerbase and could be removed, thereby saving development time for better things.
I feel the same way. I'd really like to see not just passive feats like perception and stealth prowess, but a system where everything your character is would have to be slotted. That would be more meaningful imo.
It wouldn't be that hard to implement. Just some passive feat slots on the character sheet and lots of choices to choose from. Like the choice which class skills to train in TT, but with more hue, flavor and taste.
Edit: It would even bring more flavor to the dedication system imo.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If I am investing in heavy armor, or even medium, and these encumbrances negate stealth, then the armored fighters would be quite unlikely to invest in stealth until they decided that being well armored does not respond to a necessary context.
More generally if the other roles have enough discrete skills to train stealth will become a real option only for the old vet who is already where he wants to be in everything else.
And yes, serious Barbarians should be very interested in being able to be stealthy.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If I am investing in heavy armor, or even medium, and these encumbrances negate stealth, then the armored fighters would be quite unlikely to invest in stealth until they decided that being well armored does not respond to a necessary context.
More generally if the other roles have enough discrete skills to train stealth will become a real option only for the old vet who is already where he wants to be in everything else.
And yes, serious Barbarians should be very interested in being able to be stealthy.
Barbarian/Rogue is my favorite class combo hands down. After playing it for so long I've decided to branch out...to Ranger/Rogue.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't know how good the dedication bonus is going to be, but I can see a huge benefit to a rogue mobility by including a fighter-role charge ability with a rogue evade ability to recreate a spring-attack. use stealth to close within you charge range, then run in for an alpha strike boosted by your passive slots that enhance attacks against flat-footed enemies, and then evade to restealth and try again.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't know how good the dedication bonus is going to be, but I can see a huge benefit to a rogue mobility by including a fighter-role charge ability with a rogue evade ability to recreate a spring-attack. use stealth to close within you charge range, then run in for an alpha strike boosted by your passive slots that enhance attacks against flat-footed enemies, and then evade to restealth and try again.
I hate to think of it if some skills became a norm for certain roles. For example being an efficient fighter means you have to have charge or in order to get the dedication bonus meaning that all those with a fighter dedication bonus are pretty similar in playstyle.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hopefully, taking damage will break stealth entirely. That and potential spells like Faerie Fire or Glitterdust. With simple additions such as that, then the old concept of Travel With a Group becomes a highlight. The Ranger would make a solid archetype of a stealth-breaker. High perception with a bow and arrow, one quick shot can alert the rest of the group to danger and possibly oust that rogue. The spells above could be a way to do so if you did not wish to inflict damage for whatever reason - or needed to mark multiple targets for your allies at once. Perception, rather logically so, becomes a very good trait for Ranged-focused characters to pursue. Melee types only need worry about it if they go out solo a lot.
When choose your next skill to spend EXP on, do you level perception to keep me and my kin further away from you, or do you increase a skill directly affecting your profession (crafting, weapons, ect.) and become a better "insert profession"? Oh decisions, decisions... :-)
Your absolutely right, but that ranger has dedicated his "life" to leveling those skills (perception and bow) as that is his play style and character's life style. He would then be a benefit to his group, or even get hired for that specific purpose by people who choose NOT to follow that path so that they could be better gathers or merchants or whatnot. That is what I was getting at. It all boils down to a choice. Do you (weather as a character concept or by a perceived need) level perception and be good at detecting ambushes and other hidden "objects" or do you follow a different path and do well there? Or a 3rd "path" is to do both and fall behind compared to those who focus their training. Neither of these 3 are "better" then the others, simply focused and specialized differently. That is like saying a sword smith is better than an armor smith. Comparing apples and Mithril?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would rather the stealther's stance be maintained when taking damage, and instead have the person temporarily "flare up". Maybe decrease his total Stealth skill by a percentage based on the damage taken for 1 second or less. That way the character can be pointed out by the person specializing in ousting stealthers and maybe even attacked by another person if they're quick enough, but the stealther doesn't lose all the benefits from stealth; he'll become untargetable again shortly by the people who don't have a good enough Perception to see him, and he can back up to try and get out of the archer's perception range. Granted, in that case it might be better for them to exit stealth, but I'd like that to be a choice made by the player instead of an automatic thing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Can you think of a valid reason NOT to train hit points or saving throws? It's about the training choices one has to make.Given this information can anyone think of any valid reason to NOT train stealth and perception to the max?
Yes, if one major choice is shown it seems obvious that everyone would pursue that choice (present) but if a whole load of opportunity choices occur later and each player is yet to make a single choice it becomes much less obvious (future). And in fact te range of choices makes each choice made by each player more specific.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yes, if one major choice is shown it seems obvious that everyone would pursue that choice (present) but if a whole load of opportunity choices occur later and each player is yet to make a single choice it becomes much less obvious (future). And in fact te range of choices makes each choice made by each player more specific.Given this information can anyone think of any valid reason to NOT train stealth and perception to the max?Can you think of a valid reason NOT to train hit points or saving throws? It's about the training choices one has to make.
Elsewhere, didn't Cheney say that someone roled as a fighter would have more hp than the same character with another role? So stealth might just work better for characters in the rogue roles, and not as well for characters in other roles. Perception I think might work across all roles.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Elsewhere, didn't Cheney say that someone roled as a fighter would have more hp than the same character with another role? So stealth might just work better for characters in the rogue roles, and not as well for characters in other roles. Perception I think might work across all roles.Yes, if one major choice is shown it seems obvious that everyone would pursue that choice (present) but if a whole load of opportunity choices occur later and each player is yet to make a single choice it becomes much less obvious (future). And in fact te range of choices makes each choice made by each player more specific.Given this information can anyone think of any valid reason to NOT train stealth and perception to the max?Can you think of a valid reason NOT to train hit points or saving throws? It's about the training choices one has to make.
Yeah I think that's where this is headed. The "basic" stealth that Qallz is moaning about is how it works without the Rogue feats slotted. Rogue feats probably buff stealth and give attacks designed to come out stealth. They did say Rogue wasn't done yet and they were testing it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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One thing I want to add is that in most games, and I suspect PFO not to be any different, Stealth is a huge advantage. Just like having a high perception is needed to offset the advantage of stealth. However, consider that while it is powerful and useful, they have weaknesses as well. Normally lightly armored, lower HP, and not much good out of stealth. Most games have the rogue as a burst DPS type, from stealth they drop you 1/2 or more HP then slowly take the rest. Or in Wow, they do enough damage that a skilled rogue can keep you stunned while they take your health.
Yes rogues are more likely to target healers and mages, but that is where their strengths lie. In wow, the Hunter class was the Anti rogue class, and in TT Ranger is very close to that. The versatility that a ranger brings to the battlefield, near fighter like skills and HP, heavier armor than rogues, but stealth and perception similar to rogues. They also excel at both ranged and duel melee combat, where as most rogues are only deadly if they can get to you in melee.
Mages are known for the power they weild, but the lack of any combat skill (weapons and armor I mean) makes them weak (often known as glass cannons)
The point I am making is that just because magic is the biggest AOE DPS in the game, doesn't make everyone be a mage. Just because Stealth gives you more control over when and where you enter into combat doesn't make everyone a rogue. each role has strengths and has weaknesses. Each player will choose which fits his/her preferred play style or character concept.
Sure there will be "Min/Max" ers but I don't think they will be the majority. Even if they are, I doubt they will be able to come up with a singular build that is universal and OP compared to any other build.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't think any mechanic that has not even been presented as fully playable yet can be labeled OP or essential. Especially when we don't have any information on the other roles and powers that will be available in-game to compare. Imho, Goblinworks is going to use the ftr and rogue archetypes to make the first runs at testing the whole combat system, then work off that. Next they'll add an arcane bozo 'cause they seem to be pretty far along on those mechanics. After playing around with the basic damage dealers they can form a better idea of how healing will balance in the scheme of things. You know, Divine Magic. Maybe they can let the poor clown working on that out of the broom closet and write a dev blog.
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Goblin Squad Member
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While I somewhat agree there are two things that will determine if stealth is essential.
1. What are the downsides of taking it?
2. What alternatives could you take in it's place?
As described, it will be absolutely essential to everyone unless it lowers your effectiveness in other ares / takes up part of your character's build. Maybe not right away, but at a certain point it turns into a very valuable hole in your character sheet. So does perception.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As described, it will be absolutely essential to everyone unless it lowers your effectiveness in other ares / takes up part of your character's build. Maybe not right away, but at a certain point it turns into a very valuable hole in your character sheet. So does perception.
I think all passive skills will be important in that way. Anything that doesn't take up limited slot space is going to be beneficial just because it's always on.
I'd expect character roles and gear to modify many passives. The fighter role might decrease total stealth. Lighter armors might not decrease it so much, which might drive some fighters to use light-mid weight armors based on the task at hand.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yeah, I'd like to know what is the 'normal' (encounter?) distance and if there is still a 'role off' between the two scores (0-300) once the stealth/perception distance threshold is reached. What I mean is if a veteran (max stealth) meets a newbie (minimum perception) does he get to 10 yards (assuming 'normal distance' 100 yards) and then there is a role between the two scores? So the vet in this instance will close the rest of the way almost every time but the newb could get lucky? This would jibe with the idea of perception vs. disguise, spellcraft vs. visible magic effects, etc.
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Goblin Squad Member
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No skill not being on your character should create a big hole. If that happens it means that skill is broken. Choosing skills should be like standing at the entrance to a smorgasbord looking at the selection and choosing one of these, a little of that one of those over there, a bowl of this weird green stuff, a sprinkle of that and this too. When you sit down you have a great meal, even though another diner chose a completely different assortment of food, one plate is not better than the other. Different? Yes. Better? Absolutely not.
Different because the person making the choice does so because that is what he/she wants. It should not always render the other person's choice inferior.
If stealth is a skill that creates a superior pile of food, and all other piles of food become inferior by default...it is not the other food at fault, it is the overpowering stealth on the first guy's plate. Balance is essential. This will be tweaked in testing and stealth will only seem OP when used correctly. Same for perception.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I don't know how good the dedication bonus is going to be, but I can see a huge benefit to a rogue mobility by including a fighter-role charge ability with a rogue evade ability to recreate a spring-attack. use stealth to close within you charge range, then run in for an alpha strike boosted by your passive slots that enhance attacks against flat-footed enemies, and then evade to restealth and try again.I hate to think of it if some skills became a norm for certain roles. For example being an efficient fighter means you have to have charge or in order to get the dedication bonus meaning that all those with a fighter dedication bonus are pretty similar in playstyle.
I don't think that a sword and board playstyle is similar at all to a polearm playstyle or two-weapon playstyle or a two-shield playstyle.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't think that a sword and board playstyle is similar at all to a polearm playstyle or two-weapon playstyle or a two-shield playstyle.I don't know how good the dedication bonus is going to be, but I can see a huge benefit to a rogue mobility by including a fighter-role charge ability with a rogue evade ability to recreate a spring-attack. use stealth to close within you charge range, then run in for an alpha strike boosted by your passive slots that enhance attacks against flat-footed enemies, and then evade to restealth and try again.I hate to think of it if some skills became a norm for certain roles. For example being an efficient fighter means you have to have charge or in order to get the dedication bonus meaning that all those with a fighter dedication bonus are pretty similar in playstyle.
I'm hoping for a nice quarter staff fighter who also knows some cantrips to throw out a little bit of ranged damage without using a bow. probably not going to happen though based on previous dev comments.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I'm hoping for a nice quarter staff fighter who also knows some cantrips to throw out a little bit of ranged damage without using a bow. probably not going to happen though based on previous dev comments.I don't think that a sword and board playstyle is similar at all to a polearm playstyle or two-weapon playstyle or a two-shield playstyle.I don't know how good the dedication bonus is going to be, but I can see a huge benefit to a rogue mobility by including a fighter-role charge ability with a rogue evade ability to recreate a spring-attack. use stealth to close within you charge range, then run in for an alpha strike boosted by your passive slots that enhance attacks against flat-footed enemies, and then evade to restealth and try again.I hate to think of it if some skills became a norm for certain roles. For example being an efficient fighter means you have to have charge or in order to get the dedication bonus meaning that all those with a fighter dedication bonus are pretty similar in playstyle.
That actually sounds very much like a wizard or wizard/fighter hybrid.
I hope that there exist choices that allow a wizard to be effective with a quarterstaff as a melee combatant, without losing their dedication bonus. (Or perhaps AS a possible dedication bonus).
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Goblin Squad Member
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Elsewhere, didn't Cheney say that someone roled as a fighter would have more hp than the same character with another role? So stealth might just work better for characters in the rogue roles, and not as well for characters in other roles. Perception I think might work across all roles.Yes, if one major choice is shown it seems obvious that everyone would pursue that choice (present) but if a whole load of opportunity choices occur later and each player is yet to make a single choice it becomes much less obvious (future). And in fact te range of choices makes each choice made by each player more specific.Given this information can anyone think of any valid reason to NOT train stealth and perception to the max?Can you think of a valid reason NOT to train hit points or saving throws? It's about the training choices one has to make.
That's my take-home. Seems to me stealth is going to be more effective investment when conditions of combat are more ad hoc, given other investment in skill-training and organized, groups will have at least one rogue to spot stealth and alert?! Also what avari3 said in reply. On my smart phone so need to re-read te blog and Stephen's response again, to be sure.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If I'm understanding this correctly, a Sneak Attack can be initiated even after combat has begun, but only if the Rogue is not currently targeted by the opponent he/she is looking to attack?
A question about "Befuddling Strike grants extra stacks of the Oblivious debuff (a penalty to attack and Perception)."
Is Oblivious a target lock breaking debuff?
Again, does this work even after combat has been initiated? The debuff to the Perception will make it easier for the Rogue to break the target lock, and set up for another sneak attack?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hopefully, taking damage will break stealth entirely. That and potential spells like Faerie Fire or Glitterdust. With simple additions such as that, then the old concept of Travel With a Group becomes a highlight. The Ranger would make a solid archetype of a stealth-breaker. High perception with a bow and arrow, one quick shot can alert the rest of the group to danger and possibly oust that rogue. The spells above could be a way to do so if you did not wish to inflict damage for whatever reason - or needed to mark multiple targets for your allies at once. Perception, rather logically so, becomes a very good trait for Ranged-focused characters to pursue. Melee types only need worry about it if they go out solo a lot.
Taking damage shouldn't break stealth--taking actions that make you more detectable, should make you more detectable. Avoiding detection, and detecting danger, are ongoing efforts, not states.
We could have a rich system where trying to use stealth presents this huge reward, possibly getting the drop on a group and winning in a few strokes...unless the other group's veteran warrior-cleric, who is keenly perceptive, quietly alerts the group that she's about to cast Hold Person on the idiots sneaking up on them from the creek bed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Given this information can anyone think of any valid reason to NOT train stealth and perception to the max?
Is anyone with even two functioning brain cells going to go out wandering in a pvp game knowing there enemy can see them long before they can see the enemy?
If there is no valid reason and everyone will train them then this is nothing more then a timesink that achieves no reasonable purpose in the game other then to soak cash from the palyerbase and could be removed, thereby saving development time for better things.
Well Summer, one valid reason is that people above your "two brain cell" threshold may be able to do analysis, and work out implications.
Just picture your group, where everyone is stealth/perception maxed, meeting my group, where we have one person with maxed perception, and another who has honed their martial prowess to a razor edge, another who has arcane powers of destruction crackling at their fingertips, and so on. God you're going to get abused.
I'm guessing you're going to be taking a lot of dirtnaps, Summer :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Mbando, the point Summer's making is that, as your group isn't stealthed, he won't be taking any dirtnaps from those characters, because he will always see them first and can gauge them and leave them alone if they seem like too much of a threat. Or, if he really wants to kill them, he can call up his buddies and tail your group while stealthed. Having max perception is only half the equation; if you don't also stealth, you will always be spotted first. It then follows that the only time you'll be fighting stealthed characters is when those characters are confident in their ability to beat you.
I like the idea of most groups bringing along some stealthed bodyguards to accompany the non-stealth members. The enemies would gauge them from afar, move closer into the spotting range for max perception, and then have to do some quick and likely chaotic reevaluation when the stealthed guards start appearing for them. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Mbando, the point Summer's making is that, as your group isn't stealthed, he won't be taking any dirtnaps from those characters, because he will always see them first and can gauge them and leave them alone if they seem like too much of a threat.
Except when he doesn't see them, because my party's scouting element already saw them.
Shane, this is really basic combined arms/task organization. Combining arms/task organizing is a huge force multiplier--the mechanic of roles will give us plenty of ways to skin that cat. I can certainly imagine there would be some constrained cases where a homogeneously maxed force is optimal--maybe an all-paladin outsider-bane force would wail on an escalation event from one of the lower planes. But they'd likely have their butts handed to them by a mixed force that has complementary/synergistic power.
Anyways, Summer's going to be taking lots, I mean a lot, of dirt naps.