So DPR Check, let's see what we can do and if this is to high, to low, or just right.
20 PB, 2 traits, 10th level. Try and break it.
Would we be comparing this to a rouge and a ranger of the same levels?
what would have been interesting is if the Slayer got sneak attack damage progression for his favored enemies.
Then the idea of a Demon Slayer, for example, would be very realized. The slayer would have a few enemy types that he or she hit really really hard.
Inquisitors can already get double bane (4d6) and they can choose the type when they activate it. Attach this to favored enemy, and you can justify the higher damage due to the limited choices.
Just a thought.
Though I should say, that I am biased a bit against sneak attack.... it is very rarely worth doing, and the fact that rogues already fall behind standard rangers in terms of offensive output metes that out.
I expect the Slayer to also fall behind the standard ranger in this regard, and since they lose companion and spells, they are really going to struggle to justify their existence.
Maybe Sneak Attack need to become a Combat Maneuver with some classes being better at it.
I think I would like to add my voice to the crowd that would like to see a combat style slayer talent or something similar.
Maybe Sneak Attack need to become a Combat Maneuver with some classes being better at it.
I think that the condition simply needs to change from class to class.
For a sneaky rogue.. target must be denied dex or he must be flanking.For an Investigator, he has to use knowledge to identify and only gets a limited number per day (equal to the same number of Bombs an alchemist would get based on the investigator's reduced progression)
For the Slayer he only gets this damage on his focused target.
This would all make sense to me, keep the classes more unique, and fit the flavor better.
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Maybe Sneak Attack need to become a Combat Maneuver with some classes being better at it.I think that the condition simply needs to change from class to class.
For a sneaky rogue.. target must be denied dex or he must be flanking.For an Investigator, he has to use knowledge to identify and only gets a limited number per day (equal to the same number of Bombs an alchemist would get based on the investigator's reduced progression)
For the Slayer he only gets this damage on his focused target.
This would all make sense to me, keep the classes more unique, and fit the flavor better.
That implies a Slayer could just walk up to a favored target and stab him for sneak attack.
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Just wanted to quickly post that I'm reading all of this thread next, but may not get a chance to post a detailed reply to various issues before I head home today.
Just wanted to quickly post that I'm reading all of this thread next, but may not get a chance to post a detailed reply to various issues before I head home today.
Thats cool. We appreciate your hard work.
That implies a Slayer could just walk up to a favored target and stab him for sneak attack.Maybe Sneak Attack need to become a Combat Maneuver with some classes being better at it.I think that the condition simply needs to change from class to class.
For a sneaky rogue.. target must be denied dex or he must be flanking.For an Investigator, he has to use knowledge to identify and only gets a limited number per day (equal to the same number of Bombs an alchemist would get based on the investigator's reduced progression)
For the Slayer he only gets this damage on his focused target.
This would all make sense to me, keep the classes more unique, and fit the flavor better.
Yes, yes it does.
There would probably have to be a limited usage (x/day sort of thing) but then it is basically a hopped up challenge ability.The problem with sneak attack, is that as soon as you have it... welcome to being a rogue. Your build and your feat choices are now permanently marred by sneak attack. And if you don't make those investments, you lose half of your class.
Sneak Attack is the worst sort of pigeonholing.
It becomes a task, where you have to wrap your build around it, and focus all of your system mastery trying to support it. It is not a class feature in the proper sense.
Think of it this way: If you were playing a standard sort of beast totem barbarian or a shield bashing fighter or a bow-shooting ranger and I suddenly, as your GM, just gave you full Sneak Attack. How big would that impact be? Not very. You may have a flanking partner, but that is just like saying "Build X" is really good as long as the wizard casts "spell Y" on me at the start of every combat.
Players usually want to be the masters of their own destiny, and that sounds appropriate to me. What if a barbarian got all his rage powers, but needed a Skald to enrage him or a caster to cast rage on him?
That is the sort of problem that sneak attack is, and unfortunately it is seen by the PDT as some really powerful major class feature. And it CAN be with the right build. The problem here is that Rage is ALWAYS good. Bonus feats are ALWAYS good. Spells are ALWAYS good. Sneak Attack has the potential to be good, but on its own it amounts to almost nothing.
And this stems from its all-or-nothing nature. You can spend 3-4 feats trying to get this thing to function, or you can hope it comes up once in a while and treat it as a totally secondary thing. Either way it doesn't add up to a major class feature.
Jason edited the sticky post at the top of this thread to address the redundant sneak attack sections and the change to the HD type.
Quarry states that the creature chosen must be of your favored enemy type. Is it actually a creature you have Favored Target active on? Is it any creature? If it's one you have Favored Target active on, does it end if you change favored targets?
* It has to be a creature you've selected as your favored target.
* As you get quarry at 14th, and by that time you can maintain three favored targets at once, I think it's fair to require you to maintain that quarry as a favored target in order to retain the quarry bonus.On the slightly negative side, the talent list seems kind of...short. I expect that will change later, but I wanted to mention it, especially after seeing that the investigator can choose most of the alchemist discoveries and all of the basic rogue talents as well!
I definitely want to add to the list of slayer talents, and I welcome cool suggestions for them. :)
Complaint: Why does the investigator gain access to all rogue talents while the slayer doesn't? That just doesn't seem right.
Because the investigator is more of a rogue than the slayer is, and the slayer is more focused on killing than dodging traps, learning minor magic, and other common rogue stereotype abilities. (A more trap-apt slayer archetype could be a thing, or even as a slayer talent.)
I am wondering what does it mean the slayer can knock the target unconscious for 1d4 hours...can it be awakened like fallen to a sleep spell? if not, why 1d4 hours while paralyze has just 1d6 rounds, seeing that the former would be a stronger version of the latter.
It means "it's unconscious for 1d4 hours and can't wake up on its own until this time has passed." As to why 1d4 hours instead of 1d6 rounds of paralysis, it would be nice if the slayer could KO an opponent and drag him back to jail, or the evil temple, or whatever.
Quick question on this: is the Slayer's Sneak Attack meant to not have the remaining weaknesses of Sneak Attack? I mean to say, does it still work on creatures normally immune to precision damage due to the mix with ranger or does it work like normal?
Sneak attack is normal sneak attack (and is therefore "precision damage") and is subject to immunity-to-precision-damage.
Favored target is like favored enemy damage (and is therefore not "precision damage") and is not subject to immunity-to-precision-damage.
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I'd like to acknowledge the following issues people have brought up (however, I'd still like to hear playtest feedback based on the abilities as printed, without altering based on my comments below):
Acknowledged Points:
* Maybe 4 skill ranks is too low. But because it lacks trap-related abilities, it doesn't necessarily need an extra rank per level for Disable Device (because the assumpting is that it's not a trap-disabling class), so perhaps the skill ranks are where they should be. Please playtest with 4. :)
* A slayer talent allowing selection of a ranger combat style feat is an interesting idea.
* I like the idea that favored target could increase the DC of sneak attack effects against that target.
* Bluff not being a class skill is something the design team will discuss.
* The class doesn't really need the "if you get sneak attack from another source, it stacks" text, as that's redundant language, like always saying "which stacks with other dodge bonuses" every time you list a dodge bonus.
That implies a Slayer could just walk up to a favored target and stab him for sneak attack.Maybe Sneak Attack need to become a Combat Maneuver with some classes being better at it.I think that the condition simply needs to change from class to class.
For a sneaky rogue.. target must be denied dex or he must be flanking.For an Investigator, he has to use knowledge to identify and only gets a limited number per day (equal to the same number of Bombs an alchemist would get based on the investigator's reduced progression)
For the Slayer he only gets this damage on his focused target.
This would all make sense to me, keep the classes more unique, and fit the flavor better.
Yes, yes it does.
There would probably have to be a limited usage (x/day sort of thing) but then it is basically a hopped up challenge ability.The problem with sneak attack, is that as soon as you have it... welcome to being a rogue. Your build and your feat choices are now permanently marred by sneak attack. And if you don't make those investments, you lose half of your class.
Sneak Attack is the worst sort of pigeonholing.
It becomes a task, where you have to wrap your build around it, and focus all of your system mastery trying to support it. It is not a class feature in the proper sense.Think of it this way: If you were playing a standard sort of beast totem barbarian or a shield bashing fighter or a bow-shooting ranger and I suddenly, as your GM, just gave you full Sneak Attack. How big would that impact be? Not very. You may have a flanking partner, but that is just like saying "Build X" is really good as long as the wizard casts "spell Y" on me at the start of every combat.
Players usually want to be the masters of their own destiny, and that sounds appropriate to me. What if a barbarian got all his rage powers, but needed a Skald to enrage him or a caster to cast rage on him?
That is the sort...
A simple way for getting around the feat focus is to have other party members help you by flanking them. You only get +2 to attack but since your full BAB you should have an easier time hitting them then the rouge. Just sayin. The barbarian or monk with fast movement are good candidates for a flanking buddy.
When I play a rogue, I figure there are two ways to handle Sneak Attack easily without having to feint all the time or find other ways to deny DEX to AC.
There is the Flanking method, which I can usually support with Leadership, or just getting the rest of the group to listen to me, though since there is usually a player using a melee martial class, it's usually easy enough to get into flanking position.
The other way, which I only recently found, was the Gang Up feat, though you need to have two other melee players, which I'm somewhat lucky to have most of the time.
Something I noticed about this class when compared to the Rogue is that the Rogue can deal more sneak attack damage in a full-attack. A level 20 Rogue (not including feats for more attacks, like two-weapon fighting) gets 3 attacks at 10d6, making it possible to deal 30d6 sneak attack damage in one round. A Level 20 Slayer gets 4 attacks at 6d6, making it possible to deal 24d6 sneak attack damage in one round.
Favored Target makes up for it in some ways but not enough I believe, and I like Lord Malkov's idea of different ways to trigger Sneak Attack for different classes. For the Slayer, I agree with It only working on Favored Target, though a limit on uses for it that is reasonable would be good, which I believe should be "3+1/2 Slayer Level+DEX / Favored Target" so that it would reset for each favored target, so he doesn't run out of Sneak Attack uses, but can use it more easily despite being weaker.
EDIT: A rogue can also get the Major Magic talent so that they can cast Invisibility 2/day, which, while rather limited, can still be used to get a Sneak Attack in.
EDIT 2: I think that the Slayer would benefit from access to some more of the Rogue talents, such as ones that affect Sneak Attack.
A simple way for getting around the feat focus is to have other party members help you by flanking them. You only get +2 to attack but since your full BAB you should have an easier time hitting them then the rouge. Just sayin. The barbarian or monk with fast movement are good candidates for a flanking buddy.
I hate this argument. I really do. This is like saying that the rogue doesn't struggle to hit things as long he has a flank partner and a bard performing inspire courage etc. It still means they are dependent on others.
You could also suggest that the Wizard cast greater invisibility on you in every fight. Either way, sneak attack is still overly conditional.
Anyway, hopefully by level 11 or so, the Slayer will finally have enough feats to sink into sneak attack. And hopefully it will get Bluff as a class skill. And hopefully this imposition will make up for the lack of an animal companion and spells.
But I doubt it.
A simple way for getting around the feat focus is to have other party members help you by flanking them. You only get +2 to attack but since your full BAB you should have an easier time hitting them then the rouge. Just sayin. The barbarian or monk with fast movement are good candidates for a flanking buddy.I hate this argument. I really do. This is like saying that the rogue doesn't struggle to hit things as long he has a flank partner and a bard performing inspire courage etc. It still means they are dependent on others.
You could also suggest that the Wizard cast greater invisibility on you in every fight. Either way, sneak attack is still overly conditional.
Anyway, hopefully by level 11 or so, the Slayer will finally have enough feats to sink into sneak attack. And hopefully it will get Bluff as a class skill. And hopefully this imposition will make up for the lack of an animal companion and spells.
But I doubt it.
I don't know. Having the barbarian back you up doesn't seem that complicated or circumstantial, its just common sense.
A simple way for getting around the feat focus is to have other party members help you by flanking them. You only get +2 to attack but since your full BAB you should have an easier time hitting them then the rouge. Just sayin. The barbarian or monk with fast movement are good candidates for a flanking buddy.I hate this argument. I really do. This is like saying that the rogue doesn't struggle to hit things as long he has a flank partner and a bard performing inspire courage etc. It still means they are dependent on others.
You could also suggest that the Wizard cast greater invisibility on you in every fight. Either way, sneak attack is still overly conditional.
Anyway, hopefully by level 11 or so, the Slayer will finally have enough feats to sink into sneak attack. And hopefully it will get Bluff as a class skill. And hopefully this imposition will make up for the lack of an animal companion and spells.
But I doubt it.
Not to mention, what the **** do you do when you don't have a flanking buddy, or you are alone, or the enemy is immune to flanking, or the enemy is immune to SA, or...?
Complaint: Why does the investigator gain access to all rogue talents while the slayer doesn't? That just doesn't seem right.
It makes sense when you put it that way. But the slayer doesn't get Bleeding Attack or Ledge Walker, Powerful Sneak, or Slow Reactions (but it gets one called slowing strike), and that's just core. The investigator gets all those despite being a, well, investigator type.
Though I see you're open to new ones....
I had a recommendation for a couple,(EDIT: I see you acknowledged this as well)
Slayer Combat Style Talent. Can be taken multiple times to gain a feat from a chosen ranger combat style.
Must have to select Improved Combat Style Talent which would open up the 6th level feats
Must have at least one of each to get the advanced talent: Greater Combat Style Talent which would open up the 11th level combat style feats.
I may try and come up with more.
you still have favored target, full BAB, martial weapons, and medium armor so your not completely ****ed.
I don't know. Having the barbarian back you up doesn't seem that complicated or circumstantial, its just common sense.A simple way for getting around the feat focus is to have other party members help you by flanking them. You only get +2 to attack but since your full BAB you should have an easier time hitting them then the rouge. Just sayin. The barbarian or monk with fast movement are good candidates for a flanking buddy.I hate this argument. I really do. This is like saying that the rogue doesn't struggle to hit things as long he has a flank partner and a bard performing inspire courage etc. It still means they are dependent on others.
You could also suggest that the Wizard cast greater invisibility on you in every fight. Either way, sneak attack is still overly conditional.
Anyway, hopefully by level 11 or so, the Slayer will finally have enough feats to sink into sneak attack. And hopefully it will get Bluff as a class skill. And hopefully this imposition will make up for the lack of an animal companion and spells.
But I doubt it.
So an enemy with reach just really screws you over more than anyone else? A barbarian can take the hit from a large or larger enemy, but a rogue can't, so if that enemy gets an Attack of Opportunity on you, it can end poorly for you, especially when you need to get into a position where you are flanking, moving through at least one threatened square to do so. Even then, the enemy can move, so you have to set up your position AGAIN, causing you to provoke more Attacks of Opportunity.
So an enemy with reach just really screws you over more than anyone else? A barbarian can take the hit from a large or larger enemy, but a rogue can't, so if that enemy gets an Attack of Opportunity on you, it can end poorly for you, especially when you need to get into a position where you are flanking, moving through at least one threatened square to do so. Even then, the enemy can move, so you have to set up your position AGAIN, causing you to provoke more Attacks of Opportunity.I don't know. Having the barbarian back you up doesn't seem that complicated or circumstantial, its just common sense.A simple way for getting around the feat focus is to have other party members help you by flanking them. You only get +2 to attack but since your full BAB you should have an easier time hitting them then the rouge. Just sayin. The barbarian or monk with fast movement are good candidates for a flanking buddy.I hate this argument. I really do. This is like saying that the rogue doesn't struggle to hit things as long he has a flank partner and a bard performing inspire courage etc. It still means they are dependent on others.
You could also suggest that the Wizard cast greater invisibility on you in every fight. Either way, sneak attack is still overly conditional.
Anyway, hopefully by level 11 or so, the Slayer will finally have enough feats to sink into sneak attack. And hopefully it will get Bluff as a class skill. And hopefully this imposition will make up for the lack of an animal companion and spells.
But I doubt it.
the slayer has d10 hit die and the slayer and the barbarian both have access to martial reach weapons.
I apologize if i sound snarky. I just want to point some things out and help everybody.
A simple way for getting around the feat focus is to have other party members help you by flanking them. You only get +2 to attack but since your full BAB you should have an easier time hitting them then the rouge. Just sayin. The barbarian or monk with fast movement are good candidates for a flanking buddy.I hate this argument. I really do. This is like saying that the rogue doesn't struggle to hit things as long he has a flank partner and a bard performing inspire courage etc. It still means they are dependent on others.
You could also suggest that the Wizard cast greater invisibility on you in every fight. Either way, sneak attack is still overly conditional.
Anyway, hopefully by level 11 or so, the Slayer will finally have enough feats to sink into sneak attack. And hopefully it will get Bluff as a class skill. And hopefully this imposition will make up for the lack of an animal companion and spells.
But I doubt it.
Not to mention, what the **** do you do when you don't have a flanking buddy, or you are alone, or the enemy is immune to flanking, or the enemy is immune to SA, or...?
Generally speaking? You suck.
I played a straight rogue through Scarwall in the crimson throne AP.
All incorporeals. That place took us like 4 sessions to clear, and I was useless the entire time.
And that was a solid rogue build with feint, performance combat, shatter defenses... I could usually get sneak attack on almost anything. But then there are incorporeals and I am a liability.
So, anyway. Sneak attack is not horrible or anything, but it IS being over valued.
Take an animal companion, take ranger spells, take combat style, and then compare those to sneak attack. That is pretty much what is happening here.
Favored Target is equal to favored enemy. You can change it on the fly, but it grants half the bonus. Seems like a fair trade.
Lets say you are dropping your spells to get Slayer Talents... they are mostly based off of rogue talents, and we know where that road leads. Underwhelming would be the word I used. Not without their uses, but they will instantly be traded out for feats as soon and as often as possible, just like rogue talents. I would rather have the spells... they are far more powerful and versatile.
So you lose combat style and your companion and lowering your HD and skill points to get sneak attack. Is that a fair trade? Would you make that trade on a standard ranger?
I guess that is what this class is for. Perhaps we will see some interesting stuff with this full BAB rogue, but I think it will be far more likely that you see a bunch of Two-weapon feint Slayers struggling to stay alive on the front lines.
the slayer has d10 hit die and the slayer and the barbarian both have access to martial reach weapons.So an enemy with reach just really screws you over more than anyone else? A barbarian can take the hit from a large or larger enemy, but a rogue can't, so if that enemy gets an Attack of Opportunity on you, it can end poorly for you, especially when you need to get into a position where you are flanking, moving through at least one threatened square to do so. Even then, the enemy can move, so you have to set up your position AGAIN, causing you to provoke more Attacks of Opportunity.I don't know. Having the barbarian back you up doesn't seem that complicated or circumstantial, its just common sense.A simple way for getting around the feat focus is to have other party members help you by flanking them. You only get +2 to attack but since your full BAB you should have an easier time hitting them then the rouge. Just sayin. The barbarian or monk with fast movement are good candidates for a flanking buddy.I hate this argument. I really do. This is like saying that the rogue doesn't struggle to hit things as long he has a flank partner and a bard performing inspire courage etc. It still means they are dependent on others.
You could also suggest that the Wizard cast greater invisibility on you in every fight. Either way, sneak attack is still overly conditional.
Anyway, hopefully by level 11 or so, the Slayer will finally have enough feats to sink into sneak attack. And hopefully it will get Bluff as a class skill. And hopefully this imposition will make up for the lack of an animal companion and spells.
But I doubt it.
What if you do not have access to a flanking partner? Flanking shouldn't be the option that a rogue goes with most of the time. The rogue, and now somewhat the Slayer, relies somewhat heavily on other players just for that flanking, which isn't something you always see.
Though now I'm going to have fun Sneak Attacking with a reach weapon when my group finally gets around to doing a game with these classes.
Back on topic... A character should be able to rely on their own skills and abilities to greatly injure an enemy. A barbarian has rage, a fighter can hit hard, a caster has spells, a monk punches amazingly hard and can flurry. A rogue has to get lucky and either have a flanking partner (doesn't always happen) or find some other way to get rid of their enemy's DEX bonus to AC, which tends to use up a few feats.
EDIT: The only surefire way I know of to get Sneak Attack is with either Multiclassing to get a Companion (Ranger/Druid for an animal, or what I did for my KingMaker Rogue taking levels of ShadowDancer for a Shade) or Leadership for a Damage Sponge Cohort and using them to flank, though you can still lose your flanking partner in multiple ways.
What if you do not have access to a flanking partner? Flanking shouldn't be the option that a rogue goes with most of the time. The rogue, and now somewhat the Slayer, relies somewhat heavily on other players just for...the slayer has d10 hit die and the slayer and the barbarian both have access to martial reach weapons.So an enemy with reach just really screws you over more than anyone else? A barbarian can take the hit from a large or larger enemy, but a rogue can't, so if that enemy gets an Attack of Opportunity on you, it can end poorly for you, especially when you need to get into a position where you are flanking, moving through at least one threatened square to do so. Even then, the enemy can move, so you have to set up your position AGAIN, causing you to provoke more Attacks of Opportunity.I don't know. Having the barbarian back you up doesn't seem that complicated or circumstantial, its just common sense.A simple way for getting around the feat focus is to have other party members help you by flanking them. You only get +2 to attack but since your full BAB you should have an easier time hitting them then the rouge. Just sayin. The barbarian or monk with fast movement are good candidates for a flanking buddy.I hate this argument. I really do. This is like saying that the rogue doesn't struggle to hit things as long he has a flank partner and a bard performing inspire courage etc. It still means they are dependent on others.
You could also suggest that the Wizard cast greater invisibility on you in every fight. Either way, sneak attack is still overly conditional.
Anyway, hopefully by level 11 or so, the Slayer will finally have enough feats to sink into sneak attack. And hopefully it will get Bluff as a class skill. And hopefully this imposition will make up for the lack of an animal companion and spells.
But I doubt it.
Well im glad you liked my reach weapon idea. Slayers do have favored target if they cant sneak attack, but i still think we could use a combat style slayer talent to patch things up a bit. also if they bump up skills to +6 then perhaps UMD would be a viable option to make up for the lack of spells.
...What if you do not have access to a flanking partner? Flanking shouldn't be the option that a rogue goes with most of the time. The rogue, and now somewhat the Slayer, relies somewhat heavilythe slayer has d10 hit die and the slayer and the barbarian both have access to martial reach weapons.So an enemy with reach just really screws you over more than anyone else? A barbarian can take the hit from a large or larger enemy, but a rogue can't, so if that enemy gets an Attack of Opportunity on you, it can end poorly for you, especially when you need to get into a position where you are flanking, moving through at least one threatened square to do so. Even then, the enemy can move, so you have to set up your position AGAIN, causing you to provoke more Attacks of Opportunity.I don't know. Having the barbarian back you up doesn't seem that complicated or circumstantial, its just common sense.A simple way for getting around the feat focus is to have other party members help you by flanking them. You only get +2 to attack but since your full BAB you should have an easier time hitting them then the rouge. Just sayin. The barbarian or monk with fast movement are good candidates for a flanking buddy.I hate this argument. I really do. This is like saying that the rogue doesn't struggle to hit things as long he has a flank partner and a bard performing inspire courage etc. It still means they are dependent on others.
You could also suggest that the Wizard cast greater invisibility on you in every fight. Either way, sneak attack is still overly conditional.
Anyway, hopefully by level 11 or so, the Slayer will finally have enough feats to sink into sneak attack. And hopefully it will get Bluff as a class skill. And hopefully this imposition will make up for the lack of an animal companion and spells.
But I doubt it.
CONGA LINE!!!
I do think this class should have access to a few more skills, such as Knowledge (Nature), Disable Device, Diplomacy, and Bluff, though we risk this class turning into a partial skill monkey class, which I think they were originally trying to avoid despite being a hybrid of two classes that are skill monkeys.
Also, Favored Target is decent, but not something to always rely on, as it only gives up to +5, and it could be better, with the extra damage raising by 2 points every 5 levels, but keeping the to-hit bonus at +1 every 5 levels.
Believe me when I say this class was the one I most anticipated, and I will test it as soon as possible.
Personally I like the idea of substituting Bane for SA, I had a similar thought earlier and I think its works with the theme.
That said if SA is going to be the bonus damage ability then I'm down with Lord_Malkov and Regeaj suggestions of different ways to apply SA. Maybe some mechanic where you can use your multiple uses of Favored Target to stack on one target to reduce some of the limitations?
Not the attack and damage bonuses obviously but something where higher level slayers can really focus down a target and gain increasing benefits.
Well, if you really dissect the ability, you are getting an average of +21 damage on a sneak attack once you have your maximum dice (6d6). So, call it +1 dmg per level, with a condition.
So, all you need to do is pick the condition, and throw in the damage. Or make the condition simple/constant and half the damage.
For example, if you made it so that on enemies that can be crit the slayer adds 1/2 slayer level to damage (as precision dmg not multiplied on a crit) You have an appropriate ability. Then a level 5 slayer is getting +2 to hit and +4 damage on his focused target, rather than +2 hit/+2 damage and a conditional bonus 1d6. At level 6 the slayer is then getting +2 to hit and +5 damage on his favored target rather than +2 to hit, +2 dmg and a possible 2d6.
My suggestion at 6: +2 hit, +5 dmg
With avg'd SA: +2 hit +9 dmg (bigger condition)
Level 9: +2 hit, +6 dmg
with avg'd SA: +2 hit, +12.5 dmg
Level 12: +3 hit, +9 dmg
with avg'd SA: +3 hit, +17 dmg
SO overall you are getting only half of what you would get for sneak attack, but you don't have to bend over backwards to get it, and you aren't as prohibited from using a ranged build. You get to be consistent, and very effective.
Personally I like the idea of substituting Bane for SA, I had a similar thought earlier and I think its works with the theme.
That said if SA is going to be the bonus damage ability then I'm down with Lord_Malkov and Regeaj suggestions of different ways to apply SA. Maybe some mechanic where you can use your multiple uses of Favored Target to stack on one target to reduce some of the limitations?
Not the attack and damage bonuses obviously but something where higher level slayers can really focus down a target and gain increasing benefits.
Well, if you really dissect the ability, you are getting an average of +21 damage on a sneak attack once you have your maximum dice (6d6). So, call it +1 dmg per level, with a condition.
So, all you need to do is pick the condition, and throw in the damage. Or make the condition simple/constant and half the damage.
For example, if you made it so that on enemies that can be crit the slayer adds 1/2 slayer level to damage (as precision dmg not multiplied on a crit) You have an appropriate ability. Then a level 5 slayer is getting +2 to hit and +4 damage on his focused target, rather than +2 hit/+2 damage and a conditional bonus 1d6. At level 6 the slayer is then getting +2 to hit and +5 damage on his favored target rather than +2 to hit, +2 dmg and a possible 2d6.
My suggestion at 6: +2 hit, +5 dmg
With avg'd SA: +2 hit +9 dmg (bigger condition)Level 9: +2 hit, +6 dmg
with avg'd SA: +2 hit, +12.5 dmgLevel 12: +3 hit, +9 dmg
with avg'd SA: +3 hit, +17 dmgSO overall you are getting only half of what you would get for sneak attack, but you don't have to bend over backwards to get it, and you aren't as prohibited from using a ranged build. You get to be consistent, and very effective.
This sounds like a great idea.
As it is now, the Slayer looks like it will need all 6 ability scores in a way.
I, personally, would still prefer the Sneak Attack, except using Favored Target as the trigger instead of Flanking/No Dex to AC. A limit of 3+1/2 Slayer Level per Favored Target would be the limit. Though you have to remember, this class still has a lower SA than the Rogue by 4 dice, and they need some way to make up for it other than just being able to use martial weapons and medium armor, though I do think shield proficiency is a somewhat strange choice for this class.
EDIT: The bane idea, however, is still not half bad for the Slayer, but I think it would be more appropriate for an archetype as this is still suppose to be a combination of Ranger and Rogue.
I have to admit thats starting to sound like a good idea too.
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It does seem odd that a hybrid between ranger and rogue would have less skill points than either of the two parent classes, doesn't it?
you know at first I thought this too, but if the class stays invested in having a good INT score you are going to have scads of skill points anyway.
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So DPR Check, let's see what we can do and if this is to high, to low, or just right.
20 PB, 2 traits, 10th level. Try and break it.
This one is for you Ciretose.
Level 10 Human Slayer (20 Point buy)
Traits: Fate's Favored, Reactionary
Str:20(22) (Base 16+2Human and Ability points at 4 and 8)
Dex:15(17)
Con:14
Int:10
Wis:12
Cha:7
Feats/Talents:
1: Two Weapon Fighting
Human: EWP Sawtooth Saber
2: Weapon Training (Sawtooth Saber)
3: Power Attack
4: Combat Trick (Double Slice)
5: Step Up
6: Rogue Crawl
7: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
8: Fast Stealth
9: Combat Reflexes
10: Opportunist (This is crazy good for the Slayer)
Gear:
Belt of Physical Might (+2 Str and Dex)
+2 Sawtooth Saber
+2 Sawtooth Saber
Cloak of Resistance +3
Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier
+3 Mithril Breastplate
Amulet of Natural Armor +1
Ring of Protection +1
Skills: 10 Ranks +3 Class Skill on each
Acrobatics +16
Climb +19
Perception +14
Stealth +16
Survival +14
DEFENSES
HP: 89
AC: 26
Fort:+12 Ref:+13 Will:+7
OFFENSES:
Favored Target grants a +3 to Attack and Weapon Damage Rolls. Swift Action to place.
Attack Bonus Calculation: 10(BAB)+6(Str)+3(Fav.Targ)+2(Wep.En)+1(Wep Focus)-2(Two Weapon Fighting)= +20
Attack Bonus without Power Attacking with Favored Target up: +20/+20/+15/+15
Damage: 1d8+11/1d8+11/1d8+11/1d8+11
Attack Bonus while P.A with Favored Target: +18/+18/+13/+13
Damage: 1d8+15/1d8+15/1d8+13/1d8+13
Damage while Sneak Attacking: 1d8+11+3d6/1d8+11+3d6/1d8+10+3d6/1d8+10+3d6
And if that isn't an option to change.. then the Slayer is going to need to be able to get Combat style feats in place of Talents.
Because sneak attack comes with its own taxes.
But really... as an offensive class... what is the purpose here?
If you are sniping off one shot a round, then you are probably better off just taking the full SA progression from a rogue... with one attack per round, you don't have the massive attack bonus concerns that a TWF rogue has.
You will also be a poor option for a vital striking two0hander sort of mobile rogue compared to any rogue with the Scout Archtype.
So you are pretty much left with TWF. And the only reliable way to use TWF and SA is two-weapon feint. But then you need 13 int, Combat Expertise, Imp Feint, Two Weapon Feint, Two Weapon Fighting and Improved Two Weapon Fighting and Greater Feint all by level 11.
So there are your feats at 1,3,5,7,9,11 and you aren't really operating well until 7th.
Better be human if you want Double Slice or power attack. You'll need a 19 dex, so you may as well use finesse.
So now you will need Str 13, Dex 19, and int 13 to function.
Better have a darn good Con as well, since you have that lousy hit die and you can't get Offensive Defense.
Also might be worth taking Skill Focus Bluff...you know, since it isn't a class skill.
So an enemy with reach just really screws you over more than anyone else? A barbarian can take the hit from a large or larger enemy, but a rogue can't, so if that enemy gets an Attack of Opportunity on you, it can end poorly for you, especially when you need to get into a position where you are flanking, moving through at least one threatened square to do so. Even then, the enemy can move, so you have to set up your position AGAIN, causing you to provoke more Attacks of Opportunity.I don't know. Having the barbarian back you up doesn't seem that complicated or circumstantial, its just common sense.A simple way for getting around the feat focus is to have other party members help you by flanking them. You only get +2 to attack but since your full BAB you should have an easier time hitting them then the rouge. Just sayin. The barbarian or monk with fast movement are good candidates for a flanking buddy.I hate this argument. I really do. This is like saying that the rogue doesn't struggle to hit things as long he has a flank partner and a bard performing inspire courage etc. It still means they are dependent on others.
You could also suggest that the Wizard cast greater invisibility on you in every fight. Either way, sneak attack is still overly conditional.
Anyway, hopefully by level 11 or so, the Slayer will finally have enough feats to sink into sneak attack. And hopefully it will get Bluff as a class skill. And hopefully this imposition will make up for the lack of an animal companion and spells.
But I doubt it.
acrobatics.
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And if that isn't an option to change.. then the Slayer is going to need to be able to get Combat style feats in place of Talents.
Because sneak attack comes with its own taxes.
But really... as an offensive class... what is the purpose here?
If you are sniping off one shot a round, then you are probably better off just taking the full SA progression from a rogue... with one attack per round, you don't have the massive attack bonus concerns that a TWF rogue has.
You will also be a poor option for a vital striking two0hander sort of mobile rogue compared to any rogue with the Scout Archtype.
So you are pretty much left with TWF. And the only reliable way to use TWF and SA is two-weapon feint. But then you need 13 int, Combat Expertise, Imp Feint, Two Weapon Feint, Two Weapon Fighting and Improved Two Weapon Fighting and Greater Feint all by level 11.
So there are your feats at 1,3,5,7,9,11 and you aren't really operating well until 7th.
Better be human if you want Double Slice or power attack. You'll need a 19 dex, so you may as well use finesse.So now you will need Str 13, Dex 19, and int 13 to function.
Better have a darn good Con as well, since you have that lousy hit die and you can't get Offensive Defense.Also might be worth taking Skill Focus Bluff...you know, since it isn't a class skill.
(Psst... Slayers get a d10 now, and bluff is being considered for a class skill)
But then its not really sneak attack. And Barbarians get shield proficiency even though its better to two-hand a weapon.
The thing is that the original Sneak Attack is to situational to use. A variant for the Slayer (possibly called "Focused Strike" or "Favored Strike" or something) would be preferred in this case.
Also, this class still seems weird to get Shield proficiency despite the Ranger having it. This class doesn't seem to much like it would need a shield, but I'm not complaining.
acrobatics.
Acrobatics doesn't always succeed, and you will fail at some point if the enemy causes you to keep on provoking Attacks of Opportunity.
I, personally, would still prefer the Sneak Attack, except using Favored Target as the trigger instead of Flanking/No Dex to AC. A limit of 3+1/2 Slayer Level per Favored Target would be the limit. Though you have to remember, this class still has a lower SA than the Rogue by 4 dice, and they need some way to make up for it other than just being able to use martial weapons and medium armor, though I do think shield proficiency is a somewhat strange choice for this class.
EDIT: The bane idea, however, is still not half bad for the Slayer, but I think it would be more appropriate for an archetype as this is still suppose to be a combination of Ranger and Rogue.
That was my first suggestion as well.
I stand behind the idea that you can't just slap sneak attack onto a class and say that it functions.I think with three new base classes that have sneak attack, there is a great opportunity to do two things.
1) make it so that the condition for sneak attack is mutable.
2) Let the rogue be the only class with "unlimited" sneak attacks
I think that at level 3, the slayer should get level + Wisdom Bonus uses per day. Declare after hitting but before rolling damage.
This would be 10+wisdom uses per day at level 10, which could easily be expended very quickly. This falls behind bane in many ways, but Favored Target, I think, makes up for that.
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Guys. Quit being so hung up on Sneak Attack. The Slayer actually doesn't need to shoot for it constantly. Check out my build and look at his damage. He's pretty above average even when hes not sneak attacking. And hes got a REALLY good Attack Bonus.
The Slayer doesn't need to bend over backwards to get his Sneak Attack. He lets the Sneak Attacks come to him.
I, personally, would still prefer the Sneak Attack, except using Favored Target as the trigger instead of Flanking/No Dex to AC. A limit of 3+1/2 Slayer Level per Favored Target would be the limit. Though you have to remember, this class still has a lower SA than the Rogue by 4 dice, and they need some way to make up for it other than just being able to use martial weapons and medium armor, though I do think shield proficiency is a somewhat strange choice for this class.
EDIT: The bane idea, however, is still not half bad for the Slayer, but I think it would be more appropriate for an archetype as this is still suppose to be a combination of Ranger and Rogue.
That was my first suggestion as well.
I stand behind the idea that you can't just slap sneak attack onto a class and say that it functions.I think with three new base classes that have sneak attack, there is a great opportunity to do two things.
1) make it so that the condition for sneak attack is mutable.
2) Let the rogue be the only class with "unlimited" sneak attacksI think that at level 3, the slayer should get level + Wisdom Bonus uses per day. Declare after hitting but before rolling damage.
This would be 10+wisdom uses per day at level 10, which could easily be expended very quickly. This falls behind bane in many ways, but Favored Target, I think, makes up for that.
I'd prefer to not start bringing Wisdom into the Slayer, as he currently needs Strength for Damage (Unless they get an Agile weapon or Dervish Dance), most likely Dexterity (I'm not sure if the Slayer is more DEX-based or STR-based), possibly Charisma, and most likely Intelligence.
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Guys. Quit being so hung up on Sneak Attack. The Slayer actually doesn't need to shoot for it constantly. Check out my build and look at his damage. He's pretty above average even when hes not sneak attacking. And hes got a REALLY good Attack Bonus.
The Slayer doesn't need to bend over backwards to get his Sneak Attack. He lets the Sneak Attacks come to him.
This. He's good. But better with an ally.
But then its not really sneak attack. And Barbarians get shield proficiency even though its better to two-hand a weapon.
Arcane Tricksters can use Impromptu Sneak attack... still sneak attack.
But in any case, there is no need to call it sneak attack. For flavor, I would prefer it was not called sneak attack anyway.
Ideas for names:
Slay Enemy
Slayer's Strike
Focused Attack
Strike at the Heart
Deadly Focus
Slayer's Precision
Something like that. Or just pick a Slayer song... that could always work too. Angel of Death? Raining Blood?
Guys. Quit being so hung up on Sneak Attack. The Slayer actually doesn't need to shoot for it constantly. Check out my build and look at his damage. He's pretty above average even when hes not sneak attacking. And hes got a REALLY good Attack Bonus.
The Slayer doesn't need to bend over backwards to get his Sneak Attack. He lets the Sneak Attacks come to him.
The thing is, it seems that Sneak Attack is what it comes down to. People who play Rogue would have problems using Sneak Attack, and it is half the class. With Slayer, it doesn't take up as much space on the class, but it is still important for it.
Also Scavion, when designing a character concept, I prefer to see what I can do without relying on magic items because those specific ones aren't always available. A class has to be able to effectively rely on it's own abilities.
Guys. Quit being so hung up on Sneak Attack. The Slayer actually doesn't need to shoot for it constantly. Check out my build and look at his damage. He's pretty above average even when hes not sneak attacking. And hes got a REALLY good Attack Bonus.
The Slayer doesn't need to bend over backwards to get his Sneak Attack. He lets the Sneak Attacks come to him.
The thing is, it seems that Sneak Attack is what it comes down to. People who play Rogue would have problems using Sneak Attack, and it is half the class. With Slayer, it doesn't take up as much space on the class, but it is still important for it.
Also Scavion, when designing a character concept, I prefer to see what I can do without relying on magic items because those specific ones aren't always available. A class has to be able to effectively rely on it's own abilities.
No Magic item specifically makes or breaks my build. Unless you can't even get your hands on a Belt of a Dex +2 in your games in which case thats super brutal and I'm sorry for you.