Lead Designer
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This thread is for discussing the Shaman. It should be used as a central location for feedback on the class as a whole. Discussion on specific topics and rules should receive their own individual thread in this forum.
Keep it civil and polite folks. Remember we are all here to make this book the best it can be.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
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I will be rebuilding my Cleric (Seperatist) of Sarenrae as a Shaman for our WotR campaign.
Some initial observations on the class:
- I really like the flavour + theme through the class
- I was surprised it was 3/4 BAB and medium armor
- I was surprised it used the Cleric spell list given the theme of the class (figured it might have been druid or witch)
- In a cursory glance over all the classes, it looks like this and Warpriest are the only two classes that have built-in MAD (Warpriest to a lesser extent). Wisdom and Charisma are both important for their class abilities to function properly/well. I understand that if you want to build a warrior cleric or oracle you will need 2-3 strong stats, but this requires the extra stat on top of them. I would prefer if some of the class abilities scaled off of level (like others within the class, and it looks like a majority of the other classes in the ACG) do. Will playtest before coming to a full conclusion
Some initial thoughts while rebuilding my character (currently a level 2 human):
- the Shaman is likely easier to be compared directly to the cleric in terms of power, because they use the same spellcasting, armor proficiencies, HD, BAB (and because the cleric is core)
- the ability to choose your Spirit Magic on the fly is really interesting, but isn't really a big thing until level 4 when you get Wandering Spirit (compared to cleric: stronger ability)
- Wandering Spirit and Wandering Hex are wonderful class features. I love them. They are incredibly versatile, and can help a character from getting stale. I feel like on a whole each spirit is stronger than a domain
- I was also (pleasantly) surprised that they got 4 skills/level, even with a small skill list
I can see this being an incredibly deadly, versatile spellcaster with the Lore Spirit, getting access to the wizard/sorc list. But I'm super excited to see what I can do with it, throwing it right into melee.
It feels powerful in comparison to the cleric. But it's a wonderful class.
Can the Shaman learn Witch Hexes, or only the hexes mentioned in their spirit?
Their Hex ability reads: ...At 2nd level, a shaman learns one hex, chosen from those available from her spirit...
So, pretty clear just the ones given to them by their Spirit, and then the Wandering Hex can obviously be chosen from between their Spirit or Wandering Spirit.
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First blush thought on the LIFE spirit:
The 8th level Greater Spirit Ability feels very lackluster.
Healer's Touch (Su):
With a touch of her hand, a shaman can touch a dying creature to stabilize it without the need of a Heal check. She can affect up to 6 people as a standard action. Furthermore, a shaman gains a +4 bonus on Heal checks
While I understand that the design intent is clearly stated in the "role" section ("While she isn't the healer that a cleric is, she can still fill the role when needed"), the ability gained at 8th level is at best underpowered and at worst an ability that would be simply ignored in favor of a one-off channel or multiple uses of the Stabilize cantrip.
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This is my favourite of the new classes.
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Can the Shaman learn Witch Hexes, or only the hexes mentioned in their spirit?Their Hex ability reads: ...At 2nd level, a shaman learns one hex, chosen from those available from her spirit...
So, pretty clear just the ones given to them by their Spirit, and then the Wandering Hex can obviously be chosen from between their Spirit or Wandering Spirit.
fair enough, must have missed that.
I also want to talk about this Hex.
Arcane Enlightenment (Su): The shaman’s native intelligence grants her the ability to tap into arcane lore. The shaman can add to her spell list a number of arcane spells from the sorcerer/wizard spell list equal to her Charisma modifier, using the sorcerer/wizard level of the spell as the shaman level. To add these spells to her spell list and cast these spells, she must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level, but the saving throw DCs against these spells is the same as her other shaman spells. Each level she gains after taking this hex the shaman can choose to replace one of these spells for a new spell on the wizard/sorcerer list.
Is it intended that this makes the Shaman need all 3 mental stats to some extent?
Should this really be something that can be taken with Wandering Hex? Because it effectively lets a high level Shaman choose any wizard/sorcerer spell they need for the day, and it's actually much better as a Wandering Hex then as a normal hex.Why not the Witch list? I mean the shaman is an oracle/witch, not oracle/wizard/sorcerer, should they really get access to spells not on the oracle and witch lists?
My second favourite class here and very enjoyable. I believe they can take advanced familiar as a feat?
Especially because they get two spirits, and will be using more throughout their play, I feel an extra one or two options would really tie this together. The hexes feel quite solid, and that they have a significant impact. For the Battle Hex: "Battle Ward", is it supposed to have an infinite duration and number of active instances? It seems unlikely, so I will be using the duration of "Ward of Flames", and "Ward of Stone" of one minute. I recommend others do too, or it could get silly.
My personal favourite feature of this class is actually that it gets spell progression and a usual cleric speed. I often feel it hard to justify 'full spellcasters' that get spells a level late, as a new level of spells is so major. A new max-progression-speed caster is greatly appreciated. I imagine it will be the next character I make, after a Bloodrager and that damn rogue I never got around to.
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I also agree with @dunebugg that this will be a versatile caster (albeit potentially MAD).
I wrote elsewhere:
"So, let's say your L6. This is when you can swap out that second spirit AND also pick a hex from it.
Maybe LIFE is your main spirit and you took the Life Link hex. You know it's gonna be a dungeon crawl, so you pick BATTLE as your second spirit. You get BATTLE spirit ability (maximized heals) and choose a debuff hex.
The next day, you know you'll be at the grand library doing research. You decide to pick LORE as your wandering spirit for a boost to your knowledge skills via the Benefit of Wisdom hex.
On the final day, having learned their opponent is a bad guy who is a melee bad ass, you pick the HEAVENS spirit for your second spirit for the Enveloping Void hex to effectively blind him.
Only the main spirit will ever progress to be powerful, but with judicious wandering spirit swapping, you'll always be relevant."
@Lyee
Because this is a playtest, I hope they will add more Spirit options. They seem to be mainly based around the Oracle mysteries. I can easily see them adding Time, Lunar, Metal, and Ancestors (among others) to this list by actual release. I'd also really like to see some of the Witch Patrons developed into full Spirits, instead of only pulling from the oracle.
The Witch Ward Hex has a duration of 'until expended', but can only have one up at a time, and can't use it on themselves. So some clarity will hopefully be nice
@Dylos
Arcane Enlightment makes sense that it requires all 3 mental stats to be used to its full extent. For dedicated casters, it means it's an option to increase their potent versatility even further. For battle shamans, it means it will take some major effort to get some useful arcane spells out of it. But agreed that it's one of the most (if not most) powerful Wandering Hexes.
@Oracle vs Witch flavour:
I feel like it finds a nice middle ground in terms of flavour. In terms of class abilities, it definitely feels heavy towards the oracle though. The skills, some of the hexes, and familiar are really the only witchy things mechanically.
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Would have preferred to see the Familiar replaced with something like a fetish. A bonded item of some sort, rather than just another familiar class.
The rest seems fine, I'm not a big fan of hexes so that kind of makes the class not my personal bag. But I can see the appeal.
Would have preferred to see the Familiar replaced with something like a fetish. A bonded item of some sort, rather than just another familiar class.
Considering there are a couple witch archetypes that do as much, I'd expect to see one in the final release.
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I actually really like them having a familiar if for no other reason then this gem.
Companion Familiar (Su): The shaman’s familiar takes the form of an animal companion (Core Rulebook 51) of her choice, using her shaman level as her effective druid level. It retains all the special abilities and the Intelligence score of the familiar, but also has the statistics and abilities of an animal companion. If the companion familiar is dismissed, lost, or dies, it can be replaced in the same way as a normal familiar.
Shame its something you get at 15th level.
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This is my favorite class that I have read in the guide. I love the flavor and mechanics involved. However, mechanically this feels more cleric than oracle to me. Apparently I am alone on this judging by the above comments. I suppose I was expecting either spontaneous casting or charisma dependent casting as the oracle contribution to the spell side of things. The wisdom casting threw me for a bit of a loop when I read it. What does wisdom have to do with either class?
Originally I wished they had used different words for hexes since they are distinctly different from witch hexes, but an above comment about having feats ready to go to augment this class made me rethink that decision.
I had a little confusion at first in that I thought the familiar was the spirit, so I thought maybe you get a second familiar when you get a wandering spirit. A second reading of the class features cleared that up for me, but from a fluff perspective a little clearing up of exactly how the wandering spirits manifests itself would be nice. Does the familiar take on the characteristics of the wandering spirit also as if being possessed by it too? Does the shaman have the tells associated with the wandering spirits when manifesting one of those powers? As it reads now, I don't think so. But either of both of those things would be a cool way to physically represent this extra unseen presence that is affecting you.
I think there is a typo in the first paragraph "Familiars also aid a
witch by granting her skill bonuses."
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Can the Shaman learn Witch Hexes, or only the hexes mentioned in their spirit?Their Hex ability reads: ...At 2nd level, a shaman learns one hex, chosen from those available from her spirit...
So, pretty clear just the ones given to them by their Spirit, and then the Wandering Hex can obviously be chosen from between their Spirit or Wandering Spirit.
I think this could be better clarified. I agree that at 2nd level you get to choose from amongst your spirits hexes.
However, at level 3 and you can take Extra Hex as a feat, what allows or prevents you from selecting from available/legal witch hexes? I'm not arguing for or against, but that it needs clarity and certainly will affect how witchy the Shaman class can feel.
Can a Familiar deliver hexes with range touch?
Yes, last ability described on the class states this. Initially I thought it was just a repeat of the wizard familiar touch ability, but closer inspection revealed the hex was included.
Why would Shaman's need Charisma?
I saw this mentioned a few times, but aren't both their spells and hexes are based on Wisdom?
Several of the hexes use charisma to determine things like how often you can use them and how long they last.
Why would Shaman's need Charisma?
I saw this mentioned a few times, but aren't both their spells and hexes are based on Wisdom?
The life spirit lets you channel 1+Cha Mod a day as a cleric.
Can the Shaman learn Witch Hexes, or only the hexes mentioned in their spirit?Their Hex ability reads: ...At 2nd level, a shaman learns one hex, chosen from those available from her spirit...
So, pretty clear just the ones given to them by their Spirit, and then the Wandering Hex can obviously be chosen from between their Spirit or Wandering Spirit.
I think this could be better clarified. I agree that at 2nd level you get to choose from amongst your spirits hexes.
However, at level 3 and you can take Extra Hex as a feat, what allows or prevents you from selecting from available/legal witch hexes? I'm not arguing for or against, but that it needs clarity and certainly will affect how witchy the Shaman class can feel.
I think the line "You must meet all of the prerequisites for this hex." prohibits you from taking witch hexes.
'Crystal Sight' is awful and a GM killer. Especially at such a low level. No no no no no. I don't want all my dungeons to become made of glass for the party.
For early levels, thick walls will stop too-important stuff being given away.
Later levels, metal-lined or magically enhanced walls aren't that hard to imagine, and they'll be more than crystal sight to spy around the place. Remember, any stone wall is defeated by an earth elemental summon (which every party can probably do) and speaking Terran. In addition, said elemental can potentially wreak things it finds on the other side. God forbid someone grabs an earth-elemental familiar :P
i like this class... i think it's connection to witch and oracle are kind of weak though. I honestly think that with just a little tweaking this really could be a stand alone class instead of one of these 'hybrids' (basically just stop calling their powers hexes and don't name the spirits after mysteries)
The witch aspect comes from the communing with a familiar, the gaining of power from mysterious, ephemeral entities, and also the existence of infinite-use powerful magic. I think that's a solid enough contribution.
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yeah this class is the flavour bomb. You get everything that you always wanted. The curseless Oracle, the male witch/warlock,the binder,the godless cleric....etc.
I don't even know why I should play anything else in the future.
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Yep, I love the mechanics of this one. Still want to do an Ancestors Spirit for it. Standing offer! :)
Sorry if this is too rules heavy, I realize that the OP asked for rules to go elsewhere. I guess I see this as feedback on the clarity of certain aspects, if this is out of place just let me know.
Heaven’s Leap (Su): The shaman is adept at creating tiny
tears in the fabric of space, and temporarily stitching
them to reach other locations with a limited, oneway
wormhole. As a standard action, the shaman can
designate herself or a single ally that she can see who is
within 30 feet of her. She can move that creature as if it
were subject to jester’s jaunt. Once targeted by this hex,
the ally cannot be affected by this hex for 1 day.
I don't think it is the intent, but it reads like the Shaman can use this on himself an unlimited number of times.
Bone Ward (Su): A shaman can touch a willing creature
(including herself ) to grant a bone ward. The warded
creature becomes encircled by a group of flying bones
that grant a +2 deflection bonus for a number of rounds
equal to the shaman’s class level. At 8th level, the ward
increases to +3 lasts for 1 minute and at 16th level the
bonus increases to +4 and lasts for 1 hour. Once the ward
ends, a creature cannot be the target of the hex again for
1 day.
I also don't think it is intended, but it reads that as long as you keep targeting someone before the old duration runs out you can keep this running indefinitely. Is that right?
Starburn (Su): As a standard action, the shaman causes
one creature within 30 feet to burn like a star. The
creature lets off bright light for 1 round and takes 1d6
points of fire damage for every two shaman levels she
possesses; a successful Fortitude saving throw halves the
damage and negates the shedding of bright light. The
shaman can use this hex a number of times per day equal
to her Charisma modifier, but once used she cannot use
it again for 1d4 rounds.
Most of the other similar hexes describe interactions with invisible creatures, I am uncertain if an invisible creature would still emit light on this one. This is probably a moot point since the stardust ability would take care of this, but it is still a curiosity.
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Since the Shaman counts as her own ally, she's still affected by that limit of once per day.
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Shaman strikes me as a solid, balanced option.
My reaction on reading about the Life spirit:
"Oh, this'll be like the healbot Life Oracle, right?"
*reads first Hex: Curse of Suffering*
;_;
Paizo confirms that life is suffering.
Edit:
Lore ability fluffs Arcane Enlightenment with intelligence, but then uses Cha mod. Kinda weird.
Edit2: I was wondering when I'd get to the "add casting stat to AC" refluff, and it turns out it's at Nature. So now with a dip in either Nature Shaman or Monk, we can ditch Dex entirely and get sweet sweet double Wis to AC.
Since the Shaman counts as her own ally, she's still affected by that limit of once per day.
If there is a pathfinder mechanics definition of the word that is this inclusive, I am unaware of it. Also if that is true, earlier in the text it isn't necessary to state "herself or a single ally."
Just being overprecise for the "herself or a single ally".
And yep! It's right here.
Would have preferred to see the Familiar replaced with something like a fetish. A bonded item of some sort, rather than just another familiar class.Considering there are a couple witch archetypes that do as much, I'd expect to see one in the final release.
On the upside, the familiar for the shaman can be pretty awesome I thought. The spirit familiar in particular is extra flavorful looking! I mean, they don't always see the light of day, but its still pretty cool to have a flying familiar with a nimbus of light or is a living star map and they come with mechanical benefits. Kind of wish that was an option for some of the other kids.
Shaman strikes me as a solid, balanced option.
My reaction on reading about the Life spirit:
"Oh, this'll be like the healbot Life Oracle, right?"
*reads first Hex: Curse of Suffering*
;_;Paizo confirms that life is suffering.
Haha! My first reaction. "Oh hey life, I bet they get to channel to heal!" *mark of suffering!* "Umm... nevermind..." Might uhh... might go for a name change sometime... right?
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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I didn't really like the execution of this class at all. First, as a shaman who gets powers from spirits, I was expecting some abilities related to spirits, as in undead, fey, elementals, etc.
Second, this really just feels like alternate oracle to me. It uses the same spell list, the hexes are really just different alternate mysteries, but you get fewer since you can use a 2nd one with the wandering spirit. There's very little of the witch in the class at all, either through spell list of actual witch hexes. I was expecting that each spirit would have a sub-set of actual witch hexes to choose from and actually combine the existing hexes with oracular/spirit powers.
@cheapy Thank you
....I was expecting that each spirit would have a sub-set of actual witch hexes to choose from and actually combine the existing hexes with oracular/spirit powers.
Me too. I was a little disappointed by the few options for hexes each one had available, but I was actually both happy and surprised to see new hexes all together.
I suspect that more hexes will come. They actually devoted a pretty large chunk of text to this class already just to get it started, so I can't be too disappointed that each spirit only has a few hex options.
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I'd like to compare some of the abilities between battle and life Shamans.
First of all, this ability, the Greater Spirit Ability of Healing:
Healer’s Touch (Su): With a touch of her hand, a shaman can touch a dying creature to stabilize it without the need of a Heal check. She can affect up to 6 people as standard action. Furthermore, a shaman gains a +4 bonus on Heal checks.
For an ability gained at 8th level, a mass version of an Orison seems fairly weak.
And this ability, the Spirit ability of Battle:
Healing Spirit (Su): When the shaman casts a conjuration (healing) spell, she’s treated as 2 caster levels higher. In addition, she can maximize the effects of a conjuration (healing) spell as if she applied the Maximize Spell metamagic feat, as long as that spell is cast on a creature other than herself. She can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Charisma modifier.
1. How does this fit the flavor of battle, which is described as "A shaman who selects the battle spirit gains scars from every wound she takes, and the grit of battle always seems to cling on her body. When she uses a special ability of this spirit, she seems to grow in stature—becoming taller and more muscular, with a grimace of rage stretching across her face."
2. With low charisma at level 1, say 12, you can maximize your cure spells 4 times per day, and a level 1 Shaman would at most have 3 cure spells at level 1, they don't even get to spontaneously replace their prepared spells with cure spells, there is very little reason for this ability to be a level 1 ability.3. It completely outshines the level 8 ability of the Life Shaman, above.
In my humble opinion, battle really needs a way to get Martial Weapon Proficiency, and Life needs spontaneous conversion of prepared spells to cure spells.
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Pleasantly surprised by the Shaman.
Great flavor, but some of abilities (as seem common in this play-test) seem a bit, well, irresistible.
EX: Wave Strike: I have an image of a half dozen diminutive shamans using delayed actions and pushing a Gargantuan Construct off a cliff. Would prefer to see mechanics similar to those used for other abilities that mimic combat maneuvers requiring dice rolls rather than just auto-successes.
Clerics can also divert some of their wrath at Life Oracles to Shamans. With the Life Spirit & appropriate Feats you can channel healing as a standard, swift and move action in the same round. 3 channels for 4 uses, but yikes that's a lot of dice.
Also, not a fan of the use of "Hex" for their ability - would prefer to see that remain with Witches as it could be confusing if a character has both a Witch Hex class feature & a Shaman Hex class feature (such as through multi-classing into a Hexblade Magus). Sadly, most words that might substitute probably already have game terms associated with them. (Maybe "malocchio"? - but that may be a bit too enshrined in a specific culture. Manifest? ... hmmm)
Ignore the above if the intent is to be able to mix & match between hexes via Feats, Archtypes, etc. :)
-TimD
So... a MAD Oracle with a familiar, huh? Well, it is very flavorful and I really like that. But, all the rules seem to be just a re-flavored oracle with the familiar instead of a curse. It is made worse by the fact that it casts divine, cleric spells, too. I would have hoped for a powered down witch spell list (still get the healing, but not the worst of the curses). Also, the word, "hex", doesn't seem appropriate for the class's flavor. Furthermore, the hexes seem more like revelation abilities to me; nothing wrong with that, per se, but I think you just end up with a curseless oracle with a familiar as far as most of the rules go, which is a shame because there should be a more even divide between witch abilities and oracle abilities.
I would recommend calling the "spirit" and "wandering spirit" abilities to "totem" and "wandering totem" and then call the "hexes" "spirits" instead. That way each spirit (hex) power would have the flavor of being a different spirit or group of spirits in the servitude of a greater totem power that the shaman pays homage to. This would also grant the flavor of having a couple of spirits that always stay with the shaman (with the spirit/totem ability) and some that come and go from day to day (with the wandering spirit/totem) ability depending on unknowable factors and capriciousness.
I love the flexible nature of the wandering hex and wandering spirit abilities. I also love the modifications to the familiars and allowing them to deliver the hexes as well as gaining another unusual power, making it clear that these are spirit-possessed familiars. It is neat that they can be used in combat with some of these abilities, but we will have to see just how many players are willing to send their familiars, which are also their living conduit to the divine and living spellbook into combat. I love the idea for protected spell delivery creatures, but the thought of sending my source of power straight at the enemy is an unsettling concept as a player of a spellcaster. I mean it only has half my Hit Dice in HP and I am not really a frontline fighter to begin with. I would rather have a temporarily manifested, translucent spirit animal deliver my touch spell before sending in my living spellbook and conduit to the spirit world to do that, while Snuggles, my familiar hangs out with me. Perhaps it could be an ability with limited uses per day or maybe it is a rage-like ability that lets my familiar transform temporarily into an incorporeal, spirit form for a limited number of rounds per day or only lasts for the duration of the touch spell?
I think the class needs to decide on one mental ability score and stick with it. My pick would be Wisdom. Multiple ability score dependence won't help this class in any way. Some slight dependence on Charisma might be fine, but the way it is now, there is just too much reliance on Charisma for a lot of important abilities when Wisdom is already the spellcasting stat of choice for this class. That should get toned back.
I know I criticized a lot there, but I really do love the flavor of this class and I only criticize because I am seeing a lot of good stuff and even greater potential with this class. I think this could be a real winner.
Why would Shaman's need Charisma?
I saw this mentioned a few times, but aren't both their spells and hexes are based on Wisdom?
Oracle spells are based on Charisma. A witch's spells are based on intelligence. It seems odd that a mix of those two classes would rely on wisdom.
Oracle spells are based on Charisma. A witch's spells are based on intelligence. It seems odd that a mix of those two classes would rely on wisdom.Why would Shaman's need Charisma?
I saw this mentioned a few times, but aren't both their spells and hexes are based on Wisdom?
Funny enough, me and a friend saw the class and thought cleric before we thought witch or oracle. Not many complaints though. I like the idea of playing an urban battle shaman who switches a spirit on the side from day to day.
Another thought is that it might be a little weird to be a Shaman of Battle and get taxed for martial proficiency.
Not a fan of the Oracle or Witch, but can see this one getting a lot of use, and even being more appropriate than the Cleric or Druid as the main divine caster for some campaign settings.
If they split Metal out from Stone would they have all of the elements covered for all the classic real world element systems?
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I like a lot of it. There are some things just bothering me though...
First a class that is a merger of an int and cha caster became a wisdom caster... and other abilities are charisma based anyway....
The spell list chosen just feels off to me, almost feel it deserves it's own list.
The lore spell adding thing will interact with wandering spirit weirdly, it lets you change that more in some players mind than intended I beleive.
Do familiars gan an ability based on the wandering spirit too?
Think that's it for now!
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I for one welcome our new Shaman overlords. Good job, guys!
Can the Shaman learn Witch Hexes, or only the hexes mentioned in their spirit?Their Hex ability reads: ...At 2nd level, a shaman learns one hex, chosen from those available from her spirit...
So, pretty clear just the ones given to them by their Spirit, and then the Wandering Hex can obviously be chosen from between their Spirit or Wandering Spirit.
Which is great class design, because it means first, you don't have to drink from the firehose, and second, you can restrict hexes to appropriate, thematic choices without just paring down the whole witch hex list.
For the Shaman's Hexes, I think that they should have an alternate name, and each should have two options, one that is positive effect, where you can use it to benefit (The Life Spirit's Hex to Stabilize multiple people at once), and a negative effect (Give the Life Spirit's Stabilize Hex the ability to instead cause enemies to destabilize).
Also, this class seems to have more of the fluff of the Oracle, but the abilities of the Witch. In terms of Oracle, it just has the spell list, and is related to otherworldly beings. To make it more similar to the Oracle, there could be a temporary negative effect to the Shaman when you activate a Hex, depending on your Spirit (For example, being blinded for one round after using an ability from the Heavens Spirit) or the Spirit Hex you used (being blinded for one round after using Enveloping Void from the Heavens Spirit, and Fatigued from using Heaven's Leap from that same Spirit). The ability to summon a creature based on your chosen Spirit would also be rather good for this class.
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Disagree on quite a bit of this sadly. I feel like the shaman already has a lot of versatility (especially compared to the oracle, cleric, and witch) and doesn't need any more. I'm pretty certain already this will get tweaked back in power before final release, and that they won't be adding further class abilities (but maybe more Spirits).