a bonus feat perhaps? or spend spells to regain rage (the opposite of your 5th level suggestion)?
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Alrighty so if we drop the DR, and the improved uncanny dodge what abilities can we cram in there?
Alrighty first up at 5th level we can add in the Blood Fuel ability. I.e. spend a round of rage and regain a spell.
At 7th you have Burning Rage which adds your charisma modifier to damage spells while raging.
At 10th we can expend rounds of rage to add metamagic feats we know for free (I think a 2 to 1 ratio of rounds to levels is fair enough).
Three more levels of DR left to scrub. What else can we shove in?
Im against this, being a frontliner DR and Uncanny Dodge will help a lot.
Blood Fuel.... maybe.
Burning Rage is unnecessary, this Class has no problems when it comes to DPR.
Metamagic gets iffy since it's only a 4th level caster, you need to have the higher Level slot to put the spell in when applying Metamagic so this gets problematic.
Edit: On review Blood Fuel is also unnecessary, this class gets more spells than Paladins and Rangers.
the point was for SPELLS to be actually decent if one decides that's an option. his DPR elsewhere (like with his stonking great sword) is fine, yes.
|
well if you consider using rages in lieu of feats, you can throw out the adjusted level of the spell too, which makes meta magic work. say expend rage equal to lvl adjustment of the spell if you wish.
This makes buying metamagic very attractive, specially things like Quicken... but having to drop 4 rounds of rage to quicken a spell while raging would mean you've just dropped a total of 5+ rounds of rage in a single round.
He can cast at lvl 4, so odds are by then he's (say with a con of 16) he has 13 rounds of rage. He's burnt nearly half his rage for the day to do this.
With Bloodrage they are Awesome at Damage, on par with the Barbarian, you give them a bonus to Damage with Spells and it'll start to outdo the Sorcerer, I like that this class mixes both well, I do not want this to invalidate either.
until they cap out and youre either required to take/use intensify spell MM (which with sorc casting extends the action iirc, with no way around it like the magus) or have piddly spell damage, since you dont get any of the better spells for damage/CL.
quicken spell is out of the question due to low spell level cap, and you'd need an extra hand for a MM rod if you wanna keep up on the melee damage front.
|
|
With Bloodrage they are Awesome at Damage, on par with the Barbarian, you give them a bonus to Damage with Spells and it'll start to outdo the Sorcerer, I like that this class mixes both well, I do not want this to invalidate either.
Considering he only goes to lvl 4 in spell casting levels that are off the magus list.... so doubting he'll ever outdo a sorcerer... evah
|
|
well if you consider using rages in lieu of feats, you can throw out the adjusted level of the spell too, which makes meta magic work. say expend rage equal to lvl adjustment of the spell if you wish.
This makes buying metamagic very attractive, specially things like Quicken... but having to drop 4 rounds of rage to quicken a spell while raging would mean you've just dropped a total of 5+ rounds of rage in a single round.
He can cast at lvl 4, so odds are by then he's (say with a con of 16) he has 13 rounds of rage. He's burnt nearly half his rage for the day to do this.
okay I can see that working.
|
|
With Bloodrage they are Awesome at Damage, on par with the Barbarian, you give them a bonus to Damage with Spells and it'll start to outdo the Sorcerer, I like that this class mixes both well, I do not want this to invalidate either.until they cap out and youre either required to take/use intensify spell MM (which with sorc casting extends the action iirc, with no way around it like the magus) or have piddly spell damage, since you dont get any of the better spells for damage/CL.
quicken spell is out of the question due to low spell level cap, and you'd need an extra hand for a MM rod if you wanna keep up on the melee damage front.
My apologies but when you near 10th level and beyond I don't see this class trying to compete with a Sorcerer or Wizard in the Spell Damage department.
|
|
With Bloodrage they are Awesome at Damage, on par with the Barbarian, you give them a bonus to Damage with Spells and it'll start to outdo the Sorcerer, I like that this class mixes both well, I do not want this to invalidate either.Considering he only goes to lvl 4 in spell casting levels that are off the magus list.... so doubting he'll ever outdo a sorcerer... evah
Sorry, meant to say as their leveling I don't want the BR to outdo the Sorcerer, once the Sorcerer gets access to 5th level spells that stops being a concern.
My apologies but when you near 10th level and beyond I don't see this class trying to compete with a Sorcerer or Wizard in the Spell Damage department.With Bloodrage they are Awesome at Damage, on par with the Barbarian, you give them a bonus to Damage with Spells and it'll start to outdo the Sorcerer, I like that this class mixes both well, I do not want this to invalidate either.until they cap out and youre either required to take/use intensify spell MM (which with sorc casting extends the action iirc, with no way around it like the magus) or have piddly spell damage, since you dont get any of the better spells for damage/CL.
quicken spell is out of the question due to low spell level cap, and you'd need an extra hand for a MM rod if you wanna keep up on the melee damage front.
why?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
How about this instead:
Once per rage you may use a metamagic feat without adjusting the spell level of the spell you cast. In order to use this ability you must have raged for a number of rounds equal to the level modification of the metamagic feat.
This does a couple of things:
1. It makes him want to rage, and for a good period of time.
2. It doesn't cause him to nova as hard as he would if he had to just straight up burn rage for metamagic.
3. It means the longer you fight him the worse it is going to be for you, as he starts getting free metamagic on his spells.
4. It gives the player a reason to want to stretch combat out meaning longer combats that are (hopefully) more climatic and with more zing.
|
|
why?My apologies but when you near 10th level and beyond I don't see this class trying to compete with a Sorcerer or Wizard in the Spell Damage department.With Bloodrage they are Awesome at Damage, on par with the Barbarian, you give them a bonus to Damage with Spells and it'll start to outdo the Sorcerer, I like that this class mixes both well, I do not want this to invalidate either.until they cap out and youre either required to take/use intensify spell MM (which with sorc casting extends the action iirc, with no way around it like the magus) or have piddly spell damage, since you dont get any of the better spells for damage/CL.
quicken spell is out of the question due to low spell level cap, and you'd need an extra hand for a MM rod if you wanna keep up on the melee damage front.
Because then you start to raise questions of why play those classes when i can just play this one, who has more health and abilities.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
How about this instead:
Once per rage you may use a metamagic feat without adjusting the spell level of the spell you cast. In order to use this ability you must have raged for a number of rounds equal to the level modification of the metamagic feat.This does a couple of things:
1. It makes him want to rage, and for a good period of time.
2. It doesn't cause him to nova as hard as he would if he had to just straight up burn rage for metamagic.
3. It means the longer you fight him the worse it is going to be for you, as he starts getting free metamagic on his spells.
4. It gives the player a reason to want to stretch combat out meaning longer combats that are (hopefully) more climatic and with more zing.
Okay now this I REALLY like, definitely in favor of it. Kudos :3
Because then you start to raise questions of why play those classes when i can just play this one, who has more health and abilities.why?My apologies but when you near 10th level and beyond I don't see this class trying to compete with a Sorcerer or Wizard in the Spell Damage department.With Bloodrage they are Awesome at Damage, on par with the Barbarian, you give them a bonus to Damage with Spells and it'll start to outdo the Sorcerer, I like that this class mixes both well, I do not want this to invalidate either.until they cap out and youre either required to take/use intensify spell MM (which with sorc casting extends the action iirc, with no way around it like the magus) or have piddly spell damage, since you dont get any of the better spells for damage/CL.
quicken spell is out of the question due to low spell level cap, and you'd need an extra hand for a MM rod if you wanna keep up on the melee damage front.
yes, but those others arent made to be blasters--i find sorcerers and wizards are generally crazy control-monsters with a smattering of damage where needed after they've locked you down for the rest of the party to mop up. the magus list isnt quite as blessed, if memory serves.
okay I can see that working.well if you consider using rages in lieu of feats, you can throw out the adjusted level of the spell too, which makes meta magic work. say expend rage equal to lvl adjustment of the spell if you wish.
This makes buying metamagic very attractive, specially things like Quicken... but having to drop 4 rounds of rage to quicken a spell while raging would mean you've just dropped a total of 5+ rounds of rage in a single round.
He can cast at lvl 4, so odds are by then he's (say with a con of 16) he has 13 rounds of rage. He's burnt nearly half his rage for the day to do this.
Now you're getting it.
And bear in mind the sorcerer doesn't suddenly lose his job. The bloodrager doesn't suddenly gain as many spells to either cast or learn. He has what he has. The rage rounds serve as fuel to make those spells count. But this of course doesn't come without cost. If you fatigue the bloodrager his spellcasting magnificence goes kaput. He can't regain spells, he can't empower them, he's a fighter with no abilities and a bit of arcane casting.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Again we are just talking about baseline though -- if you want maximized optimal spell damage those classes will still be better.
They have more and higher damage spells, and abilities to raise the damage those spells do.
On an 'optimized spell damage' they are still going to be the go to classes and they can still be more than just spell damage too.
We would be looking at a 10d6+10(20) fireball at level 10 with a DC of 15 maybe twice a day compared to a 10d6+10 cone of cold from a wizard with a DC of 15 at least twice a day with 3 or more dragon's breath after that, with 4 plus fireballs after that, with more spells to come from the wizard.
This guy isn't going to be all spell damage all day even with my suggestions -- he's going to have to rely on martial prowess at least some times regardless...
It's just when he does lay down the boom it's going to actually hurt instead of be laughed at for being way too low level with way too low DC.
|
|
yes, but those others arent made to be blasters--i find sorcerers and wizards are generally crazy control-monsters with a smattering of damage where needed after they've locked you down for the rest of the party to mop up. the magus list isnt quite as blessed, if memory serves.Because then you start to raise questions of why play those classes when i can just play this one, who has more health and abilities.why?My apologies but when you near 10th level and beyond I don't see this class trying to compete with a Sorcerer or Wizard in the Spell Damage department.With Bloodrage they are Awesome at Damage, on par with the Barbarian, you give them a bonus to Damage with Spells and it'll start to outdo the Sorcerer, I like that this class mixes both well, I do not want this to invalidate either.until they cap out and youre either required to take/use intensify spell MM (which with sorc casting extends the action iirc, with no way around it like the magus) or have piddly spell damage, since you dont get any of the better spells for damage/CL.
quicken spell is out of the question due to low spell level cap, and you'd need an extra hand for a MM rod if you wanna keep up on the melee damage front.
Well then this is just a difference in the people we play with I guess, since all of groups with the Wizards and Sorcerers I've played with tend to be high on the Murder with Magic agenda.
|
|
okay I can see that working.well if you consider using rages in lieu of feats, you can throw out the adjusted level of the spell too, which makes meta magic work. say expend rage equal to lvl adjustment of the spell if you wish.
This makes buying metamagic very attractive, specially things like Quicken... but having to drop 4 rounds of rage to quicken a spell while raging would mean you've just dropped a total of 5+ rounds of rage in a single round.
He can cast at lvl 4, so odds are by then he's (say with a con of 16) he has 13 rounds of rage. He's burnt nearly half his rage for the day to do this.
Now you're getting it.
And bear in mind the sorcerer doesn't suddenly lose his job. The bloodrager doesn't suddenly gain as many spells to either cast or learn. He has what he has. The rage rounds serve as fuel to make those spells count. But this of course doesn't come without cost. If you fatigue the bloodrager his spellcasting magnificence goes kaput. He can't regain spells, he can't empower them, he's a fighter with no abilities and a bit of arcane casting.
And conversely the casties are screwed if you get them in an Anti-Magic Field :3
Part of the inherent problem with murder with magic is that it is not so effective.
This is the one guy that I could see in this one area giving the big spell casters a slight run for their money on doing something.
I mean think about that -- it's one small area of magic and even with my biggest bonus idea (the rampaging spell) he's still really not the best, he's just a bit ahead of someone that doesn't focus on murder by magic.
|
|
Again we are just talking about baseline though -- if you want maximized optimal spell damage those classes will still be better.
They have more and higher damage spells, and abilities to raise the damage those spells do.
On an 'optimized spell damage' they are still going to be the go to classes and they can still be more than just spell damage too.
We would be looking at a 10d6+10(20) fireball at level 10 with a DC of 15 maybe twice a day compared to a 10d6+10 cone of cold from a wizard with a DC of 15 at least twice a day with 3 or more dragon's breath after that, with 4 plus fireballs after that, with more spells to come from the wizard.
This guy isn't going to be all spell damage all day even with my suggestions -- he's going to have to rely on martial prowess at least some times regardless...
It's just when he does lay down the boom it's going to actually hurt instead of be laughed at for being way too low level with way too low DC.
Then thats a Cha thing, since the get Full BAB I don't see them getting 6th level spells.
|
|
that just simply wont happen at any lvl, I'm assuming you've read the class. They don't start casting until lvl 4, and that's off the magus list...
They get their first lvl 2 spell at 7, and lvl 3 at 10. which at lvl 10, your sorc is kicking out lvl 5 spells.
you're right (I'm having to jump between 4 spell lists atm and its inevitable that i miss something)
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Which with my rampaging spell and a decent charisma (say starting 16 or 18) means they will have an acceptable chance of the spell landing and stinging.
Without rampaging spell those damage spells are going to flop.
Again more spell levels isn't the solution -- just a kicker ability that pops the damage and DC up a little (ONLY on bloodrager spells) and a few more spells per day (at maximum 6 per day instead of 4).
Another argument for more spells per day.
The paladin draws from the cleric so to speak and has 4 spells per day of each level... just like the cleric.
The ranger draws from the druid so to speak and has 4 spells per day of each level... just like the druid.
So why shouldn't the bloodrager who pulls from the sorcerer have 6 spells per day of each level... just like the sorcerer?
Not more spells known, not more spell levels, just a few more per day and a bit of zing to help make using those offensive spells a decent choice instead of a trap option.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
the wizard and sorc also get access to bigger and better blasts if they decide to use them, while the bloodrager hits his first 4th level spell at 13th level (you know, right as PFS ends). the wizard is sitting on 7th level spells at this point, with the sorcerer slightly behind at 6th level spells. trying to keep his spell damage at least competitive seems fair, or it wouldnt be worth it to use them at all (in which case why in blazes would you use the magus list).
not to mention by the time he gets his "best" spells, most monsters will snicker at him behind their saves, especially if he ends up taking a -3 CL hit to line him up with the paladin/ranger (which others have brought up).
How about this instead:
Once per rage you may use a metamagic feat without adjusting the spell level of the spell you cast. In order to use this ability you must have raged for a number of rounds equal to the level modification of the metamagic feat.This does a couple of things:
1. It makes him want to rage, and for a good period of time.
2. It doesn't cause him to nova as hard as he would if he had to just straight up burn rage for metamagic.
3. It means the longer you fight him the worse it is going to be for you, as he starts getting free metamagic on his spells.
4. It gives the player a reason to want to stretch combat out meaning longer combats that are (hopefully) more climatic and with more zing.
Can't say I'm a fan of this. I like the idea behind it but it runs into weird game issues.
First, it encourages a player to rage for a few rounds before entering a combat. He effectively spends fewer rage rounds than the other option because he'll start combat already dropping metamagicked spells out of the blue.
Second, even if actual combat starts it encourages them not to really participate in a meaningful way. They could wade in with their sword, but by that point you probably don't care about spellcasting much anymore. It leaves them with the decision of either using up spells to just end the encounter, or saving their spells to do somethign neat with them.
Third, it sort of kills the bloodrager's mood when his non-spellcasting friend simply destroys the encounter before he can effectively. It's practically a dead ability.
Fourth, in the case of low end metamagic feats (empower, merciful, intensified, elemental) you're basically giving him free metamagic at no real cost. He rages, moves, maybe idly swings at a mook with a 15ft. reach polearm, aaanddd he's done, he's now got free access to nearly all his more potent metamagic.
Now with the option originally presented he can nova, but it leaves him in the unfortunate position of not being able to rage. And if he can't rage, he's lost pretty much his whole class set of abilities.
|
|
the wizard and sorc also get access to bigger and better blasts if they decide to use them, while the bloodrager hits his first 4th level spell at 13th level (you know, right as PFS ends). the wizard is sitting on 7th level spells at this point, with the sorcerer slightly behind at 6th level spells. trying to keep his spell damage at least competitive seems fair, or it wouldnt be worth it to use them at all (in which case why in blazes would you use the magus list). not to mention by the time he gets his "best" spells, most monsters will snicker at him behind their saves, especially if he ends up taking a -3 CL hit to line him up with the paladin/ranger.
But then the BR can pound said monsters in fine red paste with a great sword, while the Sorcerer cannot.
Those same monsters will also be fine making saves vs. the Sorcerer spell even at the level, there's kinda a discrepancy in progression of saves vs. Save DC.
|
|
How about this instead:
Once per rage you may use a metamagic feat without adjusting the spell level of the spell you cast. In order to use this ability you must have raged for a number of rounds equal to the level modification of the metamagic feat.This does a couple of things:
1. It makes him want to rage, and for a good period of time.
2. It doesn't cause him to nova as hard as he would if he had to just straight up burn rage for metamagic.
3. It means the longer you fight him the worse it is going to be for you, as he starts getting free metamagic on his spells.
4. It gives the player a reason to want to stretch combat out meaning longer combats that are (hopefully) more climatic and with more zing.
Can't say I'm a fan of this. I like the idea behind it but it runs into weird game issues.
First, it encourages a player to rage for a few rounds before entering a combat. He effectively spends fewer rage rounds than the other option because he'll start combat already dropping metamagicked spells out of the blue.
Second, even if actual combat starts it encourages them not to really participate in a meaningful way. They could wade in with their sword, but by that point you probably don't care about spellcasting much anymore. It leaves them with the decision of either using up spells to just end the encounter, or saving their spells to do somethign neat with them.
Third, it sort of kills the bloodrager's mood when his non-spellcasting friend simply destroys the encounter before he can effectively. It's practically a dead ability.
Fourth, in the case of low end metamagic feats (empower, merciful, intensified, elemental) you're basically giving him free metamagic at no real cost. He rages, moves, maybe idly swings at a mook with a 15ft. reach polearm, aaanddd he's done, he's now got free access to nearly all his more potent metamagic.
Now with the option originally presented he can nova, , but it leaves him in the unfortunate position of not being able to rage. And if he can't rage, he's lost pretty much his whole class set of abilities.
Don't worry guys, Spirit Bomb will totally work this time.
dont forget cu chulainn, kamina, yusuke yurameshi, kurapika (hunter x hunter), sasuke uchiha (while itachi might be a better slayer/shadowdancer), naruto uzumaki, one of several ichigo builds, monkey d luffy (abberant for extendo reach, fly or haste in bloodrage for gear 2nd, and so on) etc. etc.Ah heck -- go ahead and play a buffing blood rager too -- the class can currently handle it, and it wouldn't take that much to let it handle the force choking, force lightning lightsaber rampager of death that the universe fears too.
That's my big thing, with a few simple changes on minor abilities this beautiful class can handle what everyone wants.
I'm willing to say in my opinion this class has the potential to be one of the best classes Paizo has ever designed.
LOTS of flavor and multiple ways to play it and lots of choices for how you get there.
Inspiration goes from Natsu of fairy tail, to Anakin Skywalker, to Gohan, and further.
Daemon bloodline for Ichigo. Don't forget Fenris (Dragon Age II) or Justice (Dragon Age: Awakening) or the Spirit Warriors in general (Also from Dragon Age: Awakenings).
What about the ability to spend bloodrage rounds to add dice to spell damage? 1 round to d6 maybe? That's if they want to oomph their spell casting ability. I don't know how I feel about that point yet.
the wizard and sorc also get access to bigger and better blasts if they decide to use them, while the bloodrager hits his first 4th level spell at 13th level (you know, right as PFS ends). the wizard is sitting on 7th level spells at this point, with the sorcerer slightly behind at 6th level spells. trying to keep his spell damage at least competitive seems fair, or it wouldnt be worth it to use them at all (in which case why in blazes would you use the magus list). not to mention by the time he gets his "best" spells, most monsters will snicker at him behind their saves, especially if he ends up taking a -3 CL hit to line him up with the paladin/ranger.But then the BR can pound said monsters in fine red paste with a great sword, while the Sorcerer cannot.
Well, yes. The sorcerer just picks any slew of things that are better than damage spells to launch next.
Trying to pace the sorcerer in spell damage with the BR like this is the equivalent of pacing the supersonic aircarft in your rocket car. It seems like a magnificent achievement but you're still eating dirt.
the wizard and sorc also get access to bigger and better blasts if they decide to use them, while the bloodrager hits his first 4th level spell at 13th level (you know, right as PFS ends). the wizard is sitting on 7th level spells at this point, with the sorcerer slightly behind at 6th level spells. trying to keep his spell damage at least competitive seems fair, or it wouldnt be worth it to use them at all (in which case why in blazes would you use the magus list). not to mention by the time he gets his "best" spells, most monsters will snicker at him behind their saves, especially if he ends up taking a -3 CL hit to line him up with the paladin/ranger.But then the BR can pound said monsters in fine red paste with a great sword, while the Sorcerer cannot.
Those same monsters will also be fine making saves vs. the Sorcerer spell even at the level, there's kinda a discrepancy in progression of saves vs. Save DC.
then i raise the question again; why use the magus list on the then? it's filled with damaging spells, and since using them with the BR is a Bad Idea, you're just a kneecapped cabalist magus (sans spellstrike/combat) at that point, or a barbarian who is useless in an antimagic field, which sorta defeats the purpose of the class fluff entirely.
|
|
What about the ability to spend bloodrage rounds to add dice to spell damage? 1 round to d6 maybe? That's if they want to oomph their spell casting ability. I don't know how I feel about that point yet.
It's not that I see something like this as bad idea, or even the + Cha or + HD to dmg, its just that they're already awesome Melee DPRs that also making them be awesome at Magic DPR I think would be giving them too much.
|
|
you know, maybe move their casting stat to con? =D Much like the scarred witch doctor is?
Suggested awesome flavor power.
Once they've taken damage in combat they can apply a metamagic feat to their spells without increasing the casting time.
a possible consideration of the above mentioned power would be how it interacts with things like Viscious weapon properties. (Although to be honest it'd make that a enchantment worth taking!)
|
|
then i raise the question again; why use the magus list on the then? it's filled with damaging spells, and since using them with the BR is a Bad Idea, you're just a kneecapped cabalist magus (sans spellstrike/combat) at that point, or a barbarian who is useless in an antimagic field, which sorta defeats the purpose of the class fluff entirely.the wizard and sorc also get access to bigger and better blasts if they decide to use them, while the bloodrager hits his first 4th level spell at 13th level (you know, right as PFS ends). the wizard is sitting on 7th level spells at this point, with the sorcerer slightly behind at 6th level spells. trying to keep his spell damage at least competitive seems fair, or it wouldnt be worth it to use them at all (in which case why in blazes would you use the magus list). not to mention by the time he gets his "best" spells, most monsters will snicker at him behind their saves, especially if he ends up taking a -3 CL hit to line him up with the paladin/ranger.But then the BR can pound said monsters in fine red paste with a great sword, while the Sorcerer cannot.
Those same monsters will also be fine making saves vs. the Sorcerer spell even at the level, there's kinda a discrepancy in progression of saves vs. Save DC.
Because the Magus SL has a bunch of buffs and combat enhancing spells, and with full BAB they're far from useless in an AMF.
What about the ability to spend bloodrage rounds to add dice to spell damage? 1 round to d6 maybe? That's if they want to oomph their spell casting ability. I don't know how I feel about that point yet.It's not that I see something like this as bad idea, or even the + Cha or + HD to dmg, its just that they're already awesome Melee DPRs that also making them be awesome at Magic DPR I think would be giving them too much.
The trick is making sure they can't do both at the same time without difficulty. Forcing them to choose between metamagic feats and combat feats is a good start. As is taking away their innate defenses (can't learn that Mirror Image spell if you're loading up on blasty things). If you base rage on charisma instead of con you make the stat useful to both, but the frontliner is going to want con as well and will need to compromise.
|
|
The trick is making sure they can't do both at the same time without difficulty. Forcing them to choose between metamagic feats and combat feats is a good start. As is taking away their innate defenses (can't learn that Mirror Image spell if you're loading up on blasty things). If you base rage on charisma instead of con you make the stat useful to both, but the frontliner is going to want con as well and will need to compromise.What about the ability to spend bloodrage rounds to add dice to spell damage? 1 round to d6 maybe? That's if they want to oomph their spell casting ability. I don't know how I feel about that point yet.It's not that I see something like this as bad idea, or even the + Cha or + HD to dmg, its just that they're already awesome Melee DPRs that also making them be awesome at Magic DPR I think would be giving them too much.
And also cuts into equipment, should I get the Crown or another +1 to my weapon?
How about this instead:
Once per rage you may use a metamagic feat without adjusting the spell level of the spell you cast. In order to use this ability you must have raged for a number of rounds equal to the level modification of the metamagic feat.This does a couple of things:
1. It makes him want to rage, and for a good period of time.
2. It doesn't cause him to nova as hard as he would if he had to just straight up burn rage for metamagic.
3. It means the longer you fight him the worse it is going to be for you, as he starts getting free metamagic on his spells.
4. It gives the player a reason to want to stretch combat out meaning longer combats that are (hopefully) more climatic and with more zing.
Can't say I'm a fan of this. I like the idea behind it but it runs into weird game issues.
First, it encourages a player to rage for a few rounds before entering a combat. He effectively spends fewer rage rounds than the other option because he'll start combat already dropping metamagicked spells out of the blue.
Second, even if actual combat starts it encourages them not to really participate in a meaningful way. They could wade in with their sword, but by that point you probably don't care about spellcasting much anymore. It leaves them with the decision of either using up spells to just end the encounter, or saving their spells to do somethign neat with them.
Third, it sort of kills the bloodrager's mood when his non-spellcasting friend simply destroys the encounter before he can effectively. It's practically a dead ability.
Fourth, in the case of low end metamagic feats (empower, merciful, intensified, elemental) you're basically giving him free metamagic at no real cost. He rages, moves, maybe idly swings at a mook with a 15ft. reach polearm, aaanddd he's done, he's now got free access to nearly all his more potent metamagic.
On the first -- if he's burning up rage out of combat that's his choice and not really an effective one.
On the second -- I disagree, as it means he can wade in and get bloody and if his opponent drops (or not if he has quicken spell) he can decide to let loose one round instead of swinging again -- it can give him an option in the middle of combat that he wouldn't otherwise have.
On the third -- but it isn't wasted, after all he can still attack like any other martial character during the period. He doesn't actually lose anything if he doesn't use it. It's a passive benefit attached to an actual resource burn -- raging is a good choice for him anyways.
On the fourth -- yeah, but those low level metamagics generally don't do much and if he wants to do it again he's got to drop out of rage, go through the fatigue and then start rage up again. That's two rounds of fatigue just to get another metamagic.
In my mind this all adds up very well.
If he wastes rage to preempt his metamagic, well it's no worse than the wizard that wastes a spell to climb a wall that he doesn't need to climb or a paladin burning a lay on hands before combat or any other prebuffing people do -- he's still expending a primary resource.
About the only place I see a problem with it is if someone takes quicken spell at level 5 and then starts using quicken spell before the primary casters do, and it wouldn't take much verbage to fix that (for example: You cannot use this ability on a metamagic feat has a higher level adjustment than 1/4 your bloodrager level.)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Because the Magus SL has a bunch of buffs and combat enhancing spells, and with full BAB they're far from useless in an AMF.then i raise the question again; why use the magus list on the then? it's filled with damaging spells, and since using them with the BR is a Bad Idea, you're just a kneecapped cabalist magus (sans spellstrike/combat) at that point, or a barbarian who is useless in an antimagic field, which sorta defeats the purpose of the class fluff entirely.the wizard and sorc also get access to bigger and better blasts if they decide to use them, while the bloodrager hits his first 4th level spell at 13th level (you know, right as PFS ends). the wizard is sitting on 7th level spells at this point, with the sorcerer slightly behind at 6th level spells. trying to keep his spell damage at least competitive seems fair, or it wouldnt be worth it to use them at all (in which case why in blazes would you use the magus list). not to mention by the time he gets his "best" spells, most monsters will snicker at him behind their saves, especially if he ends up taking a -3 CL hit to line him up with the paladin/ranger.But then the BR can pound said monsters in fine red paste with a great sword, while the Sorcerer cannot.
Those same monsters will also be fine making saves vs. the Sorcerer spell even at the level, there's kinda a discrepancy in progression of saves vs. Save DC.
then here we are again with them relegated to "buff and wade in only", which completely ignores the fluff (and started this whole thing to begin with).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The trick is making sure they can't do both at the same time without difficulty. Forcing them to choose between metamagic feats and combat feats is a good start. As is taking away their innate defenses (can't learn that Mirror Image spell if you're loading up on blasty things). If you base rage on charisma instead of con you make the stat useful to both, but the frontliner is going to want con as well and will need to compromise.What about the ability to spend bloodrage rounds to add dice to spell damage? 1 round to d6 maybe? That's if they want to oomph their spell casting ability. I don't know how I feel about that point yet.It's not that I see something like this as bad idea, or even the + Cha or + HD to dmg, its just that they're already awesome Melee DPRs that also making them be awesome at Magic DPR I think would be giving them too much.
I could live with charisma based rage rounds.
I don't think they will be both awesome at martial DPR and magic DPR. AT BEST I think we'll get good magic DPR, even with the stuff I suggested, and even then a limited number of times any given day.
I do like the current spells known table for them -- it does really make you pick and choose what theme you want to have for your character.
Personally I'm not as keen on the metamagic stuff -- feels too sophisticated for the bloodrager.
I would rather it be more like:
Wizard, "Hey did you use the intensify metamagic on that spell."
Bloodrager, "What's that? I just blasted him."
Wizard, "Yeah but that was a mean blast."
Bloodrager, "Yeah well I tend to be mean when I'm angry."
|
|
then here we are again with them relegated to "buff and wade in only", which completely ignores the fluff (and started this whole thing to begin with).Because the Magus SL has a bunch of buffs and combat enhancing spells, and with full BAB they're far from useless in an AMF.then i raise the question again; why use the magus list on the then? it's filled with damaging spells, and since using them with the BR is a Bad Idea, you're just a kneecapped cabalist magus (sans spellstrike/combat) at that point, or a barbarian who is useless in an antimagic field, which sorta defeats the purpose of the class fluff entirely.the wizard and sorc also get access to bigger and better blasts if they decide to use them, while the bloodrager hits his first 4th level spell at 13th level (you know, right as PFS ends). the wizard is sitting on 7th level spells at this point, with the sorcerer slightly behind at 6th level spells. trying to keep his spell damage at least competitive seems fair, or it wouldnt be worth it to use them at all (in which case why in blazes would you use the magus list). not to mention by the time he gets his "best" spells, most monsters will snicker at him behind their saves, especially if he ends up taking a -3 CL hit to line him up with the paladin/ranger.But then the BR can pound said monsters in fine red paste with a great sword, while the Sorcerer cannot.
Those same monsters will also be fine making saves vs. the Sorcerer spell even at the level, there's kinda a discrepancy in progression of saves vs. Save DC.
Okay i'm sorry but what fluff are you talking about? It's getting hard to keep track of everything.
Okay i'm sorry but what fluff are you talking about? It's getting hard to keep track of everything.then here we are again with them relegated to "buff and wade in only", which completely ignores the fluff (and started this whole thing to begin with).Because the Magus SL has a bunch of buffs and combat enhancing spells, and with full BAB they're far from useless in an AMF.then i raise the question again; why use the magus list on the then? it's filled with damaging spells, and since using them with the BR is a Bad Idea, you're just a kneecapped cabalist magus (sans spellstrike/combat) at that point, or a barbarian who is useless in an antimagic field, which sorta defeats the purpose of the class fluff entirely.the wizard and sorc also get access to bigger and better blasts if they decide to use them, while the bloodrager hits his first 4th level spell at 13th level (you know, right as PFS ends). the wizard is sitting on 7th level spells at this point, with the sorcerer slightly behind at 6th level spells. trying to keep his spell damage at least competitive seems fair, or it wouldnt be worth it to use them at all (in which case why in blazes would you use the magus list). not to mention by the time he gets his "best" spells, most monsters will snicker at him behind their saves, especially if he ends up taking a -3 CL hit to line him up with the paladin/ranger.But then the BR can pound said monsters in fine red paste with a great sword, while the Sorcerer cannot.
Those same monsters will also be fine making saves vs. the Sorcerer spell even at the level, there's kinda a discrepancy in progression of saves vs. Save DC.
While many ferocious people can tap into a deep reservoir of rage somewhere in their very being, bloodragers have a more intrinsic power, one that seethes in their blood. Like sorcerers, bloodragers’ blood surges with arcane power. Many of their kin use this power primarily for spellcasting, but bloodragers enter an altered state where their bloodline becomes manifest—rage becomes reality, where the potency of strange ancestral unions and deeds lashes out with supernatural furry with devastating ends. And while in these states, they can as near-instinct cast some arcane spells. Fast, violent, and seemingly unstoppable, the bloodragers’ magic is murder.
bolded for emphasis.
the 'seething with magic' thing also helps, but is more implicit than what's outright stated in the text|
|
honestly between the full BAB, the bloodlines, and the stuff we have present already, just letting them fuel their metamagic with their blood seems pretty nifty, if they are two handing it, (if we went with my idea) they'd spend 6 rounds of rage to a) still spell b) quicken and c) rage that round (and they'd still use that spell slot)
Now at higher levels of play, that's still a decent chunk of rage, but lets them do something pretty unique.
hell how cool would it be if say at lvl 10 you could do a quickened, stilled, empowered, maximixed spell! of course to do such, you'd be burning 4+1+3+3... 11 rounds of rage...
The trick is making sure they can't do both at the same time without difficulty. Forcing them to choose between metamagic feats and combat feats is a good start. As is taking away their innate defenses (can't learn that Mirror Image spell if you're loading up on blasty things). If you base rage on charisma instead of con you make the stat useful to both, but the frontliner is going to want con as well and will need to compromise.What about the ability to spend bloodrage rounds to add dice to spell damage? 1 round to d6 maybe? That's if they want to oomph their spell casting ability. I don't know how I feel about that point yet.It's not that I see something like this as bad idea, or even the + Cha or + HD to dmg, its just that they're already awesome Melee DPRs that also making them be awesome at Magic DPR I think would be giving them too much.I could live with charisma based rage rounds.
I don't think they will be both awesome at martial DPR and magic DPR. AT BEST I think we'll get good magic DPR, even with the stuff I suggested, and even then a limited number of times any given day.
I do like the current spells known table for them -- it does really make you pick and choose what theme you want to have for your character.
Personally I'm not as keen on the metamagic stuff -- feels too sophisticated for the bloodrager.
I would rather it be more like:
Wizard, "Hey did you use the intensify metamagic on that spell."
Bloodrager, "What's that? I just blasted him."
Wizard, "Yeah but that was a mean blast."
Bloodrager, "Yeah well I tend to be mean when I'm angry."
And then with all that you listed we're forced to ask. "Why bother then?"
Remember I'm thinking of abilities that potentially allow the BR to be an effective caster with a side order of melee. What you described is melee with a side order of spells.
In my mind the guy who wants to use this ability is selecting metamagic feats over combat feats. Rather than Armor Expert, he grabbed MAgical Knack, rather than a Belt of Strength he grabbed a Headband of Charisma.
I say if we're going to push him towards being a very narrow ragecaster we might as well let him go the whole way and give him a fair shot at being one or the other. A once per rage ability like that is a nice add on to what I described above, or perhaps in addition to somethign else, but it does nothing to push me into thinking of him as a caster. If nothing else it makes me think of just grabbing quickened spell and using it to buff fast. :)
But it's getting rather late and my insomniac mind is starting not to make sense. So I'll continue this line of thinkign later when I've had more than 3 hours of sleep over the course of two days.
Cheers gents.
But it's getting rather late and my insomniac mind is starting not to make sense. So I'll continue this line of thinkign later when I've had more than 3 hours of sleep over the course of two days.
Cheers gents.
'night!
|
|
"While many ferocious people can tap into a deep reservoir of rage somewhere in their very being, bloodragers have a more intrinsic power, one that seethes in their blood. Like sorcerers, bloodragers’ blood surges with arcane power. Many of their kin use this power primarily for spellcasting, but bloodragers enter an altered state where their bloodline becomes manifest—rage becomes reality, where the potency of strange ancestral unions and deeds lashes out with supernatural furry with devastating ends. And while in these states, they can as near-instinct cast some arcane spells. Fast, violent, and seemingly unstoppable, the bloodragers’ magic is murder."
okay, I see. And once again this comes down to perception, when I first heard of this class I thought it was gonna be a frontliner with magical backup, when I read that I thought it was gonna be a Frontliner with magical backup, and now that I see it I'm thinking I was right.
And the last part is also open to opinion, Since I see it as an euphemism calling back to "Many of their kin use this power primarily for spellcasting, but bloodragers enter an altered state where their bloodline becomes manifest" when it mentions that the "bloodragers’ magic is murder."