After 9th level overland travel is a non-issue.
The most common way I have seen to travel cross country is to teleport. If the PCs have never been there they can find someone in town who has and read his mind or scry on someone who is there.
Assuming that does not work a druid can turn into a huge flying creature and carry the party. Weight is no problem with muleback cords and ant haul.
Overland flight and portable hole can allow a mage to carry the group.
At higher levels you have greater teleport, items of flying, wind walk, double gate, and more I have not even thought of.
With all that said
Why would a modual written in this range present as a challenge the need to cover 600 miles in two weeks? The mod will even spend several pages on encounters that can happen along the way.
I think at this level BBEGs should assume that the murder hobos that are coming for them will not be walking and plan accordingly.
At least dungeons make sense at this level because then the PCs can not go "Wow that balcony looks nice lets skip all the guards and jump who ever is in that room. I got the dim door!"
Sorry for the rant.
because PC's want loot from those those encounters from walking across land also, Those encounters are designed to make sure the pc's are of the correct level to take on said BBEG. Pc's may not want to waste funds on portable hole, or they don't have a druid in the party ect.
They are written with a base level that any character can preform that is why. what if the entire party is made of fighter, Ranger, bard and Paladin, not a lot of flight in that party, so how would they get there. they walk. that is why they are written that way.
The party might be able to use spell resources or magic items to make travel easier - but not every party will actually have the needed spells or items to do so.
The best thing to do is for the module to state how far the party must travel and how quickly they need to get there, and then leave it to the party to decide method of travel to meet those goals.
Otherwise every module around that level would have to include scrolls or what have you that enable the travel methods you assume that every party will have simply by being of appropriate level.
Last, but not least - let's look at each of the methods for travel you mention.
Teleport - works fine at 9th level... unless you have a party of more than 4 people, or that includes large characters - that whole "you plus 1 willing medium or smaller creature per 3 caster levels, and large creatures count as 2 medium ones" thing can mean needing to use multiple of your highest level spells, and hope for no off-target landings as you take part of your team to the destination, teleport back, and take the rest of the team to the destination.
Huge Flying Druid - again, the party size might be too high to carry the whole party regardless of their weight... and you are including more items/spells that the party might not have, and may actually choose not to have since each choice made is giving up some other option that might have a more notable impact on the given campaign.
Overland Flight Plus Portable Hole - unless the mage in question has the means to resurrect his party upon landing, or the party are already undead or constructs, this is really just a way to kill your party and escape the country.
And last but not least on my list of how you are over-estimating the benefit of faster travel than a good horse can provide - you are taking off to fight the bad guy and have two options: A) arrive in time and with a chance at being "full power" or B) arrive earlier with a guarantee that you are missing some possible resources.
I think it was SKR who wrote in this forum that the "scry and fry" tactic wasn't viable in a well-written adventure, because you don't WANT to miss all the things that come between the beginning and the end of a dungeon; whether it's loot or information or simply an understanding of how/why/the circumstances of the bad guy at the end, etc. So too with a journey.
"Life is a journey, not a destination."
- Steven Tyler, legendary bard.
Probably because it's the default 'standard' mode of travel. Every group is unique and it's up to the GM to make adjustments - if paizo tried to anticipate every possible means of travel and provide alternate encounters/options for each, they'd never get around to the actual module.
Welcome to E6, my friend. Or maybe E8, which probably works better in PF.
Owly wrote: I think it was SKR who wrote in this forum that the "scry and fry" tactic wasn't viable in a well-written adventure, because you don't WANT to miss all the things that come between the beginning and the end of a dungeon; whether it's loot or information or simply an understanding of how/why/the circumstances of the bad guy at the end, etc. So too with a journey.
"Life is a journey, not a destination."
- Steven Tyler, legendary bard.
I do not see how this make that tactic unviable.
KainPen wrote:
They are written with a base level that any character can preform that is why. what if the entire party is made of fighter, Ranger, bard and Paladin, not a lot of flight in that party, so how would they get there. they walk. that is why they are written that way.
THis is an example of what Kirth gensen call "narrative umbalance". A full spellcaster can just bypass pages of an adventure made this way.
At higher levels, it is better to just not assume anything, specially something as common as teleport.
Owly wrote: ...whether it's loot or information or simply an understanding of how/why/the circumstances of the bad guy at the end, etc. So too with a journey.
Players will just P&M about how they don't have enough loot or information and accuse the DM of doing a poor job when their teleporting shenanigans prove to have hidden costs. How will they know otherwise?
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We generally don't assume that folks walk overland once the adventure goes above 9th level. In most higher level adventures, we present that information in case the PCs do so, but generally don't focus on the overland travel unless that's the whole point of the adventure.
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I generally prefer the scenic route, personally.
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Wouldn't it be better to just write a game without long range teleports?
What do they actually add to the game that they needed to make the jump from 3.5 to PF?
Wow, thanks for commenting in my thread James. I will admit that knowledge of all the mods is incomplete and you correct. In the ones I have picked up though much of the adventure could be short circuited or skipped by not walking.
in particular I am thing of the carrion crown AP that assumes walking travel until the last book. In book 6 the solution is pretty good but my PCs still got around the traps. Not going to complain since it took two windwalks, life bubble, and control weather to get there. I just wish more of what I have run did not assume that PC will walk.
Again I have only looked at so much so I might very well be wrong about how things go. Also i have the a group of players that will almost always try to get to boss with out any intervening encounters and spend a great deal of effort to do so. This might have jaded me a bit.
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Atarlost wrote: Wouldn't it be better to just write a game without long range teleports?
What do they actually add to the game that they needed to make the jump from 3.5 to PF?
They add that the game is set within a fantasy world in which all sorts of magic and the paranormal exists.
Transcending the limits of mundane transportation has been something people have dreamed of for the history of the human race. Whether it was imagining people that could fly to our modern day dreams of faster than light travel.
It's not necessary to fantasy, but it does evoke key parts of the appeal of having magical powers and is something that frequently appears in fantasy fiction.
Mathius wrote:
The most common way I have seen to travel cross country is to teleport. If the PCs have never been there they can find someone in town who has and read his mind or scry on someone who is there.
How about if the location is so arcane or legendary you can't find any living person who has been there? And Scrying doesn't tell you where they are, and of course if you don;t know anyone there, you can't scry, either.
And, yes, once can sometimes skip months of overland travel that way, which could take months of real time, and not get to the "good parts" until then. The players might get bored with bandits, animals and other things that don;t challenge them.
Or the DM might just have a dungeon set up for 11th level PCs, but after two months the Pc's are now 13th, screwing the balance up.
Werebat wrote: Welcome to E6, my friend. Or maybe E8, which probably works better in PF. Welcome to boredom. You can have it.
DrDeth wrote: Werebat wrote: Welcome to E6, my friend. Or maybe E8, which probably works better in PF. Welcome to boredom. You can have it. I can't remember the last time I found Game of Thrones 'boring', and I doubt anyone in that series would be considered any higher than 6th or 8th level.
I've found that the higher level campaigns one needs, the less imaginative they tend to be. High level game play is more for power gamers or video gamers than actual role-players.
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That's not entirely fair, Wiggz.
While I, too, much prefer lower level games, part of the problem with higher level scenarios has to do with the fact that once player characters possess magic that can alter reality, any challenge to them is based in an arbitrariness that either sets their abilities at naught, effectively placing them once more on the bottom rung of reality—the next level of reality, that is ... or has them beginning another climb that loses its savor for all but the most ego-maniacal. The ability to effectively challenge such individuals without the game becoming a tiresome cavalcade of the awe-inspiring reduced to the ordinary is a task beyond most DMs—including the professionals. Paizo's likely made the right choice by stopping at 20th level; anything more often descends into a nigh-impossible attempt to make bigger seem better.
It can be done, but it takes more talent than of which most writers are capable.
In short ... if everyone's a b@d@$$, no one is.
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Wiggz wrote: I can't remember the last time I found Game of Thrones 'boring', and I doubt anyone in that series would be considered any higher than 6th or 8th level. Comments like this are always amusing to me.
You say you don't see anyone in Game of Thrones (more accurately, A Song of Ice and Fire) as being higher than level 6 or 8... and the Game of Thrones Role-Playing game that used the d20 system had starting characters of up to 4th level.
Also, considering that Game of Thrones deals with martial characters which are seen fighting off numerous lesser warriors or being stunningly overmatched to their single opponent, I'd say we are looking at seriously high-level characters - I'd personal estimate Bron at around 12th level.
Wiggz wrote: I've found that the higher level campaigns one needs, the less imaginative they tend to be. High level game play is more for power gamers or video gamers than actual role-players. This makes me laugh so hard I cry - but then I stop laughing and am instead offended and confused.
High level play requires just as much (if not more) imagination as low level play, and to imply that I must be a power gamer because I like to tell stories that involve the types of plot-lines that work better at higher level (such as facing down great wyrm dragons, dukes of hell, or other potent monsters) and happen to enjoy using spells more powerful than 3rd or 4th level.
...and for the record, video games are much to limited in scope and ability to allow me to do as I wish to keep my attention - so I play table-top RPGs instead, and like my video games to be simple and to the point (such as Super Mario Brothers).
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Because that's how a lot of groups travel.
Instantaneous transportation of matter is at times a plot device, created to expedite story.
On other occasions, though, it serves as an impediment, allowing participants to circumvent what would prove to be interesting story developments.
There's always a way, I've found, to construct a fluffy reason to disallow teleportation and/or flight when required to enhance the narrative and the enjoyment of all—all but the people who can't stand actually having to play through the planned adventure rather than skipping to the end.
Now if the characters find a way around your circumvention, that's another matter. Arbitrarily saying "no" when players have exercised their creativity (as opposed to their lungs whining) is bad form.
Wiggz wrote: I've found that the higher level campaigns one needs, the less imaginative they tend to be. High level game play is more for power gamers or video gamers than actual role-players. I've found exactly the opposite. The less imaginative players tend to become frustrated after discovering that all of their low-level tactics can't be used effectively at all levels of play and tend to stick to lower levels of play because the learning curve is easier.
_
Short answer to the original OP: it's much easier to cut encounters on the fly than add them.
-TimD
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Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Mathius wrote: After 9th level overland travel is a non-issue.
The most common way I have seen to travel cross country is to teleport. If the PCs have never been there they can find someone in town who has and read his mind or scry on someone who is there.
Assuming that does not work a druid can turn into a huge flying creature and carry the party. Weight is no problem with muleback cords and ant haul.
Overland flight and portable hole can allow a mage to carry the group.
At higher levels you have greater teleport, items of flying, wind walk, double gate, and more I have not even thought of.
With all that said
Players who rely on corner rules can count on DM's who take into account the consequences of using such rules.
1. There is no way to get a reliable teleport fix using this method. The teleport mishap table exists for a reason, and missing the aim on a coastal city will wind up calling for some unscheduled Swim checks, and most likely a sea encounter as well. Greater Teleport requires some degree of familliarity with the place. It's an absolutely useless spell for going to somewhere that is completely unknown to you. (and keep in mind that PC's and NPC's don't get to use the same quality of maps that you have access to as a GM.)
2. Muleback cords allow for much, but not for this kind of abuse.
3. And those folks in the portable hole are going to breathe how? Overland Flight is only marginally better than foot movement, and no improvement at all over regular mounted travel. Plus you really do stick out like a sore thumb.
As for higher level play, that's going to be a lot more idiosyncratic answer as High level play can go a wide variety of ways. However I interpret magic in the most restrictive ways possible as opposed to being overly permissive. It's the latter sort of DM that tends to find that the casters become the dominant species of their worlds and everyone else is merely a cheering band.
Overland Flight is much better than mounted travel. Mounts have to follow the path, flying creatures don't. It might be 20 miles from town to town, as the crow flies but it's a 40 mile trip because of the winding path over a mountain. Not only that, mountain travel slows the movement down substantially.
Mounted travel is only better than flight if you're racing across a flat, featureless plane with no deviations in the ground.
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Jumping ahead is a quick way to... meet something that will eat you.
for number 3 it has 10 mins worth of air per portiable hole. same for bags of holding, so every 8 mins you land let eveyone out stretch their legs and get back in. My group did this last game I DM, they used wind walk to get the job done since you go at 60 miles per hour. covering 600 miles is 10 hour trip, give or take an extra hour and half for stops frequant stops. Perfectly do able at level 11. in which you get the spell. It is a lot faster then walking.
Travel time allows for crafting. I'd like a couple more Pearls of Power before we get into that dungeon thankyouverymuch.
DrDeth wrote: Werebat wrote: Welcome to E6, my friend. Or maybe E8, which probably works better in PF. Welcome to boredom. You can have it. If you are a fighter, it's not like the game changes for you from lvl 6 to 20. You'll still just full attack. If you are a barb you'll rage and full attack, I guess.
Wiggz wrote:
I've found that the higher level campaigns one needs, the less imaginative they tend to be. High level game play is more for power gamers or video gamers than actual role-players.
I can't speak for your experiences, but it sounds like they've been pretty limited. My experience is that, as the character gets more powerful, kick-in-the-door adventuring isn't as interesting or challenging and we start to exercise broader influence on the campaign - including political influence. In other words, role playing tends to take the place of the old dungeon adventuring as we level up.
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KainPen wrote: for number 3 it has 10 mins worth of air per portiable hole. same for bags of holding, so every 8 mins you land let eveyone out stretch their legs and get back in. My group did this last game I DM, they used wind walk to get the job done since you go at 60 miles per hour. covering 600 miles is 10 hour trip, give or take an extra hour and half for stops frequant stops. Perfectly do able at level 11. in which you get the spell. It is a lot faster then walking. Personally, I don't think I'd willingly let myself be stuffed into an airtight bag, hoping that the person carrying the bag would be able to tell accurate time, just to save a few hours (or even days) on a long journey. Those characters would have to be rather trusting to attempt that tactic :)
By the way, wind walk has multiple targets (up to 4 at level 11, 5 at level 12); it wouldn't be necessary to use the portable hole trick when using that spell.
Walking or riding overland is the best way to come across plot hooks such as creepy villagers, traveling minstrels, fleeing peasants, wandering peddlers and tinkers, etc.
Plus you can stop in the village pub and try the local brew.
Adventuring is just how you pay for all the partying you do in your off hours.
KainPen wrote: for number 3 it has 10 mins worth of air per portiable hole. same for bags of holding, so every 8 mins you land let eveyone out stretch their legs and get back in. My group did this last game I DM, they used wind walk to get the job done since you go at 60 miles per hour. covering 600 miles is 10 hour trip, give or take an extra hour and half for stops frequant stops. Perfectly do able at level 11. in which you get the spell. It is a lot faster then walking. Are you saying that your travel plans are to have 1 portable hole per person?
Assuming a party of 4 (total) medium characters that 60,000 gold pieces spent on uncomfortable, but fast, travel that might result in most of the party getting a serious case of being dead if the single flying party member doesn't have an accurate and portable time telling device or manages the bad luck to be attacked alone and incapacitated before having a chance to land and let someone out of a hole.
when you got a group of 6 +1 cohort some people going in the bag, I think trust should be a non-issues after this group of people saved your butt from lava pits, drow warlords, false murder accusations, Very big green dragons, and inter dimensional shadow pock plane of the world ending. getting in a bag for 5 to 8 mins seems rather easy thing to do lol.
Wiggz wrote: DrDeth wrote: Werebat wrote: Welcome to E6, my friend. Or maybe E8, which probably works better in PF. Welcome to boredom. You can have it. I can't remember the last time I found Game of Thrones 'boring', and I doubt anyone in that series would be considered any higher than 6th or 8th level.
I've found that the higher level campaigns one needs, the less imaginative they tend to be. High level game play is more for power gamers or video gamers than actual role-players. I think of high level campaigns as chess between different nations or regions where the players strongholds are involved. And if the players are high level you can easily walk them into mean traps ambushes and other means to bleed them of recources. Because killing them outright is no fun but making them escort their precious recources for the war means they need to protect others instead of themselves and those others are weak so they need to be smart, fast and pay attention.
The easyest way to make it difficult is to give them an assignment they cannot possibly succeed at and see how much they do get done and what their priorities were. And after that reward them for their achievements and penalize them for their failures. They will survive but will their fiefdom fare as well???? And off course throw in an epic fight every now and then or more often if they are really powerfull. Let them manage their recources in order to challenge them.
And most importantly remember: Bad guys do not fight fair and when your heroes are high level, you can hit them with the cheapest shots you can think off and you will most likely not kill em but seriously dig into their recources. So make sure you give them more tasks then recources.
And remember it's good to be bad ;)
LazarX wrote: Mathius wrote: After 9th level overland travel is a non-issue.
The most common way I have seen to travel cross country is to teleport. If the PCs have never been there they can find someone in town who has and read his mind or scry on someone who is there.
Assuming that does not work a druid can turn into a huge flying creature and carry the party. Weight is no problem with muleback cords and ant haul.
Overland flight and portable hole can allow a mage to carry the group.
At higher levels you have greater teleport, items of flying, wind walk, double gate, and more I have not even thought of.
With all that said
Players who rely on corner rules can count on DM's who take into account the consequences of using such rules.
1. There is no way to get a reliable teleport fix using this method. The teleport mishap table exists for a reason, and missing the aim on a coastal city will wind up calling for some unscheduled Swim checks, and most likely a sea encounter as well. Greater Teleport requires some degree of familliarity with the place. It's an absolutely useless spell for going to somewhere that is completely unknown to you. (and keep in mind that PC's and NPC's don't get to use the same quality of maps that you have access to as a GM.)
2. Muleback cords allow for much, but not for this kind of abuse.
3. And those folks in the portable hole are going to breathe how? Overland Flight is only marginally better than foot movement, and no improvement at all over regular mounted travel. Plus you really do stick out like a sore thumb.
As for higher level play, that's going to be a lot more idiosyncratic answer as High level play can go a wide variety of ways. However I interpret magic in the most restrictive ways possible as opposed to being overly permissive. It's the latter sort of DM that tends to find that the casters become the dominant species of their worlds and everyone else is merely a cheering band. This about a thousand times over.
How often is your solo flyer going to be going one on one because the rest of the party is inside an extradimensional space during an Aerial encounter meant for the entire party? That scenario doesn't have to play out too often to drive home the disadvantage of effectively neutralizing more than half the party for your foes.
Everything said about Teleport also applies to Scrying magic. It's not automatic, involves Will saves and other details that should not be glossed over for reasons of travel anymore than you would when used for parties attempting Scry and Fry tactics. Magical sensors tend to get noticed eventually and draw attention. Never mind all sorts of campaign and roleplaying details such as spying on folks is generally considered rude and possibly illegal. Just because the party is using the commoner bartender to get a look at the area for teleporting doesn't mean the considerably more powerful wizard (and his companions) sitting in the tavern don't notice the sensor and, shall we say, "take offense" or that the party arrives and finds the town guard trying to place them under arrest for 'unlawful teleportation with intent to evade taxation' ... you did mean to go back and pay the 2cp at the gate right?. The sensor doesn't come with an "I'm only noticeable by the bartender and being used for aiding in harmless travel" clause. "from the CRB wrote: A creature can notice the sensor by making a Perception check with a DC 20 + the spell level. The sensor can be dispelled as if it were an active spell. Of course none of this really addresses the thread creators OP. But these (plus other reasons elaborated in the thread) are some of the reasons a high level party might decide to travel overland by more mundane means vs by rapid magic or to provide a framework for what happens when and where the party does 'drop out of hyperspace' to rest, answer natures call or camp overnight while in route to the site of the 'real' adventure. Just like if walking, magically enhanced travel can be just as readily glossed over or role played out in intense detail as the DM decides while getting to wherever the meat of the adventure plays out, just don't forget that even magical travel has many of its own nitty gritty details as riding the warhorses there does. Written adventures can't cover it all so they provide the most basic framework and leave the rest to be decided by the DM unless its somehow pertinent to the adventure.
Tels wrote: Overland Flight is much better than mounted travel. Range personal
Target you
Magic overcomes challenges quickly and easily all the time. This isnt limited strictly to travel. If you have the 'right' spel or magic item you can bypass all sorts of challenges, from combats, to puzzles, to social encounters, to traps. High level prepared spellcasters when prepared will mess with stories. In general published modules assume the party or at least the dm have the good sense not to do/allow this.
Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Kolokotroni wrote: Magic overcomes challenges quickly and easily all the time. This isnt limited strictly to travel. If you have the 'right' spel or magic item you can bypass all sorts of challenges, from combats, to puzzles, to social encounters, to traps. High level prepared spellcasters when prepared will mess with stories. In general published modules assume the party or at least the dm have the good sense not to do/allow this. Never fear, Schrodinger's Wizard is here!
DrDeth wrote: Tels wrote: Overland Flight is much better than mounted travel. Range personal
Target you
They were talking about using Overland Flight in conjunction with extradimensional items to ferry the party everywhere. Lazar made the claim that Overland Flight is 'only marginal better than foot movement and no improvement at all over regular mounted movement' which I countered.
In the context of the above discussion, Overland Flight is better because you can bypass any obstacles on the path by just flying over them. Mounts can't do that (without spells or magic items).
Mathius wrote:
Overland flight and portable hole can allow a mage to carry the group.
Best plot hook ever.
Mage stops for a beer with the party waiting in a portable hole.
Lucky footpad gets a sleight of hand and steals the portable hole in a pickpocket attempt.
The lowly thief takes a few weeks before a fence identified the item and opens it up, finding a suffocated party - dead, but with a kings fortune in loot.
Things get real from there.
Tels wrote:
They were talking about using Overland Flight in conjunction with extradimensional items to ferry the party everywhere. Lazar made the claim that Overland Flight is 'only marginal better than foot movement and no improvement at all over regular mounted movement' which I countered.
In the context of the above discussion, Overland Flight is better because you can bypass any obstacles on the path by just flying over them. Mounts can't do that (without spells or magic items).
Honestly though by the time PCs get to be about mid-level they should probably have access to a flying mount if they want to. Griffons or Hipporgriff mounted warriors are kinda iconic and they can go a long way to extending the range of PC activities without making the group utterly dependent on the wizard for magical bus.
From what i have seen APs and modules assume that a party won't walk, after a certain level, they will either teleport, fly, shadow walk or something the way.
But keep in mind that i usually see this at 10-11+ levels and there is usually one or two things that may happen IF they take the road.
thenobledrake wrote: KainPen wrote: for number 3 it has 10 mins worth of air per portiable hole. same for bags of holding, so every 8 mins you land let eveyone out stretch their legs and get back in. My group did this last game I DM, they used wind walk to get the job done since you go at 60 miles per hour. covering 600 miles is 10 hour trip, give or take an extra hour and half for stops frequant stops. Perfectly do able at level 11. in which you get the spell. It is a lot faster then walking. Are you saying that your travel plans are to have 1 portable hole per person?
Assuming a party of 4 (total) medium characters that 60,000 gold pieces spent on uncomfortable, but fast, travel that might result in most of the party getting a serious case of being dead if the single flying party member doesn't have an accurate and portable time telling device or manages the bad luck to be attacked alone and incapacitated before having a chance to land and let someone out of a hole. It not as bad as you might think especially if you have a DM that is really strict with encumbrance. It becomes common for several members of the party to have a bag of holding or portable hole are 2. Also AS others stated wind walk allows more then one person to change in to a cloud. Even with one person and that person can be seen in cloud form 80% chance of being mistaken for a cloud. I don't think there is a single creature in the game or encounter that would have the ability to catch up to you. Wind walk has you move at 600ft. per round.
The last chapter in 2nd darkness AP actually suggest uses this method to reach the first encounter. You start in a city and have to travel over 900 Miles or something following the path in a ancient journal of some pathfinder to a land deep way past that of the Darklands. In 15 hours I don't think there are a lot of clouds down that way. so It safe to say you travel so fast nothing can keep up with you. My group used this tactic before the last chapter because the cleric had it as domain spell and used it to travel on the chapter before. that how they found out about the spell.
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