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So for those that haven't heard yet the last 2 classes for advanced classes have been announced and I again have some worries about one in particular. Apparently we will be getting a new class called The Brawler which is meant to be a class that, "blends the fighter and the monk, creating a warrior whose sole focus is unarmed combat and martial maneuvers, without any of the mysticism of the monk. This class is designed specifically to beat up monsters, with a full base attack bonus progression (like a fighter) and improved unarmed strike damage (like a monk). To top it off, the class is also very skilled at making combat maneuvers."
Now despite how cool that sounds it does have me worried about the monk and its place in the whole scheme of things considering that if the brawler is done right we will now have yet another class that outstrips the monk in unarmed combat and are left with the monk sitting behind the fighter and brawler in terms of being able to do what it was designed to do.
Is anyone else worried about this or have any ideas as to what happens next? I'm not looking to start a flame war I'm just wanting to see if I'm alone in this of if this worries and or upsets people as well.
link to the full article here
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"...without any of the mysticism of the monk."
I think the monk will be fine.
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"...without any of the mysticism of the monk."
I think the monk will be fine.
The monk was a mystic? Someone should tell him about it.
Yeah, it seems there are 2 schools for the monk (or rather, players that want to be one):
1) Martial artist: the breawler will satisfy them MUCH better, since they wont have to mess around with anything more than punching.
2) Mystic: they want to be goku, shoot shoryukens and the rest. Maybe be annoyingly zen.
In the end, monk will lose part of it's fanbase, but not all.
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I was wondering when this thread would be created.
I only wonder if it's going to cause any confusion for newer players because of the Brawler archetype. Probably not, but maybe.
The monk will be fine, he's got all his mystic stuff like the qigong monk
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"...without any of the mysticism of the monk."
I think the monk will be fine.
Yeah but I feel like that just exacerbates the problem. The biggest issue with the monk is the ki system and how it eats up build space for the class and yet either doesn't deliver with those abilities. Things like tongue of the sun & moon, wholeness of body, and diamond soul coming up way too late in their level progression to be as useful as those level slots are supposed to be and with a few of them actually getting in the way of the class doing what its supposed to be doing. With the brawler I feel like we're just going to be getting monks further and further left behind instead of giving them a desperately needed update.
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Qinqgong Monk is the mystic. Brawler is our Pugilist. Monk is a mix. I'm happy with this dichotomy.
Yeah but I feel like that just exacerbates the problem. The biggest issue with the monk is the ki system and how it eats up build space for the class and yet either doesn't deliver with those abilities. Things like tongue of the sun & moon, wholeness of body, and diamond soul coming up way too late in their level progression to be as useful as those level slots are supposed to be and with a few of them actually getting in the way of the class doing what its supposed to be doing. With the brawler I feel like we're just going to be getting monks further and further left behind instead of giving them a desperately needed update."...without any of the mysticism of the monk."
I think the monk will be fine.
Why not just look at the brawler as the update you feel monks need then?
This honestly sounds awesome to me. I don't want to deal with the eastern mysticism content that's so deeply baked into the Monk that a LOT of work has to be done on the GM side to strip it out.
There really isn't a lot of mysticism in the core monk. His ki is used to hit more or more. Its actually really easy to strip out.
Honestly, a Psion fits better, as their abilities, while making some nods to New Age and eastern mystic concepts, remain relatively agnostic on a fundamental level.
Alternatively, dreamscarred press has the Meditant archetype for Psychic Warriors.
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Nope not worried. I'll still love my core Monk no matter what. I doubt that this Brawler will get Abundant Step type abilities, and will still have low skill points.
Plus, I get to keep my monastic training backstories!
So for those that haven't heard yet the last 2 classes for advanced classes have been announced and I again have some worries about one in particular. Apparently we will be getting a new class called The Brawler which is meant to be a class that, "blends the fighter and the monk, creating a warrior whose sole focus is unarmed combat and martial maneuvers, without any of the mysticism of the monk. This class is designed specifically to beat up monsters, with a full base attack bonus progression (like a fighter) and improved unarmed strike damage (like a monk). To top it off, the class is also very skilled at making combat maneuvers."
Now despite how cool that sounds it does have me worried about the monk and its place in the whole scheme of things considering that if the brawler is done right we will now have yet another class that outstrips the monk in unarmed combat and are left with the monk sitting behind the fighter and brawler in terms of being able to do what it was designed to do.
Is anyone else worried about this or have any ideas as to what happens next? I'm not looking to start a flame war I'm just wanting to see if I'm alone in this of if this worries and or upsets people as well.
link to the full article here
This is what I have been waiting for. A martial artist without any mystical or magical abilities. :)
So for those that haven't heard yet the last 2 classes for advanced classes have been announced and I again have some worries about one in particular. Apparently we will be getting a new class called The Brawler which is meant to be a class that, "blends the fighter and the monk, creating a warrior whose sole focus is unarmed combat and martial maneuvers, without any of the mysticism of the monk. This class is designed specifically to beat up monsters, with a full base attack bonus progression (like a fighter) and improved unarmed strike damage (like a monk). To top it off, the class is also very skilled at making combat maneuvers."
Now despite how cool that sounds it does have me worried about the monk and its place in the whole scheme of things considering that if the brawler is done right we will now have yet another class that outstrips the monk in unarmed combat and are left with the monk sitting behind the fighter and brawler in terms of being able to do what it was designed to do.
Is anyone else worried about this or have any ideas as to what happens next? I'm not looking to start a flame war I'm just wanting to see if I'm alone in this of if this worries and or upsets people as well.
link to the full article here
This is only giving so many people what they want. If you go through the monk piece by piece, they are a mixed offense defense class. They can save against a lot, move fast, skirmish easily, scout with a bit of tweaking, but their up in your face crunch and bash like Bruce Lee is not so flash. They have been a mixed and mobile class since 3.5. They aren't great for dpr and have trouble hitting high ac opponents (if anyone wishes to argue for 100 posts about any of this, don't bother, I truly do not care what you have to say).
This brawler just gives the DPR enthusiasts what they want. A martial artist, not a monk. For them to be great at maneuvres raises an eyebrow, since the fighter is meant to be the master of that (more taken away from the fighter again eh?).
Ironically, damage dealing power monks were easy to create way back in 3.0, with a range of feats and prestige classes. The old stuff already has all the answers, but out will come a new shiny paizo synthesis of old and new ideas. I am not so enthused.
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This is what I have been waiting for. A martial artist without any mystical or magical abilities. :)So for those that haven't heard yet the last 2 classes for advanced classes have been announced and I again have some worries about one in particular. Apparently we will be getting a new class called The Brawler which is meant to be a class that, "blends the fighter and the monk, creating a warrior whose sole focus is unarmed combat and martial maneuvers, without any of the mysticism of the monk. This class is designed specifically to beat up monsters, with a full base attack bonus progression (like a fighter) and improved unarmed strike damage (like a monk). To top it off, the class is also very skilled at making combat maneuvers."
Now despite how cool that sounds it does have me worried about the monk and its place in the whole scheme of things considering that if the brawler is done right we will now have yet another class that outstrips the monk in unarmed combat and are left with the monk sitting behind the fighter and brawler in terms of being able to do what it was designed to do.
Is anyone else worried about this or have any ideas as to what happens next? I'm not looking to start a flame war I'm just wanting to see if I'm alone in this of if this worries and or upsets people as well.
link to the full article here
And I'm with you in that it sounds really cool but if this is meant to be the replacement for the monk and they have no plans to update or patch the monk up to make it more viable alongside the other classes then why not just say that? Why not just admit that they want to kind of leave it behind and that their are no real plans to update it and call the brawler their do over?
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And I'm with you in that it sounds really cool but if this is meant to be the replacement for the monk and they have no plans to update or patch the monk up to make it more viable alongside the other classes then why not just say that? Why not just admit that they want to kind of leave it behind and that their are no real plans to update it and call the brawler their do over?This is what I have been waiting for. A martial artist without any mystical or magical abilities. :)So for those that haven't heard yet the last 2 classes for advanced classes have been announced and I again have some worries about one in particular. Apparently we will be getting a new class called The Brawler which is meant to be a class that, "blends the fighter and the monk, creating a warrior whose sole focus is unarmed combat and martial maneuvers, without any of the mysticism of the monk. This class is designed specifically to beat up monsters, with a full base attack bonus progression (like a fighter) and improved unarmed strike damage (like a monk). To top it off, the class is also very skilled at making combat maneuvers."
Now despite how cool that sounds it does have me worried about the monk and its place in the whole scheme of things considering that if the brawler is done right we will now have yet another class that outstrips the monk in unarmed combat and are left with the monk sitting behind the fighter and brawler in terms of being able to do what it was designed to do.
Is anyone else worried about this or have any ideas as to what happens next? I'm not looking to start a flame war I'm just wanting to see if I'm alone in this of if this worries and or upsets people as well.
link to the full article here
Because
A) not everyone thinks the monk is "not viable" andB) more variety is not a bad thing.
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If you want exotic abilities, you could just mix it with the Ninja or the Barb, or maybe some other new class. You'll come out with better BAB and more stuff to do than the base monk.
Yeah, it sucks that you can't just pick the Monk and do that, but since Paizo seems to be adamantly against real balance erratas (not done as Archetypes or feats...) you'll just have to live with core Monk sucking.
Yeah and that's kind of the thing I'm really not a fan of. If i want be this badass martial artist who can shrug spells, run down walls, and deliver the one inch punch of death and there is a class that promises me that opportunity as part of its design I shouldn't have to then mix and match my class levels and archetypes to make it do that effectively if the class is supposed to already get it.
I'm more worried/eager about the ratfolk setting a ferry to leave the SS rogue.
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So for those that haven't heard yet the last 2 classes for advanced classes have been announced and I again have some worries about one in particular. Apparently we will be getting a new class called The Brawler which is meant to be a class that, "blends the fighter and the monk, creating a warrior whose sole focus is unarmed combat and martial maneuvers, without any of the mysticism of the monk. This class is designed specifically to beat up monsters, with a full base attack bonus progression (like a fighter) and improved unarmed strike damage (like a monk). To top it off, the class is also very skilled at making combat maneuvers."
So they finally fixed the monk? Cool.
It'll be interesting to see what can be done with the Brawler that couldn't be done with the unarmed fighter archetype.
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There really isn't a lot of mysticism in the core monk.Basically every one of the monk's class features is explained in-setting as physical discipline brought into the realm of the supernatural through spiritualism, despite most of them being Extraordinary rather than Supernatural abilities (thanks, most likely, to the stupid choice of having supernatural abilities subject to anti-magic).
While some things might make sense from a purely "I trained very hard for very long," angle, there are class features like Still Mind, Slow Fall, High Jump, Purity of Body, Wholeness of Body, Diamond Body, Abundant Step, Diamond Soul, Quivering Palm, Timeless Body, Tongue of the Sun and Moon, Empty Body, and Perfect Self that require further explanation.
Over 50% of the class features of a core Monk require "mysticism". I don't see how you can say that isn't a lot.
Yeah. It sounds like they are just taking the monks unarmed abilities and splicing them with the fighter which just feels off since you're at best fixing one of the major problems monks have with unarmed combat and then just giving it to another class.
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Hey guys... Wait until you read the class.
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As a person who consistently lists Monk as his favorite class, I am hype.
Currently, Monk is the only CLASS (not Archetype) that caters to unarmed combat. And IMO games in general do not allow enough viable unarmed options.
The discussion of the hybrid classes make me wonder why Paizo don't just use Owen K. Stephens Talented class framework and then just create talents and edges for whatever new set of abilities they want to add. They seem to be a much more robust way of building classes and easier way to slot changes and new abilities concepts into the game without a lot of extra pages.
Probably because switching now would invalidate the past 5-6 years of rules design that they have created as well as up to several hundred dollars of product that their fans have purchased.
There really isn't a lot of mysticism in the core monk.Basically every one of the monk's class features is explained in-setting as physical discipline brought into the realm of the supernatural through spiritualism, despite most of them being Extraordinary rather than Supernatural abilities (thanks, most likely, to the stupid choice of having supernatural abilities subject to anti-magic).
While some things might make sense from a purely "I trained very hard for very long," angle, there are class features like Still Mind, Slow Fall, High Jump, Purity of Body, Wholeness of Body, Diamond Body, Abundant Step, Diamond Soul, Quivering Palm, Timeless Body, Tongue of the Sun and Moon, Empty Body, and Perfect Self that require further explanation.
Over 50% of the class features of a core Monk require "mysticism". I don't see how you can say that isn't a lot.
I don't consider any of the things you just listed 'mystical'. Extraordinary, but not supernatural or mystical. Jumping high and immunities are mystical to me, nor is quivering palm or stunning fist. That's why I don't see it as mystical.
I don't consider any of the things you just listed 'mystical'. Extraordinary, but not supernatural or mystical. Jumping high and immunities are mystical to me, nor is quivering palm or stunning fist. That's why I don't see it as mystical.There really isn't a lot of mysticism in the core monk.Basically every one of the monk's class features is explained in-setting as physical discipline brought into the realm of the supernatural through spiritualism, despite most of them being Extraordinary rather than Supernatural abilities (thanks, most likely, to the stupid choice of having supernatural abilities subject to anti-magic).
While some things might make sense from a purely "I trained very hard for very long," angle, there are class features like Still Mind, Slow Fall, High Jump, Purity of Body, Wholeness of Body, Diamond Body, Abundant Step, Diamond Soul, Quivering Palm, Timeless Body, Tongue of the Sun and Moon, Empty Body, and Perfect Self that require further explanation.
Over 50% of the class features of a core Monk require "mysticism". I don't see how you can say that isn't a lot.
Dimension Dooring?
anyone got a linky to the article itself?
anyone got a linky to the article itself?
I always did like that if the party is imprisoned, or disarmed to attend a feast, wedding, court or the homes of the elite, the monk is never actually disarmed by losing all of their "weapons". The monk smiles.
I always did like that if the party is imprisoned, or disarmed to attend a feast, wedding, court or the homes of the elite, the monk is never actually disarmed by losing all of their "weapons". The monk smiles.
I just used illusions. Don't know bout' yous. If to make yourself happy you have to make everyone else suck, something's wrong. Besides, casters still reign supreme in those situations.
Dimension Dooring?
Never said there wasn't any. He also has Lawful Magical super fist!
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Hey guys... Wait until you read the class.
/ sarcasm on
Why would we do that when we can engage in rampant speculation based on only a couple sentences?
Sure, we could wait until Tuesday to make an informed and well thought-out decision but we obviously know exactly what a new, 20 lvl base class will be like based on "it's a combo of fighter and monk". There really is no room for creativity there. It can only be one solution to this problem.
/ sarcasm off
Hey guys... Wait until you read the class./ sarcasm on
Why would we do that when we can engage in rampant speculation based on only a couple sentences?
Sure, we could wait until Tuesday to make an informed and well thought-out decision but we obviously know exactly what a new, 20 lvl base class will be like based on "it's a combo of fighter and monk". There really is no room for creativity there. It can only be one solution to this problem.
/ sarcasm off
I love speculation though! Its like a wrapped up Christmas present. You get all smiles and happiness and anxious and OMG JUST LET ME OPEN IT!
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I love speculation though! Its like a wrapped up Christmas present. You get all smiles and happiness and anxious and OMG JUST LET ME OPEN IT!Hey guys... Wait until you read the class./ sarcasm on
Why would we do that when we can engage in rampant speculation based on only a couple sentences?
Sure, we could wait until Tuesday to make an informed and well thought-out decision but we obviously know exactly what a new, 20 lvl base class will be like based on "it's a combo of fighter and monk". There really is no room for creativity there. It can only be one solution to this problem.
/ sarcasm off
In all honesty, I do too, I'm just concerned that people will close their minds to ideas before they even see them based on predetermined ideas of what something should be.
Hey guys... Wait until you read the class.
But unfounded speculation is half the basis for our frothing insanity? Are you trying to short beer commercials of their critical supply of foam?
I love speculation though! Its like a wrapped up Christmas present. You get all smiles and happiness and anxious and OMG JUST LET ME OPEN IT!In all honesty, I do too, I'm just concerned that people will close their minds to ideas before they even see them based on predetermined ideas of what something should be.
Give it time. Its a short while until the playtest, and even longer until release. I'm sure it'll get better.
I am more interested in how many rogue replacements will be.
We already had at least 2 didn't we?
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If you find the monk gets the fuzzy end of the lollipop, when it's all said and done, there's always THIS.
I'm interested in this, if only because it helps clarify the role and CONCEPT of the monk. If someone comes up and says: I want to be a great brawler!
...then there's now an easy, direct answer to point them to, and the DM and other players don't need to worry about the mechanical mish-mash that is the monk class (though I personally enjoy the class, it's not something to throw at a new player).
I'm also looking forward to the skald.
The slayer and swashbuckler could be what some of the fans of the rogue could have been looking for: massive damage, light fighter and the sexier, lighter fighter.
A number of the classes suffer from a sort of fractured concept, a trying-to-do-too-much. By offering these options, if they offer clarity, it's a good thing.
I couldn't be happier with both reveals, as they are both things I tweak with multiclassing regularly.
Anyword on how they interact with archtypes? My head is already reeling when i try to sit down to make a character.
I love speculation though! Its like a wrapped up Christmas present. You get all smiles and happiness and anxious and OMG JUST LET ME OPEN IT!In all honesty, I do too, I'm just concerned that people will close their minds to ideas before they even see them based on predetermined ideas of what something should be.Give it time. Its a short while until the playtest, and even longer until release. I'm sure it'll get better.
I am more interested in how many rogue replacements will be.We already had at least 2 didn't we?
Seeker Oracle, Urban Ranger, Archaeologist off the top of my head.
Though the Seeker Oracle has slight difficulties finding the traps unless theres a trait that grants perception.
I love speculation though! Its like a wrapped up Christmas present. You get all smiles and happiness and anxious and OMG JUST LET ME OPEN IT!In all honesty, I do too, I'm just concerned that people will close their minds to ideas before they even see them based on predetermined ideas of what something should be.Give it time. Its a short while until the playtest, and even longer until release. I'm sure it'll get better.
I am more interested in how many rogue replacements will be.We already had at least 2 didn't we?Seeker Oracle, Urban Ranger, Archaeologist off the top of my head.
Though the Seeker Oracle has slight difficulties finding the traps unless theres a trait that grants perception.
Valashamai Veteran and Militant Merchant both grant Perception as class skills if I recall.