Oh, OK! Yup, I've used the rope comment at least twice now. (It's from a chapter intro in "Seeker's of Secrets".) One adventure I keep thinking about mostly involved us using several sets of rope to get past most obstacles, and Oti isn't the jumping kind in his banded mail.
I hadn't realized that you were in the other game - I get surprised like that a lot. I'll have to add "DM Kludde" to the list of people I know and can try hitting up for games. ;-) I'm "GM FurtiveZoog", but I can usually only manage 1 GM game at a time. :-\
I had a similar moment not long ago, started up a new bard and was already running in GM Kludde's game before I realized he was also Frindlikh here. XD
Boy, you might be able to trace out some intricate web of connections between us all, six degrees of Kevin Bacon style. The mind boggles!
Update is forthcoming!
Incestuous, eh? Is that why I felt compelled to watch the recent remake of Flowers in the Attic? *waggles eyebrows* XD
Ok, I do have a question for my Alpha and Beta teams. You guys are both at 5 players each and I wondered if either group would be in favor of a last minute 6th. I had to put out multiple calls to get someone in Gamma quickly and now I've gotten multiple RSVP's. I have a level 2 Aasimar Archaeologist Bard standing by if either team will have him.
I've got a sick kiddo myself and trying to keep everyone in the house from following his example. Had a LONG lab day... and I'm too zonked to position according to directions. Your maps have been updated, I'll lift the blind once you've re-arranged your approach. Feel free to make perception and/or stealth checks yourself, as some of you have already done. Quickie update tonight!
I was hoping to pick some brains from the group on how to best finalize my build on my PFS Ranger, Daeris. She's only been played once but she's collected enough GM and Pre-Gen credit to be level 2 the next time I play her so I want to be sure I've considered my options. I like the Guide for it's flexibility in PFS, but I may also prefer to go a straight Ranger Class so I can take her Horizon Walker...
Thoughts?
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Im confused a bit by your statement about Horizon Walker...seems to me theres nothing preventing a Guide Ranger from going into the class.
The line "No spellcasting" also stood out to me...does this simply refer to her not having spells yet? Or does she have the trapper archetype and you havnt put it on the sheet?
That said, I dont see anything worth making a note of. The only thing, from a pure power perspective would be to get something like Reactionary or the +1 Will saves Trait.
Only thing about guide is the loss of the animal companion. So many enemies have the Human subtype (humans, half-elves, half-orc and several others), the Guide flexebility might be of questionable use. It is however very nice to always be able to pull out those bonuses against a "boss". Its really a 50/50 for me, so id say keep it if you like it.
The trapper archetype is on the sheet... I apparently left it off the level line, but trapfinding and no spellcasting is listed. I think I confused myself into thinking the Guide altered something required but after a second look you're right.
I mean for Daeris to be a switch-hitter, Archery focused and also carry that elven curve blade for getting up close and personal. Her constitution worries me though, makes me want to rob Int or maybe Cha... but I'm such a diplomatic person naturally, it's hard for me undercut the Charisma.
But do I want to forget the archetypes and go for an animal companion? I'm usually too conservative to ever make really good use of a pet, but I read the guides and found the argument for the horse companion pretty compelling.
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Mechanically, elves are inferior switch-hitters because of the low CON. However, a 12 is respectable, so Daeris is certainly a well-made character. I find a lot of use for both spells and animal companion when I play my ranger Fletch. I send in the wolf to keep enemies at bay while I shoot and then use him as a flanking companion and tripper when I move into melee. Note that I put all my favored class points into the wolf's HP and raised his INT enough to let him wear heavier armor. I also dipped into cavalier to get full speed in medium armor (heavy, with mithral full plate), so that I can use Acrobatics to get into position when melee starts.
Animal companions are a very strong choice because they give you more actions. However, the flexibility of the Guide is a great boon, too. You're almost always prepared for the situation.
My suggestion is to worry less about mechanics and more about what you think you'll enjoy playing.
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Well im purely speaking from a "power" perspective in regards to the animal companion. Boon Companion feat and you got yourself like half an extra PC in the party. If you don't see yourself using a companion well or enjoying having one, definitely forget about it.
Switch-hitter with a focus on archery is definitely viable, since it only really needs two melee feats (Finesse and Power Attack). Grab precise shot at level 3, power attack at 5 and then its cruise control on the archery feats from there really.
From what youve written, I dont see any reason to change anything really.
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Looks good. Very similar to what a friend of mine is playing except he went the trapper archtype.
The build looks perfectly reasonable so far. What is your planned feat progression? I always put that right on my sheets so I can remember it in the future.
Minor quible. If it was me, I would consider droping dex 2 points to raise int 4 points. It is only a difference of 1 on the attack total and I really like skill points. Especially in PFS. When you don't know who is showing up with what, there are often very needed skills missing.
Others would say dump the charisma and intelligence to put the dex at 20.
If you can't decide on guide or standard ranger based on concept. Think about the role you see her filling and what else you see at your local games.
If you want to be the up front stealthy scout, trapfinding is great and you may not want a great big velociraptor giving your location away all the time. Especially if your local games rarely have any sneaky trapfinding types. Then take the guide.
If on the otherhand you want to hang back to shoot arrows since there is usually someone else to scout, then you may want an animal that is your own personal meat shield. (Also easier to play the pet that way. You don't give any commands other than "guard me.") You might not want the guide.
If you go this route instead of picking the best fighting pet, you may want to pick the most durable pet. Consider the Body Guard animal archtype from the Animal Archive book. If you take a pet, give serious consideration to a few of the teamwork feats.
Not bad. I would also argue that a 16 Str/16 Dex would also work out well - but that is just me. Regardless, as Selter points out, others would dump but frankly Rangers should probably have more balanced stats as they have a good range of skills to apply them too, and a reasonable amount of skill points.
Stealth and PFS just don't go together very well at any table I have attended because people you just met tend not to have the cohesion for running a point-man. I was unconvinced by the Guide ranger overall. For Animal Companions (even if just a buddy to stop things wailing on you) getting Boon Companion is pretty much an essential. The Animal Companion might also benefit from the Bodyguard package.
Favoured Enemy:Human gives great bang for buck, and Favoured Terrain:Urban or Underground are also a good deal you get heaps of use out of.
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Id probably be an advocate for the 16/16 split on Str and Dex as well if it werent for her weapon being the old Curve Blade. There is ofcourse the bonus of not having to get Weapon Finesse, but in the long run, having a stacked dex from items and advancement, with it affecting both attack modes, just seems better. Especially once you consider rapid shot and deadly aims to hit penalties. 16 Str also doesnt get you much more from a twohander. If she were to go the 16/16 route, id probably nix Weapon Finesse and use a onehander and a shield when going melee.
Regarding the Constitution, theres always the option of going my favorite race, the Half-elf. Since the Int bonus isnt being used to full effect, the floating +2 and no minus stat is point for point better. Half-elves can also get a juicy +2 to their Will saves through the alternate racial, as well as some spell-like abilites from the Drow Blood alternate racial.
Having spell-like abilities also lets her grab Arcane Strike after level 5, for +2 damage. This is really good, because she doesnt really have a use for Swift actions anyway, and +2 damage means alot on ranged attacks where getting bonus damage is harder.
The more I think about it, the better the onehander and shield option seems for the switch-hitting. She can then dump Power Attack from the equation, freeing up a precious feat.
Id suggest a progression something like:
1: Point Blank Shot
2: Precise Shot (Archery style)
3: Rapid Shot
4: -
5: Arcane Strike (if drow blooded half-elf), otherwise Deadly Aim
6: Manyshot (Archery style)
7: Deadly Aim (if Arcane Strike at 5), otherwise possibly Weapon Finesse at this point.
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Okaaaaaay, im rambling now so ill stop. Ill just reiterate, that if your current setup is what you are looking for thematically, stick with it, its about as good as it can be.
Cheers.
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Stealth only works in PFS if you are willing to take charge of being stealthy (or have a regular group that knows each other very well).
If you constantly remind them, "I am going to be scouting ahead. Give me at least 30' of space or 60' if you are especially clanky. I will come back and report what I see at regular intervals." One guy I know even bought a wand of Forced Quiet to use on those clanky individuals.
You have to be kind of aggressve and confident about it. You need to have the, 'I got this' attitude. Otherwise they will try to stay close to protect you. Which of course just puts you in more danger.
It is a case where the player has to behave differently than the PC. Often a player wants to be a sneaky character because they are a quiet shy person that doesn't want to put themselves forward. That doesn't tend to work out too well.
I wouldn't call an animal companion essential, though it can be very effective. A ranger is actually pretty effective all on his lonesome. I've seen a couple of people play a standard ranger and not take an animal companion just because they didn't want the complication. Plus PFS is usually not that horrifically tough since it also has to be playable by fairly inexperienced and unbalanced groups. And yes, if you do have an animal companion, Boon Companion just became the most valuable feat you can take.
I will check later, but I didn't think Drow Blood was legal for PFS.
I personally don't like sword and board for a switch hitter. But that is mostly my personal taste. I just can't see trying to stow a bow, don a shield, and ready a weapon as quick thing to do while someone is charging at you.
In fact one of the switch hitters that I have seen uses a long sword and no shield. That way he doesn't have to stow the bow (or take the risky chance of dropping the bow) and can pull the weapon as part of a move action while still holding the bow in his off hand. If he has time to stow it, he can always use the sword with 2 hands and it only averages a couple points less in damage.
But archtype, animal companion, stealth, and weapon are all personal choice decisions. All of them can be made to work pretty effectively.
Weapon Finesse is pretty much a trap with the ECB imo.
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If you are running as a switch, ECB and finesse are certainly a trap. You are likely going to go medium armor, which means you are going to want a decent strength. Combine that with the fact that you can get damage from both Dex and Str, you can get your hit off str for the weapon and you likely are making more attacks with a blade than the bow if you are a switch and you will see that Str tends to trump Dex on this particular build.
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The basic design for the ranger switch-hitter is that they are firing 1-2 shots as they close, then they draw weapon and are melee to finish. You should be doing some of both in every combat. You go high str and lower dex and use the ability of Ranger (ranged spec) to ignore dex requirements on feats.
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Not always. Some consider 'switch hitter' to be mostly an archer. But he doesn't have to run away if things close with him. Not necessarily that he is only going to shoot just once or twice while closing.
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That is the way I would probably run one.
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But then I might still not take weapon finese. Still full BaB class with decent strength. So will still be hitting most of the time. Wouldn't be an immediate priority anyway.
Any basic ranged archer can pull a sword when it all goes wrong, but yeah the Switch Hitter is an Aragorn based model who can operate in close and at range. The idea is you choose a moderate Dex build and take the Archer ranger options, but your feats go into melee skills.
Its a pretty defined build coined in the Treantmonk Guide to Rangers, but yeah Archers are valid, but having the flex to be anywhere on the battlefield for giving up just a little bit of your Archery goodness is a steal of a deal.
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I'm not versed enough in archers to tell you how effective they are - purportedly very - but my own switch hitter is brutally effective. I've gone with 18 Str and 16 Dex, but get to use both because I have the equipment trick combat scabbard feat, and quickdraw, which means I get a swift action ranged attack every time I draw my greatsword - currently totting 4 greatswords. Just took a level of barbarian, but even without that his damage has been phenomenal, though his AC is pretty dire. I'm taking archery style for the feats, which work for my fling scabbard attacks, and rarely use a bow, but have done so a couple of times to great effect.
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I wish I could make my paladin more effective, but I only have 1 feat to play with, it seems that heavily-armored characters don't have the best ACs, and I feel thematically limited to shield and longsword, trying to make the classic paladin of Iomedae. The AC will go up a bit when I can get full plate, but it seems that I am beat by the druids in that regard currently. (In other games it is the zen archers and inquisitors that have me beat.)
I have Toughness at the moment, just to get through 1st level, but will probably rewrite it to something else before 2nd level.
Any thoughts?
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On what? Are you trying to up your AC or are you trying to build a more optimized damage-dealer? Both are viable routes to effective combat.
For AC, get full plate, a heavy shield (both enhanced to +1), 12 Dex, add +1 ring of protection, +1 amulet of natural armor and by early-mid levels you'll have an AC of 26. More powerful enhancements and costlier items can boost it considerably later.
Sword and shield is iconic, but it's rarely the best damage-dealer. But then, nobody expects the paladin to be the lord of the battlefield. They expect him to be the tank that keeps all the bad guys away and occasionally cuts loose on a demon or undead.
Pally - throw out the sword and board and take a crunch weapon, such as a Falchion (or ECB if an Elf) - possibly a No Dachi if it wont jar your immersion (just pretend you are Connor MacLeod or something, its all good) and go to town. Sword and Board is classic and I am not dumping on it, but it's just not that amazing in day to day.
THAT SAID
Take your two hander, but ALSO pack a Shield and Sword 'for those heavy days' when you have to tank an spank a serious BBEG for the party. For average play the mooks will still struggle to hit a guy in Heavy armour wven with a half baked dex, but your hits will be dropping them a lot faster and the two hander would be your day to day item.
Ninja'd by Li!
Still, my recommendation is follow the 2hand route, and have reasonable back up gear for swapping in if needed. And also get 3 ranks of Acrobatics ASAP. Shield of Swings too if needed. Then you can fight defensively, still get some kind of shot off (even if a bit meh), and pump your AC by 7 in a melee whilst swinging a two hander.
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i played in a game with a buddy who ran a human paladin of apsu. The guy whiffed the first half of the campaign and became a joke around the table. But when we hit lvl 8 we encountered a CR 12 liche preist, The liche killed a rogue with word of death, paralzed one more and had a staff of fireballs on top of that. When all his abilities Proc'ed he did like 70ish damage to the creature in one hit and triggered the death by massive injure check. He solo killed a boss 4 levels above us!....My point is Paladins seem to start slow but in certain situations become insane at mid to high levels. They have a lot of utility and at the very least work as the moral compass of the group.
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Li and Shify,
Thanks! Dex is poor and I dumped Wisdom, but things will, of course, improve at 2nd level for the saves and I took the trait that allows CHA to be used for Charms and Compulsions, so I'm pretty good there. (I figured a hit in Will saves will be partially made up for by the overall increase in saves at 2nd level with Divine Favor.)
Maybe, like that iconic figure, I'll pretend the greatsword is a Large longsword or some such.
Does the heavy shield become a problem later? It seems I need a free hand for both Lay on Hands and any spellcasting (modest as that will always be). So, I was thinking about changing the heavy shield I have currently for a buckler, or going the other way with the two handed weapon. I suppose I could do a little of both with the 2H and the backup gear, as Shifty suggested.
Why do I need 3 ranks in Acrobatics, though? It is my understanding that you can't move past foes with medium/heavy armor or medium/heavy load.
Edit: Ah, I see, for the +3 bonus. Nvm.
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Hmmm, sword and board is very tough to optimize, I think if I had to I would go two weapon fighting. 15 point buy makes that very tough so I think I'd play around with the Aasimar variants. I would take the archetype that lets you swap out lay on hands for smite - its Oath of Vengeance - take TWF first, then Shield Bash, power attack, etc.
Two weapon fighting is only really effective when you have an additional damage source, which in this case would be smite. Getting as many smites as possible and balancing your armour choices with your necessarily higher dex would be the major issues.
I think you will likely be too feat starved for toughness to be worth keeping. I would go TWF, Improved Shield Bash, Double Slice, Power Attack, maybe?
Maybe Str 16 Dex 16 Con 14 Int 9 Wis 7 Cha 16, which works with either Angel-kin or Musetouched, I prefer the later as I think its Glitterdust spell-like ability better fits thematically than alter self. If you can convince yourself to take an eastern armour Tatami-do from Ultimate Combat would allow you to use your Dex and is +7. It costs 1000gp and would give you the same AC you would get in fullplate, but a better touch AC.
Grrr, but you probably need to use a Light Shield for that, so your AC would be one lower. So you would have an AC 1 lower than your current build in plate. IMO you would be worse now, but better at 4+ continuing to strengthen comparatively.
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Well, we'll see how it goes! I think I may be too stubborn, lol. (That is a pretty good paladin trait, though.)
He is angel-kin and switched out Alter Self for Incorruptible (although I don't know when I am going to use it) because it made more sense for the character. Perhaps if I/we later did some Year of the Demon scenarios or something. (Same with my other trait - Treerazer's Bane - which he has as coming from Greengold in Kyonin.)
On stats, I went with:
Str 18, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 7, Cha 16
I couldn't sacrifice Int, again because of character and role-playing issues mainly, though skills do come in handy more in PFS, it seems. (I tried to do it with a cleric, with good character reasons, but couldn't make it work for me.) I couldn't go with the eastern armors, either, at least not without some justifying.
Muse-touched, in particular, seemed too off - more Bard than Paladin.
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If you are going to remain sword and board, id probably suggest dropping Str to 16 and shoring up your Wis. The 2 extra points of Str dont really do much for the onehander, but +2 to your will can be gamebreaking. Or you could up your Dex possibly, maybe go 14 Dex, 8 Wisdom.
About the trait you mentioned, I don't think it works with Divine Grace. In another discussion, I was told you cant get the same stat to the same thing twice. In my case it was Weapon Finesse and Furys Fall, effectively meaning 2x dex mod on Trip combat maneuvers. But was told you couldn't do that.
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Jorag,
I would think it would work, since it just substitutes one base characteristic - Cha - for another - Wis, and then the Divine Grace (I had the name wrong...) is a generic bonus to all saves. They seem different in effect and structure, but it might be worth some searching. (With your situation, IIUC, it seems to be trying to add the same thing - Dex bonus - twice to something.)
As an aside, I think it is a shame that the Pathfinder rules do not support sword-and-shield as the optimal choice for most melee types. It was the preference of nearly every warrior in the real world who could afford to armor himself. Sure, there were a lot of exceptions, but seriously, almost no one in the real world used greatswords and pole arms were the weapons of peasants or of trained cadres. Noblemen used sword and shield as a default throughout most of the Middle Ages.
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As an aside, I think it is a shame that the Pathfinder rules do not support sword-and-shield as the optimal choice for most melee types. It was the preference of nearly every warrior in the real world who could afford to armor himself. Sure, there were a lot of exceptions, but seriously, almost no one in the real world used greatswords and pole arms were the weapons of peasants or of trained cadres. Noblemen used sword and shield as a default throughout most of the Middle Ages.
+1. It sure seems to be a complete reversal from the days of "Chainmail". Now, with the Dex limitations and the speed and armor check penalties, armor is often more trouble than it is worth. Dex, wand of shield and mage armor, and various class bonuses seem the way to go, in my admittedly fairly ignorant opinion.
Depends on how you were fighting really, I was never a fan of sword n board unless it REALLY fit the character.
Anyhow, PF is more high fantasy, Oti probably doesn't wear a helmet as it would mess up his hair - still has the same AC though :)
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In the case of my particular example, James Jacobs chimed in and voted against it. By no means Raw, but I accept his judgement.
Furys Fall adds your Dex bonus to Trip combat maneuvers only. Weapon Finesse adds your Dex to the roll on weapon based maneuvers, namely, Trip, Disarm and Sunder.
The effects are different but you are adding the same stat.
Your example seems to be the same, with Weapon Finesse being equivalent to Divine Grace. If you want a perfect comparison, we could use Agile Maneuvers instead, which applies to all combat maneuvers, much like Divine Grace applies to all saves. The Trait is then the equivalent of Furys Fall, another effect that adds the same stat to a specific subset of the same thing (maneuver, but only Trip) with the trait also adding to a subset (will saves, but only Charms and Compulsions.)
I am mostly arguing this with you, because it would suck to find out you have an illegal character. Well, not illegal, but one with a wasted trait :)
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I still don't see it, but I'll read it again in a bit and possibly see if the boards have an opinion - my computer is acting up and the cursor is jumping all over the place.
The Divine Grace also says "a paladin gains a bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws", while it could just say "a paladin adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to all saving throws". My brain parses that as implying that it is equal to, but not the same as, the Charisma bonus. Among other things, it is positive only, unlike a simple Charisma modifier.
Edit: I went ahead and asked the question on the James Jacob's thread, but it is probably all more trouble than it is worth. While Oti could be rewritten, it would kind of suck to have to change course with my Oracle of Life (currently, at a measly level 3, one of my top characters). That would be a bit discouraging.
I am not sure about this situation, but you can have situations where the same stat is added to as a bonus more than once. Specifically with Divine Grace and http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle/mysteries/paizo---oracl e-mysteries/lore from Oracles, you get Cha to Dex twice. There is a wording there that specifically allows it though, which I don't believe is the case with this situation.