I'll admit that I wouldn't consider playing a goblin or rogue. I tend to play humans. However, if you wish to play one as a Ranger that's great. They appear to make good Rogues too. Otherwise that is a racial feature rather that a class feature. Weighing the merits or demerits of that would take this discussion even further off course.
Buildwise, wouldn't a dex based Ranger or Bard be able to stealth just as well and in the bard's case better with buffs?
Additionally, the extra umph to stealth you get from Skill Focus(Stealth), is coming from a racial feature =)
Rogues can grab skill mastery at lvl 10 to and take 10 on skills like stealth, bluff, and UMD.
If your stealth mod is +10 higher than their perception mod, you auto pass check.
Rogues can grab skill mastery at lvl 10 to and take 10 on skills like stealth, bluff, and UMD.
If your stealth mod is +10 higher than their perception mod, you auto pass check.
That is a solid argument. Tis a shame Skill Mastery comes so late.
the rogue works as is many different options and abilities its awesome.This sentence no verb.
Actually it is two complete sentences and one fragment jammed between
1. The rogue works as is. (badly constructed but viable.2. It's awesome.
Fragment: many different options.
Plenty of verbs here... Just no punctuation. ;)
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I find rogues are fairly good in parties. especially when your GM can run games ton there strengths (traps!) And they can do a fair bit of damage. I always suggest starting as a fighter for 1st level. Then go rogue. This gives you access to a lot of nice feats. Also always go -combat trick, weapon finesse, weapon training, and fast stealth or offensive defense. For your 4 rogue talents IMO as this frees up 3 feat slots. Improved two weapon fighting is a great boon at level nine (take combat trick at 8 for improved twf) boom. full round sneak attacks without flanking.
I really enjoy stacking offensive defense + combat expertise to tick people off haha.
I also posted about 5 pages ago how I wanted to do a bit of an analysis on how various builds should play out in an AP. I took a snap shot from three APs that I’ve run and have the following. I’ll reference this a bit with my builds below.
** spoiler omitted **
On the traps issue, because i am playing Jade Regent and i am DMing Shattered Star, the number of traps you have listed is misleading.
Yes in Shattered Star book 2 there are 3 traps but 1 of them is a plot trap that can't kill you and the 2 others are simple pit traps at levels 5 and 6. So no a rogue isn't needed.
Altough this one is a magical trap it can be bypassed with an easy spellcraft check, so no a rogue isn't needed.
I'll admit that I wouldn't consider playing a goblin or rogue. I tend to play humans. However, if you wish to play one as a Ranger that's great. They appear to make good Rogues too. Otherwise that is a racial feature rather that a class feature. Weighing the merits or demerits of that would take this discussion even further off course.
Buildwise, wouldn't a dex based Ranger or Bard be able to stealth just as well and in the bard's case better with buffs?
Additionally, the extra umph to stealth you get from Skill Focus(Stealth), is coming from a racial feature =)
True enough. I think either could do that, but they have to focus on it a bit more. And the little experiment made me more aware that you can't just slap some ranks in Stealth and call your self good at scouting. You need to aim more at ranks that are closer to 10 plus your level.
I also posted about 5 pages ago how I wanted to do a bit of an analysis on how various builds should play out in an AP. I took a snap shot from three APs that I’ve run and have the following. I’ll reference this a bit with my builds below.
** spoiler omitted **
On the traps issue, because i am playing Jade Regent and i am DMing Shattered Star, the number of traps you have listed is misleading.
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
I really didn't mean to be pro or con there, or misleading. Just pointing out how many traps were there, which really wasn't a big number.
I really didn't mean to be pro or con there, or misleading. Just pointing out how many traps were there, which really wasn't a big number.I also posted about 5 pages ago how I wanted to do a bit of an analysis on how various builds should play out in an AP. I took a snap shot from three APs that I’ve run and have the following. I’ll reference this a bit with my builds below.
** spoiler omitted **
On the traps issue, because i am playing Jade Regent and i am DMing Shattered Star, the number of traps you have listed is misleading.
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
Ok i am sorry i misread it.
Two weapon feint is enhanced by greater feint.
Humun or Half-elf works for the feats
L1: Skill Focus (Bluff), Two Weapon Fighting
L2: Finesse Rogue Talent
L3: Combat Expertise
L4: Combat trick(Improved Feint)
L5: Skill focus(UMD)
L6: Weapon Training (Shortsword)
L7: Two Weapon Feint
L8: Ninja Trick(combat trick(Greater Feint))
L9: Improved TWF
L10: Skill Mastery(Bluff, Stealth, UMD)
With that you give up 1 attack to make your foe lose their dex bonus to AC and do the rest of your attacks as sneak attacks without the need to flank. That foe loses their dex bonus to AC for everyone not just the rogue.
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Why would you take Improved Feint/Greater Feint and Two Weapon Feint? If you want Two Weapon Feint (and to apply feint for your full turn) then take Improved Two Weapon Feint.
The problem with either of these routes though is the loss of action. Improved Feint/Greater Feint is a move action which forgoes a full attack. Two Weapon Feint basically does the same until level 8 (but with an additional -2 to hit). Your best bet for full attack feinting is to feint as a swift action through Moonlight Stalker Feint or the more limited Wave Strike.
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1 |Combat Expertise, Skill Focus(Bluff)
2 |Finesse Rogue
3 |Deceitful
4 |Combat Trick(Improved Feint)
5 |Skill Focus(UMD)
6 |Minor Magic(Prestidigitation)
7 |Arcane Strike
8 |Major Magic(Silent Image)
9 |Greater Feint
10|Skill Mastery(Bluff, UMD, Stealth, Disable Device, Acrobatics)
11|Extra Rogue Talent(Opportunist)
12|Familiar
13|Improved Familiar(Small Air Elemental)
14|Crippling Strike
15|Extra Rogue talent(Dispelling Attack)
16|Feat(Combat Reflexes)
17|Extra Rogue Talent(Hard to fool)
18|Unwitting Ally
19|Quick Draw
20|Skill Mastery
*If mythic*
Mythic Feats: Weapon Finesse, Arcane Strike, Improved Familiar, Combat Expertise, Deceitful
Mythic Path: Longevity, Impossible Speed, Fleet Warrior, Precision, Precision, Limitless Range, Unstoppable Shot, Perfect Strike, Critical Master, Critical Master
At lvl 11 with a +1 agile rapier and 22 dex
Feint + Opportunist + Arcane Strike = 2 sneak attacks at +15 to-hit for 7d6+10
Flanking + Haste + Opportunist + Arcane Strike =4 sneak attack at +18/+18/+18/+13 to-hit for 7d6+10
(rough math for fighter to-hit = 11-3+2+2+6 = 18, rough math on damage 2d6+22)
Why would you take Improved Feint/Greater Feint and Two Weapon Feint? If you want Two Weapon Feint (and to apply feint for your full turn) then take Improved Two Weapon Feint.
The problem with either of these routes though is the loss of action. Improved Feint/Greater Feint is a move action which forgoes a full attack. Two Weapon Feint basically does the same until level 8 (but with an additional -2 to hit). Your best bet for full attack feinting is to feint as a swift action through Moonlight Stalker Feint or the more limited Wave Strike.
"Greater Feint (Combat)
You are skilled at making foes overreact to your attacks.Prerequisites: Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, base attack bonus +6, Int 13.
Benefit: Whenever you use feint to cause an opponent to lose his Dexterity bonus, he loses that bonus until the beginning of your next turn, in addition to losing his Dexterity bonus against your next attack.
Normal: A creature you feint loses its Dexterity bonus against your next attack."
Greater feint augments ALL feinting. Including that done with two weapon feint
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Also, I do not think Greater Feint (or Feinting in general) applies to everyone in combat with the target. The fact that there is a teamwork feat (Feint Partner) that specifically grants the feint bonus to an ally with the feat as well as the wording of the feint action seems to imply that Feint/Improved Feint/Greater Feint only work for the person doing the feint, not any allies.
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I do not contest that Greater Feint augments all feinting, I contest that you do not need both Improved Feint and Two Weapon Feint. Take either Improved Feint/Greater Feint or Two Weapon Feint/Improved Two Weapon Feint. The latter's only difference is you will not get the feint bonus for AoOs that happen after your turn.
Also, I do not think Greater Feint (or Feinting in general) applies to everyone in combat with the target.
"Feint Partner (Combat, Teamwork)
A little diversion is all you need to slip through your foe’s defenses.Prerequisite: Bluff 1 rank.
Benefit: Whenever an ally who also has this feat successfully feints an opponent, that opponent also loses his Dexterity bonus to AC against the next attack you make against him before the end of the feinting ally’s next turn."
That feat does not require improved feint or greater feint. You cannot assume that it was meant to augment greater feint.
I do not contest that Greater Feint augments all feinting, I contest that you do not need both Improved Feint and Two Weapon Feint. Take either Improved Feint/Greater Feint or Two Weapon Feint/Improved Two Weapon Feint. The latter's only difference is you will not get the feint bonus for AoOs that happen after your turn.
Greater feint lowers the AC of the target for everyone though. That's pseudo inspire courage. I thinks it's worth the extra feat to get it over improved two weapon feint.
Furthermore, you can grab improved feint at lower levels, which when you only have two attacks from TWF, improved feint is better than two weapon feint.
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No, I can assume it was meant to augment the feint action which is what all of the feint specific feats are meant to augment. Feinting is an action your character does to a single opponent in melee to accrue an advantage (deny DEX bonus to your next attack). Any additional feinting oriented feats are designed to improve this action.
Now I would rule if you have Feint Partner and Greater Feint then your ally gets the debuff bonus until the beginning of your next turn. If using Improved Two Weapon Feint (and Feint Partner) then it would be good until the end of his (ally) turn.
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Where does it say that Greater Feint applies to all allies? Feint applies to your next attack as does Improved Feint. Greater Feint simply allows you to extend the feint condition until your next turn giving you a full attack action and any AoOs under that condition. Nowhere does it state that the condition applies to allies attacking the target. Since there is a specific feat that allows that to happen I contest that the Greater Feint only works for the feinter. It sucks, but then so does Shatter Defenses for the same reason.
No, I can assume it was meant to augment the feint action which is what all of the feint specific feats are meant to augment. Feinting is an action your character does to a single opponent in melee to accrue an advantage (deny DEX bonus to your next attack). Any additional feinting oriented feats are designed to improve this action.
Now I would rule if you have Feint Partner and Greater Feint then your ally gets the debuff bonus until the beginning of your next turn. If using Improved Two Weapon Feint (and Feint Partner) then it would be good until the end of his (ally) turn.
Please show me where in greater feint it specifies that YOU are the only person the target has loss dex bonus too.
Greater feint augments the feint action. The feint action only benefits you.
feint makes them lose their dex bonus for your next attack. Greater feint says they lose their dex bonus for 1 round with no specification that it is only for your attack. It even goes so far as to clarify that this effect is in addition to the normal one inflicted by feint.
Some other people talking about this topic
Thread about something else involving feint
I have not seen anyone else question whether or not greater feint helped allies.
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What can I say, I disagree with the assessment of a few forum posters in a three year old thread. There is a clear wording in the rules for how the feint action works. Greater Feint augments the feint action by allowing you to use the debuff until the start of your next turn. This is a benefit for AoOs and if your feint as a swift action. The fact that there is a feat that specifically grants the feint debuff to an ally only supports the argument that Greater Feint is self only.
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If it really matters so much, simply house rule it to work how you want. If it is for PFS then that is a different can of worms and you may see some table variation. Personally as a DM I would not allow it to benefit allies as written. As a player who is currently playing a feint crazy Swashbuckler I have it only apply to my attacks.
The last thread I linked to was from last year...
The teamwork feat does not require greater feint, you can't assume that it was written to augment greater feint.
I can't find anyone else in any thread ever that shares your view or ever even questions whether or not greater feint worked like it does.
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I can't find any post from a Paizo rep that supports your interpretation either. The wording in the rules is pretty clear. Nowhere in the wording for Greater Feint does it state or imply that it applies to allies. This is an assumption on the part of a few forum posters. I am only expressing how I as a DM rule it and how as a player I use it. You have a few people saying one thing in other threads and two people saying something else in this thread. Each are entitled to their opinion until Paizo comes down with a FAQ clarification. In the end, house rule it to how you interpret it and call it good.
Look I see nothing that proves your stance by RAW and both consensus and RAI is against you.
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By RAW, feint is a standard action that if successful applies a debuff to your target for your next attack.
Improved Feint modifies the feint action to be a move instead of a standard action.
Greater Feint further modifies the feint action to apply the debuff to your next attack and has it carry over until your next turn. This allows for you to attack the DEX-less target for a full attack (if you take a feat to allow feinting as a swift action) and for any AoOs that trigger before your next turn. At no point in the text for the feat does it state that the opponent loses DEX for attacks from other sources.
Now RAI may be something else but RAW is pretty specific on how the feint action works. RAI is why we have house rules.
This is a benefit for AoOs and if your feint as a swift action. The fact that there is a feat that specifically grants the feint debuff to an ally only supports the argument that Greater Feint is self only.
This isn't exactly true as far as I understand. Greater Feint is not a swift action. The only advantage over Improved Feint is that with Greater Feint, the opponents Dex is lost until the beginning of the Rogues next turn. It doesn't even allow the Rogue to full attack since it is still a Move action.
Thus I thought the "common" interpretation was that the Dex loss was a buff for anyone else in combat with that foe.
Is there anything that would allow Feint as a swift action?
By RAW, feint is a standard action that if successful applies a debuff to your target for your next attack.
Improved Feint modifies the feint action to be a move instead of a standard action.
Greater Feint further modifies the feint action to apply the debuff to your next attack and has it carry over until your next turn. This allows for you to attack the DEX-less target for a full attack (if you take a feat to allow feinting as a swift action) and for any AoOs that trigger before your next turn. At no point in the text for the feat does it state that the opponent loses DEX for attacks from other sources.
Now RAI may be something else but RAW is pretty specific on how the feint action works. RAI is why we have house rules.
I really don't care about 1 person's opinion about RAW when his argument is poor.
I disagree. That is not RAW and you are wrong. The existence of a team work feat that augments feint has no baring on greater feint which also augments feint. Furthermore Greater Feint clearly states that the target loses their dex bonus until your next turn. No other amendments to that statement.
Thus I thought the "common" interpretation was that the Dex loss was a buff for anyone else in combat with that foe.
It is. There are two people who exist that argue otherwise.
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No need to get all uptight Marthkus. RAw is RAW. When RAW is unclear we fall back to RAI. RAI is where house rules come into play. I was not trying to be rude I was simply stating things as I see it. If you do not agree with my opinion that is your prerogative. But just because we disagree does not make one rude. Keep it civil please.
No need to get all uptight Marthkus. RAw is RAW. When RAW is unclear we fall back to RAI. RAI is where house rules come into play. I was not trying to be rude I was simply stating things as I see it. If you do not agree with my opinion that is your prerogative. But just because we disagree does not make one rude. Keep it civil please.
RAW is RAW, but sometimes it's hard to interpret. Other times people are completely wrong and call everyone else's interpretation RAI and houserules.
You can agree to disagree about the RAW without assuming everyone who doesn't agree with you is using houserules.
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...Battlefield control Rogue: (similar in play style to my 3.5 rogue)
Uses a combination of reach from the whip, combat reflexes, and high dex to increase attacks per round without the -2 penalty from TWF. Usually gets off more attacks per battle than TWF. (Hard to quantify)
How to use:
Before fight (you scouted first, right) Shield wand, Enlarge person wand to increase reach to 15’ if large group
Surprise round: buff or charge, your choice
Round 1: Choose: buff yourself (while keeping the fighter’s charge lane clear), delay for the fighter, move in to attack (single opponent), or use dazzling display (multiple opponents).
Round 2: Get into position where you can reach multiple opponents if you haven't already. Back to back with the fighter works exceptionally well.
At this point your opponents are shaken, sickened and unable to move even a 5’ step without drawing an AoO that deals SA damage. -2 Strength, -4 to all d20 rolls -3 damage and your AC goes up +6 for a total of +11AC. Keep moving to force them to move. Laugh maniacally as you and your besty the fighter mop them up.
On the rare occasion that your opponent goes first, they still have to get past your reach. As they charge in, use your AoO’s to make them shaken and set up for sneak attacks.Half-Orc (City Raised) Rogue (Scout, Thug) 12
Lawful Neutral Humanoid (Human, Orc); Deity: Torag
STRENGTH 11, DEXTERITY 20/24, CONSTITUTION 14/16, INTELLIGENCE 10, WISDOM 10, CHARISMA 14/16
Fort +7, Reflex +15, WILL +4, AC 28
+1 Agile, Ghost touch Whip S, Disarm, Nonlethal, Reach, Trip, +18/+13, 1d3+8
Acrobatics +21, Bluff +10, Diplomacy +10, Disable Device +23, Disguise +10, Escape Artist +21, Intimidate +23, Perception +15, Stealth +21, Use Magic Device +21
Feats: Combat Reflexes (8 AoO/round), Dazzling Display (Whip), Enforcer, Improved Whip Mastery, Shadow Strike, Shatter Defenses (Whip), Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Whip), Whip Mastery
Traits: Defensive Strategist (Torag), Armor
Gray,
UMB is 9 but that is irrelevant. He is using Intimidate (23) versus HD + Wis bonus + 10 or Sense Motive. That is enough to intimidate almost every 12th level fighter on a 1. A CR12 dragon needs a 4. Skill focus or skill mastery would probably be a good addition to guarantee success.Note that I left some money on the table for number buffers to flesh out as you see fit.
typical combat against a melee type goes like this:
Scout
Buff: protection from evil, Shield
Sneak up or charge in the surprise round, Crack! Shaken, Sickened, -2Str, all attacks for the next 5 minutes are SA's
Round 1, win initiative 75% of the time, Crack! Crack! two SA's and Frightened 1 round, 5ft step closer.
His turn: AoO as he runs away frightened. Crack! SA.
Round 2: Advance, Crack! Frightened again. Keep chasing his pathetic butt down the street till he drops or learns his lesson.
If he manages to turn and fight, take AoO as he approaches. You can play fighter yo-yo like this all day averaging 4 attacks to his 1
Greater Feint (Combat)
You are skilled at making foes overreact to your attacks.
Prerequisites: Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, base attack bonus +6, Int 13.
Benefit: Whenever you use feint to cause an opponent to lose his Dexterity bonus, he loses that bonus until the beginning of your next turn, in addition to losing his Dexterity bonus against your next attack.
Normal: A creature you feint loses its Dexterity bonus against your next attack.
Read that again. Notice the parts before and after "in addition to". The after part is how a standard or improved Feint works. The before part is what Greater adds to the mix. You've just bluffed the guy so bad, he's stumbled and can't use Dex against anyone's incoming attacks until your next turn.
Also unlike what has been mentioned here, you cannot Greater Feint someone as a Move Action, SA them with your single attack, and then full-attack SA them the following round. On the following round at the beginning of your turn, the "no dex" condition goes away, so he has his dex back before you can start attacking.
Marthkus is right.
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But you can Greater Feint as a swift action, then full attack and AoO sneak attacks until the start of your next turn. I still do not see where it states that the loss of the Dexterity bonus applies to other attackers. If it stated that "he loses that bonus to all attackers until the beginning of your next turn" I would agree with you. But it does not make that clarification. As it is written the benefit of the feat is for AoOs and swift feinters.
But you can Greater Feint as a swift action, then full attack and AoO sneak attacks until the start of your next turn.
You should clarify that IF you can feint as a swift action
For example, with this feat
Moonlight Stalker Feint (Combat)
You strike through the shadows so quickly that your opponent can barely react to your attacks.
Prerequisite: Int 13, Blind-Fight, Combat Expertise, Moonlight Stalker, Bluff 6 ranks, darkvision or low-light vision racial trait.
Benefit: Once per round, against an opponent from whom you have concealment, you can spend a swift action to make a Bluff check to feint.
Normal: Feinting is a standard action.