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I have been playing a fair number of 5-6 player games lately. The biggest problem with this number of players is the fact that, no matter how you set up the location decks, some of them are either far away or upside-down from some players. This makes it tough for players to review the options and limitations available to them when they want to consider moving / going to a new location.
Struck upon an idea: what about a lazy susan / turntable? Assume a layout where the location card and deck are placed side-by-side. Character tokens are placed above those - it would make sense to use miniatures or cardboard stand-ups for this layout, because things could get a bit crowded. Simple geometry would indicate that a lazy susan that's 22" is about the minimum size required for this sort of layout...larger might afford one more space. Getting an unfinished lazy susan would allow one to put custom stenciling on it marking the card placings...maybe even the card game logo in the center.
Thoughts? Has anyone tried playing with one of these, with this sort of setup? Most lazy susans of this size would be at least as expensive as the game itself, so I'm hesitant to just order one...but it seems to me that it would improve the large-player games considerably.
That is an excellent idea. Vic, sign a license!
An idea I've been toying with, that could supplement yours, is using business card holders to prop the location decks up vertically. This would allow you to reduce the footprint of each location. You would need to put something on the back so the bottom card isn't visible, but that shouldn't be a big deal.
Staples has some clear plastic business card holders in which the cards would fit sideways, sleeved or unsleeved* (Ultra Pro Deck-Protector sleeves fit perfectly, but FFG sleeves are slightly too tall). They have single bay up to 6-bay (2 wide, 3 deep).
The 6-bay ones could hold 2 locations (location card in front (vertical on bottom), location deck in middle (horizontal on side), cards-to-be-boxed* in back (horizontal on side).
*(I don't banish them right away, so I can see what's come up of each type from each location without relying on Ol' Rusty... my brain).
I haven't purchased them yet, nor have I taken any measurements, but I'm guessing you could probably fit it all onto a much smaller Lazy Susan... I'm thinking household cupboard sized.
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The problem of "turntable size" would actually be compounded if one uses those business card holders, as the size-limitation doesn't come into play with the diameter, but rather the circumference. Putting cards short-side out, with eight locations, side-by-side (two ~ 66mm card-widths per location, say 140-150mm), is what necessitates the 22" diameter...long-side out might actually increase the necessary size of the turntable. It's really about how many cards you can fit around the outside edge, not necessarily across the circle...although putting them upright would keep them from "touching each other" in the center...would have to calculate. Vertical business-card holders would indeed reduce the necessary size...will have to look into those.
Hopefully Mike's response indicates that an official PACG turntable / Lazy Susan might come out at some point in the future...the most reasonable one I could find was an unfinished MDF one that you still have to pay shipping on top of. A plastic or colored glass one, with the layout pre-printed, could be the same cost or cheaper than the MDF one, and at a larger size (say, 26"), if produced in enough quantity (even a small batch like 50). EDIT: Although I am kind of digging the idea of custom-painting an MDF turntable with a gloss urethane finish...could look really nice...
The problem of "turntable size" would actually be compounded if one uses those business card holders, as the size-limitation doesn't come into play with the diameter, but rather the circumference. Putting cards short-side out, with eight locations, side-by-side (two ~ 66mm card-widths per location, say 140-150mm), is what necessitates the 22" diameter...long-side out might actually increase the necessary size of the turntable. It's really about how many cards you can fit around the outside edge, not necessarily across the circle...although putting them upright would keep them from "touching each other" in the center...would have to calculate. Vertical business-card holders would indeed reduce the necessary size...will have to look into those.
I'm confused... are you agreeing with my suggestion of using business card holders, or not? You say it would make it worse, but then you say vertical (which is indeed what I originally suggested: "to prop the location decks up vertically") would reduce the size and make it better.
I just got back from a Staples run, and I was mistaken about the 6-bay holders; they're actually 1, 4, or 8 (I was thinking 1, 3, and 6), which would make them way too large (not to mention pricey) to be practical. My original design would have been to use 4 of these arranged like the Chase logo, so at roughly 8 inches wide and 4 inches deep, it would make a square block 12 inches at a side (which would fit onto a 17-inch Lazy Susan without corners poking over.
I did pick up some of the singles, and arranged them how I would put them onto a Lazy Susan and took a picture. I did a rough measure, and it is about 12 inches in diameter (allowing some space between them). If I were to add a second layer of singles (for my banish piles), it would add about 2 inches to the diameter, for a total of about 14 inches.
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I'm confused... are you agreeing with my suggestion of using business card holders, or not? You say it would make it worse, but then you say vertical (which is indeed what I originally suggested: "to prop the location decks up vertically") would reduce the size and make it better.
You said "sideways." There are two types of business card holders that hold them upright: those with the long-edge facing up / down, and those with the short-edge facing up / down. "Propping them up vertically" could mean upright either way; it wasn't clear what you meant. The business card holders also aren't doing what I described in my original post, which was having the location deck side-by-side with the location card.
But they do look nice...and I have that size turntable in my corner cabinet. Might have to check that out, and see if a smaller turntable requires a lot of "reach" on the part of the players at my table and the table at work where we play. The other issue is that of player tokens...they need to be placed on the turntable somewhere. A larger turntable might still be ideal.
You said "sideways." There are two types of business card holders that hold them upright: those with the long-edge facing up / down, and those with the short-edge facing up / down. "Propping them up vertically" could mean upright either way; it wasn't clear what you meant. The business card holders also aren't doing what I described in my original post, which was having the location deck side-by-side with the location card.
Fair enough, I should have been more clear; I'm sorry about that. I see I also neglected to point out that a 68-bay would hold 2 locations: left being one location, right being a second.
But they do look nice...and I have that size turntable in my corner cabinet. Might have to check that out, and see if a smaller turntable requires a lot of "reach" on the part of the players at my table and the table at work where we play. The other issue is that of player tokens...they need to be placed on the turntable somewhere. A larger turntable might still be ideal.
Yes, a small turn table with this configuration wouldn't have much room for token cards; my thought would be that they would fit into the front bay, behind the location card. Granted, it's not as visibly obvious as having them laid out, but I my reason for this is more for space and less for convenience.
There are also printable cut-out tokens on BGG for each character, or you could use the minis. (Mike/Vic: do I get commission for referals? :] )
Hopefully Mike's response indicates that an official PACG turntable / Lazy Susan might come out at some point in the future...
This is a presumption fraught with peril. I don't sign licenses, and my comment was simply meant to encourage people to try this cool idea.
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Gotcha. I am going to be making my own custom one anyways, so it would have been out for me.
Priced the clear stands; they're actually kind of expensive, and negate any cost-savings one might realize from buying a smaller turntable vs. a larger one pre-made. The Lazy Susan bearings are pretty cheap on Amazon; wood can't be that expensive...and it would be easier (and perhaps better) to cut it into an octagonal shape rather than round. Going to price a laser-cutting place nearby to figure out what can be done re: a pattern...the idea of a two-tone stain or paint is appealing. Will have to see.
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Those look nice. A friend and I have some ideas for a custom turntable that would be a bit more functional; won't have all the accoutrements of the "stonehenge" layout, but would likely work better for the game. Should also be very reasonable and use stock parts from Amazon / Home Depot.
I am less certain about having a turntable laser-etched...I'm somewhat concerned that future iterations of the game will make changes to the layout / function of the locations that might render the base "inaccurate." One option would be to make the base modular, with plates that one can add & remove as necessary...that adds complication and cost, though. Probably just leave it plain for now, although it's tempting.
We've been using the built-in lazy Susan on the dining room table and it works very well indeed :). The things to remember are don't leave your cards on it when you spin it around for the next player, and don't spin it quickly.
All our LCGs are played this way these days. It is the nicest way.
Chief Technical Officer
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Hopefully Mike's response indicates that an official PACG turntable / Lazy Susan might come out at some point in the future...This is a presumption fraught with peril. I don't sign licenses, and my comment was simply meant to encourage people to try this cool idea.
Licensing such a thing would only add unnecessary cost to the end consumer to put our logo on something that's probably not cheap to begin with.
Plus, the ideal turntable would factor in your table size and the number of characters in your group.
It's an ideal do-it-yourself project, though, and those photos are very cool!
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Vic,
Thanks for the great idea. My Wife and I decided to try the do-it-yourself method and came up with a pretty workable board. Anyone who wants to check it out I posted some pics on Photobucket
We made it in just a few days, with stuff from around the house. Only had to buy the lazy susan and some card holders. Total cost to us, $23.00. If you had to get all the stuff yourself I think you could make one for about $30-50 depending on how good a shopper you are.
Special thanks to my wife painting all the runes around the outer edges.
It works great so far, and is very portable.
James
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The map in the center is from the Rise of the Runelords Map Folio. I printed it on a nice piece of parchment paper then burned the edges to get the cool look on it. Then I laminated it and glued to the board. It's the Varisia Poster map, so it shows a lot of the locations from the scenarios like Sandpoint and Hook Mountain.
The other picture is just a collection of all the Iconic Characters printed out on a 4x6 photo.
I found a lot of ideas for the board in the Rise of the Runelords anniversary hardback campaign book.
If anyone is looking for more background info to make the Rise of the Runelords Adventure Path even more fun I would suggest picking it up.
I also posted some of the pictures on Boardgamegeek.com if anyone wants to check them out there.
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What type of card holders are those? It looks like it has a spot in the center to lay the stack and a slot on either side to stand them. Is that correct? Do sleeved cards fit in them?
Thanks,
Tim
The card holders are made of acrylic. I used two at each deck location, a larger one in back for the location and a smaller one in front to place the encountered card. It also works well to keep all the cards in a nice pile. I decided not to glue the card holders down so I could adjust as needed for different size games and keep the board portable. I bring it to a game night every week, so while I love the board with the Stonehenge theme, its not overly portable.
All my cards are sleeved and they fit great, but I have also played it using a friends deck without sleeves and it worked great for that too.
All the players thought it worked out great and they loved being able to turn their own cards and read them right in front of there spot without having to get up from the table.
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I posted a link to the close up pic of the card holder below. I contacted my supplier but he is all out of them. They have to be created in batches of 100 so it may be a while until he has some for sale again.
If enough people are interested I can try and put together an order for them. They come in Small, Medium, and Large. I used 8 Medium and 11 Small for my board set up. That allowed for all 8 locations to have a stand up spot in front and back and 3 small stands for the Adventure path, Adventure and the scenario.
Go to Acrylic Card Holder Photo.
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Sorry, I should have done this to begin with but I was in a hurry with my first post. This should help those who have asked how to make a similar board.
Here is a list of everything I used to make the board.
1 16 inch Lazy Susan (link below)
1 22 inch Masonite Cake Board (link below)
1 can Gold Spray paint
1 jar Black Acrylic Paint
1 can Gloss Acrylic Sealer Paint
2 Lamination Sheets
1 tube Gorilla Glue Epoxy
1 8X10 Printout of the Pathfinder World Map
1 4X6 Picture of the Pathfinder Iconic Characters
4 felt rounds for bottom of lazy susan to keep it from sliding.
Process –
Spray painted the entire board Gold
Had my wife sketch the runes out around the board, then paint them.
Used a lighter to burn the edges of the Map
Laminated the map and photo, then glued it to the board
Sealed the entire board with Gloss Acrylic Sealer
Glued the board to the lazy susan
Put felt tabs on the bottom.
I got the info for the card holders, but only businesses can order directly. Looks like you need to order large amounts at a time. I will keep digging.
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Recently finished my custom turntable...it's multi-purpose, sort of, but it's really designed specifically for PACG. Pic:
Here's one from my own website
The central, raised "dais" does not rotate; the larger turntable around it does. You can rotate the blessing on the smaller section and place it such that it's facing the person who just turned the blessings deck. Works great, and helps everyone reach and read every location deck out there - while still being able to use the blessings deck to keep track of who turned it last. There's room enough for the scenario card on the central point, but not the adventure + adventure path cards...those have to be placed somewhere else. Not a big deal, as you're really not referring to these during the scenario.
Really not that hard to build. Parts:
24" diameter pine circle for the larger part
10" wood circle for the smaller, top part (this was the only one I was able to find online)
Rotating bearing (to make it move)...there are lots of options for this; this just happens to be the one I used.
You'll also need a 12"x12" (or thereabouts) square of wood for the base (easily cut from a plank of pine available just about anywhere - the link is way more than you need; you can probably get less), and a short (about 2-3" long and with a corner-to-corner length slightly less than the diameter of the hole you'll drill through the center) cylinder or piece of square pine to form the central "pillar" connecting the 10" circle to the base below. Lots of flexibility on what you use for this...it depends a lot on the size of the hole you want to use and whatever little bits you have available. Just make sure it's squared off on both ends so that the "dais" sits level and not lopsided.
Additionally: some brass furniture screws, L-shaped braces (couldn't find a link to these online, but I'll look), and of course tools - a drill + bits, a hole saw drill bit about 2-3" in diameter, sandpaper, wood finish + brushes, polyurethane + brushes, etc.
Obviously, this requires drilling a hole through the 24" circle - right through the center point. Finding the center is a bit of a tricky thing, and requires using a compass, piece of string, ruler, or something of that nature (Hawkmoon and I worked on this part, and we used a tool - forget the name, but since he monitors these boards constantly, I'm sure he'll chime in with it shortly). Make a few marks using 12" as the diameter of your "compass," and you should get a good idea of where the center of the 24" circle is...ditto for the 10", but with a 5" diameter on your compass.
The other trick is getting the rotating round bearing affixed to the board at just the right spot such that the rotation is perfectly circular. This just requires some precise measurements from the center of the larger 24" circle and the screw-holes in the bearing...and is a lot easier to do BEFORE you drill the hole.
Then of course you just need to do a little bit of staining (I used cherry stain here) and a few coats of polyurethane before screwing it together. Used small brass furniture screws for most of it, but affixed the 10" circle to the square "pillar" using brass L-shaped braces available at the hardware store.
Calthaer, thank you for the link to this thread! I really enjoyed playing on the lazy susan.
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The special compass we used is a beam compass.
And, as you may have learned in high school geometry, you can find the center of a circle thusly:
1. Draw a chord through the circle (i.e. a line that goes all the way through but isn't the diameter). You want to stay close to the edge of the circle. In the 24" circle, I'd recommend about an 8 inch cord.
2. Set your beam compass to a length just a little longer than half the chord. Then from one end of the chord draw an arc with the beam compass at that length. Repeat from the other end of the chord with the compass at the same length.
3. Your two arcs will intersect at two point. If you draw a line through those two points it will perfectly divide you chord in half. That line will also be a diameter line, running through the exact center of your circle. Use a straight edge to draw that line.
4. Repeat steps 1 -3 this time from the two ends of your diameter. The line you create this time will also be a diameter and will perfectly divide your previous diameter. Thus, where those two lines meet is the center of your circle.
I enjoyed this thread as well and missed it the first time around. I build a pretty cheap (about $12 worth of parts) lazy susan for our group out of a 20" pine circle, bearings, and some rubber feet.
It definately makes reaching all of the locations easy. If I can find one a little bigger I might try again and go a little more fancy.
My friend made a Pathfinder board with a lazy susan base out of LEGO.
I took this pic quickly the other day to give him the layout, as he is considering ordering smooth-topped pieces to finish the board off.
It works wonderfully and was pretty simple (although LEGO can get pricey). If you have enough pieces lying around, the lazy susan and wood are reasonably cheap, and he spray-painted the LEGO.
It works out really nicely (unless we have a 6 character party, but we're working on an add-on location).
Everything is easily accessible and laid out really well.
He did a great job on it!
What would be the future requirements for a lazy susan turntable???
How many locations max?
How many cards in each location max?
How many cards max in blessing deck?
Space for scenario and adv path card?
Are there black 1inch diameter plastic 3mm-thickness blank-stands for hard-paper-standups somewhere available? (Same as iconic heroes mini, but without figure, but standup holder equipped)
What else?
Yesterday
I'm not sure if your questions are about the Lego version or Calthaer's version but...
What would be the future requirements for a lazy susan turntable???
How many locations max?
How many cards in each location max?
How many cards max in blessing deck?
Are you asking Mike/Vic/etc. what they might do in the future? Like how many locations would be the max and how many blessings would be the max? If so, I don't think you'll get an answer. They probably don't really know. They can't say today what they will or won't do 5 years from now.
Space for scenario and adv path card?
Scenario yes. We frequently play on Calthaer's with 6 characters (so 8 locations) plus the scenario card and the ship card on stands and it all fits just fine. We could probably could fit the adventure and adventure path card too if we really wanted. But we haven't tried.
Are there black 1inch diameter plastic 3mm-thickness blank-stands for hard-paper-standups somewhere available? (Same as iconic heroes mini, but without figure, but standup holder equipped)
There are lots these things available.
Like theseI use these for my paper standees.
You could also get these, but they cost more.
But, if you are asking about standing up the location cards, I wholeheartedly recommend these. And, if you make a turntable like Calthaer's, you can slide the vertical part forward in the base pretty much as far as it will go, then slide the back of the base under the raised dias, so they are almost hugging the dias. That maximizes your space.
The special compass we used is a beam compass.
And, as you may have learned in high school geometry, you can find the center of a circle thusly:
no, that is a very cool trick though. Sweet