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John Smith's totally awesome horse!
Is it made of diamond? A diamond pony? What shall we name it...
I'm going to ignore your argument because you started with an assertion if logical fallacy. I think when discussing things that are often subjective and off the cuff that logical fallacy assertions have no place.This is the rules forum. What's being discussed is not subjective or "off the cuff", and in fact should be approached logically.
Subjective assertions of whether a given power level is acceptable are not appropriate to this section of the boards, while logical arguments are entirely appropriate; not the other way around, as you assert
Nowhere in the rules forun description is it stated that RAW reigns supreme here. Discussing probable intent and holding RAI higher than RAW is in no way in conflict with this forums stated topic.
Whether it is against the intended topic is another thing, but it would be oh so ironic to argue that...
The favored class bonus works but its not going to stack with boon companion after the critters effective level comes even with your level.
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The favored class bonus works but its not going to stack with boon companion.
Well, if you had two levels in Oracle, then five classes in something else, you could have a seventh level companion, with Boon Companion.
If you had, say, two levels in Oracle, and three levels in something else, then you would not have a seventh level companion, but a fifth level companion.
There's no real point in nerfing this one favored class bonus unless you are going to nerf a dozen other powerful favored class bonuses that are available to other races.... and it would all end with everyone reverting back to having to choose between an extra hit point or an extra skill point.
I see several FC bonuses that are about on Par with this one. I'll only name a few since the point has been hammered into the ground:
1) Several extra arcana ones.
2) Extra Evolutions.
3) Dwarves can reduce misfire with firearms to 0 (on a musket thats a +3 weapon enhancement).
4) Tiefling Paladin: When healing self with LOH's heal one extra point. Pretty much no way you can argue thats worth the +1 HP several times over.
5) Alchemists +1/2 damage on bombs - it includes the splash damage, it adds up pretty fast.
It is certainly RAW that it works, and is probably RAI. It is one of the more powerful FC abilities, I'll grant that, but its not out of whack with some of the other more powerful ones.
Tim can you explain your opinion that having an animal companion at +50% your level isn't overpowered? Consider that by 20th level it would be a 30th level animal companion.
An animal companion is only one aspect of a character's class & advancement.
As mentioned above, the chart only goes to 20, so the ability pretty much caps at 12th. In addition, assuming you decide to go beyond 20 on the chart, when I'm running a game at 20th level the animal companion is generally much less effective than at lower level for the PCs as it doesn't get its own WBL to play with.Frankly, a 30th level deadly performance for 20th level bard or +20hp for each laying on hands for a tiefling paladin is probably a lot more troublesome at 20th level play.
On the other hand, my play experiences, especially at levels 15+ seem to vary wildly from what I read about on these boards, so as always YMMV.
-TimD
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Thanks for mentioning this! I don't have an easy way of telling when Additional Resources makes an update (unless there's some button to send me an email whenever they make a change that I'm missing), and none of the new books were up when I first added them. Making all the Blood of the Moon legality changes now. :)
Not to discourage any PDF purchasing, but for the purpose of discussion, the Lunar mystery is up on Archives of Nethys. And it is legal for PFS, despite what the site says.
Sure, and thanks for maintaining a useful community resource.
There's no real point in nerfing this one favored class bonus unless you are going to nerf a dozen other powerful favored class bonuses that are available to other races.... and it would all end with everyone reverting back to having to choose between an extra hit point or an extra skill point.
I can't speak for everyone in the 2) camp, but I don't see those as equivalent. Yes, many FCBs are quite powerful, but even the most egregious offenses are largely contained to race balance.
If, thanks to their FCB, a tiefling paladin is much more durable than an elf paladin, or a half-orc alchemist is a much better bomber than a gnome alchemist, that's acceptable if not ideal. Certain races being particularly suited to certain roles is an ancient hallmark of d20 systems.
Sometimes these advantages are great enough to affect class balance. Thanks to his extra spells known per level, a human sorcerer might further eclipse a human barbarian in the mid to high levels. That's unfortunate, but still acceptable.
But there's a concept much important than class balance, a concept that this FCB combo flagrantly disregards: class identity. The barbarian is content with not being the superstar in most situations, as long as he's still the best at barbarian-y things. He's still okay if the rogue might be a bit better at dishing melee damage, since each of those classes are supposed to have their own methods of filling that role. But when the rogue starts raging with more rounds per day and better bonuses, then the barbarian gets sad, even if he's still stronger than the rogue in other areas.
If the elf and aasimar FCB were only for druids (or rangers, or cavaliers, or paladins), I wouldn't have a problem with it. But as it is, it allows the oracle to surpass the druid, etc., not in some shared class feature like divine spellcasting, but in a quintessential druid area, which the oracle only dips into as an afterthought.
It wasn't enough for the oracle to build her mansion right across the street, she had to make it look just like the druid's house but with a bigger garage, a swimming pool, and a helicopter pad.
Thanks for mentioning this! I don't have an easy way of telling when Additional Resources makes an update (unless there's some button to send me an email whenever they make a change that I'm missing), and none of the new books were up when I first added them. Making all the Blood of the Moon legality changes now. :)
Not to discourage any PDF purchasing, but for the purpose of discussion, the Lunar mystery is up on Archives of Nethys. And it is legal for PFS, despite what the site says.Sure, and thanks for maintaining a useful community resource.
There's no real point in nerfing this one favored class bonus unless you are going to nerf a dozen other powerful favored class bonuses that are available to other races.... and it would all end with everyone reverting back to having to choose between an extra hit point or an extra skill point.I can't speak for everyone in the 2) camp, but I don't see those as equivalent. Yes, many FCBs are quite powerful, but even the most egregious offenses are largely contained to race balance.
If, thanks to their FCB, a tiefling paladin is much more durable than an elf paladin, or a half-orc alchemist is a much better bomber than a gnome alchemist, that's acceptable if not ideal. Certain races being particularly suited to certain roles is an ancient hallmark of d20 systems.
Sometimes these advantages are great enough to affect class balance. Thanks to his extra spells known per level, a human sorcerer might further eclipse a human barbarian in the mid to high levels. That's unfortunate, but still acceptable.
But there's a concept much important than class balance, a concept that this FCB combo flagrantly disregards: class identity. The barbarian is content with not being the superstar in most situations, as long as he's still the best at barbarian-y things. He's still okay if the rogue might be a bit better at dishing melee damage, since each of those classes are...
Amazing post. I agree wholeheartedly. This is the reason the Rogue is one of the worst classes in the game. It's class identity has been robbed of it by other classes. Other folks can sneak, find, and disable traps better. Magic Traps were pretty much never able to be disabled by rogues anyways with the DCs so high.
My biggest problem with this is granting the FCB to a race. That instantly hamstrings people into playing a race because they want to be powerful characters. Why not just have some FCB hardwired into the class?
Its another reason so many people are playing Aasimars in PFS.
PS. To those who took up my challenge, thanks for proving that only extremely high tier damage dealers can compete. That oracle spent their FCB and one revelation to put out that much damage. Those entire characters are built around their damage. The Oracle themselves can grab a feat and get the Celestial Template and smites for their AC as well.
I don't think level-based benefits are an effect. Those are, as the druid class states, "statistics and abilities." That is not to say I don't think this is a poorly considered benefit that can probably be abused with one or more other revelations, but I don't think it works with this one.
The ARG was also errata'd recently. Those FCBs are now only +1/6, not +1/2, so it's no longer possible to have such a high level Companion.
Edit: Ha! And ninja'd by 14 seconds.
Level 7 cleric with Animal Domain, Boon Companion, Huntmaster: Human has a 10th level animal companion.
:D
So any race that can take Huntmaster can do this.
WAY better than Aasimar with an animal companion.