Does Elf or Aasimar favored class Oracle bonus affect the Animal Companion revelations?


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Liberty's Edge

21 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. 1 person marked this as a favorite.

Does the elf or aasimar favored class bonus affect the Animal Companion revelations Primal Companion from the Lunar mystery or Bonded Mount from the Nature mystery?

My opinion is no.

The favored class bonus reads

Advanced Race Guide wrote:
Add+1/2 to the oracle's level for the purpose of determining the effects of one revelation.

My interpretation is that the effect is gaining an animal companion, which in and of itself is unaffected by the oracle level. The fact each revelation says that the effective druid level is equal to the oracle level is a byproduct of having the animal companion and is not an effect and this unmodified by the favored class bonus.

If my interpretation is wrong, it means elven and aasimar oracles will have grossly overpowered animal companions.

A level 18 animal companion at level 12.

Silver Crusade

I think you're wrong and that it does effect the effective level of the animal companion.

By your reasoning, the effect of a Life oracle's channeling revelation is the ability to channel and a level 12 aasimar life oracle couldn't channel like a level 18 cleric.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Bbauzh ap Aghauzh wrote:

My opinion is no.

A level 18 animal companion at level 12.

I agree, it is more for things that have 1 min/level and deal damage based on oracle level. Etc.

Dark Archive

Bigdaddyjug wrote:

I think you're wrong and that it does effect the effective level of the animal companion.

By your reasoning, the effect of a Life oracle's channeling revelation is the ability to channel and a level 12 aasimar life oracle couldn't channel like a level 18 cleric.

Is a level 12 oracle that channels as a level 18 cleric overpowered by your reasoning?

Perhaps even if the OP is incorrect in this case, the favoured class bonuses could due with some errata to correct such powerful build options.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Bbauzh ap Aghauzh wrote:
The fact each revelation says that the effective druid level is equal to the oracle level is a byproduct of having the animal companion and is not an effect and this unmodified by the favored class bonus.

If we go with this idea, then we also have to say that any other revelations that use the language of "using your oracle level as your effective [insert class here] level" would also not benefit from this FCB. That means that aasimar life oracles can't improve their channels.

That doesn't sound right.

Liberty's Edge

Bigdaddyjug wrote:

I think you're wrong and that it does effect the effective level of the animal companion.

By your reasoning, the effect of a Life oracle's channeling revelation is the ability to channel and a level 12 aasimar life oracle couldn't channel like a level 18 cleric.

And you think that's balanced? I think they couldn't channel like an 18th level cleric. See James comment above.

Dark Archive

Jiggy, while I'm on the fence for what an oracle's favoured class bonus can do, I'm certainly not on the fence about the 'rightness' of a life oracle channelling at 1.5x their level.

A life oracle that can pull off a channel + Quick Channel healing combo of 18d6 at level 12 doesn't sound right either. Oops, 22d6 with a phylactery.

Liberty's Edge

Jiggy wrote:
Bbauzh ap Aghauzh wrote:
The fact each revelation says that the effective druid level is equal to the oracle level is a byproduct of having the animal companion and is not an effect and this unmodified by the favored class bonus.

If we go with this idea, then we also have to say that any other revelations that use the language of "using your oracle level as your effective [insert class here] level" would also not benefit from this FCB. That means that aasimar life oracles can't improve their channels.

That doesn't sound right.

Are there favored class bonuses that allow a cleric to channel better at 1/2 per level? Druid with animal companion?

If not, why can an oracle be a better channeler than a cleric or have a better Animal companion than a druid?

How does that make sense?


The animal companion is an effect of the Revelation, the favored class bonus treats your level as if it was higher for the Nature Bond Revelation.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

@Mergy - Seems fine to me. For comparison, I have a 9th-level tiefling cleric whose FCB has given him a nearly 50-50 chance of cutting through the SR of a CR 20 Balor; level-appropriate outsiders might as well not even have SR against him. (And that's an FCB with no ambiguity at all.)

With things like that as a frame of reference, no, applying the FCB to channels doesn't seem out of line at all. The PC had to choose a specific race/class combination, can't multiclass, gives up the equivalent of a feat, and doesn't even really see a noticeable return until several levels into their career.

That seems entirely appropriate to me.

Silver Crusade

In order to determine the effect of the revelation, you would first need to determine your oracle level. The aasimar FCB changes your effective class level for the effects of 1 revelation. I would say the FCB kicks in before the revelation does. Ergo, your effective oracle level is changed, then the revelation kicks in and uses your effective oracle level.

Dark Archive

We will have to agree to disagree regarding the advancement of such abilities. I personally believe that this favoured class bonus was not tested adequately with all mysteries. No one should have access to an animal companion that is so high above their own level. No one should be able to channel at a level one and a half times their own.

I don't think that matches up with spell penetration against one type of enemy at all.

Liberty's Edge

Just did a search and no race gives a level jump at all to channel or animal companions.

As such, my opinion is firmly that the elf and aasimar favored class bonus only affects activated ability effects and not static abilities that key off the oracle level being the effective <class> level.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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Mergy wrote:
I personally believe that this favoured class bonus was not tested adequately with all mysteries. No one should have access to an animal companion that is so high above their own level. No one should be able to channel at a level one and a half times their own.

What's that got to do with how it works?

If you think it's too powerful, petition Mike/John to ban it in PFS.

But as for this thread, here in the rules forum, I don't think the claim that "the effective level of the revelation-granted AniComp is somehow not a level-based effect of said revelation" is a legitimate interpretation at all.

"Applying the FCB to those revelations is too powerful" might have some legs to it. "The FCB doesn't affect those revelations" does not.

Liberty's Edge

Jiggy wrote:
Mergy wrote:
I personally believe that this favoured class bonus was not tested adequately with all mysteries. No one should have access to an animal companion that is so high above their own level. No one should be able to channel at a level one and a half times their own.

What's that got to do with how it works?

If you think it's too powerful, petition Mike/John to ban it in PFS.

But as for this thread, here in the rules forum, I don't think the claim that "the effective level of the revelation-granted AniComp is somehow not a level-based effect of said revelation" is a legitimate interpretation at all.

"Applying the FCB to those revelations is too powerful" might have some legs to it. "The FCB doesn't affect those revelations" does not.

Normally I'd agree with you.

However look at metamagic feats, how they work and the various FAQs on them. Thevterm effect has a clear meaning and typically refers to range, damage, etc. It never changes the actual base assumption of the spell entirely.

Furthermore there are absolutely zero other favored class bonuses that have that wide ranging of an effect. They typically add to uses per day, damage/healing, and general effectiveness of an ability.

My point is, that the term effect only modified the abilities that have mechanical effects like range, damage dealt, times per day, etc.

To assume otherwise makes that particular favored class bonus so far better than any other, that it unbalances things.

Until clarified that I'm wrong, thus us how I'll be interpreting this.


+1 to "it absolutely works to increase effective level".

-TimD

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

Bbauzh ap Aghauzh wrote:
My point is, that the term effect only modified the abilities that have mechanical effects like range, damage dealt, times per day, etc.

So, the effective druid level has no mechanical effect? Then what's the point of that table?

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Yeah, I definitely think it increases the effective Druid level. The word "effect" has been thrown around before as having some type of specific definition, but it seems that consistently the word has been used for any number of things, and depends completely on who is writing. In this case, "any effect" means absolutely anything that is dependent on your Oracle level when it comes to that specific Revelation.

Liberty's Edge

So your position is that it was the designers intent that Elf and Aasimar oracles can make better druids or clerics than a druid or cleric? When no favored class bonus allows a druid to enhance their animal companion in such a way or a cleric to enhance channeling as such?

What I'm saying is, that class level is not something considered when the effects of something is modified.

Find one other instance in this game where this happens without explicitly saying such and I'll give you precedence. Otherwise you have to concede precedence to my interpretation.

Liberty's Edge

Put me in the camp of, "No, it does not allow for grossly overpowered ACs".

Honestly, when you see this particular combo used as a basis in some serious munchkin builds to achieve ridiculously overpowered companion creatures, that should make one realize that something probably is not right.

I am pretty sure that there is no intent anywhere to allow a companion creature to be a higher level than the player character. It is an accessory, not an additional PC in and of itself. In terms of balance I cannot see anyone supporting the idea of the mega powered AC option save for those wanting over powered options. And some of the arguments about what a character "gives up" to get this option are so laughably thin as to be transparent.

Dark Archive

My mind might be changed if there were a cleric favoured class bonus that advanced channelling, or a druid/cavalier favoured class bonus that advanced the animal companion.

I submit that the favoured class bonus either does not advance these abilities, or is not intended to advance these abilities. If it does truly do so, it's far more powerful than even the human favoured class bonus for oracles and sorcerers.

Dark Archive

it works


Bbauzh ap Aghauzh wrote:

So your position is that it was the designers intent that Elf and Aasimar oracles can make better druids or clerics than a druid or cleric? When no favored class bonus allows a druid to enhance their animal companion in such a way or a cleric to enhance channeling as such?

What I'm saying is, that class level is not something considered when the effects of something is modified.

Find one other instance in this game where this happens without explicitly saying such and I'll give you precedence. Otherwise you have to concede precedence to my interpretation.

It very explicitly increases the oracles effective level for the effects of the revelation.

What you do, is you treat the oracle as being higher level for determining the effect of the revelation. What is the effect of this revelation? It gives an animal companion like a druid's with a level equal to the oracle's. What is the oracle's level in regards to this ability? 1.5 times his actual level.

Very simple.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

An Oracle of Nature gets to choose what, a horse or camel as their Animal Companion? Whereas a Druid can select a pouncing Allosaurus or a constricting Snake?

My Druid currently has a Spinosaurus. I'll take that over a camel any day, even if the camel was 18th level when I was 12th.

It's fine the way it is. Don't nerf it.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

EDIT: Just to clarify, this was in response to Bbauzh ap Aghauzh, but I clicked in the box at the bottom instead of hitting "reply".

Just pointing out, not to start a fight, but I don't "have to" concede anything to your interpretation... currently it's your interpretation and that's all it is. :)

How about this quote by James Jacobs? What is an "effect"?

I would argue that the EFFECT that we're dealing with here is the effect of your Oracle level on the abilities and powers of your companion.

Lunar Mystery wrote:
Primal Companion (Ex): You gain the service of a faithful animal of the night. You can select from a bear, boar, crocodile, shark, tiger, or wolf. This animal functions as a druid's animal companion, using your oracle level as your effective druid level.
Favored class bonus option wrote:
Add+1/2 to the oracle's level for the purpose of determining the effects of one revelation.

Given that the revelation specifically says that the animal functions as an animal companion using your ORACLE LEVEL, and this is adding +1/2 bonus to your ORACLE LEVEL, I would argue that any level-dependent abilities of the companion are a direct EFFECT of your oracle level, and therefore this would absolutely affect the companion.

Also, I'd like to point out that we're dealing with the effective Druid level here. The English language sucks for being specific, but the word IS right there.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Nefreet wrote:

An Oracle of Nature gets to choose what, a horse or camel as their Animal Companion? Whereas a Druid can select a pouncing Allosaurus or a constricting Snake?

My Druid currently has a Spinosaurus. I'll take that over a camel any day, even if the camel was 18th level when I was 12th.

It's fine the way it is. Don't nerf it.

While I agree with you overall, I'd like to point out that the Lunar Oracle gets much more powerful options than a camel or horse: "bear, boar, crocodile, shark, tiger, or wolf". Tiger in particular can be extremely powerful if built right, thanks to pounce.

But either way, by the way the rules are written, I firmly believe that the increase to Oracle level definitely adds to the animal companion in either case.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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I'm seeing a lot of "there's no FCBs to let another class do X, therefore this FCB must not be intended to do so". Well if we're going to try to call on precedent like that, and if we're being honest, then we should look at all the types of things the aasimar oracle FCB can advance, and see if there are FCBs that advance that type of thing for other classes.

For any revelation for which we can't find an equivalent FCB for another class, we have to either (A) apply the same logic and rule that the aasimar oracle FCB doesn't work on that revelation either, or (B) abandon that logic (and subsequently examine what the remaining evidence dictates about how the FCB works).

So:
The flame oracle's Fire Breath would be advanced; is there an FCB out there that can advance a draconic sorcerer's breath weapon (or some other class's similar effect)? (See also the Heavens oracle's Interstellar Void or Spray of Shooting Stars, and others.)

The battle oracle's Maneuver Mastery would scale your BAB to 1.5xlvl for a selected maneuver (and also get the bonus feats earlier). Is there an FCB out there that, for a full-BAB class for example, can add half their level to CMB (not CMD, but CMB)for a selected maneuver?

The bones oracle's Raise the Dead will give you a critter with HD=level, which becomes 1.5xlevel. See anything similar for users of Command Undead or some such thing?

The lore oracle's Mental Acuity; anyone else getting inherent bonuses to stats through their FCBs?

An ancestor oracle's Spirit of the Warrior would suddenly give them BAB higher than their level for several rounds - and not just for one maneuver like the Maneuver Master thing. Again, anyone else boosting BAB through FCBs?

-------------------------------------

So either we say that the aasimar oracle's FCB doesn't apply to any of the above that don't have an equivalent in another class, or we abandon the "since you can't do this with a cleric/druid, it must not work here either" line of reasoning. There is no other honest option.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Jiggy wrote:

I'm seeing a lot of "there's no FCBs to let another class do X, therefore this FCB must not be intended to do so". Well if we're going to try to call on precedent like that, and if we're being honest, then we should look at all the types of things the aasimar oracle FCB can advance, and see if there are FCBs that advance that type of thing for other classes.

For any revelation for which we can't find an equivalent FCB for another class, we have to either (A) apply the same logic and rule that the aasimar oracle FCB doesn't work on that revelation either, or (B) abandon that logic (and subsequently examine what the remaining evidence dictates about how the FCB works).

So:
The flame oracle's Fire Breath would be advanced; is there an FCB out there that can advance a draconic sorcerer's breath weapon (or some other class's similar effect)? (See also the Heavens oracle's Interstellar Void or Spray of Shooting Stars, and others.)

The battle oracle's Maneuver Mastery would scale your BAB to 1.5xlvl for a selected maneuver (and also get the bonus feats earlier). Is there an FCB out there that, for a full-BAB class for example, can add half their level to CMB (not CMD, but CMB)for a selected maneuver?

The bones oracle's Raise the Dead will give you a critter with HD=level, which becomes 1.5xlevel. See anything similar for users of Command Undead or some such thing?

The lore oracle's Mental Acuity; anyone else getting inherent bonuses to stats through their FCBs?

An ancestor oracle's Spirit of the Warrior would suddenly give them BAB higher than their level for several rounds - and not just for one maneuver like the Maneuver Master thing. Again, anyone else boosting BAB through FCBs?

-------------------------------------

So either we say that the aasimar oracle's FCB doesn't apply to any of the above that don't have an equivalent in another class, or we abandon the "since you can't do this with a cleric/druid, it must not work here either" line of reasoning. There is no other...

Well put, Jiggy.

I would argue that all of the things that you listed there are valid uses of this favored class bonus, so the argument that there needs to be an equivalent FCB for the main class from which the ability came is invalid.


Bbauzh ap Aghauzh wrote:

So your position is that it was the designers intent that Elf and Aasimar oracles can make better druids or clerics than a druid or cleric? When no favored class bonus allows a druid to enhance their animal companion in such a way or a cleric to enhance channeling as such?

What I'm saying is, that class level is not something considered when the effects of something is modified.

Find one other instance in this game where this happens without explicitly saying such and I'll give you precedence. Otherwise you have to concede precedence to my interpretation.

You're missing the point in favor of the is-ought fallacy.

Ruleswise, it is true that it affects effective druid level.

What you're arguing is that it ought not to be true that it affects effective druid level. Your basis is perceived designer intent. You're arguing what RAW is based on what you believe RAI is.

I happen to agree that it is probably not intended that the FCB allows you to exceed your class level by that much when a cleric or druid (whichever applies) has no option to keep up. But that's about RAI, not RAW. RAW, it works.

Dark Archive

Alternatively, we push for a change to these favoured class bonuses. The power level from these compared with the others (dwarves gain weapon proficiencies, halflings and gnomes advance their curse a bit) is staggering.


An Oracle isn't a Cleric or a Druid and doesn't have the exact functionality of either. Why should the FCB be identical to other class FCBs? Are every race/class FCB identical?


Mergy wrote:
Alternatively, we push for a change to these favoured class bonuses. The power level from these compared with the others (dwarves gain weapon proficiencies, halflings and gnomes advance their curse a bit) is staggering.

It only affects one revelation. Staggering isn't the right word for the effect it has. It is very strong, certainly. And some revelation choices work better with this than others.

Liberty's Edge

So you are saying the intent is that an elf lunar oracle can be a better druid than a druid could ever dream to be?

Does that seem right or OK to you?


Jiggy wrote:
"Applying the FCB to those revelations is too powerful" might have some legs to it. "The FCB doesn't affect those revelations" does not.

On the nose. The designers may not have intended this specific interaction, but neither did they correct or restrict it.

It doesn't seem "right," but it certainly seems legal.

And yeah, with a tiger from new Lunar mystery, the benefits kick in even earlier. That large-size companion with 22 Strength, pounce, grab, rake, and three natural attacks is going to show up the AC of any 5th level druid.

Dark Archive

Remy Balster wrote:
An Oracle isn't a Cleric or a Druid and doesn't have the exact functionality of either. Why should the FCB be identical to other class FCBs? Are every race/class FCB identical?

Of course not. However, it's a fair assumption to make that one race's available options regarding favoured class bonus will be mostly in line with another race's. It's also a fair assumption that new content should have different but equal options available, rather than a constant upward climb in power.

Paizo typically releases archetypes that are slightly less powerful than core classes. I think it's unreasonable to assume that they intended for the lunar oracle to have a better tiger companion than a druid. I think it's unreasonable that Paizo intended for an oracle of life who picks one of three correct races (elf, half-elf, aasimar) to be a staggeringly better healer than an oracle of any other race, or even the cleric who had the ability already.


Bbauzh ap Aghauzh wrote:
So your position is that it was the designers intent that Elf and Aasimar oracles can make better druids or clerics than a druid or cleric?

One class feature being stronger doesn't make an Oracle better. Clerics get domain abilities that can be downright awesome, and get spells faster and can switch their spells up each day.

Druids may get an animal companion too, but they also get Wildshape, and spells faster that they can change.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Mergy wrote:
Alternatively, we push for a change to these favoured class bonuses. The power level from these compared with the others (dwarves gain weapon proficiencies, halflings and gnomes advance their curse a bit) is staggering.

I gotta say, in the process of typing up my last post, I became more and more convinced of two things:

1) Yes, the aasimar oracle FCB does apply to channel and AniComps, and
2) Holy balls, this FCB is probably the strongest out there, even if you don't pick either of those revelations. BAB +18/+13/+8/+3 at 12th level? Cripes.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Bbauzh ap Aghauzh wrote:

So you are saying the intent is that an elf lunar oracle can be a better druid than a druid could ever dream to be?

Does that seem right or OK to you?

What power level is "right or OK" is not relevant to whether or not that's how the ability currently works.

Liberty's Edge

blahpers wrote:
Bbauzh ap Aghauzh wrote:

So your position is that it was the designers intent that Elf and Aasimar oracles can make better druids or clerics than a druid or cleric? When no favored class bonus allows a druid to enhance their animal companion in such a way or a cleric to enhance channeling as such?

What I'm saying is, that class level is not something considered when the effects of something is modified.

Find one other instance in this game where this happens without explicitly saying such and I'll give you precedence. Otherwise you have to concede precedence to my interpretation.

You're missing the point in favor of the is-ought fallacy.

Ruleswise, it is true that it affects effective druid level.

What you're arguing is that it ought not to be true that it affects effective druid level. Your basis is perceived designer intent. You're arguing what RAW is based on what you believe RAI is.

I happen to agree that it is probably not intended that the FCB allows you to exceed your class level by that much when a cleric or druid (whichever applies) has no option to keep up. But that's about RAI, not RAW. RAW, it works.

I'm going to ignore your argument because you started with an assertion if logical fallacy. I think when discussing things that are often subjective and off the cuff that logical fallacy assertions have no place. We aren't in a debate club, a politician or lawyer where such an assertion may have bearing.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Bbauzh ap Aghauzh wrote:

So you are saying the intent is that an elf lunar oracle can be a better druid than a druid could ever dream to be?

Does that seem right or OK to you?

Having a more powerful animal companion does not make an elf lunar oracle a "better druid than a druid could ever dream to be". That's a ridiculous thing to say. The lunar oracle can't cast druid spells, can't prepare any spell on her spell list, can't make use of Wild Shape, can't use Trackless Step, etc. These are all things that a druid can do.

The animal companion class feature is just ONE class feature of a druid, and there are several other classes that can get full-progression animal companions at this point anyway (Sylvan Sorcerer or Ranger plus the Boon Companion feat, for example. Hell, look at the Summoner!).

You're really making it sound like the only thing that makes a Druid a Druid is having an animal companion. That's fallacious. Is this a powerful option for a Lunar Oracle? Absolutely. But it's a valid option.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Bbauzh ap Aghauzh wrote:
blahpers wrote:
Bbauzh ap Aghauzh wrote:

So your position is that it was the designers intent that Elf and Aasimar oracles can make better druids or clerics than a druid or cleric? When no favored class bonus allows a druid to enhance their animal companion in such a way or a cleric to enhance channeling as such?

What I'm saying is, that class level is not something considered when the effects of something is modified.

Find one other instance in this game where this happens without explicitly saying such and I'll give you precedence. Otherwise you have to concede precedence to my interpretation.

You're missing the point in favor of the is-ought fallacy.

Ruleswise, it is true that it affects effective druid level.

What you're arguing is that it ought not to be true that it affects effective druid level. Your basis is perceived designer intent. You're arguing what RAW is based on what you believe RAI is.

I happen to agree that it is probably not intended that the FCB allows you to exceed your class level by that much when a cleric or druid (whichever applies) has no option to keep up. But that's about RAI, not RAW. RAW, it works.

I'm going to ignore your argument because you started with an assertion if logical fallacy. I think when discussing things that are often subjective and off the cuff that logical fallacy assertions have no place. We aren't in a debate club, a politician or lawyer where such an assertion may have bearing.

I'd like to point out that just two or three posts up you told me that "Otherwise you have to concede precedence to my interpretation". That was you trying to use (flawed) logic to tell me that I was required to concede my point. Don't complain about someone else trying to do the same thing. That's hypocritical. If you think these interpretations are "subjective and off the cuff" then why are you even part of the discussion? You should just play the way you want. Those of us who want to know what the CORRECT interpretation for the rules is, for reasons such as PFS play, for example, do not consider these things to be "subjective" OR "off the cuff".

Liberty's Edge

Jiggy wrote:
Bbauzh ap Aghauzh wrote:

So you are saying the intent is that an elf lunar oracle can be a better druid than a druid could ever dream to be?

Does that seem right or OK to you?

What power level is "right or OK" is not relevant to whether or not that's how the ability currently works.

Sure it is. SKR has even said on occasion when discussing rules stuff, that if it seems too good to be true it likely is.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Bbauzh ap Aghauzh wrote:
I'm going to ignore your argument because you started with an assertion if logical fallacy. I think when discussing things that are often subjective and off the cuff that logical fallacy assertions have no place.

This is the rules forum. What's being discussed is not subjective or "off the cuff", and in fact should be approached logically.

Subjective assertions of whether a given power level is acceptable are not appropriate to this section of the boards, while logical arguments are entirely appropriate; not the other way around, as you assert.

If you want to make a case about the acceptability of the power level of this FCB, a thread to petition its banning in the PFS sections would probably be a good idea.

Dark Archive

Jiggy wrote:
Mergy wrote:
Alternatively, we push for a change to these favoured class bonuses. The power level from these compared with the others (dwarves gain weapon proficiencies, halflings and gnomes advance their curse a bit) is staggering.

I gotta say, in the process of typing up my last post, I became more and more convinced of two things:

1) Yes, the aasimar oracle FCB does apply to channel and AniComps, and
2) Holy balls, this FCB is probably the strongest out there, even if you don't pick either of those revelations. BAB +18/+13/+8/+3 at 12th level? Cripes.

I will say that animal companions do likely advance with this FCB by RAW. I came into this thread trying to see if it was intended in that fashion. I still don't think it is, incidentally.

I hadn't picked up on these other overpowered options either. Manoeuvre Master for sunder is another shade of ridiculous.


Bbauzh ap Aghauzh wrote:
blahpers wrote:
Bbauzh ap Aghauzh wrote:

So your position is that it was the designers intent that Elf and Aasimar oracles can make better druids or clerics than a druid or cleric? When no favored class bonus allows a druid to enhance their animal companion in such a way or a cleric to enhance channeling as such?

What I'm saying is, that class level is not something considered when the effects of something is modified.

Find one other instance in this game where this happens without explicitly saying such and I'll give you precedence. Otherwise you have to concede precedence to my interpretation.

You're missing the point in favor of the is-ought fallacy.

Ruleswise, it is true that it affects effective druid level.

What you're arguing is that it ought not to be true that it affects effective druid level. Your basis is perceived designer intent. You're arguing what RAW is based on what you believe RAI is.

I happen to agree that it is probably not intended that the FCB allows you to exceed your class level by that much when a cleric or druid (whichever applies) has no option to keep up. But that's about RAI, not RAW. RAW, it works.

I'm going to ignore your argument because you started with an assertion if logical fallacy. I think when discussing things that are often subjective and off the cuff that logical fallacy assertions have no place. We aren't in a debate club, a politician or lawyer where such an assertion may have bearing.

You don't need to be following Robert's Rules of Order to commit a fallacy. It can happen in entirely mundane circumstances, over entirely mundane issues.

Blahpers is entirely correct. To reiterate, you're arguing about how things should be, whereas the point of this thread is to discuss how they are. This forum is for description, not prescription. If you want to propose a change, then that's for Suggestions/House Rules/Homebrew.

Liberty's Edge

cartmanbeck wrote:
Bbauzh ap Aghauzh wrote:
blahpers wrote:
Bbauzh ap Aghauzh wrote:

So your position is that it was the designers intent that Elf and Aasimar oracles can make better druids or clerics than a druid or cleric? When no favored class bonus allows a druid to enhance their animal companion in such a way or a cleric to enhance channeling as such?

What I'm saying is, that class level is not something considered when the effects of something is modified.

Find one other instance in this game where this happens without explicitly saying such and I'll give you precedence. Otherwise you have to concede precedence to my interpretation.

You're missing the point in favor of the is-ought fallacy.

Ruleswise, it is true that it affects effective druid level.

What you're arguing is that it ought not to be true that it affects effective druid level. Your basis is perceived designer intent. You're arguing what RAW is based on what you believe RAI is.

I happen to agree that it is probably not intended that the FCB allows you to exceed your class level by that much when a cleric or druid (whichever applies) has no option to keep up. But that's about RAI, not RAW. RAW, it works.

I'm going to ignore your argument because you started with an assertion if logical fallacy. I think when discussing things that are often subjective and off the cuff that logical fallacy assertions have no place. We aren't in a debate club, a politician or lawyer where such an assertion may have bearing.
I'd like to point out that just two or three posts up you told me that "Otherwise you have to concede precedence to my interpretation". That was you trying to use (flawed) logic to tell me that I was required to concede my point. Don't complain about someone else trying to do the same thing. That's hypocritical. If you think these interpretations are "subjective and off the cuff" then why are you even part of the discussion? You should just play the way you want. Those of us who want...

If you disagree with me, that's fine. Say so. Use language and define it. If you think my logic is faulty, say so and define why.

My issue is with the specific logical fallacy terms which have become incredibly overused, misused and misunderstood. The assertion rather than discussion does nothing to add to the discussion and indeed detracts from it. You put the person you are asserting made the fallacy on the defensive. The assertions have become, aside from intent, an insult on that persons character and intelligence. They have no place on these boards.

Tell me why you think my logic is faulty. I may disagree, but I will listen and consider. Tell me I'm a straw man or slippery slope or any other if a plethora of logical fallacy assertions and I now don't care what you have to say.

Liberty's Edge

Jiggy wrote:
Bbauzh ap Aghauzh wrote:
I'm going to ignore your argument because you started with an assertion if logical fallacy. I think when discussing things that are often subjective and off the cuff that logical fallacy assertions have no place.

This is the rules forum. What's being discussed is not subjective or "off the cuff", and in fact should be approached logically.

Subjective assertions of whether a given power level is acceptable are not appropriate to this section of the boards, while logical arguments are entirely appropriate; not the other way around, as you assert.

If you want to make a case about the acceptability of the power level of this FCB, a thread to petition its banning in the PFS sections would probably be a good idea.

I disagree. Nobody who posts to this forum spends days researching the topic of debate. As such advanced debate techniques such as assertions of logical fallacy have no place here.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

1 person marked this as a favorite.

To be fair, the guy who told you that you were making the is-ought fallacy did explain, rather than simply yelling "FALLACY!" at you. (I'm similarly irritated at the fallacy crap on these forums, but in this case he at least talked about it clearly instead of just throwing it at you.)

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

I think I'm going to have to stop reading this thread now because the OP seems to be ignoring the rational arguments that the rest of us are making, instead now arguing about the way in which arguments are being made. That's too meta for me, guys. KTHXBAI.

Dark Archive

Um... Can we go back to talking about favoured class bonuses instead of just dogpiling on the OP? :)

It seems there are a few options:

1) It works and it's fine.
2) It works and it's too powerful.
3) It works and it's too weak.
4) It doesn't work and that's fine.
5) It doesn't work and it should.

I'm hovering around 2) right now. Any thoughts?

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