Does Elf or Aasimar favored class Oracle bonus affect the Animal Companion revelations?


Rules Questions

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blackbloodtroll wrote:
John Smith's totally awesome horse!

Is it made of diamond? A diamond pony? What shall we name it...

Grand Lodge

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Xaratherus wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
John Smith's totally awesome horse!
Is it made of diamond? A diamond pony? What shall we name it...

Hansel. He is so hot right now.

Hansel.


Jiggy wrote:
Bbauzh ap Aghauzh wrote:
I'm going to ignore your argument because you started with an assertion if logical fallacy. I think when discussing things that are often subjective and off the cuff that logical fallacy assertions have no place.

This is the rules forum. What's being discussed is not subjective or "off the cuff", and in fact should be approached logically.

Subjective assertions of whether a given power level is acceptable are not appropriate to this section of the boards, while logical arguments are entirely appropriate; not the other way around, as you assert

Nowhere in the rules forun description is it stated that RAW reigns supreme here. Discussing probable intent and holding RAI higher than RAW is in no way in conflict with this forums stated topic.

Whether it is against the intended topic is another thing, but it would be oh so ironic to argue that...


The favored class bonus works but its not going to stack with boon companion after the critters effective level comes even with your level.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
BigNorseWolf wrote:
The favored class bonus works but its not going to stack with boon companion.

Well, if you had two levels in Oracle, then five classes in something else, you could have a seventh level companion, with Boon Companion.

If you had, say, two levels in Oracle, and three levels in something else, then you would not have a seventh level companion, but a fifth level companion.


There's no real point in nerfing this one favored class bonus unless you are going to nerf a dozen other powerful favored class bonuses that are available to other races.... and it would all end with everyone reverting back to having to choose between an extra hit point or an extra skill point.


I see several FC bonuses that are about on Par with this one. I'll only name a few since the point has been hammered into the ground:

1) Several extra arcana ones.
2) Extra Evolutions.
3) Dwarves can reduce misfire with firearms to 0 (on a musket thats a +3 weapon enhancement).
4) Tiefling Paladin: When healing self with LOH's heal one extra point. Pretty much no way you can argue thats worth the +1 HP several times over.
5) Alchemists +1/2 damage on bombs - it includes the splash damage, it adds up pretty fast.

It is certainly RAW that it works, and is probably RAI. It is one of the more powerful FC abilities, I'll grant that, but its not out of whack with some of the other more powerful ones.


Bbauzh ap Aghauzh wrote:
Tim can you explain your opinion that having an animal companion at +50% your level isn't overpowered? Consider that by 20th level it would be a 30th level animal companion.

An animal companion is only one aspect of a character's class & advancement.

As mentioned above, the chart only goes to 20, so the ability pretty much caps at 12th. In addition, assuming you decide to go beyond 20 on the chart, when I'm running a game at 20th level the animal companion is generally much less effective than at lower level for the PCs as it doesn't get its own WBL to play with.
Frankly, a 30th level deadly performance for 20th level bard or +20hp for each laying on hands for a tiefling paladin is probably a lot more troublesome at 20th level play.
On the other hand, my play experiences, especially at levels 15+ seem to vary wildly from what I read about on these boards, so as always YMMV.

-TimD


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Karui Kage wrote:
Zahmahkibo wrote:


Not to discourage any PDF purchasing, but for the purpose of discussion, the Lunar mystery is up on Archives of Nethys. And it is legal for PFS, despite what the site says.
Thanks for mentioning this! I don't have an easy way of telling when Additional Resources makes an update (unless there's some button to send me an email whenever they make a change that I'm missing), and none of the new books were up when I first added them. Making all the Blood of the Moon legality changes now. :)

Sure, and thanks for maintaining a useful community resource.

Matrix Dragon wrote:
There's no real point in nerfing this one favored class bonus unless you are going to nerf a dozen other powerful favored class bonuses that are available to other races.... and it would all end with everyone reverting back to having to choose between an extra hit point or an extra skill point.

I can't speak for everyone in the 2) camp, but I don't see those as equivalent. Yes, many FCBs are quite powerful, but even the most egregious offenses are largely contained to race balance.

If, thanks to their FCB, a tiefling paladin is much more durable than an elf paladin, or a half-orc alchemist is a much better bomber than a gnome alchemist, that's acceptable if not ideal. Certain races being particularly suited to certain roles is an ancient hallmark of d20 systems.

Sometimes these advantages are great enough to affect class balance. Thanks to his extra spells known per level, a human sorcerer might further eclipse a human barbarian in the mid to high levels. That's unfortunate, but still acceptable.

But there's a concept much important than class balance, a concept that this FCB combo flagrantly disregards: class identity. The barbarian is content with not being the superstar in most situations, as long as he's still the best at barbarian-y things. He's still okay if the rogue might be a bit better at dishing melee damage, since each of those classes are supposed to have their own methods of filling that role. But when the rogue starts raging with more rounds per day and better bonuses, then the barbarian gets sad, even if he's still stronger than the rogue in other areas.

If the elf and aasimar FCB were only for druids (or rangers, or cavaliers, or paladins), I wouldn't have a problem with it. But as it is, it allows the oracle to surpass the druid, etc., not in some shared class feature like divine spellcasting, but in a quintessential druid area, which the oracle only dips into as an afterthought.

It wasn't enough for the oracle to build her mansion right across the street, she had to make it look just like the druid's house but with a bigger garage, a swimming pool, and a helicopter pad.


Zahmahkibo wrote:
Karui Kage wrote:
Zahmahkibo wrote:


Not to discourage any PDF purchasing, but for the purpose of discussion, the Lunar mystery is up on Archives of Nethys. And it is legal for PFS, despite what the site says.
Thanks for mentioning this! I don't have an easy way of telling when Additional Resources makes an update (unless there's some button to send me an email whenever they make a change that I'm missing), and none of the new books were up when I first added them. Making all the Blood of the Moon legality changes now. :)

Sure, and thanks for maintaining a useful community resource.

Matrix Dragon wrote:
There's no real point in nerfing this one favored class bonus unless you are going to nerf a dozen other powerful favored class bonuses that are available to other races.... and it would all end with everyone reverting back to having to choose between an extra hit point or an extra skill point.

I can't speak for everyone in the 2) camp, but I don't see those as equivalent. Yes, many FCBs are quite powerful, but even the most egregious offenses are largely contained to race balance.

If, thanks to their FCB, a tiefling paladin is much more durable than an elf paladin, or a half-orc alchemist is a much better bomber than a gnome alchemist, that's acceptable if not ideal. Certain races being particularly suited to certain roles is an ancient hallmark of d20 systems.

Sometimes these advantages are great enough to affect class balance. Thanks to his extra spells known per level, a human sorcerer might further eclipse a human barbarian in the mid to high levels. That's unfortunate, but still acceptable.

But there's a concept much important than class balance, a concept that this FCB combo flagrantly disregards: class identity. The barbarian is content with not being the superstar in most situations, as long as he's still the best at barbarian-y things. He's still okay if the rogue might be a bit better at dishing melee damage, since each of those classes are...

Amazing post. I agree wholeheartedly. This is the reason the Rogue is one of the worst classes in the game. It's class identity has been robbed of it by other classes. Other folks can sneak, find, and disable traps better. Magic Traps were pretty much never able to be disabled by rogues anyways with the DCs so high.

My biggest problem with this is granting the FCB to a race. That instantly hamstrings people into playing a race because they want to be powerful characters. Why not just have some FCB hardwired into the class?

Its another reason so many people are playing Aasimars in PFS.

PS. To those who took up my challenge, thanks for proving that only extremely high tier damage dealers can compete. That oracle spent their FCB and one revelation to put out that much damage. Those entire characters are built around their damage. The Oracle themselves can grab a feat and get the Celestial Template and smites for their AC as well.


Bbauzh ap Aghauzh wrote:


I disagree. Nobody who posts to this forum spends days researching the topic of debate. As such advanced debate techniques such as assertions of logical fallacy have no place here.

This is in no way an "advanced" technique. It's a convenient shorthand. We can walk through the entire argument from basic principles to "that something seems unintended does not mean it is not what happened". Or we can just say "is/ought fallacy", and people who aren't sure how that applies can take thirty seconds to look it up.

And yes, some of us do spend days researching the topic of debate.

To get back on topic:

That a rule may seem to produce undesired results, or excessive results, doesn't mean it's not the rule. It may mean it's a bad rule, or that it would be very reasonable for a GM to house-rule it, or to say that the general rules about fixing obvious glitches apply. But it's not evidence that it's not what the rules said.

And we've frequently seen Paizo staff come in and say "yes, you're right, that's very powerful. Good choice."

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

So, you came here, with the intent to debate?


I don't think level-based benefits are an effect. Those are, as the druid class states, "statistics and abilities." That is not to say I don't think this is a poorly considered benefit that can probably be abused with one or more other revelations, but I don't think it works with this one.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
So, you came here, with the intent to debate?

I came here with intent to learn more about the rules. I didn't study debate specifically for this forum, I study it in general because knowing how argumentation and persuasion work is really useful. But I do think it's an important thing to know, and especially so if you want to try to resolve disagreements about the rules.

Being able to recognize logically valid arguments, and also invalid arguments, is super useful.


RJGrady wrote:
I don't think level-based benefits are an effect. Those are, as the druid class states, "statistics and abilities." That is not to say I don't think this is a poorly considered benefit that can probably be abused with one or more other revelations, but I don't think it works with this one.

I think that's a pretty strict reading of the word "effects". "effects" isn't a defined game term, and I don't think it's wrong to interpret "...for the purpose of determining the effects of one revelation." as "...for the purpose of determining the benefits of one revelation." Though I'll agree that from how the word "effects" is defined contextually throughout other texts, the writer might have shared your interpretation that "effects" would not extend to something like bonded mount. I doubt it, but I could see that interpretation being used in an FAQ reply.

Another way to look at it is that the "effects" of the bonded mount revelation are that it grants you an animal companion. For the purpose of that effect, add +1/2 to your Oracle level.

Off-Topic:
Zahmahkibo wrote:
If, thanks to their FCB, a tiefling paladin is much more durable than an elf paladin, or a half-orc alchemist is a much better bomber than a gnome alchemist, that's acceptable if not ideal. Certain races being particularly suited to certain roles is an ancient hallmark of d20 systems.

Yeah, I don't think that's ideal either. When I started Pathfinder, it was before the release of ARG and before I combed the races books. I was relieved that my choice of race was mostly thematic, as it had a relatively minimal impact on my build. Now we're back to the situation of 3.0/3.5. You can decide not to play an Aasimar with your Nature Oracle, but if you wanted to focus on an animal companion, it's conflicting to have such a strong mechanical incentive for a choice which (in my opinion) should be largely thematic. Every time your animal companion gets knocked out or barely damages the enemy, you'll think "I could have had a tiger right now..."


Placing this here for future searchers.


I really don't think you needed to post on a necro thread as the errata for ARG kind of makes John's post irrelevant.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

The ARG was also errata'd recently. Those FCBs are now only +1/6, not +1/2, so it's no longer possible to have such a high level Companion.

Edit: Ha! And ninja'd by 14 seconds.


Nefreet wrote:

The ARG was also errata'd recently. Those FCBs are now only +1/6, not +1/2, so it's no longer possible to have such a high level Companion.

Edit: Ha! And ninja'd by 14 seconds.

Level 7 cleric with Animal Domain, Boon Companion, Huntmaster: Human has a 10th level animal companion.

:D

So any race that can take Huntmaster can do this.

WAY better than Aasimar with an animal companion.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Reread Boon Companion.

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