Last night a sleeping/helpless pc was dragged 5 ft from a 160 foot ledge. The sleeping pc was given a chance with his cmd and failed by over 18. The big bad guy grapped the prone pc and dragged him 5ft and dropped with him 150 feet than let him go and cast feather fall as an immediate action. The party at first protested the mechanics of the drag, then protested that they would have at least 3 rounds to save him or at least kill the bad guy with distance attacks. My ruling was that the two of them could drop at least 500 feet in free fall, and since there is no way for the party to stop this from happening it just is arguing the inevitable. Casting feather fall is an immediate action that can be done anytime during the round of combat. The sleeping pc was prone and on the ledge for 2 rounds and no one in the party tried to wake him up. After being pelted with distance attacks and losing 50% of her hitpoints, the bad guy decided to escape and take one of the pcs with her. The bad guy has an int of 16 and is CE alignment.
this seems like a party/game breaker. the game stopped and 2 players,not the dead one, stormed out and said they would not play anymore. I allow all the resources to bring pcs back from death and before this encounter gave ample info on the dangers of this boss fight. If we can get past this the party has a reoccurring bad guy that adds flavor and purpose in future game sessions.
do you think RAW rules were done wrong?
7 man party against one cr 9 bad guy.
last fight at end of Rise of the Runelord (skinsaw murders)
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Honestly it sounds like you have more problems than the rules.
Rules wise you seem to be on solid footing, although I'm posting off memory and haven't looked up the rules.
If there is something in the game that has everyone upset already, then little things like this tend to get amplified.
On the other hand, getting upset because a character was killed by a big bad really isn't very mature either.
I'd have a long talk with everyone, outside of game, maybe at a Denny's or something, over food, and ask if everyone is having fun. If they are but simply don't want to ever die, then I'd re-examine if you want to run a game for them. If they are unhappy about other things, and this was just a trigger event, then find out what they are unhappy about and see if you can work it out.
I think I would have done the same thing given the opportunity, for without death, where is the challenge?
As you have said, you support in game resurrections and so on, so it isn't the end for the PC really and is a good wake up call to the players that this isn't a nicey, nicey world where bad guys pull back from doing the bad things.
From your description, I would have allowed the PC a perception check, with penalties for being asleep being applied, to notice the drag and potentially wake up - but if they had failed that, then to be frank, I would have jsut dropped him over the edge and tried to do more damage to the party if I thought I had a round or two of health remaining before jumping myself.
So, I think you are ok, but I am sure others might disagree. The only possible misstep I can see is not allowing the dragged character to notice they are being dragged.
If they were levitated and pushed, that's another matter as it might be gentle enough to not be noticed. But being dragged across the floor, you have to have a wake up roll for that, I think.
Also, while grabbed, if that woke the PC, they can have an initiative and fight back. As the grabbed PC, falling down before the boss lets go, I would be holding on back like a rabid dog, take the sucker with me sort of thing.
Ehm... And what the dead player said?
Anyway, I'd go light with this things. You basically made a coup de grace as standard action without provoking aoo. Yeah, he didn't get the save vs damage, but damage per se was enough to kill him. This could be perceived as unfair. Like other "shutdown encounter" options, that was a pretty hard one. But I wonder if you was clear at the campaign start, about those situations.
you are saying, 'grapped'. Was the PC grappled? dragged? repositioned?
(Arguably any of those would wake up the sleeping PC.)
That's what I was going to ask. Why was the PC still asleep if s/he was grabbed, dragged, and then stood over for 5-10 seconds while somebody was getting their HP drained by ranged weapons?
It's not guaranteed, but it seems pretty reasonable that the PC would have woken up under those circumstances. Is there any particular reason s/he didn't?
one of the very upset pcs is our former GM. He has been a constant problem to play with. His childish and jerky attitude aside, I still want to make sure that the rules were applied correctly. The other players have very sore feelings from his games when rules were not followed correctly (on both sides) and resulted in disaster. The mechanics and tactics seem right...... The helpless feeling the other pcs have is unfortunate, but that's just how it is. The former gm wanted to have 3 full round actions (Ranger) before they hit the ground...no He then wanted his animal companion to jump off ledge and somehow catch-up with the falling badguy and perform some weird Gandalf vs. Balrog falling fight....no
Ehm... And what the dead player said?
Anyway, I'd go light with this things. You basically made a coup de grace as standard action without provoking aoo. Yeah, he didn't get the save vs damage, but damage per se was enough to kill him. This could be perceived as unfair. Like other "shutdown encounter" options, that was a pretty hard one. But I wonder if you was clear at the campaign start, about those situations.
Reread.
The PC was sleeping/helpless. A reposition attack is pretty much automatic. In other words, he threw him over the edge and then dropped off himself with a 5 ft step. All perfectly legal. And the PC did get woken up and get a CMB/CMD check to break the grapple before he got tossed over, and failed it by 18.
you are saying, 'grapped'. Was the PC grappled? dragged? repositioned?
(Arguably any of those would wake up the sleeping PC.)
That's what I was going to ask. Why was the PC still asleep if s/he was grabbed, dragged, and then stood over for 5-10 seconds while somebody was getting their HP drained by ranged weapons?
It's not guaranteed, but it seems pretty reasonable that the PC would have woken up under those circumstances. Is there any particular reason s/he didn't?
Standard Action : Reposition Helpless Opponent 5 ft (pretty much a given)
Move action : Fall off cliff after Helpless OpponentIt only requires a CMB/CMD check to reposition the sleeping character 5 ft. THey were sleeping 5 ft from the edge of a cliff...
Perfectly legal.
EDIT : Whoops, Reposition doesn't work, but Grapple rules do.
Standard Action : Grapple helpless opponent.
Move Action : Move both off Cliff (Grapled PC get's to break free, but failed by 18).
Move: You can move both yourself and your target up to half your speed. At the end of your movement, you can place your target in any square adjacent to you. If you attempt to place your foe in a hazardous location, such as in a wall of fire or over a pit, the target receives a free attempt to break your grapple with a +4 bonus.
you are saying, 'grapped'. Was the PC grappled? dragged? repositioned?
(Arguably any of those would wake up the sleeping PC.)
rule wise...possible
but that would only give the sleeping /helpless pc back his dex bonus to his cmd. the check made was over 18 points OVER his cmd. Every pc next to the drag action got attacks of opp. free attacks YEAHHHHH no one tried to wake him up, no one tried to hold him on the ledge and tug of war him back into safety
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Honestly, I am not sure if rules were wrong from a first glance, but what did feel wrong were players storming out and saying they refuse to play anymore. That's typical childish behavior. Your players should know better that this. It's an insult to a GM and friend to do this, unless the person is obvious jerk, and I wouldn't know why you would play with him in the first place.
Regarding rules:
Mechanics of Drag - I believe an NPC could grab and move 5 feet + additional 5 feet for every 5 which he passes the PC's CMD (which shouldn't be hard)
Free fall - Is 500 ft./round I believe, so it basically happens instantly in a round. If the building or small mountain is 1500 feet high, then the fall might last 3 rounds before PC hits the ground.
Comments:
What you did was fairly possible, but you have to ask yourself sometimes if it's really needed. I try to give subtle or obvious hints to players often a round before if NPC/monster is in a process of doing something devious or hazardous to anyone such as dog aiming for an unconscious PC's throat. Players tend to be unhappy if they didn't get a chance to actually do something or didn't receive any kind of warning. Did you give them a hint of at least what is about to happen?
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So: BBEG and helpless PC, standing on a 5ft cliff ledge, adjacent to each other. What can the BBEG do to drop the character off the cliff?
- Drag wouldn't work, because the BBEG can pull the PC behind them but is not holding them as such.
The aim of this maneuver is to drag a foe in a straight line behind you without doing any harm.
BBEG walks 5 ft off the cliff, and the PC stays at the ledge.
- The BBEG could not Reposition the character into a hazardous location, such as over a pit, as per RAW.
You cannot use this maneuver to move a foe into a space that is intrinsically dangerous, such as a pit or wall of fire.
- If this was grappling:
* On the first round, both characters gain the grappled condition, which means they cannot move. Hopefully the PCs would have figured out what might be happening then.* On the second round, the BBEG can now use a standard action to maintain the grapple, and then if successful, can move both himself and the PC off the cliff. If this movement is over a hazardous location, the PC immediately gets a free attempt to break the grapple with a +4 bonus.
For all of these:
Slapping or wounding awakens an affected creature, but normal noise does not.
Though the RAW is not explicit, RAI would make me think that any aggressive action towards a character, such as dragging them around, would wake them up.
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My question is, if the PC was awake, why didn't he have a chance for an action. He probably should have also had a chance for a Reflex save to grab the edge when pulled over. He was being dragged, not grappled, so there should have been no reason he shouldn't have had a chance to save himself.
Whether or not the player was being a pain, you sound like you still want to be fair, in regards to the rules.
Reflex saves are often given as a reactive defense when they are not able to act (because it is not their turn.) That's what I would have done. Did he legitimately sneak up without waking anyone? Was there no one on watch? Were they expecting an attack? There are many factors that come in to play here.
*sigh*
Ok, to reiterate :
PC Is asleep (Helpless)
Standard Action : Grapple helpless opponent (Wakes him up). Beats CMD by 18.
Move Action : While grappled, walk off cliff edge (up to 15 ft of movement).
PC get's to try to break free (+4 CMB vs CMD). If failed, PC falls 160ft.
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seems legit, if a bit ruthless. There is a reason why my casters ALWAYS know featherfall...but yea, I dont think the problem is with your actions, its with the group dynamic as a whole. It seems like the former dm is still in dm mode and wants the game to be run 'his way' instead of your way.
You fall 500ft in a round. he doesnt get 3 actions, he doesnt even get 1. Reposition off cliff, splat. Thats it. Imediate actions only.
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- If this was grappling:
* On the first round, both characters gain the grappled condition, which means they cannot move. Hopefully the PCs would have figured out what might be happening then.
* On the second round, the BBEG can now use a standard action to maintain the grapple, and then if successful, can move both himself and the PC off the cliff. If this movement is over a hazardous location, the PC immediately gets a free attempt to break the grapple with a +4 bonus.
Wrong.
You are close though. Nothing says that you can't take your move action after your grapple action. Grapple is a standard action. Then take move action to move off cliff. One round, not two.
Ehm... And what the dead player said?
Anyway, I'd go light with this things. You basically made a coup de grace as standard action without provoking aoo. Yeah, he didn't get the save vs damage, but damage per se was enough to kill him. This could be perceived as unfair. Like other "shutdown encounter" options, that was a pretty hard one. But I wonder if you was clear at the campaign start, about those situations.
I agree that the fall damage is crazy. the bulrush/ drag tactic was going to be used if one of the pcs were on the ledge AND sleeping or paralyzed. It's a tough thing to happen...it sucks .The party was aware of others being pushed from this tower. flesh to stone broken statues littered the base of the tower as they walked in. The pc who died is sad but doesn't think he was singled out(front line fighter), and doesn't think the rules were applied wrong. Two other pcs ( 1 former gm) went ballistic. Screaming, ranting, swearing....it was unfortunate. Even after the death was accepted, he was screaming that he could have killed her while she dropped.....
seems legit, if a bit ruthless. There is a reason why my casters ALWAYS know featherfall...but yea, I dont think the problem is with your actions, its with the group dynamic as a whole. It seems like the former dm is still in dm mode and wants the game to be run 'his way' instead of your way.
You fall 500ft in a round. he doesnt get 3 actions, he doesnt even get 1. Reposition off cliff, splat. Thats it. Imediate actions only.
Has to be grapple. Reposition specifically forbids moving them to a dangerous square.
But yeah, it works.
you are saying, 'grapped'. Was the PC grappled? dragged? repositioned?
(Arguably any of those would wake up the sleeping PC.)
That's what I was going to ask. Why was the PC still asleep if s/he was grabbed, dragged, and then stood over for 5-10 seconds while somebody was getting their HP drained by ranged weapons?
It's not guaranteed, but it seems pretty reasonable that the PC would have woken up under those circumstances. Is there any particular reason s/he didn't?
the pc was 5 ft from the drop.....prone
he was not dragged 50 ft thru a battlefield|
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Standard Action : Grapple helpless opponent (Wakes him up). Beats CMD by 18.
Move Action : While grappled, walk off cliff edge (up to 15 ft of movement).
You cannot move if you are grappled, according to RAW:
If successful, both you and the target gain the grappled condition.
Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity.
This would take two rounds: 1st round the BBEG initiates the grapple, waking the PC. 2nd round the BBEG maintains the grapple, and then move as part of one of the actions you can perform with a successful maintain of a grapple.
I agree that the fall damage is crazy. the bulrush/ drag tactic was going to be used if one of the pcs were on the ledge AND sleeping or paralyzed. It's a tough thing to happen...it sucks .The party was aware of others being pushed from this tower. flesh to stone broken statues littered the base of the tower as they walked in. The pc who died is sad but doesn't think he was singled out(front line fighter), and doesn't think the rules were applied wrong. Two other pcs ( 1 former gm) went ballistic. Screaming, ranting, swearing....it was unfortunate. Even after the death was accepted, he was screaming that he could have killed her while she dropped.....Ehm... And what the dead player said?
Anyway, I'd go light with this things. You basically made a coup de grace as standard action without provoking aoo. Yeah, he didn't get the save vs damage, but damage per se was enough to kill him. This could be perceived as unfair. Like other "shutdown encounter" options, that was a pretty hard one. But I wonder if you was clear at the campaign start, about those situations.
You don't have a rules problem.
You have a player problem. This is only one sided, so all commentary is biased. But if your comments are close to what happened, I'd say the former GM is jealous. I'd hazard a guess that the other player was the former GM's favorite/crony?
you are saying, 'grapped'. Was the PC grappled? dragged? repositioned?
(Arguably any of those would wake up the sleeping PC.)
That's what I was going to ask. Why was the PC still asleep if s/he was grabbed, dragged, and then stood over for 5-10 seconds while somebody was getting their HP drained by ranged weapons?
It's not guaranteed, but it seems pretty reasonable that the PC would have woken up under those circumstances. Is there any particular reason s/he didn't?
Standard Action : Reposition Helpless Opponent 5 ft (pretty much a given)
Move action : Fall off cliff after Helpless OpponentIt only requires a CMB/CMD check to reposition the sleeping character 5 ft. THey were sleeping 5 ft from the edge of a cliff...
Perfectly legal.
EDIT : Whoops, Reposition doesn't work, but Grapple rules do.
Standard Action : Grapple helpless opponent.
Move Action : Move both off Cliff (Grapled PC get's to break free, but failed by 18).
Move: You can move both yourself and your target up to half your speed. At the end of your movement, you can place your target in any square adjacent to you. If you attempt to place your foe in a hazardous location, such as in a wall of fire or over a pit, the target receives a free attempt to break your grapple with a +4 bonus.
I think I misread. I thought the 3 rounds occurred before they went over the edge. Apparently, the player wanted 3 rounds to act while in the air.
So yeah, makes sense now. And no, I wouldn't give 3 rounds of actions in the air. They fall much faster than that.
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The character would fall the full 150 feet in one round. Fall speed is 500 feet for the first round, and 1200 feet every round thereafter. So at best they'd have one round to act - and probably not that, since it most likely was a surprise round.
The only thing that I might ask is this: Did you roll damage for the fall?
Falling only deals 1d6 damage per 10 feet fallen. The character can make a DC 15 Acrobatics check to ignore damage for the first 10 feet, and convert the second 10 feet to nonlethal damage. That would possibly be 1d6 nonlethal damage and 13d6 lethal - with the (slim) possibility that the character only took 13 damage (if you rolled really, really bad).
Standard Action : Grapple helpless opponent (Wakes him up). Beats CMD by 18.
Move Action : While grappled, walk off cliff edge (up to 15 ft of movement).You cannot move if you are grappled, according to RAW:
If successful, both you and the target gain the grappled condition.Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity.This would take two rounds: 1st round the BBEG initiates the grapple, waking the PC. 2nd round the BBEG maintains the grapple, and then move as part of one of the actions you can perform with a successful maintain of a grapple.
I quoted you the specific rules. The grappled creature, not someone who has the grappled condition. That's a subtle difference. Basically, if you are the person doing the grappling, you gain the condition, but you are not the creature grappled. The creature grappled is the target of the grapple, and can't move. The creature doing the grappling can move.
Move: You can move both yourself and your target up to half your speed. At the end of your movement, you can place your target in any square adjacent to you. If you attempt to place your foe in a hazardous location, such as in a wall of fire or over a pit, the target receives a free attempt to break your grapple with a +4 bonus.
By your logic, you could never move anyone, round one, round two, round 50000. Because you are going by the condition, rather than who is the target and the attacker.
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My thoughts (although if the game is breaking up I suppose this is only for future reference):
Undertaking a specific action to kill a sleeping/helpless PC is one of those areas that begs for a GM wisdom check before you do it. It's not a rules question, it's a social contract sort of question. It goes to the heart of what style of game you are running, and whether the players are in the same game you are.
I personally tend to avoid this sort of thing unless I know very well that the players are able to handle it. I've read lots of threads here and on other gaming messageboards where killing a helpless PC is considered a "jerk move".
Yes, you can say "The PC had a chance and failed their CMB/CMD roll by 18!" but to the players, that doesn't really feel like a chance. The game dynamic feels just like a PC being killed by a save-or-die spell without having a chance to do anything about it.
Reading between the lines from some of the other comments made, it appears to me that there are some game compatibility issues already in evidence, and this is probably just the straw that broke the camel's back.
Should your players be willing to return to the game, my advice is to sit down and have a long discussion about the game's social contract. I would even put it in exactly those terms.
FWIW I had a character killed in a very similar way, although in my case it was a case of my gnome/pixie spellthief leaping on a troll's back to keep the troll from performing a coup de grace on another PC, and the GM then had the troll fall off the cliff taking my spellthief with him. I thought it was an awesome and cinematic moment of heroism so I didn't mind at all, but some of the other players were upset at such a sudden and permanent loss of a PC who had been an integral part of the party. But because we had discussed just this sort of potential death in our game prep, it wasn't an issue and the game went on.
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Looks perfectly correct and believable to me. If you are 5-foot away from a cliff edge, falling off is a hazard that doesn't really require enemy help to achieve. Combat that close to a cliff edge would make me want to back away from the edge and take my companions with me, never mind fighting off a BBEG!
Your players' reaction? Well that really is 'Oh no, not Blackleaf!'.
I am guessing you have other reasons to be playing with this group, because that sort of immature reaction would have me wondering why I am playing with them. Having an Animal Companion dive over and then accelerate? Yeeeah, those jet-pack equipped wolves are freaky, aren't they?
seems legit, if a bit ruthless. There is a reason why my casters ALWAYS know featherfall...but yea, I dont think the problem is with your actions, its with the group dynamic as a whole. It seems like the former dm is still in dm mode and wants the game to be run 'his way' instead of your way.
You fall 500ft in a round. he doesnt get 3 actions, he doesnt even get 1. Reposition off cliff, splat. Thats it. Imediate actions only.
ty....
the whole situation is unfortunate. the pc who died feels that he got his checks, was helpless, knew this might happen, and is ok with. The deceased character also knows that resurrection will bring him back and he wants to continue the story and get his revenge!!!! As far as the two other guys...ughhhhh I don't know. The former Gm has been a constant problem and it might be time to change the group. He runs a game already....he wants to run two a week I guess. All the other pcs are happy with the game. Before this encounter he was arguing when he was charmed by charm person spell. "i'm supposed to leave here and get re-enforcements? my character wouldn't do that!!!!" I know....you're charmed....you're not thinking clearly....".ok i'm gone for 5 minutes after I find a city guard" Really, is that YOUR ruling....ty for explaining to the gm how it's going to play out
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While the rules and game mechanic all seem resonable ( I do agree with another blogger; that the sleeping character should have woken up during the trip towards the cliff); as long as that perticular PC was not targeted for any reason other than randomness; then the cliff diving PC should be TOAST. If that particular player pissed off the GM and the GM decided to make it personal that wouldn't be cool at all. But remember this: the hidden crit roll on a troublesome character is the GM's way of saying "Your Pissing Me Off".
Still just wanting to check: Did you actually roll the damage?
Falling 150 feet isn't insta-death, even to some 1st level characters.
The character would fall the full 150 feet in one round. Fall speed is 500 feet for the first round, and 1200 feet every round thereafter. So at best they'd have one round to act - and probably not that, since it most likely was a surprise round.
The only thing that I might ask is this: Did you roll damage for the fall?
Falling only deals 1d6 damage per 10 feet fallen. The character can make a DC 15 Acrobatics check to ignore damage for the first 10 feet, and convert the second 10 feet to nonlethal damage. That would possibly be 1d6 nonlethal damage and 13d6 lethal - with the (slim) possibility that the character only took 13 damage (if you rolled really, really bad).
damage rolled.....front line fighter only had 30 hitpoint (crazy, I know) fall damage well over neg con.....felt bad but that's what they were warned about
Then it all sounds legit to me. I do tend to agree with Adamantine Dragon - unless I let the characters know that I'm running a very gritty game, I usually avoid most situations like this, and for this particular reason; if characters die, they usually die in battle. But it's all by the rules.
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The creature doing the grappling can move.
Move: You can move both yourself and your target up to half your speed. At the end of your movement, you can place your target in any square adjacent to you. If you attempt to place your foe in a hazardous location, such as in a wall of fire or over a pit, the target receives a free attempt to break your grapple with a +4 bonus.
You've left out an essential part of the description leading up to the move grapple action you quoted.
If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold. If your target does not break the grapple, you get a +5 circumstance bonus on grapple checks made against the same target in subsequent rounds. Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple)
Move: You can move both yourself...
By your logic, you could never move anyone, round one, round two, round 50000.
You can move them on round 2 - round 50000 by successfully maintaining your grapple and using the move grapple action.
The grapple action describes the exception to the Grappled condition, which is what grapple actions are available to you as the primary grappler that has maintained the grapple on each subsequent round.
If you don't believe me or what is written in the rules, as another summary which lays this out nicely, look at the grapple flowcharts on d20pfsrd. The move grapple action is only available to the grappler who is controlling, as part of the standard action to maintain the grapple on subsequent rounds.
From a thematic perspective, I agree with Adamantine Dragon as well. Regardless, the RAW mean the minimum time taken to execute this action via Grapple is 2 rounds. I doubt the PCs could have prevented it, given the description, but there would have been a bit more rolling involved.
Since the player of the PC in question has no problems with how this played out, I don't think the rules intricacies of how this would work are particularly relevant.
It seems that your former GM doesn't want to play in a game if it's run differently from how he would have run it and/or he doesn't want to play in a game where he's not in control (considering the charm scenario). If this is the case, it might be best for you and he to part ways.. at least in terms of him being a player in your game.
One question that might be relevant - why exactly was the PC sleeping so close to the edge of a cliff? Was it down to the usual overnight sleep (in which case why did the lookout not wake him?), magically induced sleep or something else?
Then it all sounds legit to me. I do tend to agree with Adamantine Dragon - unless I let the characters know that I'm running a very gritty game, I usually avoid most situations like this, and for this particular reason; if characters die, they usually die in battle. But it's all by the rules.
ty guys for your comments. this was the first pc death in a campaign that has been running for over a year. This tactic, bulrush + paralyze or sleeping + drag was planned ahead. When the front line fighter was dropped sleeping, other pcs said "well, he's asleep for the rest of the fight". nobody tried to wake him or even heal him when he was at 30 hit points left. A whole round happened again with the fighter sleeping on the ledge of a 160 ft drop!!! bad guy keeps taking damage, wants to get away and take one with her. everybody takes free attacks of opportunity.....nobody takes action to stop her....and then poof!!! they dropped of together. Dramatic..yes Gritty....hell yes anger and need for revenge....that's up to them
One question that might be relevant - why exactly was the PC sleeping so close to the edge of a cliff? Was it down to the usual overnight sleep (in which case why did the lookout not wake him?), magically induced sleep or something else?
deep slumber failed saves.....attacks of opp taken
Then it all sounds legit to me. I do tend to agree with Adamantine Dragon - unless I let the characters know that I'm running a very gritty game, I usually avoid most situations like this, and for this particular reason; if characters die, they usually die in battle. But it's all by the rules.
Pretty much this. It's worth bearing in mind that just because something was done by the rules, it doesn't automatically follow that it was fair or correct for your particular game. The only people that really know the answer to that are you and your group.
Stuff
Ah, ok, stand corrected then. As I posted earlier up thread, was mostly going from memory, and missed the highlighted text when I did a quick lookup on moving.
However, I don't think it was relevant. The only provoked AoO's were from the sleeping character (who, given he was asleep from a spell, may not have awakened), and when the big bad backed off the cliff (leaving threatened square). So I don't see anything wrong either way.
I think I would have done the same thing given the opportunity, for without death, where is the challenge?
There are lots and lots of ways to face failure without dying.
In that case I think you were generous in allowing a CMD at all. If the BBEG didn't actually damage the sleeping PC then he was helpless all the way to the bottom of the cliff.
I guess the one thing I would question is when did the bbeg cast feather fall? Right before they hit the ground? Feather fall makes you float down at 60 feet per round so that would give the PCs some time to "stop" the bbeg from getting away at least.
If the bbeg was able to cast it right before they hit the ground I might call foul, but since they cover the distance in 1 round of falling it is iffy how far above the ground they would be when they cast the spell. Still, I would likely give the PCs the benefit of the doubt and give them a round or two to stop the bbeg from getting away.
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Ah, ok, stand corrected then. As I posted earlier up thread, was mostly going from memory, and missed the highlighted text when I did a quick lookup on moving.
However, I don't think it was relevant. The only provoked AoO's were from the sleeping character (who, given he was asleep from a spell, may not have awakened), and when the big bad backed off the cliff (leaving threatened square). So I don't see anything wrong either way.
Sure; for what it's worth, I don't think these rules are easy to understand. I always want to make sure I have them straight!
I think, at most, a) The PC could have awoken, subject to interpretation, giving the PC a few more opposed rolls b) the extra round would have telegraphed to the party the clear intention of the BBEG, who might have been able to martial something creative to save the PC.
The results most likely would have been the same, given how the party was acting.
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I guess the one thing I would question is when did the bbeg cast feather fall? Right before they hit the ground? Feather fall makes you float down at 60 feet per round so that would give the PCs some time to "stop" the bbeg from getting away at least.
Would you limit the PCs the same way? If so, great. But then you have to allow for the PCs being 'shot to wormfood' as they are floating down by ranged bad guys. If not, then the NPC shouldn't be limited either, and should be able to cast it 50ft above the ground, or 10ft, or any other distance they want.
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In that case I think you were generous in allowing a CMD at all. If the BBEG didn't actually damage the sleeping PC then he was helpless all the way to the bottom of the cliff.
I think mdt and I have hammered out how the rules are intended to work in terms of getting the PC off the cliff!
But in terms of the CMD part for RAW, helpless PCs still have a CMD, albeit with a dex of 0, a -5 penalty. Melee attacks against them have a +4 bonus.
So, we're talking about a minimum of a +9 to their existing CMD. It is possible to fail (though probably on a 1).
Worse than that actually.
Anything that affects your AC affects your CMD.
So, a prone (-2 AC), 0 Dex (Asleep) character would have a CMD of 10-5 (dex) -2 (AC mod for being prone) + str = 3+STR. Not a good CMD. Yeah, only a 1 fails. And because anything that boosts attack boosts CMB, the big bad had a +4 to grapple the prone opponent.
Remember, you can be helpless without being prone, so prone stacks.
I have the same reading of the rules as NiktheAvatar. My take on the line of events would be :
Rnd 1 : BBEG initiates grapple as a standard action and the target of the grapple wakes up and joins the initiative.
Rnd 2 : BBEG makes a grapple check as a standard action and, if successful, moves off the ledge with the grappled character (character gets a second grapple check to try and break free due to dangerous conditions with a +4 bonus). Both plummet, the BBEG releases the grapple as a Free action and casts as an Immediate.
Hopefully (for the character) they break the grapple during their initiative, during the free attempt to break or the BBEG fails his grapple check during the second round to maintain the grapple. On a related note the BBEG didn't actually have to go over the cliff with him as grapple let's you move them to an adjacent (i.e. over the edge) square.
Barring that everyone gets a round to act prior to the two of them going off the cliff.