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Okay so there is something of a disparity between the saves among one of my parties, namely a few players saves are through the roof(The paladins and the Magus really) and was wondering has anyone ever has a monster with an ability that inverts the success of saves? Figuring it'd be a good way to mix things up for a fight or two.
For example on a 22 DC save, 22 or higher would fail and anything below a 22 would succeed. A nat 20 would be failure and success would be an auto succeed 1. Thinking it'd be a (Su) Aura. Thoughts?
I am fairly certain that no such ability exists. As a DM I would expect a mutiny if I pulled that kind of stunt. Players invest resources in saves, so they should get good saves. Something was given up along the way to get those saves. You should focus on attacking weak place rather then making one.
As for actually inverting saves (where the attacker must roll, similar to attack vs AC) the targets get three save DC's. 11+(base save)+(ability MOD)+(other bonuses), the attacker must meet that DC with (d20)+(attack modifier [ie, for spells it is the spell level for SLA's it is 1/2 HD])+(relevant ability MOD [ie, INT for wizards]).
I feel it is better than me picking on their already weak points.
Take the Paladin in my group for example( if you're my player reading this, I'm just using you as an example, you're perfectly fine for my level of play). His PC has a high CHA for smites already, but she also has a +6 headband and a +5 Cloak. Her saves are already, aptly, mythic and she hasn't had to do too much to make them so on account of the class, high WBL, and the level of optimization we're playing with.
While yes there are inherent weaknesses that exist in his PC's build, touch AC and CMD come to mind, I feel that hitting those repeatedly would be a bit like picking on that character in specific. I feel like throwing a one off monster at the group with a unique ability such as this would be challenging and force them to change strategies. And I don't think that in other games it's unheard of, abilities in Pokémon(yes, I'm borrowing design decisions from Pokémon) that change the priority of moves or invert who goes first and how defenses react exist, I would be merely applying that kind of design principle to here.
Further more there are other PCs among the groups with very bad saves whom would do well against this kind of effect. And let me stress, I'm not trying to invalidate a character's class in any way, but I merely want to allow these characters to shine in ways they wouldn't normally attempt to.
What "strategy" exactly could a player take to counter this ability? Violate his Paladin code to lose Divine Grace?
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Paladins are meant to have monster saves. Let them enjoy that strength, while hitting them in their weakness from time to time. The players can't complain as long as it makes sense. A recurring enemy will learn the strengths and weaknesses of the party and have no reason not to hit those weaknesses while avoiding those strengths. Consider abilities that do not offer saving throws and give penalties to saves.
My GM ran a dungeon where initiative, attack roles, AC, and saves were all inverted. Hitting the AC 5 Gelatinous Cube required my paladin to dual wield polearms while lying on her back. While it was at times frustrating, the dungeon itself and all the shenanigans we got up to manipulating the rules was a lot of fun.
However, if you're trying to maintain a seriousness to your game using this more than sparingly is a bad idea. Trying out this aura on an weird breed of gremlin? Totally legit and interesting. Most of the time though this is something to stay clear of.
What "strategy" exactly could a player take to counter this ability? Violate his Paladin code to lose Divine Grace?
No, I'm not exactly into Paladin Bait. But for example, one could take more caution in combat/in a dungeon. Currently they just have the Paladin walk through traps since they easily save against all of em.
One could also prepare Debuff spells to cast on allies rather than cast them on enemies.
Temporarly removing gear to lower saves.
Lots of things come to mind.
Paladins are meant to have monster saves. Let them enjoy that strength, while hitting them in their weakness from time to time. The players can't complain as long as it makes sense. A recurring enemy will learn the strengths and weaknesses of the party and have no reason not to hit those weaknesses while avoiding those strengths. Consider abilities that do not offer saving throws and give penalties to saves.
I already do that though, but it feels weird still as I said to pick on those weaknesses. Sorta like bullying my players, even if it makes sense for them to. I guess I am afraid to call out their weaknesses if they're not something that would be super common.
As for abilities that don't offer saves, I'm mixed. Cause yeah, on the one hand, not having saves gets around that problem of high saves well. On the other, most abilities that don't have saves either suck or are completely game changing. Sort of damed if I do, damned if I don't.
Trying out this aura on an weird breed of gremlin? Totally legit and interesting. Most of the time though this is something to stay clear of.
Don't worry, it's meant to just be a one off on a Crazed Arcane Experiment creature. A one off creature they will fight against once, maybe twice depending on if it manages to retreat.
Next: Send a monster against your party that has "inverted AC" where they need to roll lower than the monster's AC to hit them!
15 AC monster and your Fighter has a +15 to-hit? Better hope you roll a 1 you scamp.
They'll LOVE you for it!
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So you think hitting him where his character is weak is unfair, but you think turning his strengths against him in a way that the game doesn't allow for is perfectly acceptable?
Yeah, this. Getting some serious logic issues here. "I don't want to attack his weaknesses, so I'll make him completely weak so every attack is hitting his weaknesses, but not really because ... uh ..."
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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I did this once. It was a trip to a "inverted reality" where your strengths were weaknesses and weaknesses were strengths. It was fun for one session, but the players knew going in that things would be wonky. The entire point was to lure a super strong BBEG into it with them so that they would have the advantage.
I think doing this sort of thing by suprise is dirty pool. Maybe on a "super pugwampi," or other some such creature where there's a hint that luck may turn against the PCs bigtime.
You might want something sort of like the Haunt mechanism- You have to make a successful perception check to actually be affected by it, then it usually requires a saving throw to avoid the bad stuff; being terrified, dazed, what have you, by the ghosts of the dungeon.
Those who don't make their perception checks cannot be affected by what is essentially an illusion.
In a similar way, making some sort of Perception/Save combination traps could be interesting; though you should probably only do it once- it should be a rarity designed to harm 'those pesky knights' or take advantage of a mage's innate intellect and curiosity.
I'm the paladin!
For the record, I am a Gnome Paladin 11 / Mythic Guardian 2.
I have 26 Fortitude, 18 Reflex and 21 Will.
Charisma based, with a hefty 28 Charisma.
I had 180 HP last level.
I usually hover at around 34-40 AC.
I am very well geared, as the wealth level of the campaign is rather high. As mentioned, I have a +6 CHA Headband, a +5 Cloak of Resistance and some other goofy defensive items like a Ring of Blinking and an intelligent Obsessive Ring of Protection +3 (it likes to drink and hates arcane spellcasters). Other notable items are a Winged Shield, Glamoured Full Plate (usually in fancy dress form). I also have an artifact +5 keen battleaxe. And an airship.
I also have Leadership. My cohort is a Gnome Paladin 8 / Stalwart Defender 1 / Mythic Guardian 1. She's STR based. My followers number around 109 in gnomes and a single half-orc. Thanks to wealth, they all retrained into PC classes, but are still mostly of noncombat use.
I believe the intent is less to see me fail and more to have the others shine.
...couldn't you just willingly give up on a saving throw if moon-logic made successes failures and failures successes?
Voluntarily Giving up a Saving Throw
A creature can voluntarily forego a saving throw and willingly accept a spell's result. Even a character with a special resistance to magic can suppress this quality.
That's from 3.5, though. I don't think that line made it to Pathfinder.
You can voluntarily fail a save in PF. It seems like the real issue is that you are out shining the others at the table. Why not work with your GM to scale your character back to be more in line with the rest of the party?
I figured.
Inverting defenses is interesting, but it seems sort of out of character for the system.
But along the same thematic lines I could see an aura that makes certain bonuses into penalties. Perhaps a gremlin related to Pugwampi, (the one with the aura of unluck).
Or, similar to how a crafter can mess up a magic item, a messed up cursed construct with temporary item-cursing powers.
Or some variant of a Demondand's faith-stealing strike to temporarily sever some divine class features.
Or directly turning someone's bonuses against them, such as a Mirror of Opposition or similar effect.
I sort of want to stat up a cursed construct template or creature now.
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But if you're really into the original idea, I'd probably not put it onto a monster, but rather make it into a existing hazard.
Such as ripped dimensional seam into a alternate world where everything great is terrible and everything terrible is great. Bizarro!
A creature, such as the distorted arcane abomination mentioned above, could have an ability that interacts with this distortion, spreading or ceasing it at will. That could be interesting.
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Well, I have been working with him.
Part of the problem is system mastery. Roughly half the party is successful, like myself. The other half, however, is less successful. One had the unfortunate distinction of dying in an effortless encounter with an animated bed through a series of terrible rolls and bad decisions.
The other part of the problem is that mythic has been widening the power gap between the two halves, as doing badass mythic things has led to badass mythic ascension. The less successful half of the party has had less... success doing badass mythic things. Darth has attempted to make up for this gap in other ways, though. One player is a werebear, and another was a Grave Knight for a while, for instance.
It's been a colorful campaign.
Glad to hear your input ShortRedandLoud, was gonna run this by you eventually anyways lol.
I hadn't thought of voluntarily failing saves though. Does sort of put a wrinkle into the concept of the ability. While I could retool it to a penalty to Saves by Inverting Bonuses, as I like that idea, the new problem is I either Single out Paladins(by calling out their bonus to CHA for example) or it's something that's broad enough to just guarantee everyone will fail(Enchantment hurts). I think ultimately this may just be something I will have to abandon :/
As for the nature of it being something the Arcane Abomination would channel from a local source/hazard, that was already built into the concept actually. But I really can't say anymore since you're playing lol
Rather than a specific "screw you, your strength is now going to make you useless!" enemy, maybe go for something a bit less ham-fisted?
Perhaps something that simply NEGATES saves bonuses, instead of inverting them.
It'll hurt the people with more Save bonuses more, but really just kind of levels the playing field overall.
When my players start getting over geared and too powerful according to their level, I use to throw some epic thieves to them when they are off-guard. According to the value magic items have, this is logical and create an unusual encounter based on skills and wits.
When my players start getting over geared and too powerful according to their level, I use to throw some epic thieves to them when they are off-guard. According to the value magic items have, this is logical and create an unusual encounter based on skills and wits.
No offense intended, but IMHO this would get old really fast. Stealing the PCs' gear once or twice is okay, but doing it too often makes the GM look like a prick. Unfortunately, gear is a huge part of what makes characters effective in PF, so removing it can have excessively dire consequences.
IMO, a better idea is to simply upgrade the challenges thrown at the party to match the PCs' new capabilities and maybe slow down their income of WBL. That keeps the game interesing and challenging without arbitrarily nerfing their characters.
A wizard/monster that cast antimagic shield negates ... the paladin bonus form divine grace.
Uh.... since when?
Huh. Did not notice that line.
The goofy high WBL is intentional, and challenges have increased accordingly. We recently fought off a pack of mind-controlled Wendigos. Beat up a pair of mythic earth elementals. And got chased down by a lesser Jabberwocky. At level 10! Wonky as hell, but entertaining.
Antimagic field, iirc, also works to counter most mythic abilities, too.