Deadly Dealer

[La'Vantis Tuen]

Quick Question (I couldn't find the answer with a quick search).

Deadly Dealer

A spellcaster with this feat can enhance a deck of cards as though it were a ranged weapon with 54 pieces of ammunition. This enhancement functions only when used in tandem with this feat, and has no affect on any other way the cards might be used. Only a character who possesses this feat can make use of an enhanced deck of cards, and must still use the Arcane Strike feat to activate the cards’ enhancement.

Do you still need Craft Magic Arms and Armor, or Craft Wondrous Item?

Or does this feat supersede that need (Like a wizard's bonded item)?

Thanks!

[Are]

Hmm. I think it probably allows you to enhance the deck without the need for a crafting feat, but it's not entirely clear. The cost for crafting needs to be paid, regardless :)

[Corbin Dallas]

La'Vantis Tuen wrote:

Quick Question (I couldn't find the answer with a quick search).

Do you still need Craft Magic Arms and Armor, or Craft Wondrous Item?

Or does this feat supersede that need (Like a wizard's bonded item)?

Thanks!

Your character is turning playing cards into "darts" for the purpose of combat. I don't see anything that suggests a Craft check or a bonded item.

[Are]

Corbin: The feat has multiple uses. One lets you throw the cards as darts. The other allows you to enhance a deck of cards as if it was a ranged weapon with 54 pieces of ammunition (so, it allows you to turn the cards into magical darts).

[Rhatahema]

Because the feat doesn't specify that you're treated as having the appropriate item crafting feat for the purpose of enhancing the cards, I would say it only opens up the option of enhancing them as weapons, not the full capability. As they're enhanced as ammunition, I see no reason why you'd need craft wondrous item.

If I were to reword it, I would say "A character with this feat and craft magic arms and armor can enhance each card as though it were a masterwork throwing dart, though at the cost of a unit of ammunition." You might add the stipulation that all 54 cards of a deck must be enhanced at once, but I like the idea of different cards having different enhancements.

It's not clear how the cards are meant to be drawn, since they're only treated as darts (weapons) when thrown. I would either add "You may draw each card as a free action." (since they're treated in some ways as ammunition) or "You may draw each card as though it were a dart." (allowing the use of quick draw).

[Horselord]

Arcane Strike is what enhances the deck. Just think of Gambit out of the X-Men cartoons. Drawing the cards quicker than darts is never specified, so you'll need Quick Draw for iterative attacks.

[LoneKnave]

They count as ammunition, so you don't need quick draw to draw them (as ammo are free action to draw).

[Rhatahema]

Reading the feat, it only states that you can throw a card as though it were a dart, and that you can enhance a deck of cards as though it were ammunition. Neither point explicitly covers how they should be drawn. I'd lean towards treating each card as a thrown weapon for that purpose.

[Zhayne]

I'd consider them to be ammo because you're already using one feat on something pretty weak. No point making QD a feat tax on it.

[Zwordsman]

also dart's are counted as ammo for drawing is it not?

[Kazaan]

You spend a swift action to use arcane strike on each turn you want to utilize the cards. You can enhance a single card (in which case you only get one attack) or you can enhance a deck as a ranged weapon for which the individual cards are counted as ammunition. Ammunition is free to draw so there's no limitation there. You must use Arcane Strike each turn you want to throw cards. It isn't about "crafting" a magical weapon, it's about magically enhancing a mundane item into a sort of cross between an improvised weapon and a magic dart.

[Rhatahema]

Kazaan wrote:

You spend a swift action to use arcane strike on each turn you want to utilize the cards. You can enhance a single card (in which case you only get one attack) or you can enhance a deck as a ranged weapon for which the individual cards are counted as ammunition. Ammunition is free to draw so there's no limitation there. You must use Arcane Strike each turn you want to throw cards. It isn't about "crafting" a magical weapon, it's about magically enhancing a mundane item into a sort of cross between an improvised weapon and a magic dart.

Oh, I see. I misread the use of "enhance", which is used to describe magic weapon crafting. But I now see "enhance" is used to describe arcane strike as well. That clears up why they specify "a ranged weapon with 54 pieces of ammunition", rather than just stating "ammunition".

So the deck is the ranged weapon and the cards are the ammunition. But only projectile weapons use ammunition, not throw weapons. That seems to muddle their function as darts.

[Zhayne]

I'm going to mark this one for the FAQ. It is pretty confusing.

[La'Vantis Tuen]

Zhayne wrote:

I'm going to mark this one for the FAQ. It is pretty confusing.

Thank you, because I too need some clarification here.

Anyway, I'll play it as requiring the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat, but I agree that it'll be fun to enhance the cards differently... like each suit is a different type of elemental damage (draw card in RL to see what character draws).

Rhatahema wrote:

As they're enhanced as ammunition, I see no reason why you'd need craft wondrous item.

I only added the inquiry about Craft Wondrous Item because it's a deck of cards... not a standard weapon. But of course you are correct. I was just hoping someone had seen a ruling otherwise. (everyone likes a little cheese every now and again). I'll just get another party member to enhance it for me.

Zwordsman wrote:

also dart's are counted as ammo for drawing is it not?

I believe your correct. I'll be spending 1 swift action to transform cards into darts; free actions to the draw darts; and the AWESOME BAB of a witch to make full use of that free draw, lol.

[Rhatahema]

I'd like to reiterate that I believe I was wrong in my first post, and agree with Kazaan that the use of "enhance" in this context in no way references magic item crafting.

Arcan Strike wrote:

You draw upon your arcane power to enhance your weapons with magical energy.

Deadly Dealer wrote:

A spellcaster with this feat can enhance a deck of cards as though it were a ranged weapon with 54 pieces of ammunition.

Not the best choice of words, but I think it's clear on a second reading that it's not related to magic item crafting. It's saying that the magic of arcane strike is turning that deck of cards into a ranged weapon and the cards into ammunition (as opposed to turning an individual card into a thrown dart). I think part of why it's misleading is because they explain how the cards work in the first paragraph, and then in the last paragraph give the cards a new function without sufficient explanation.

The question as I see it is how this ranged weapon with 54 pieces of ammunition should function. The only weapon mechanics the feat gives is for throwing an individual card as a dart. For the second option, the mechanics are largely undefined.

[La'Vantis Tuen]

I don't know... Though I agree the phrasing is vague at best, I believe the message their trying to convey is that these may be enhanced in the (dare I say) conventional sense; they may be enchanted like any other weapon.

I really think this needs some clarification.

[PoisonToast]

PRD wrote:

A spellcaster with this feat can enhance a deck of cards as though it were a ranged weapon with 54 pieces of ammunition. This enhancement functions only when used in tandem with this feat, and has no affect on any other way the cards might be used. Only a character who possesses this feat can make use of an enhanced deck of cards, and must still use the Arcane Strike feat to activate the cards’ enhancement.

Taking a look at the 2 bold sentences, there is no reason for those sentences to exist unless it was talking about item crafting. Especially the second one. The second bold sentence indicates your taking an already enhanced deck and using Arcane Strike to activate it like you would activate a Flaming enchantment on a sword.

If you used different terminology, changing cards for shuriken and deck for bag, it come out like sounding like:

"A spellcaster with this feat can enhance a bag of shuriken as though it were a ranged weapon with 54 pieces of ammunition."

While not perfect I think it shows the design intent.

Now I'm off to make an Abundant Ammunition Deck of Cards...

[La'Vantis Tuen]

PoisonToast sees it the same as I, (just conveyed his message more elegantly).

[Rhatahema]

Just buy some darts. :D

Anyway, using either interpretation, the wording is confusing. Really, if you can enhance them, it should be as darts but for the price of ammunition (as I previously suggested). Enhancing them as though they were "a ranged weapon with 54 pieces of ammunition" is just nonsensical. The deck of cards is the ammunition. What's the ranged weapon?

Marked for FAQ. If this is ever answered, I hope there will be some elaboration beyond the initial question.

[PoisonToast]

Rhatahema wrote:

Just buy some darts. :D

Anyway, using either interpretation, the wording is confusing. Really, if you can enhance them, it should be as darts but for the price of ammunition (as I previously suggested). Enhancing them as though they were "a ranged weapon with 54 pieces of ammunition" is just nonsensical. The deck of cards is the ammunition. What's the ranged weapon?

Marked for FAQ. If this is ever answered, I hope there will be some elaboration beyond the initial question.

The range weapon is the deck box, you don't just keep loose cards in your bag or pocket. They will get all bent up! That is no way to treat a harrow deck. The spirits might get angry, then you get The Harrowing!

I agree, they should clarify.

Note: all links are to the Paizo Store.

[PoisonToast]

Rhatahema wrote:

Just buy some darts. :D

Oh, and darts are totally not as cool as being Gambit from the x-men. That's not a opinion, its a fact. ;)

I'm drawing up Remy LeBeau right now as a Varisian staff wielding Magus...

[Kazaan]

Dart: 5 sp for 1. Masterwork Dart: 300 gp for 1 (it's not ammunition, it's a thrown weapon like a javelin).

Deck of Cards: 1sp-100 gp for 54, Harrow Deck: 100 GP for 54.

Cost per toss of a normal dart: 1sp. Cost per toss of a card via Deadly Dealer: 1.85 coppers for the lowest-cost deck available, up to 18.5 silver if you splurge on a 100gp non-harrow deck. A 27gp deck will break even with the cost of darts.

Cost per toss of masterwork dart: 300 gp. Cost per toss of a "masterwork-equivalent" card from a Harrow Deck: 18.5 sp. Even if you priced throwing darts as ammo (6 gp each), that's still 6 gp per toss vs 18.5 silver per toss from a harrow deck. It's a matter of money management. Moreover, a deck of cards is a mundane item that would be overlooked in a search. If the guards search you and find a pouch full of throwing darts, they clearly know it's a weapon and will act accordingly. If they search you and find a deck of playing cards or even fortune telling cards, they're not going to readily recognize that it's been magically weaponized.

[Matthew Morris]

@Poison Toast. I never thought of going Magus. I was thinking arcane duelist bard with a staff. (Remy has lots of Charisma)

Kazann,

I don't have my book handy, but if darts are thrown weapons don't they not get destroyed on hitting? (like daggers and axes?) if the cards are treated as ammo, wouldn't they be destroyed but darts wouldn't?

[La'Vantis Tuen]

Deadly Dealer wrote:

A card is destroyed when thrown in this way.

it's built into the feat; but I agree that Magus is the best route. I don't see him prancing about playing a lute...or even going the dancing dervish path...

[LoneKnave]

Dawnflower Dervish can use any Perform feat for Dervish dancing. It's usually just Dance.

Use Perform:Comedy, and make a pun or one liner every throw.

"Pick a card!"

[Are]

Rhatahema wrote:

Not the best choice of words, but I think it's clear on a second reading that it's not related to magic item crafting. It's saying that the magic of arcane strike is turning that deck of cards into a ranged weapon and the cards into ammunition (as opposed to turning an individual card into a thrown dart). I think part of why it's misleading is because they explain how the cards work in the first paragraph, and then in the last paragraph give the cards a new function without sufficient explanation.

There would be no reason to include the third paragraph of the feat it that was all there was to it. The first two paragraphs would have sufficed, since right from the first paragraph it's stated that you must use Arcane Strike in conjunction with throwing the cards.

Regardless, since there seems to be nearly as many opinions on how this works or is supposed to work as there have been posters in the thread, I suggest that people click the FAQ button :)

For reference, here's the complete text of the feat, since it so far hasn't been posted in the thread:

D20PFSRD; Deadly Dealer wrote:

Your skill with handling cards and arcane talents allow you to turn mundane cards into deadly weapons.

Prerequisites: Arcane Strike, Sleight of Hand 5 ranks.

Benefit: You can throw a card as though it were a dart, with the same damage, range, and other features. You must use the Arcane Strike feat when throwing a card in this way, or else the card lacks the magical force and precision to deal lethal damage. A card is destroyed when thrown in this way.

Harrow cards are treated as masterwork weapons when thrown using this feat, but are still destroyed after they are thrown. A harrow deck can no longer be used as a fortunetelling device after even a single card is thrown.

A spellcaster with this feat can enhance a deck of cards as though it were a ranged weapon with 54 pieces of ammunition. This enhancement functions only when used in tandem with this feat, and has no affect on any other way the cards might be used. Only a character who possesses this feat can make use of an enhanced deck of cards, and must still use the Arcane Strike feat to activate the cards’ enhancement.

[Samasboy1]

Until this thread, I always thought it meant you could apply a permanent Craft Arms and Armor enhancement to the cards. But since cards aren't actually darts, and you can only attack with them when using this feat, the weapon enhancement only had an effect when used with this feat.

Kazaan does make a persuasive argument though, that it could simply be referring to use of the Acane Strike feat.

But the thought of a +1 deck of endless ammunition, or +1 returning deck is too great to want to give up. Maybe Flaming Burst, or even Brilliant Energy, to replicate the glowing "charged" look of Gambit's cards.

I would definitely lean toward Staff Magus, but several Bard archetypes could work.

[Are]

Samasboy1 wrote:

Kazaan does make a persuasive argument though, that it could simply be referring to use of the Acane Strike feat.

If that argument is correct, then the third paragraph is entirely unnecessary, since all throwing of cards with "Deadly Dealer" requires the use of Arcane Strike (as per the first paragraph).

[Kazaan]

Matthew Morris wrote:

Kazann,

I don't have my book handy, but if darts are thrown weapons don't they not get destroyed on hitting? (like daggers and axes?) if the cards are treated as ammo, wouldn't they be destroyed but darts wouldn't?

Good point. But still, how many darts are you going to carry? 10 darts would cost you 50 sp for standard ones, or 3k gold for masterwork. Sure, you can retrieve them after the fight, but you've only got 10 tosses per encounter barring mid-battle retrieval. Meanwhile, 100 gold gives you 54 disposable masterwork darts that you just need to spend your swift action to use in any given round. And it doesn't change the fact that a pouch full of throwing darts will raise far more suspicion than a deck of fortunetelling cards.

[Samasboy1]

Are wrote:

Samasboy1 wrote:

Kazaan does make a persuasive argument though, that it could simply be referring to use of the Acane Strike feat.

If that argument is correct, then the third paragraph is entirely unnecessary, since all throwing of cards with "Deadly Dealer" requires the use of Arcane Strike (as per the first paragraph).

Well, I didn't say I was convinced, just that it was a persuasive argument.

I don't agree with him, after looking back over all the material, and here's why.

Kazaan wrote:

You can enhance a single card (in which case you only get one attack) or you can enhance a deck as a ranged weapon for which the individual cards are counted as ammunition

This is mistaken. Arcane Strike by itself could already enhance all of the cards together, not just a single card.

Arcane Strike wrote:

As a swift action, you can imbue your weapons with a fraction of your power. For 1 round, your weapons deal +1 damage and are treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. For every five caster levels you possess, this bonus increases by +1, to a maximum of +5 at 20th level.

It is "weapons," plural. So, if you treat it as 54 darts, or one weapon with 54 pieces of ammunition, its the same to Arcane Strike. All your weapons are enhanced by the feat.

So if the third paragraph isn't referring to Arcane Strike, it must be referring to something else. Craft Magic Arms and Armor. I would also allow Magus Arcane Pool to enhance the deck as a whole.

[seebs]

I was reading it as meaning that you could cast something like Magic Weapon on the deck of cards, but they'd only count as weapons for you, and only when using Arcane Strike.

Basically, as solving the problem that, normally, you can't cast Magic Weapon on things that aren't weapons.

[La'Vantis Tuen]

Also the Alpha Release Warlord that I have is...quite nice for the gambit build...

You just need to get past the whole 'Prerequisite: Ability to cast arcane spells' bit. (I believe just being a half-elf with the Drow Magic trait will cover it).

Just only take boosts that don't enhance your ranged attacks since action economy won't allow you to use arcane strike and the boosts together.

[neferphras]

i am very much thinking of building a gambit character with this magus template from the Harrow Handbook.

One additional question on top of this already nice thread is

Can you by a masterwork silvered or cold iron Harrowing deck.

Before you think I am off my rocker, there is a magical item in the same book:

Deck Of Slivering Fate that is
+1
and metal edged
and changes the damage from piercing the slashing and doubles the effects of arcane strike.

now its more expensive than an +1 but the damage type shift and arcane gloves like effect account for that well enough.

All this implies that the answer could very well be yes. You could buy the deck as ammunition and apply things like cold iron and master work to it, but there are no rules in the book for doing so and no statement saying it is legal.