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Yes. Tieflings are considered outsiders. My logic for this is thus.
The target is aligned creature. Creatures have an alignment unless true neutral. A creature that is not undead or an outsider pings on an HD of 5 or more.
Tieflings are outsiders albeit native. If you have an evil tiefling he will ping even if he has a low HD because all you need for an outsider to ping is an HD of 1.
Subtypes will cause the detect spells to go off, but if you have an outsider without a subtype and a low HD they still ping.
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There's some debate about that.
The question boils down to: does the term "Aligned Outsider" in Detect Evil mean "an outsider with the (evil) subtype" or "an outsider with an evil alignment (but not necessarily subtype)." If it's the former, a 1st level tiefling does not have an aura, but if it's the latter the tiefling will.
Its the latter. Subtypes force you to detect as an alignment. Outsiders are simply easier to detect due to them being manifestations of metaphysical forces. Rules as Written I don't see any room for misinterpretation.
Aligned creature excludes Outsiders.
The Tiefling is an Outsider, then he detects as his alignment no matter his HD.
If you don't consider that to be correct then you kinda have to wonder why they put Aligned Outsider there at all if they didn't mean Outsiders without a subtype as well. Creatures with an alignment subtype always detect as that alignment. Outsiders aren't an exception to that either. There are creatures out there with the Good subtype.
This seems to be a strange argument against what is written.
I could very easily apply Aligned Outsider to Aligned Creature. Does that mean you can't detect normal creatures without a subtype with any detect spell?
They use the same terminology.
Aligned Creature again excludes Outsiders, so if Tieflings aren't considered Outsiders in that description then they would simply be undetectable, outside the purview of the spell.
Seems to me the RAW ruling agrees with me. As there are not that many normal creatures with the Evil subtype, and since we have no precedent for bringing subtypes into the conversation.
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If Aligned Outsider is treated as "outsider with (aligned) subtype" and Aligned Creature is treated as "any creature having the alignment that does not fall within the other categories" then the evil tiefling falls into the Aligned Creature category just fine.
I agree that as mentioned on the thread I linked it seems perverse to interpret Aligned Creature as "creature of alignment" and Aligned Outsider as "outsider with sybtype."
However, it seems equally perverse to say that a good tiefling has an extra-strong aura of Good because it happens to be an outsider of good alignment, despite the fact that its extraplanar ties are to an evil plane. As far as I can tell that's RAW, but I don't think it's RAI.
I personally would consider houseruling that tieflings and aasimar get extra-strong auras only if their actual alignment happens to correspond with their extraplanar heritage, but that's definitely a house rule.
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So we wind up with evil aasimar detecting with strong evil alignments and good tieflings detecting with strong good alignments, even if they're being played as dealing with heavy influence from their heritage. Hm.
That does run some interference on certain concepts...
I stand corrected. By RAW it does appear that native outsiders would register for detect spells.
I agree with Weirdo that it does seem against intent that such creatures will radiate an aura as per their own alignment despite the origins of their outsider nature.
I don't feel its against intent or odd at all. If it weren't this way we would not be able to detect outsiders without a subtype at all. Also we wouldn't be able to detect a vampire in our midst if he had to have to evil subtype to be detected.
When you use the same terminology you need to apply the same meaning in each iteration.
If Aligned doesn't mean the same for each creature, we'd have to add even more text to an already long spell.
The best thing is all of this applies to Aasimars as well. Its about time there was a downside to playing those overpowered races.
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I don't feel its against intent or odd at all. If it weren't this way we would not be able to detect outsiders without a subtype at all.
Is that a problem? I thought that the reason that aligned outsiders detect more strongly was that non-neutral outsiders are usually* strongly tied to / composed of the appropriate aligned plane, hence the subtypes (which enforce the ties of that alignment even if the individual outsider manages to deviate from the alignment somehow). And if they aren't physically composed of or otherwise invested with the stuff of the appropriate alignment, then why should they detect more strongly than, say, a dragon?
Also we wouldn't be able to detect a vampire in our midst if he had to have to evil subtype to be detected.
Undead are supposed to be extra-evil in PF even without the subtype, and they don't need to detect differently even if outsiders are changed.
When you use the same terminology you need to apply the same meaning in each iteration.
If Aligned doesn't mean the same for each creature, we'd have to add even more text to an already long spell.
It's a pretty minor change if outsider subtype was the intent:
Aligned outsider > Outsider with (aligned) subtype
Cleric or paladin of aligned deity > (unchanged)
Aligned undead > Undead
Aligned creature > Other creature (or other aligned creature)
I don't think you actually need to use the "aligned" term all over the place, because the spell already states that it detects alignment auras and it seems pretty obvious to me that a nonevil creature doesn't have an evil aura at all (under ordinary circumstances).
The best thing is all of this applies to Aasimars as well. Its about time there was a downside to playing those overpowered races.
Why do you see detecting more strongly as a downside? Because at level 1-4 the antipaladin or enemy inquisitor can find out your alignment?
If you still wanted Aasimar/Tieflings to detect abnormally you could always give the race an "Aura" trait just like the cleric has an "Aura," possibly limiting it to evil tieflings and good aasimar, or if you wanted to mess with these races then state that despite not having the (aligned) subtype they detect as an outsider with the (aligned) subtype in addition to having their normal aura - so a level 1 good tiefling detects as evil but not good, while a level 1 tiefling paladin detects equally strongly of good and evil. And the party's inquisitor could be tricked by a level 1-4 evil aasimar who detects as good.
There is no RAW to state that Aligned Outsider = outsider with an alignment subtype. There is no RAW to state that Aligned Outsider =/= subtype.
Someone should really FAQ this. :)
In any case, even if Aligned Outsider = outsider with an alignment subtype it would not change the rest. Just because that clause meant Outsider with a alignment subtype does not mean that the rest would.
There are places in the rules where the alignment of certain creatures (clerics, paladins, and outsiders with an alignment subtype) are treated differently (stronger) than the rest of creatures. Example: Litany of Righteousness.
- Gauss
The most literal reading of this seems counterintuitive. Clarification would be good. FAQ'd
There is no RAW to state that Aligned Outsider =/= subtype.
- Gauss
Well, except that, as Scavion mentioned, then you would have "Aligned" mean different things at the same time.
If "Aligned" means "having an alignment" for humanoids, the meaning should be the same for Outsiders.
I don't have the issue with this some others are expressing. Tieflings and Aasimar do descend from fiends/celestials respectively, but their own alignments are specifically not dependent or influenced by this heritage. However, the mere fact they are outsiders could be the element that strengthens their aura to detectable levels.
If you wanted to "fix" this, I wouldn't change Detect Evil or Outsider. I would change Native subtype. After the sentence "Unlike true outsiders, native outsiders need to eat and sleep," add "Native outsiders' alignment detects as a humanoid, and not as an aligned Outsider."
Apologies for the necro, but I encourage everyone to FAQ the top post!
Samasboy has the right idea. The main issue lies with native outsiders because, as others have said, it seems odd to have an evil aasimar detect as strongly evil for being an assimar (and vice versa).
I have some characters where this might come up and an official ruling would be greatly appreciated.
Edit- more specifically, I'm playing an aasimar in Way of the Wicked. It certainly has it's own challenges besides this one!
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When did aasimars/tieflings come around (or become common/playable) relative to the table in the Detect spells? It could be that the native subtype simply wasn't considered when Detect Evil was written.
When did aasimars/tieflings come around (or become common/playable) relative to the table in the Detect spells? It could be that the native subtype simply wasn't considered when Detect Evil was written.
3.5. Detect Spells have been around for a long time.
As far as making the mechanics work, I consider those who are descended from ideology made manifest tend to detect more strongly.
But in what way? Their blood or their mind (actual alignment)?
If the detect spells are sufficiently old, I'd be inclined to suggest that native outsiders may have been neglected or nonexistent when the spells were written.
I'd just like to know for sure how it's supposed to work.
But in what way? Their blood or their mind (actual alignment)?
If the detect spells are sufficiently old, I'd be inclined to suggest that native outsiders may have been neglected or nonexistent when the spells were written.
I'd just like to know for sure how it's supposed to work.
Neither and both, their very being one and all causes the effect. As an outsider I believe natives affect their very physical being with their ideology. Evil Aasimars are pale and lose luster. Goodly Tieflings have a brighter shade of red and subdued infernal/demonic features.
For sure it works as currently written. Aasimar and Tieflings detect at any HD on evil or good. An evil Aasimar is without doubt an "Aligned Outsider" as much as an Evil Human is without doubt an "Aligned creature" or a Vampire being an "Aligned Undead".
Even a 3 HD imp that has been redeemed and turned to good detects as good. It still detects as evil because of its subtype, but it detects good all the same because it's an outsider.
Simply claiming it's obvious doesn't make it so. I'm still not convinced that native outsiders were overlooked during the writing or pathfinder conversion. Somewhere.
What does the evil aasimar detect as? Good? Evil? Evil based on 'creature' or 'outsider'?
I just want some clarification on this. I can understand both perspectives.
Even a 3 HD imp that has been redeemed and turned to good detects as good. It still detects as evil because of its subtype, but it detects good all the same because it's an outsider.
That just doesn't seem intuitive to me, and that's why some developer clarification would be useful.
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Specifically, would an evil-aligned but low-level tiefling have an evil aura, detectable by Detect Evil?
Does it have the [evil] subtype? Or just NE/CE/LE alignment?
If it has the subtype, it detects as evil.
If it has the alignment, and is not outsider type, and has 5 or more HD, then it detects as evil.
If it has the alignment, and is outsider type, then it detects as evil.
Yes, yes, that is RAW. But is it RAI?
I still haven't been able to figure out if native outsiders existed when the detect table was created.
Everyone please hit FAQ on the first post. Let's get this settled once and for all!
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Yes, yes, that is RAW. But is it RAI?
I still haven't been able to figure out if native outsiders existed when the detect table was created.
It is RAI and they did exist because they existed in 3.5:
3.5 Version
But the detect spell is older than 3.5, isn't it? It's from 3.0 at least, I can't check earlier editions-- I don't believe those are available online?
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But the detect spell is older than 3.5, isn't it? It's from 3.0 at least, I can't check earlier editions-- I don't believe those are available online?
There was a deliberate change and if you have GM'd much you know why. People play PC's with Detect Evil as some kind of "find where the monsters are hiding" method.
So they deliberately changed it and I believe it is to prevent level 1 to 4 PC's from learning where the low level evil dudes are hiding.
I understand what you're saying, but unless I'm missing something it seems tangential to the conversation. The outsider line in that table is unchanged, and I still haven't seen any convincing evidence that native outsiders weren't overlooked.
Even if we go by the current RAW, it doesn't make sense for a good tiefling to have a stronger aura of good.. because he's made of the stuff of evil planes. Do you see my confusion?
90% of the time I'm pretty sure what the intention behind the rules are, and I don't like to bother the devs with unnecessary questions, but I'm legitimately unsure on this one.
edit- grammar
Just assume that outsiders are made of hyper-conductive alignment stuff and spare yourself the headache.
When my good-aligned imp from before detects good, doesn't that imply that outsiders do have more of an aura no matter whether or not their alignment matches their subtype and the good or bad stuff they're made of.
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Aasimar and tieflings popped up as playable races in the 3.0 Forgotten Realms campaign setting, which came after the 3.0 Players Handbook, and detect evil was functionally unchanged between 3.0 and 3.5.
Yes, it's possible that native Outsiders were "forgotten" when they were introduced.
However, native Outsiders are still Outsiders, and the native subtype clearly lays out how the subtype alters their interaction with spells (by pointing out that they can be resurrected). So there are no grounds for assuming they interact with detect spells any differently to any other Outsider, since they are still Outsiders. It's functionally the same as questioning whether an Outsider with the demon subtype behaves differently to detect evil.
The tricky thing is alignment subtypes (which most native Outsiders aren't going to have to worry about). An alignment subtype causes a creature with that subtype to trigger effects based on the subtype, regardless of, and in addition to, what their alignment actually is.
So, taking my favourite example, the Lawful Good succubus (LG Medium outsider (chaotic , demon , evil , extraplanar)).
She "pings" to all four detect alignment spells, as an Outsider of her HD. She takes a negative level if she picks up a +1 holy sword. Heaven forbid she grabs a +1 anarchic, axiomatic, holy, unholy sword. She interacts with [Good] spells as if she were Evil and [Evil] spells as if she's Good. She is, in short, the most boned (pun intended) creature in the multiverse when it comes to aligned effects.
Pray she never meets a gung-ho paladin who smites first, asks questions later.
No need to be condescending, James. If you'll recall I haven't claimed any interpretation to be 'right.'
I just think that the interaction with native outsiders is odd enough to warrant some clarification. As I mentioned, I rarely find myself in this situation. Usually I'm arguing that the rules are clear and don't need developer input.
There have been multiple threads about this. I'm not the only one who's confused. Let just get it settled.
To respond to Thymus, that's what I would assume to be the case if the spell is indeed correct. But it's not intuitive, and it'd be helpful to make sure it's RAI.
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No need to be condescending, James.
There have been multiple threads about this. I'm not the only one who's confused. Let just get it settled.
Sorry I didn't mean to be.
You will never get an answer to this question. Frankly it is so low on the stress level and an insignificant number of people are only pondering if this is intent.
There are probably 50 other FAQ issues that are one of these:
- A very confusing rule with multiple interpretations (this only has one.)
- A rule that is clear but absolutely against RAI (and as of yet unclarified.)
Both of these type of issues need to be clarified before this needs to be.
Yes. They are of the outsider type with the native subtype.
Detect Evil clearly says all outsiders with an evil alingment glow as faint evil if they are 1 HD or less.
That's ok. It can be hard to tell tone through text.
I agree that RAW is quite clear, and now that I know when tieflings/aasimars were introduced it makes me lean a bit more towards RAW. It's just that tieflings detecting strongly good for being of Hell doesn't make much sense to me. Not that it isn't explainable if it's intended.
I figure it's worth a shot to get some clarification. FAQ responses seem to be spotty from what I can tell.
Tieflings are not beings of the evil planes. They are native outsiders, which means they are beings of the prime material plane. Just like aasimars aren't beings of the good planes. That appears to be where your confusion is creeping in.
Tieflings are outsiders but native to the prime, hence their native subtype. That means they are only PARTIALLY made up of the energies of the outer planes.
But it still makes their type OUTSIDER. Not Humanoid. Not monstrous humanoid. Not animal or elemental or whatever. Outsider.
So they are an Outsider and their alignment will affect how Detect Evil affects them. If this Tiefling is good and level 1, detect evil won't care. But if they are evil and level 1, or even unclassed, Detect evil will ping then at the lowest level of evil. Thy are an evil aligned outsider.
Note the difference between having the evil DESCRIPTOR and an evil ALIGNMENT. All who have the first have the second but not all who have the second have the first.
Edit: Weird. The post I was replying to was Ninja'd before I replied to it.
I deleted it when I realized I was asking a stupid question.
I never claimed that they come from evil/good planes, I understand that much! (Give me a little credit here guys [: ) But the reason they are native outsiders is because their bloodline is tainted with the essences of good/evil planes.
Does it not seem even a little odd that beings tainted by Hell have a stronger aura of good because of it? Or at least how someone could find it so?
(edited for grammar. It's late)
--Also, I realized my previous posts could have been a bit misleading. When I said, "being of Hell," I meant "of the stuff of Hell." As in their blood, as mentioned above.
Aha! I get where you're coming from.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're saying that tieflings have built in "Abyss-stuff" or "Hell-stuff" and Aasimar have built in "Heavenly-stuff" or whatever, and you can't figure out why "Abyss-stuff" doesn't resonate with detect evil. Am I close?
If I am, I have a non-rule-based explanation which was certainly true in 3.x (my knowledge of Golarion's cosmology is limited at best).
Here goes: there is no such thing as "Abyss-stuff" or "Heaven-stuff". There is only "plane-stuff" which has the property of resonating strongly with alignment, such that "plane-stuff" from the Abyss reads as CE (for example). It is this property of "plane-stuff" that gives rise to alignment subtypes. A demon has the evil subtype because it is made of "plane-stuff" and comes from an evil aligned plane.
Lacking an aligned plane to take on the properties of, the "plane-stuff" that forms parts of native Outsiders can only resonate with the alignment of the creature itself. Creatures made from a "significant" (read: are Outsiders) portion of "plane-stuff" trigger an enhanced response from detect alignment spells.
As such, even though the original "plane-stuff" that triggered a particular tiefling's heritage was evil, that has no bearing on the "plane-stuff" in the tiefling itself, which will respond to detect alignment spells based on the tiefling's actual alignment, and will do so as an Outsider because the tiefling has enough "plane-stuff" making it up to make it an Outsider.