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Hey everyone, just wanted to get some opinions on how you deal with character death, I have a specific situation I am finding frustrating. My party is playing through Jade Regent, currently they are traveling the Crown of the World (Arctic)where during the trip to spicen up the travel, they were taken into the Harrowed Realm, however there lifeless bodies remained on Golorian while the NPCs continue the travel and watch over them. Now, 1 character has already died while in the harrowed realm and accepted a reincarnate because it was all that was available and was excited about it as she came back as a male half-orc when she was originally a female halfling witch, having lots of fun with it.
Now, I have another character who I have posted about before, who got himself in a bad situation and was killed by a creature+environment. Instead of seeking out a reincarnate, he is refusing it as it might "gimp" his character. Instead he insisted on the party using a special item the party received which can raise dead once per month however it basically sends a message to the main group of villains who are trying to find you telling them your specific location. The party refused him this option as it was not worth the risk.
Now the party needs to escape the harrowed realm still so he was told he could play a NPC for the next couple of sessions as they have no way of finding a diamond worth 5000gp. The problem still remains that when they get out of the harrowed realm they still have weeks to travel to the nearest civilization and find a diamond for raise dead or resurrection.
To make matters worse, when I told him he would be playing a NPC if he wanted to go this way and warned him he would be leaving the party at a disadvantage ( I feel being selfish ) said "Well can't we just assume the boss we fight has a diamond?" This made me angry, basically dictating to me what treasure we should find and saying character death should go unpunished. How do you guys deal with character death in this sense? let them pop raise dead spells like candy? I have been considering doing a 1st free raise dead, 2nd 20% fail, 3rd 50% fail, 4th it doesn't work as the spirit begins to reject coming back.
Just feel the game has no threat if there is no fear of being destroyed aside from a TPK, when even a NPC could collect a part of a body.
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I would have a side conversation with this player that went something like this:
"Dude, it's a game. I let the metagaming you telling everyone how to bring you back from the dead slide, but you are kind of being pushy at this point with everyone.
"I'm sorry (insert character name here) died, but that is a part of the game, and there are (insert number of other players in the game) other people at the table. When the witch died, she accepted it and the game moved forward and her character kind of got cooler.
"If you want to wait to bring your original character back and play an NPC until then, that is fine. If you want to roll a new character, that is fine too. But it isn't cool to be so pushy."
There are many views on how serious death should be. Some people think 5000gp is too expensive. Others think it's too cheap. (But usually there is a way to convert gold to diamond dust.)
(Would you let him have a new character of the same wealth and level?)
If dying means spending a session where you don't get to play and then spending 5000gp and having a couple of negative levels, that's a punishment.
My least worst solution as GM for this situation would be to say to the players, 'Just take the risk and use the (special technique that works only once a month) - leaving your friend dead to protect yourselves is cowardly, and offensive to anyone of good alignment.'
I always allow to be same level and wealth. That conversation about others accepted reincarnate happened. Curious what others have to say cirtose and Matthew thank you, I do agree with both statements. Seems the player doesn't really for.in with the rest of the groups mind set and how we approach the game
When I GM, I don't allow any come-back-from-the-dead abilities to work except for Breath of Life (and in previous D&D's, where Breath of Life wasn't a think, I let them come back if an appropriate spell was cast within one minute of their "death.").
I've never had a problem. People are a lot more careful when you play for keeps, and I've actually never had a PC die in a D&D game as a result.
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You handled it pretty well but I can see your player's point, although he shouldn't have a sense of entitlement as he appears to have (he shouldn't have expected you to throw him a free diamond).
In most cases I hate it when control is taken away from my character. Although it depends on the character I play, I would really really really hate it if my character concept was suddenly irreversibly changed in both crunch and fluff. It is a violation on multiple levels.
Can you imagine lovingly building a charismatic halfling duelist and suddenly reincarnating as a Troglodyte? Or playing a melee paladin and becoming a Goblin? That's not even going into race-specific crunch or the change in size category. It would be incredibly annoying to lose a racial ability that's necessary for your build (like a bite from Tiefling) or being suddenly unable to use your weapons and armor because you've grown/shrunk a size. In flavor it's even worse. Your whole 'self-image' is suddenly determined for you.
My problem with this varies from character to character, it's not much of a problem for the less serious ones.
The thing to consider is: he doesn't like being told how to play, just like you didn't like being told what loot to award. You both don't like having control taken away from your character/game.
Options I'd consider in this case:
1) Give the option to sell/transform his gear to pay for the diamond (his party shouldn't suffer for his convenience)
2) Give the party the option to use the resurrection item in a scrying-shielded location
3) Give the PC to option to get a Polymorph Any Object or something similar some time after the Reincarnation
I will say depends on how did he died.
If he was playing decent but just got bad luck, go easy on him and let the party loot a diamond and some gold pieces on their way to fight that boss. If the party found the diamond and still want to fight the boss, let them all die. If they are smart enough to go back to revive the dead character, problem solved.
If he was being dumb and does things he shouldn't have like charge into a fire elemental with lava all over the floor. I think you know what to do.
Yes, character dead shouldn't be unpunished, however, can't punish someone if he did nothing wrong. Pure bad luck happens... (rolled 1s on d20 26% of all times...)
Why don't you let him use the seal?
It's the reason it is there, to help the players.
That's the choice of the players who's characters are still alive. The player of the dead character wants them to use it, but they are balking at the idea of advertising to the villain their exact location and, technically, the dead character has no way to communicate this to them anyway so the only part he has in any discussion on the matter would be if they tried casting reincarnate and the character refused the call.Why don't you let him use the seal?
It's the reason it is there, to help the players.
As a player in a Jade Regent game (just finished book 4)
*until the party's cleric hits level 9 where he gets plane shift, then they can go to a proper city and purchase the necessary diamond dust in order to remove the negative level.
If the player can't handle their character dying, then I'd say you're going to run into more problems with them somewhere down the line.
If he insists on playing it out and refuses the reincarnation, then I don't see any reason the other characters can't simply strip him of his gear, and sell it to raise funds for the raise dead.
Or you can just as a group decide not to bother with consequences in your game. That's a fair enough option if it's what you all want.
As a player in a Jade Regent game (just finished book 4) i have to say...
The consequences of Using The Seal in Jade Regent are (a) a spoiler (fear of what might happen is much more tense than knowing) and (b) subject to GM whim - there's a monster in the back of book 3 that it's very tempting to throw at party if you think they're being too careless.
You did the right thing imo.
Dude is dead, reincarnate or make new dude, they are your options, pick one. Period.
We do not know what level the party is but if they have access to plane shift because if they do have access they can use it (and teleport) to back to Kalsgard and have him raised by buying the diamonds needed.
@Matthew Downie
@stuart haffenden
I am not sure if you have understood, but the party has (from the end of book 1) an item that can (among other things) ressurect one of the PCs once per month.
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While the player does seem somewhat entitled (which is a problem all in it's own), I can understand the issues with reincarnate. For a character that's based around mental stats, the spell can be a boon, and at worst a minor inconvenience. For a martial type, it can completely destroy their effectiveness in combat (imagine a natural weapons based character being reincarnated into a human... whoops, suddenly 90% of your feats/items/abilites are unusable ! Yay!).
There's also the issue of character attachement. Serious attachement to a character can make this very painful, and if I've invested months of effort getting the chracter where they are, I would be more likely to simply want to start out with a new character than be forced to have my own "changed against my will".
While the player might be thinling any number of these things, he is acting rather entitled, which is another problem entirely.
Note: I hate the wording of reincarnate. It says :
"It's possible for the change in the subject's ability scores to make it difficult for it to pursue its previous character class. If this is the case, the subject is advised to become a multiclass character."
Considering how utterly awful multiclassing is in pathfinder (as well as the fact that you'll basically become an empowered level 1 character), this seems like awful advice.
If you have a 9th level cleric and wizard available then magic can solve all your probelms quite easily.
A simple plane shift back to the material plane (if the characters aren't there) and then a teleport spell to get back to a major city. Purchase the requisite materials for a raise dead etc (by selling some of the players belongings) and raise him. Plane shift and teleport back to previous location.
If they do not have access to these then your options are more severe.
First, do not let the dead characters player browbeat anyone into using the Seal on him. If the other players choose to do so that is fine, but don't let him convince them. His character is dead and has no way to contact them. If they players try to contact his soul that is different, he could tell them his desires then. If the players decide that using the seal is worth the risk the problem is solved. If the players decide that it isn't then a reincarnate could work in the short term. If this reincarnates him into a race he doesn't care for, allow him (at a later point) to search out a wizard to use polymorph any object to return him to his original race for a fee. The player of the dead character shouldn't know whether or not the spell attempting to revive him is a reincarnation or a raise dead, but because of the effect this could have on the character I would allow it so he has a least some choice and control over the situation. If he finds the reincarnate option with the ability to restore his race at a later time too unpalatable tell him he can play an NPC until his companions can use raise dead on him. DO NOT cause him to lose experience in this instance. If you're willing to let him play a new character with appropriate gear and level letting him fall behind isn't fair either. Being forced to play a lower level and ucomparitively undergeared NPC for a session or two should be punishment enough.
Edit: If you have a player that can cast raise dead, then they can also most likely cast plane shift. If nothign else, allow them to find a scroll or two of teleport (if you don't have an arcane caster capable of using it). That should solve the whole dilema.
I assume that you are talking about Atamahuta? If yes how exactly are you going to have the Oni of 5 storms send it to the party without breaking immersion?
I ran Jade Regent. (Stuart Haffenden was one of my players.)
If the party used the seal, the oni may or may not be able to use that to know (roughly?) where the party are. (GM discretion; oni scryers probably don't work 24 hours a day. Party may be able to confuse them by using it from an extradimensional space or similar.) If the oni know, it's reasonable for them to use long-distance teleportation magic to send in powerful enemies to the right area looking for them.
In my version of Hungry Storm, I replaced the Ogre Mage encounter (way too easy for my group) with an Atamahuta, who lured the PCs away using a fake quest (plus his shapechanging ability). By the time they got back, he was in the process of burying Ameiko alive in a magical ritual designed to turn her into an undead. He also gloated at them: "Fools! We thought you were all dead until you Used The Seal!"
Personally I'd offer him the opportunity to enter the game as a new character. I can understand not wanting to be reincarnated, but if the party doesnt have the resources to raise him the way he wants he should be willing to come in as someone new.
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Personally I'd offer him the opportunity to enter the game as a new character. I can understand not wanting to be reincarnated, but if the party doesnt have the resources to raise him the way he wants he should be willing to come in as someone new.
unless i'm wrong, they are in the middle of nowhere doing something no one else has done before. So it will be a bit odd for someone to just pop up. upgrading one of the NPCs to PC status could be done though until the resurrection can be done.
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To keep it simple, you can do one of two things:
1) Tell him to get over it
2) Change the material component from a diamond to a 5,000 gp "offering to the gods".
I can understand not wanting to play a character that you didn't design though; and if you're going to isolate them they should have abilities to raise in alternative fashions. I'd just let the offering work.
Personally I'd offer him the opportunity to enter the game as a new character. I can understand not wanting to be reincarnated, but if the party doesnt have the resources to raise him the way he wants he should be willing to come in as someone new.unless i'm wrong, they are in the middle of nowhere doing something no one else has done before. So it will be a bit odd for someone to just pop up. upgrading one of the NPCs to PC status could be done though until the resurrection can be done.
Under the circumstances, I'd be happy hand-waiving them as a brand new character that had been there all along, just keeping themselves to themselves and that nobody had ever really spoken to, if there wasn't any other reasonable way to introduce them.
Under the circumstances, I'd be happy hand-waiving them as a brand new character that had been there all along, just keeping themselves to themselves and that nobody had ever really spoken to, if there wasn't any other reasonable way to introduce them.Personally I'd offer him the opportunity to enter the game as a new character. I can understand not wanting to be reincarnated, but if the party doesnt have the resources to raise him the way he wants he should be willing to come in as someone new.unless i'm wrong, they are in the middle of nowhere doing something no one else has done before. So it will be a bit odd for someone to just pop up. upgrading one of the NPCs to PC status could be done though until the resurrection can be done.
This is probably what I would do in this case as well.
I assume that you are talking about Atamahuta? If yes how exactly are you going to have the Oni of 5 storms send it to the party without breaking immersion?I ran Jade Regent. (Stuart Haffenden was one of my players.)
** spoiler omitted **
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Under the circumstances, I'd be happy hand-waiving them as a brand new character that had been there all along, just keeping themselves to themselves and that nobody had ever really spoken to, if there wasn't any other reasonable way to introduce them.Personally I'd offer him the opportunity to enter the game as a new character. I can understand not wanting to be reincarnated, but if the party doesnt have the resources to raise him the way he wants he should be willing to come in as someone new.unless i'm wrong, they are in the middle of nowhere doing something no one else has done before. So it will be a bit odd for someone to just pop up. upgrading one of the NPCs to PC status could be done though until the resurrection can be done.
Or use this as an opportunity for one of the unusual character concepts to appear in this strange place...
The seal isnt with them it is still with the caravan. And the character is a pure min max character who adds nothing to story. I admit I can be biased towards certain characters (the ones who add to the story...even slightly). The party fears what will happen if they use the seal and they personally dont feel the character would use the seal for them.
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The seal isnt with them it is still with the caravan. And the character is a pure min max character who adds nothing to story. I admit I can be biased towards certain characters (the ones who add to the story...even slightly). The party fears what will happen if they use the seal and they personally dont feel the character would use the seal for them.
Wishes of the many outweigh the wishes of the few.
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Wishes of the many outweigh the wishes of the few.
Or the one.
As the case may be.
That may be but it is more important to keep the peace within the party.
I understand both sides but just keep in mind that you don't want to have control taken away from your game, neither does your player from his game.
Provide a way to do please everyone but provide a slight cost to prevent the PC from taking resurrection for granted. Screw logic and screw the AP, having fun is more important.
And the character is a pure min max character who adds nothing to story.
Sorry but that sounds like you are just itching to dish out some GM punishment. Obviously this player likes his character and presumably is having fun. Part of the GMs job is to make everyone have a good time.
Personally, I don't think the player's out of character suggestion to have the diamond be available as part of loot is a bad compromise. It lets the player keep playing the character he wants, it lets the party avoid using the Seal, and everyone has a good time and the game goes on.
Now having issues with raise dead etc. on a general level is a separate issue, but any special rules for this should really be discussed with all the players before, not after, PCs start dying.
At the end of the day, you are blocking this player from playing the character he wants for no real good reason. He is willing to pay the cost from treasure, all that is missing is flavor text specific type of treasure.
Your player need to embrace the story and remember that from hardship comes great heroics. To be, for examble a former asimar paladin now reincarnnated as a goblin is a great oppotunity for a great history. Tell your player to stop sulking and accept the reincarnate, or he can play Solitare on his PC monday evenings until the others decide to res him.
It may seem hare but going along with the story is important.
Edit: hard not hare.
Hm...i agree it might be punishment. Every character he plays is setup the same and is the same character in roleplay, thats a whole other thread i have already had. Without the fear of death and suggesting item drops from monsters...why am i needed? At that point i am following a script and might as well negate the requirement of the diamond. I guess I just feel if i you cant accept characters can die he might be in the wrong group.
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I deal with character death by basically removing it as a result of random die rolls. Protagonists in fiction rarely die pointlessly at the hands of minions or lesser monsters; they die in battle with the big bad, or sacrifice themselves to thwart his plans.
Therefore, characters in my games only die by choice of the player, and at dramatically appropriate moments. Protagonist death should be a moment of high drama with emotional tension, not just 'Bob lost another one'. And for death to mean something, it has to be permanent, and thus there is no way in my games for someone to return from the dead.
This also improves RP significantly, as the player knows he'll have this character for the long haul (specifically, as long as he likes), and the lack of random schmuck-deaths keeps the story going, as people don't just drop out because of a couple bad die rolls.
Bingo. Failure without having to die; if the PC chooses for his character to die in a schmuck-fight, that's his choice. But the PCs are now capable of pulling themselves up by their bootstraps and show that they don't give up.
There should be a number of caravan travelers,"we never noticed this guy before" types who can jump in. Sorry Dude who's been playing Boromir, your new character is named Faramir. Now on with the show.
I think that if the DM gives the other players in the campaign agency on this and says "hey, you guys make the call whether or not you want to risk it", well, the guy who lost the character just needs to go along to get along. Give him a bennie of some sort, high point build, better magic gear, or what have you.
Well i will be honest , i would go for the NPC, maybe it would handicap the team , but if i dont think they would die because of it , i would still pick this.
I would not complain , but hardly give up on my char either.
Hell i might make a char with a crazy backstory to ress my old char.
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I see this whole situation as table dysfunction.
The player of the dead character should be able to contribute to the conversation about what happens to his dead character. Firstly, its his character. Secondly, there's a difference between the player discussing it with the other players, and the dead character speaking from beyond the grave.
While the (perceived) danger of using the seal is a valid concern for the other characters, what sort of heroes does it make them for deciding against it? Adventurers intentionally expose themselves to danger, that's what adventuring is. So to save your friend you won't take a risk? That seems strange. It is their choice but definitely seems off to me.
There is a ready source for a replacement PC in the caravan itself. Guards, merchants, teamsters, etc could all step up to be a PC. It could even just be temporary until there is a chance to raise the dead character.
There is plenty of room here for the DM and all the PCs to cooperate. It just seems like nobody wants to do so (and not just the player of the dead PC).
@OP
If the characters don't want to use the seal on the fallen character because he was a scumbag/as****e then i can perfectly understand that. If you have a problem with this character and don't want him returned i also understand it but it would be better to tell the player so.
I assume that you are talking about Atamahuta? If yes how exactly are you going to have the Oni of 5 storms send it to the party without breaking immersion?I ran Jade Regent. (Stuart Haffenden was one of my players.)
** spoiler omitted **
First of all i applaude you for changing an encounter in order to offer a better challenge to the players, i have seen DMs that don't want to do that for no reason (fyi the "i don't have time" is a reason).
Now to matter at hand:
Although it's not a spoiler but a what if i will still put it in spoiler tags because it still might ruin someone's game
If the Oni of the 5 storms could (or would want to) do that (greater teleport) they would have done it until now either when the seal was first activated or when they assaulted the castle at book 2.
Even if for "some reason" they didn't do it then but do that now (in book 3) they aren't simply going to send one oni, they are going to send whole squads of adverseries.
So do you see why i believe that there are no real issues of using the seal to ressurect the PC? (other than not having the seal working for 1 month)
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1) Characters very, very rarely die in our campaings. When they do its almost always in some heroic fashion to a specific end, and often as not its because the player has a new chacarter concept they want to try. The game is supposed to be challenging, but at the end of the day having a beloved character fall victim to the dice is rarely fun for anyone.
2) Having said that, everyone's campaign is their own unique campaign. I don't think there's anything wrong with how the OP handled the issue, particularly since he's the GM and he knows his players.
3) Having said that, how does a group of close companions whom have travelled and fought together not use every means of their disposal not to bring back one of their comrades from the dead? I know the player in question was being called to the carpet for metagaming a bit, but what about being cavalier regarding the death of a teammate because of out-of-game knowledge?
I came into this thread thinking that there was a character you wanted to kill but just couldn't no matter how hard you tried.
On topic, I had a natural attacker build for Shattered Star and the table joked about reincarnating him after he died. I wasn't terribly amused, but I argued that since I would lose all my normal functions in combat they wouldn't want to do that since they needed my help.
Maybe the group thinks they can get away without using his character's support? Is the game that easy? There's a companion in need and they just sort of shrug?
I wouldn't want an in-game group with such apathy.
I came into this thread thinking that there was a character you wanted to kill but just couldn't no matter how hard you tried.
On topic, I had a natural attacker build for Shattered Star and the table joked about reincarnating him after he died. I wasn't terribly amused, but I argued that since I would lose all my normal functions in combat they wouldn't want to do that since they needed my help.
Maybe the group thinks they can get away without using his character's support? Is the game that easy? There's a companion in need and they just sort of shrug?
I wouldn't want an in-game group with such apathy.
OoooOoohh... Shattered Star has the best option in the world for reincarnation, one that would have made your group sorry they joked.