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Let's say you're standing next to a 5'x5' hole at the start of your turn.
Can you take a five foot step off the edge of the hole to drop down the, say, fifteen feet? Or, because this is effectively 20 feet of movement, does it not count? Or does it not count because stepping off a cliff would be considered "difficult terrain" ?
Let's say it's a 50 foot drop. Five foot step off cliff, land prone, take damage (1d6 non lethal + 4d6 lethal, assuming a successful acrobatics check). Move action to stand up. Standard action to throw the dagger you were holding. Is that legal?
if it is for sure considered difficult terrain then no you cannot, but I don't think a hole/cliff face is considered difficult terrain.
But my understanding of jumping and falling is that they both still count as your movement until you have none left. And since in your senario it is a "intended fall" it by rules follows the jump rules (outlined in acrobatics) which cannot exceed your movement, and if it does then it turns into falling:
- so you can only purposely fall a distance of up to 2 move actions in a round (which consumes both move and standard actions in your round and turns your 5 foot step into 5 feet of actual movement because you cannot 5 foot step in the same round as a move)
So in your senario:
"you 5-foot step off the cliff, but since you continue to fall it turns your 5 foot step into a full move action and you can now fall 25 additional feet (based on a 30ft movement), Since you continue to purposely fall your falling turns your movement into a double move meaning you cannot take any further action at this point. If your fall is greater than a double move (it would have to be greater than 55 ft because remember its no longer a 5 ft step) then you start to fall at at a very high rate (i believe its like 500ft per round).
I have an entirely different understanding of falling.
Open air is not "difficult terrain". It does not impede your movement in any way except maybe psychological, and since players have full control over their characters psychology (unless magically dominated/affected), then if a player wants his character to step into open space and deliberately fall, then that's what happens - not difficult at all.
Falling is instantaneous and not limited to your movement rate. If thelemonache were correct, it would mean that a human can fall down and still take an action after the fall, farther than a dwarf/halfling/gnome could fall and still have an action, and a barbarian or especially a monk could fall much farther than everyone else and still have an action. The rules just don't work that way.
You also do not fall at a slower rate within your movement rate and then fall at a very high rate after that distance. It's all instantaneous.
You fall, any distance, instantly. Technically, if you can fall and remain on your feet (you become prone if you take any lethal damage), you could continue moving whatever movement you have left. For example, a human with a ring of Feather Falling could move 20', fall down a 400' cliff, and still move his remaining 10', all as a single move action.
I know that jumping is considered part of your movement, but I have never heard that simply falling would be.
The intended fall rule simulates jumping down off of something, but if you just let yourself fall I don't think the rule would be applicable.
If you just want to take the fall and damage, sure... no problem. But if you're preparing for the leap by making the acrobatics roll, than it's not a 5 foot step, and will provoke, because you're lowering your defense in preparation for a jump.
Where is this stated?
It takes no concentration and no lowering of defense to walk 5', if you do it as a 5'Step. How is it any different to do the exact same amount of walking into empty space?
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It's all instantaneous.
You fall, any distance, instantly.
I'm fairly certain that's not true. I've read several times that you fall at about 500 feet per round, which can matter if you're really high up and want to cast fly or something on the way down.
The 500 feet calculation is based on 6 seconds of falling at an acceleration of 32ft/s^2, I believe.
I don't think there are any specific RAW for what you(Belryan) are asking. It seems reasonable to assume that since gravity is moving the PC, not the PC's own power, that this should be a lot like a bull rush and thus not provoke.
Back of the envelope physics calculations assuming similar gravity to Earth shows about 145 feet in 3 seconds, 575 in 6 seconds, neglecting air resistance. I would say a character falling further than those benchmarks has used up either a move action or a full round action with their "movement"- if they wait until after the fall to act. I'd allow acting during the fall, if desired. If two falling people want to hack at each other with full attacks that sounds awesome and I'd have to allow it.
If you just want to take the fall and damage, sure... no problem. But if you're preparing for the leap by making the acrobatics roll, than it's not a 5 foot step, and will provoke, because you're lowering your defense in preparation for a jump.Where is this stated?
It takes no concentration and no lowering of defense to walk 5', if you do it as a 5'Step. How is it any different to do the exact same amount of walking into empty space?
If you use acrobatics to move, it costs twice the movement, so it's no longer simply a 5' step. It's taking 10' of movement to go 5'. If that starting square is threatened, leaving it draws an AoO per the norm.
Now, there's nothing stopping you from also using acrobatics to avoid an AoO from someone who's threatening you before you move as well.
1) Open air is the exact opposite of difficult terrain. I mean how much easier could it get than something that pulls you through it at mach 5?
2) I am all for anything that promotes adventurers falling to their deaths.
I normally rule falling speed as happening off your turn, completing a full round's falling distance just before your turn, since falling speed is expressed in rounds and that's when 1 round duration effects resolve. This isn't 'instant', falling speed is something like 500' for first round, 1000' for subsequent rounds - the rules frustratingly don't state that outright, but they indirectly support it by 500' being the distance you need to fall to cast a non-Immediate Action spell, the numbers are basically rounding from real-world numbers: link.
If you want to take another action during or after the fall (in the same, current round), then you should use your normal speed as if you are jumping (although one could jump off a cliff, 30' down use a Standard Action, and you still end up in mid-air, so you continue falling the remainder of falling distance (minus 'jump' distance) just before your next turn. This is because the rules for Move/Standard Actions are meant to determine how far you can move and still take a Standard Action on your turn, and Falling should not exceed that limit. You still can get 'extra movement' if you do the Fall AFTER all actions you want to take... e.g. Full Attack->5' Step->Fall Off Cliff.
If you use acrobatics to move, it costs twice the movement, so it's no longer simply a 5' step. It's taking 10' of movement to go 5'. If that starting square is threatened, leaving it draws an AoO per the norm.If you just want to take the fall and damage, sure... no problem. But if you're preparing for the leap by making the acrobatics roll, than it's not a 5 foot step, and will provoke, because you're lowering your defense in preparation for a jump.Where is this stated?
It takes no concentration and no lowering of defense to walk 5', if you do it as a 5'Step. How is it any different to do the exact same amount of walking into empty space?
The use of Acrobatics to soften a fall is not the same as using Acrobatics to avoid AoOs (Tumbling), only the latter increases movement costs. You can make a separate Acrobatic check to Tumble/avoid AoOs if you wish, doubling the movement costs, precluding 5' steps... unless you take the higher penalty to move at full speed (I believe some Class Options negate that). Note that 'movement' for Tumbling is YOUR movement, so you can't do Tumbling while simply 'Falling', you must be using your own movement speed alotment (otherwise the movement cost doubling is pointless).
But whether you Tumble or don't Tumble, making the Acrobatics check to Soften a Fall/not land Prone is something different that doesn't involve doubling movement distance.
This topic needs to get an official FAQ, it's too commonly asked here and the standard rules don't cover this mechanic well enough even though it's a standard occurence in the game.
There are also some related topics that need to get their FAQ button hit:
If you just want to take the fall and damage, sure... no problem. But if you're preparing for the leap by making the acrobatics roll, than it's not a 5 foot step, and will provoke, because you're lowering your defense in preparation for a jump.Where is this stated?
It takes no concentration and no lowering of defense to walk 5', if you do it as a 5'Step. How is it any different to do the exact same amount of walking into empty space?
If you use acrobatics to move, it costs twice the movement, so it's no longer simply a 5' step. It's taking 10' of movement to go 5'. If that starting square is threatened, leaving it draws an AoO per the norm.
Now, there's nothing stopping you from also using acrobatics to avoid an AoO from someone who's threatening you before you move as well.
These two acrobatics rolls are two different things, so it makes no sense and also is not RAW for you to apply movement rules for one of these kinds of checks to all of them.
1) Acrobatics to avoid an AoO involves moving out of a threatened square while ducking, dodging, weaving, parrying, diving, rolling, tumbling, and/or skirting around the very edge of the squares, all to try to prevent enemies from taking free shots at you while you move. That's a lot of physical activity all taken to avoid AoOs.
2) Acrobatics to land on your feet from a fall involves nothing other than keeping yourself feet-down during the fall (including controlling the moment you begin falling, such as stepping off a cliff rather than tumbling off of it head first) and also stabilizing yourself when you land - no extra time or movement needed. At most, we're talking a step to begin the fall, certainly no more effort than a 5'Step would require.
While there is some good math to support that 500' is about the maximum you can fall in a single round, I don't think that's in the Core Rulebook.
By RAW, it doesn't matter if you fall 10 feet or 10,000 feet. It's not movement, it doesn't take actions, and no time frame is given (other than establishing that falls greater than 500 feet take long enough for you to cast a normal standard-round spell), so it's instantaneous.
Of course, that's ridiculous. A 10,000 foot fall takes some time, clearly more than a 6-second round. Any GM is going to step in and use some common sense to figure out how long it takes to fall very long distances.
So when I said "falling is instantaneous", here is the longer version of what I really meant:
The maximum damage you can take from falling is 20d6, regardless of whether it's 210 feet or 20,010 feet. All falls from within the 210 feet necessary to get to the maximum damage value (or perhaps within the 500 feet spellcasting limitation) are essentially instantaneous. Falls from greater heights probably should take some GM adjudication to figure out how long they take.
None of which is applicable to the OP's 15' drop, but it may be useful to others.
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I can't help but see this as a controlled jump that is taken as part of movement (ie not a 5' step). It is more natural for a person to take a quick glance over the edge to see how far down it is, pick a spot to land, and then jump.
As a GM, I would house rule it and at least 'charge' the character half of their movement for the move action if they successfully use their acrobatics to avoid the lethal damage when jumping down. If they fall prone, the entire move action is used as they land on their butt and nurse their wounds (and pride) for a moment.
Also, movement is for moving on land. The moment they step into the air, they are not using their movement type, using a 5' step does not feel right in that sense.
It's an interesting situation that does come up every so often but I think there are enough rules to cover it.
You are charging them half or all of their move speed [based on movement type] ...but "they are not using their movement type"?
WTF!?
How does stepping from a cliff into the air not qualify for 5' step using land speed, but using land speed to jump into air is A-OK?
To clarify my previous post, if somebody wants to 5' step and then fall off the cliff 'for free' (e.g. after Full Attacking),
then the fall doesn't resolve until just before their next turn, so adjacent enemies can attack them in their current (post 5' step) position.
If they want to spend a Move Action to Jump down, they can get out of retaliation range quicker,
but that requires dedicating their actions towards that end, precluding a Full Attack before they jump/fall.
Either approach is compatable with 'intentionally' falling, and using Acrobatics to soften the fall.
(/remain standing if that means you don't suffer lethal falling damage)
Hmmm... yeah I don't see any problem with it.
According to the falling rules you need to fall 500ft to be able to cast a spell while falling, so that may be the intended limit for fall distance in a round.
On an earth sized planet you fall at 9.81ms^2 so average speed of (0+9.81*6)/2 = 29.43ms
Over 6 seconds, a distance traveled Rate*Time=Distance
Sooo... 176.58 meters
Or 579.33 feet
So I think this is pretty much where they get their number from.
Actions are intended to represent time.
Case 1: If you five foot step off the edge at the end of your turn, after you used your move and standard action, then you (until your next turn) remain in the air at that point.
Don't forget that all actions between characters in a round take place at the same time in reality.
Case 2: If you five foot step off the edge at the start of your turn, before you use your move and standard action, then you have to also use your move action as it counts as a move.
So you have case 1 where you move 5 feet, and case 2 where you move 5 feet and then fall. Case 1 just takes a five foot step while case 2 takes your five foot step and move action.
Actions are intended to represent time.
Fine, but some things can happen to me when it's not my turn:
Getting attacked, taking damage, getting tripped, being paralyzed, being surprised, getting incinerated by a fireball, etc.
And sometimes falling.
Case 1: If you five foot step off the edge at the end of your turn, after you used your move and standard action, then you (until your next turn) remain in the air at that point.
Don't forget that all actions between characters in a round take place at the same time in reality.
Fine, I'll hover until the my next turn. Sort of like Wiley Coyote running off the cliff, maybe I won't fall until I look down.
Just kidding. I get your point. You want everyone in the battle to be able to run up and hit me, after I step off the cliff, before I fall out of their reach, because everything is simultaneous and I have not taken any move action to fall yet. See below.
Case 2: If you five foot step off the edge at the start of your turn, before you use your move and standard action, then you have to also use your move action as it counts as a move.
So you have case 1 where you move 5 feet, and case 2 where you move 5 feet and then fall. Case 1 just takes a five foot step while case 2 takes your five foot step and move action.
So your contention is that falling uses my move action. If I fall at the very end of my turn with no move action left, then I wait til next turn to use my move action then. I suppose you'll also say that I MUST use my move action for this (no option, say, to full attack and keep hovering til the following round - I agree, by the way).
You justify all this by saying that combat is simultaneous so it's OK for me to wait in mid-air until my next turn because, really, it's all happening at once anyway.
But if that it true, then no spellcaster would EVER get off a spell in combat. If it really is that simultaneous, then any damage he takes any time in the round should disrupt any spell he casts that round.
Or to put that another way, if the extremely short time it takes me to fall 15' takes so long that everyone else can take their simultaneous action before I can complete the fall, then I suggest that the significantly longer time it takes to cast a fireball should also take so long that everyone else can take their simultaneous action before I can complete the casting of the spell.
Since this is clearly not the case, I contend that you take an action, resolve the consequences immediately, and then finish your turn, with the only exceptions being Readied actions and AoOs.
I further contend that falling is instantaneous (except as noted above for extremely long falls that deal the maximum 20d6 damage), so if you 5'Step off a 15' cliff at any time in your turn, you resolve those consequences immediately, then finish your turn or end your turn if that was the last action of your turn.
I would count it as movement if it was done on purpose.
Let's say you're standing next to a 5'x5' hole at the start of your turn.
Can you take a five foot step off the edge of the hole to drop down the, say, fifteen feet? Or, because this is effectively 20 feet of movement, does it not count? Or does it not count because stepping off a cliff would be considered "difficult terrain" ?
Let's say it's a 50 foot drop. Five foot step off cliff, land prone, take damage (1d6 non lethal + 4d6 lethal, assuming a successful acrobatics check). Move action to stand up. Standard action to throw the dagger you were holding. Is that legal?
1. It's only five feet of movement. The rest of the movement is not your action; it's physics' action. A human can certainly 5-foot step off a ledge, the same as a human could take a move action to move off of a cliff twenty-five feet away.
2. Technically legal. But a GM is free to adjudicate how much time passes while you are falling, and this may use up some of your movement. A 50 foot fall takes a little under two seconds, and the landing would not be something he could just spring back to his feet from in a flash, so I'd probably disallow a subsequent move action (though a simultaneous move action, such as drawing that dagger, would be fine).
Alternately, I might improvise and delay the character's initiative count a bit (say, -3), delaying the remainder of the character's turn but allowing the rest of the actions. I'm not sure that would make much sense in some other situations, but, well, eh. It's something to think about since the PF rules don't really handle falling time well.