Take a 5th level swashbuckling fighter-type. Match him against a dozen 1st level warriors. See if he comes out without a scratch. That handles the Alcade’s militia. Now, the Cardinal’s guards were reckoned as highly skilled experienced veterans.The Cardinal's guards were "skilled experienced veterans" compared to the common folk. i.e.: they were 2nd level warriors instead of 2nd level commoners/experts. Which means each one of them is CR 1/2, IIRC.
Do you think Zorro or d'Artangnan (who you claim are Mythichal level 20+ Characters) could easily defeat a Dire Lion (CR 5), a Dire Bear (Cr 7) T-Rex (CR 9), a Ancient Red Dragon (CR 19) or a freaking Balor (CR 20)?
Because those are easy fights for Epic Mythical characters. According to you, Zorro could defeat half a dozen T-Rex at the same time.
I suggest you read this article. It's very well written and it explains what low-level numbers actually mean.
That article is actually funny. You can't compare reality to D&D that way. Making Einstein a 5th level expert, means that my 12th fighter with an 8 INT can have a much higher Physics roll than a fifth level Einstein. (12 ranks+3 for class skill, -1 INT, and +6 Skill focus=20) vs (5+3+5+3=16). Meaning my dumb fighter is a better physicist than Einstein.
I wouldn't say that Zorro or d'Artagnan are Mythic/Epic, but they are high level characters (11th+). They are getting multiple attacks per round, stabbing more than one person per their attacks.
I would certainly pit either of them against a Dire Lion, Dire Bear or T-Rex solo. I wouldn't pit them against the Red Dragon, I would give the Musketeers a chance against the Balor (assuming they had appropriate weapons to damage the Balor).
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Yeah that article is bullpucky. But in any case, a 5th level fighter would not be able to defeat a dozen level 1 warriors without even taking a hit.Why not? That's what being 4 levels beyond the other guys means. A creature with CR = APL -4 is a pathetic challenge and can barely touch the PCs. The rules reflect that.
Odds are good that one of those 12 level one warriors is going to roll high enough to hit a 5th level character. Odds are pretty good over the several rounds that fight will last that one or more will roll a 20.
Zorro, being in a non-magic universe, would never encounter a Balor.That makes no difference. The power scale is still the same. Even if this argument made sense, I could simply say "Zorro being in a non-magical universe would never go beyond 5th level". If my 18th level Fighter is plane-shifted into Zorro's universe, does he suddenly grow weaker despite having the exact same attributes, gear and abilities?
And what about lions, they're CR 3. Is Zorro capable of easily defeating half a dozen Lions? I don't think so. He might be capable of defeating 1, maybe 2 of them... But a whole pack? That doesn't seem to fit the power scale of his stories.
Alley-oop routinely defeated dinos. As did Tor, and others. Batman even fought a few.But did they defeat them as easily a Mythical high-level character would? Batman wouldn't beat a T-Rex by fighting it in melee combat, he'd probably use his really advanced technology and all-but-infinite WBL to throw a bomb or something, which is basically the same as casting a high level spell. And Batman was really lucky when he rolled his attributes.
Zorro may well fall short of Epic, but he's Mythic and high level.Nah, still think he's 4th... Maybe 5th level. It coincides with what the rules say. The article's analysis of what attribute and skill checks can do is very done and makes perfect sense.
Check my previous post about Einstein and his being level 5.
An expert blacksmith would not be making pots and pans (actually a new blacksmith wouldn't be making them either, a tinsmith or other smith would be). An expert blacksmith is going to be making the difficult stuff, plowshares and other things with sharp edges and curved surfaces, things with moving parts, etc. That is why he is the expert. The apprentices and assistants are making the simple stuff.
That article is actually funny. You can't compare reality to D&D that way. Making Einstein a 5th level expert, means that my 12th fighter with an 8 INT can have a much higher Physics roll than a fifth level Einstein. (12 ranks+3 for class skill, -1 INT, and +6 Skill focus=20) vs (5+3+5+3=16). Meaning my dumb fighter is a better physicist than Einstein.
That makes perfect sense. Your Fighter may not be as smart as Einstein, but he compensates for that with inhuman level of dedication and study. Skill ranks count just as much as attribute modifiers, after all. It's similar to how a guy with Str 16 and BAB +4 has just as much accuracy as a guy with Str 12 and BAB +6. The guy with lower Str has to compensate for it with more training. If Einstein lived in a fantasy world and reached the same level as your dumb Fighter, he'd still be the superior physicist.
Just like if you're smarter than me, but I spent half my life studying engineering while you dedicate yourself to history, chances are I'd be a much better engineer than you, despite your superior intellect.
I wouldn't say that Zorro or d'Artagnan are Mythic/Epic, but they are high level characters (11th+). They are getting multiple attacks per round, stabbing more than one person per their attacks.
Yeah, iterative attacks don't work very well (then again, neither does in-combat mobility). I'd say they have Combat Reflexes and make AoO most of the time.
I would certainly pit either of them against a Dire Lion, Dire Bear or T-Rex solo. I wouldn't pit them against the Red Dragon, I would give the Musketeers a chance against the Balor (assuming they had appropriate weapons to damage the Balor).
I don't think either of them would survive an straight-forward confrontation against 3~4 lions. And a Balor would completely obliterate the 3 musketeers (assuming it'd even bother to give them any attention).
Odds are good that one of those 12 level one warriors is going to roll high enough to hit a 5th level character. Odds are pretty good over the several rounds that fight will last that one or more will roll a 20.
Yup, but they wouldn't do enough damage to defeat the 5th level guy. HP is not just about actual wounds and physical health, after all. It's about stamina, morale and just plain luck. It wasn't unusual to see a few guards manage to cause minor wounds to Zorro or force him to retreat, (i.e.: cause hp damage), but they very rarely managed to cause significant wounds (i.e.: bring him to low hp).
An expert blacksmith is going to be making the difficult stuff, plowshares and other things with sharp edges and curved surfaces, things with moving parts, etc. That is why he is the expert. The apprentices and assistants are making the simple stuff.
And that expert Blacksmith could be doing all of that by 4th or 5th level. Masterwork items are not that difficult to create.
The article is not perfect, of course, but it's much closer to the rules than saying Zorro is capable of defeating a couple T-Rexes in a frontal assault.
And remember: Protagonists also have traits and use elite array of ability scores, while most opponents have no traits and use NPC array of attribute score. Those are significant advantages to the hero of the story.
Hell, even a 1st level Fighter is closer to a action hero in a pseudo-realistic movie than a real person.
But I digress... This is an interesting discussion, but I'd rather not derail the thread even more.
That article is actually funny. You can't compare reality to D&D that way. Making Einstein a 5th level expert, means that my 12th fighter with an 8 INT can have a much higher Physics roll than a fifth level Einstein. (12 ranks+3 for class skill, -1 INT, and +6 Skill focus=20) vs (5+3+5+3=16). Meaning my dumb fighter is a better physicist than Einstein.That makes perfect sense. Your Fighter may not be as smart as Einstein, but he compensates for that with inhuman level of dedication and study. Skill ranks count just as much as attribute modifiers, after all. It's similar to how a guy with Str 16 and BAB +4 has just as much accuracy as a guy with Str 12 and BAB +6. The guy with lower Str has to compensate for it with more training. If Einstein lived in a fantasy world and reached the same level as your dumb Fighter, he'd still be the superior physicist.
Just like if you're smarter than me, but I spent half my life studying engineering while you dedicate yourself to history, chances are I'd be a much better engineer than you, despite your superior intellect.
I wouldn't say that Zorro or d'Artagnan are Mythic/Epic, but they are high level characters (11th+). They are getting multiple attacks per round, stabbing more than one person per their attacks.Yeah, iterative attacks don't work very well (then again, neither does in-combat mobility). I'd say they have Combat Reflexes and make AoO most of the time.
I would certainly pit either of them against a Dire Lion, Dire Bear or T-Rex solo. I wouldn't pit them against the Red Dragon, I would give the Musketeers a chance against the Balor (assuming they had appropriate weapons to damage the Balor).I don't think either of them would survive an straight-forward confrontation against 3~4 lions. And a Balor would completely obliterate the 3 musketeers (assuming it'd even bother to give them any attention).
You sir have forgotten that the 3 musketeers are actually 4 d'Artagnan, Porthos, Aramis, and Ahtos. And no they wouldn't walk over them, but the I would give the four of the a good shot at it. Remember that d'Artagnon is the youngest and least experienced of the group.
ou sir have forgotten that the 3 musketeers are actually 4 d'Artagnan, Porthos, Aramis, and Ahtos. And no they wouldn't walk over them, but the I would give the four of them a good shot at it. Remember that d'Artagnon is the youngest and least experienced of the group.
Sorry, I don't understand what creature you're refering to. Are you saying d'artangnan (or any other musketeer) would be able to fight a whole pack of lions? Or that the Balor wouldn't simply oblitare the four of them?
Either way, I disagree. That simply doesn't fit the scale of power and realism despicted in their stories.Zorro, for example, I think he would make a single attack (and possibly one-shot his opponent, of it's a mook), then use Acrobatics to move without Povoking AoO. That means, he is unlikely to be targeted by more than 2 or 3 attacks each round, despite the fact that he's fighting a dozen enemies (all of them mooks).
Sadly, Pathfinder's extremely long feat chains (especially for TWF and combat maneuvers) hinders the game's ability of reflecting these characters.
I'd build Zorro as a 4th level Rogue. Maybe Monk 1/Rogue 4 or something like that.
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Yeah that article is bullpucky. But in any case, a 5th level fighter would not be able to defeat a dozen level 1 warriors without even taking a hit.Why not? That's what being 4 levels beyond the other guys means. A creature with CR = APL -4 is a pathetic challenge and can barely touch the PCs. The rules reflect that.Nah, still think he's 4th... Maybe 5th level. It coincides with what the rules say.
“pathetic challenge and can barely touch the PCs” or not, even a 5th level Swashbuckler simply can’t defeat a dozen 1st level warriors without getting hit even once, which Zorro routinely did. Zorro also routinely jumped into the saddle of a horse, which is a DC20 check, so to make that fail on a one, would make him +18. Class skill+3 and dex+4 means he needs 11 ranks, which calls for 11th level at least. Ect.
That article is actually funny. You can't compare reality to D&D that way. Making Einstein a 5th level expert, means that my 12th fighter with an 8 INT can have a much higher Physics roll than a fifth level Einstein. (12 ranks+3 for class skill, -1 INT, and +6 Skill focus=20) vs (5+3+5+3=16). Meaning my dumb fighter is a better physicist than Einstein.
If your 8 Int fighter put ranks and a feat into a Physics skill, I'd say that would pretty much make him an idiot savant, and thus an exception, not the rule.
“pathetic challenge and can barely touch the PCs” or not, even a 5th level Swashbuckler simply can’t defeat a dozen 1st level warriors without getting hit even once, which Zorro routinely did.Yeah that article is bullpucky. But in any case, a 5th level fighter would not be able to defeat a dozen level 1 warriors without even taking a hit.Why not? That's what being 4 levels beyond the other guys means. A creature with CR = APL -4 is a pathetic challenge and can barely touch the PCs. The rules reflect that.Nah, still think he's 4th... Maybe 5th level. It coincides with what the rules say.
A 5th level character with PC class can very well defeat a dozen 1st level warriors. Especially considering he has a considerably higher attribute array and probably a couple traits too. Even more so for a Character who moves all the time, like Zorro did, to avoid being flanked and effectively deny his opponents the chance to attack.
And as I said before, hp is not just about health and actual wounds. The character can lower Zorro's stamina and/or morale, or simply make him spend all his "luck". That means they could cause hp damage without ever drawing blood.
Zorro also routinely jumped into the saddle of a horse, which is a DC20 check, so to make that fail on a one, would make him +18. Class skill+3 and dex+4 means he needs 11 ranks, which calls for 11th level at least. Ect.
The DC for hopping over stuff is not the same one for jumping straight up.
4 Dex + 4 skill ranks + 3 class skill is a +11. he'd usually have a a running start too, so that's another +4, for a total of +15. More than enough to make the check all the time.
Being 11th level means Zorro could take 10 for a +30 Acrobatics check and jump 7ft straight up from an standing position. I don't remember him doing that.
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'Swashbuckling' combat is a fight of MISSED attacks and counter attacks up until the point that one of the combatants makes a mistake, then the fight is over. D&D and PFS are about doing hitpoints of damage with successful attacks, not avoiding those attacks all together.
Remove the word "MISSED" and replace it with "minor wounds and fatigue" and you've basically described what hit points have represented in D&D since Gygax wrote the rulebook.
The hit point system of D&D was supposed to mimic the climactic duel between Erol Flynn and Basil Rathbone in The Adventures of Robin Hood (1938). Each participant dodging, weaving, and delivering minor injuries to each other until finally someone lands the final blow (the opponent falls below 0 hit points).
A fighter with 10 hit points who suffers 1 point of damage would be in roughly the same shape as a higher level fighter with 100 hit points who just suffered 10 points of damage. In both cases, the fighter would have parried/turned aside/or otherwise avoided any serious injury from the attack by expending minor amounts of effort. The difference is that had the attacks been reversed, the 100 hp fighter would have easily turned aside the 1hp attack with little noticeable effort, while the 10hp fighter wouldn't have had the skill/strength/stamina to stop the 10hp attack. The 100hp fighter simply has more skill, luck, and a name higher up in the movie credits.
The HP system is supposed to be an abstraction. It doesn't always work that way (poisonous attacks, for example, would affect someone no matter how many hit points they lost), at least not cleanly, but swashbuckling combat was quite literally the original intent of D&D's damage system.
I'm on my phone, so I can't put in links easily, but try googling "hit points represent" and "Errol Flynn". There have been a few articles written on the history of D&D that cover it.
“pathetic challenge and can barely touch the PCs” or not, even a 5th level Swashbuckler simply can’t defeat a dozen 1st level warriors without getting hit even once, which Zorro routinely did.Yeah that article is bullpucky. But in any case, a 5th level fighter would not be able to defeat a dozen level 1 warriors without even taking a hit.Why not? That's what being 4 levels beyond the other guys means. A creature with CR = APL -4 is a pathetic challenge and can barely touch the PCs. The rules reflect that.Nah, still think he's 4th... Maybe 5th level. It coincides with what the rules say.A 5th level character with PC class can very well defeat a dozen 1st level warriors. Especially considering he has a considerably higher attribute array and probably a couple traits too.
And as I said before, hp is not just about health and actual wounds. The character can lower Zorro's stamina and/or morale, or simply make him spend all his "luck". That means they could cause hp damage without ever drawing blood.Zorro also routinely jumped into the saddle of a horse, which is a DC20 check, so to make that fail on a one, would make him +18. Class skill+3 and dex+4 means he needs 11 ranks, which calls for 11th level at least. Ect.The DC for hopping over stuff is not the same one for jumping straight up.
4 Dex + 4 skill ranks + 3 class skill is a +11. he'd usually have a a running start too, so that's another +4, for a total of +15. More than enough to make the check all the time.
Being 11th level means Zorro could take 10 for a +30 Acrobatics check and jump 7ft straight up from an standing position. I don't remember him doing that.
No, if you get tagged by a weapon for anything but non-lethal damage, then that’s a wound. It requires healing or days of rest. Zorro routinely walked out of those battles without even a scratch. Nary a drop of blood.
It’s true that Gygax in a article had a thing about half your HP being exhaustion, etc and you didn’t really take ‘damage’ until you were down half you HP, but that’s not how PF works. Take only ONE single HP of real damage and you are wounded, it’s a cut, etc. So, you’re just making stuff up to support your idea. That’s simply not how the pathfinder rules work.
Not "hopping over' it's a DC 20 ride check to mount a horse as a free action.
Math is wrong on jumping also. Dex +4, +3 class skill, plus 11 ranks is +18. Taking ten makes it 28. DC for a standing jump of 7 feet is 56. With Zorro's DC 28 standing jump he could make hops of 3 feet, or over the swing of a mook's sword, which Zorro did routinely. A +18 also means that running long jumps of 20' are easy- which Zorro did, from building to building.
"High Jump Acrobatics DC
1 foot 4
2 feet 8
3 feet 12
4 feet 16
Greater than 4 feet +4 per foot
These DCs double if you do not have at least 10 feet of space to get a running start. "
16+4+4+4= 28X2= 56. That would require a PC in the 30th level range.
Ah, so HP damage is always actual wounds, huh? If so, that means Zorro, the 20th level mythical character can survive 20 arrow/bullet wounds without problem? I mean, he has at least a d8 HD and a nice con modifier after all. On average, he is able to easily survive being shot by a dozen shotguns at the same time. Hell, he can easily survive a bite attack from a T-Rex (4d6+22), even when it deals max damage!
He didn't seem that resilient.
Look at the PFSRD's table for the Acrobatics DC of high jumps. I don't remember seeing Zorro leaping 7ft in the air. Running start or not.
Really, just look at the CR or real-world creatures and weapon damage. You're basically saying Zorro could kill 20 bears without breaking a sweat!
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As I said, Zorro is Mythic, not Epic and around 11th level.
You’re still dodging the 5th level fighter vs 12 mooks. And you have conviently forgot you got the math completely wrong on the standing jump just last post. Not even an “oops”?
I do, I saw him leap that high and far several times. I watched every single episode of the Disney show, and read the books, and all the films, including Zorro the Gay Blade. Great film.
Zorro fought the Alcade's militia, not bears.
ou sir have forgotten that the 3 musketeers are actually 4 d'Artagnan, Porthos, Aramis, and Ahtos. And no they wouldn't walk over them, but the I would give the four of them a good shot at it. Remember that d'Artagnon is the youngest and least experienced of the group.Sorry, I don't understand what creature you're refering to. Are you saying d'artangnan (or any other musketeer) would be able to fight a whole pack of lions? Or that the Balor wouldn't simply oblitare the four of them?
Either way, I disagree. That simply doesn't fit the scale of power and realism despicted in their stories.Zorro, for example, I think he would make a single attack (and possibly one-shot his opponent, of it's a mook), then use Acrobatics to move without Povoking AoO. That means, he is unlikely to be targeted by more than 2 or 3 attacks each round, despite the fact that he's fighting a dozen enemies (all of them mooks).
Sadly, Pathfinder's extremely long feat chains (especially for TWF and combat maneuvers) hinders the game's ability of reflecting these characters.
I'd build Zorro as a 4th level Rogue. Maybe Monk 1/Rogue 4 or something like that.
Where did the pack of lions come from? Your post up there listed single opponents.
Do you think Zorro or d'Artangnan (who you claim are Mythichal level 20+ Characters) could easily defeat a Dire Lion (CR 5), a Dire Bear (Cr 7) T-Rex (CR 9), a Ancient Red Dragon (CR 19) or a freaking Balor (CR 20)?
No where do I see a pack of lions, or a group of bears, just singular. And as I have stated, I put them around 11th level, not 20+.
As I said, Zorro is Mythic, not Epic and around 11th level.
So before Mythic rules, it was impossible to build Zorro? Really? That's one of the reasons I dislike the Mythic rules. Not only they are a pointless inflation of power, they also give the false impression that high level characters are just commoner+.
Like it or not, D&D 3.5 and PF have a power scale than spams from "gritty & realistic" to "wuxia and beyond", including every thing inbetween. That's a good thing, it allows every player to play at whatever level of "gritness" they want and gives us the possibility of going from average human to epic demi-gods. Those who don't like one power level or another can simply not play it.
You’re still dodging the 5th level fighter vs 12 mooks.
I already answered that. But you're claiming every hp lost is a physical wound, when it has never been so. HP is a representation of health, morale and luck. A bad representation. BTW. Which is why a character down to 1 hp fights just as well as if he had 100hp.
Now, speaking of dodging question, answer me... How can Zorro withstand half a dozen shots from magical shotguns and walk away from it? Or how he can survive being bit by a T-Rex.
And you have conviently forgot you got the math completely wrong on the standing jump just last post. Not even an “oops”?
You made the same mistake. The correct number is a 19, thanks to attribute increases. Not a significant difference, anyway.
I watched every single episode of the Disney show, and read the books, and all the films, including Zorro the Gay Blade. Great film.
That explains why you want to see a him as some sort of high-level demi-god. Nostalgia.
Zorro fought the Alcade's militia, not bears.
And...? Are the militians capable of fighting bears? Is Zorro truly capable of defeating a T-Rex on a frontal assault? Can he beat 2~3 Tigers without any difficulty? I don't think so.
No where do I see a pack of lions, or a group of bears, just singular. And as I have stated, I put them around 11th level, not 20+.
Lions are CR 3. Dire lions are CR 5, IIRC. How many of those make a CR 10 encounter, which would be equivalent to a 11th level character's CR (or CR 9, if he doesn't have level appropriate gear).
Now, I dunno how many lions a pack usually has (actually, I don't even think "pack" is the right word, but that's not the point), so it might be more than the necessary number for them to reach the appropriate CR. It's just an expression.
Pride of lions
That article is actually funny. You can't compare reality to D&D that way. Making Einstein a 5th level expert, means that my 12th fighter with an 8 INT can have a much higher Physics roll than a fifth level Einstein. (12 ranks+3 for class skill, -1 INT, and +6 Skill focus=20) vs (5+3+5+3=16). Meaning my dumb fighter is a better physicist than Einstein.That makes perfect sense. Your Fighter may not be as smart as Einstein, but he compensates for that with inhuman level of dedication and study. Skill ranks count just as much as attribute modifiers, after all. It's similar to how a guy with Str 16 and BAB +4 has just as much accuracy as a guy with Str 12 and BAB +6. The guy with lower Str has to compensate for it with more training. If Einstein lived in a fantasy world and reached the same level as your dumb Fighter, he'd still be the superior physicist.
Just like if you're smarter than me, but I spent half my life studying engineering while you dedicate yourself to history, chances are I'd be a much better engineer than you, despite your superior intellect.
Considering that you can literally level from level one to sixteen in two months by beating up monsters, given the right campaign (like at least one Paizo AP I GM'ed), that makes no sense at all.
Give it up, Lemmy - it's Chinatown.
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Pride of lions
Ah, that's right! Thanks!
Considering that you can literally level from level one to sixteen in two months by beating up monsters, given the right campaign (like at least one Paizo AP I GM'ed), that makes no sense at all.
By that logic, you can become a epic level warrior in a couple weeks. Einstein wouldn't reach 6th level world where he exists is a E5 world.
Give it up, Lemmy - it's Chinatown.
You know, I'll follow your advice not only because it's a good one, but because you quoted one of my favorite movies. :)
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For my own and very personal experience and expectations, I've complete given up on the idea that D&D or by extension Pathfinder emulating any sort of reality at all, be that our very real reality or literary works based in reality.
If I was to compare Pathfinders style of "reality" to any other genre it would be comic book, especially super hero comic, which it reasonable matches up with. The next comparable genre would be the big blockbuster Hollywood action movie, which it has some resemblance to. You see in pathfinder the heroes can do whatever is required of them to overcome the threat, as the threat grows so do the heroes. In real life there is always the chance for a normal mortal human being to kill another mortal human, even if the person he is trying to kill is highly trained in martial arts for instance. However, if a normal person were to suddenly face a giant near indestructible alien robot made by a species with technology about 50,000 years more advanced then ours. Then he really doesn't stand a chance.
It's all a matter of expectations, the new swashbuckler is not going to give you Zorro or the Three Musketeers, but what it will give you is the super hero equivalent of Zorro or the three musketeers. This one can deal with Dragons, Giants, Daemons and Cthulhu, the other can't.
It's all a matter of expectations, the new swashbuckler is not going to give you Zorro or the Three Musketeers, but what it will give you is the super hero equivalent of Zorro or the three musketeers. This one can deal with Dragons, Giants, Daemons and Cthulhu, the other can't.
So... Spider-Man with a rapier??? Awesome!!!
Seriously, though. I honestly hope you're right. I've been waiting for a good Swashbuckler class for quite a while now.
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It's all a matter of expectations, the new swashbuckler is not going to give you Zorro or the Three Musketeers, but what it will give you is the super hero equivalent of Zorro or the three musketeers. This one can deal with Dragons, Giants, Daemons and Cthulhu, the other can't.So... Spider-Man with a rapier??? Awesome!!!
Seriously, though. I honestly hope you're right. I've been waiting for a good Swashbuckler class for quite a while now.
Yep, that's what I'm trying to say. Hey, it's just not going to meet everyone's expectations,but if you like the idea of Spiderman with a rapier, then you'll love the swashbuckler.
Pride of lions
I approve.