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I'm making a ranger and he will be an archer so I was wondering about what materials a bow can be made of in pfs. Does a bow have to be limited to wood or can you use ivory, bone, or metals? I'm looking for something with a lot of hit points and hardness incase sunder hits my bow and was wondering if the bow has to be limited to being made from wood.
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The only special material suitable for bows from the CRB is darkwood, which improves on normal wood only in that it lowers its weight. Bone (and ivory) are detailed in Ultimate Combat, but, unfortunately, cannot be used to make bows (and would only make them inferior if you could).
The two materials that can actually help you are greenwood and whipwood (from Ultimate Equipment and the Advanced Race Guide, respectively). Greenwood adds no hit points or hardness, but allows your bow to take 1/4 damge from fire and recover hit points at a rate of 1 per hour when dampened and put on fertile soil. Whipwood, meanwhile, gives your bow 5 extra hit points and bumps to DC to sunder it by 2.
EDIT: By the time you get around to making your bow magic, consider adding the Impervious quality (from Ultimate Equipment) for more hit points and hardness if you're still worrying about sunder.
A Composite bow is made from different materials like wood and metal, so that type of bow might actually have better hardness and hp (and I think it should). But I haven't checked wether or not it has.
I would think it would be possible to make a darkwood bow weighing the same as a regular bow thereby doubling the amount of wood used and doubling hp at least.
But the most obvious way to do this is by enchanting the bow as the bonus will add to hardness if I am not mistaken.
A Composite bow is made from different materials like wood and metal, ..
There is no RAW that supports this and i think only modern bows are made with metal (parts).
A Composite bow is made from different materials like wood and metal, ..There is no RAW that supports this and I think only modern bows are made with metal (parts).
I have checked the RAW on equipment chapter and did indeed notice that the listing of the composite bow does not describe the materials it's made of. However Composite means several types bundled together and what other material would you put in the bow??? No synthetic material like plastics were available then, so apart from wood ,which is the standard material for bows (longbow description), what other material can you add?????
Balistae and catapults used metal parts in their bows, so why shouldn't composite bows do so?And there has been discussion about adding the composite bow to the list of weapons as you are right in stating that the composite bow is a modern bow. And history isn't sure when bows were made composite for the first time.
In PFS the only option is wood.
I disagree. The normal bow is made of wood, but the description of the composite bow does not say what it's made of. This tells us that a composite bow could be made of materials other then wood as well. It doesn't has to, but it might.
Bone, actually.
The composite is horn and wood, with sinew. They laminated the stuff.
Yes, I forgot about bone, but is bone usefull as bow material, because I would expect bone to be too brittle.
On the upside, the composite construction combined with the fact that they were almost always recurves gave higher draw-weights for the size. So you had something between the normal bow and longbow in terms of power, while still the size of a short bow and with an easier let-off [being recurves the heaviest part of the draw is early on, making it a little easier to hold drawn].
On the downside, the thing's held together by glue, and I mean "dead animal bits are sticky", not high powered epoxies. Composite bows were something to avoid in temperate and humid climates because the humidity will destroy them. If "firearms and crossbows must be" realism was applied to composites, folks with normal longbows would be laughing all the way to the bank given the usual climates involved in fantasy settings.
Well, not "oh it rots away", but rather a rather horrific [or hilarious depending on the situation] and very expensive surprise when it's been humid all day and you draw it at full weight.
That is a possibility. But composite bows could be tied together with string as well in order to benefit from different materials and this would be less susceptible to moist then the glue (which is an option as well). In fact bone glue can be traced back as far as the stone age, as people were able to find and date a tailfeather repair, with glue and a thin bone as spalk, for a hunting bird.
If you sit down at a PFS table, and tell the GM your bow is not made of wood, you're going to be out of luck, unless you can show it written somewhere that bows can be made of other material.
I agree for the short- and longbow as the PRD states this specifically, but the Composite bow does not state specific materials and by it's name is is a Composite and can be a mixture of materials. Also remember that the bowstring is definetly not made of wood, so some common sense does come into play.
Sorry Nefreet, I don't want to nag you, it's just an opinion nothing personal.
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If you sit down at a PFS table, and tell the GM your bow is not made of wood, you're going to be out of luck, unless you can show it written somewhere that bows can be made of other material.I agree for the short- and longbow as the PRD states this specifically, but the Composite bow does not state specific materials and by it's name is is a Composite and can be a mixture of materials. Also remember that the bowstring is definetly not made of wood, so some common sense does come into play.
Sorry Nefreet, I don't to seem to nag you, it's just an opinion nothing personal.
So, because the composite bow description doesn't specifically say that the weapon is the same material as normal bows, it can be made out of... anything? Am I following your argument correctly?
Because I've always wanted a composite longbow made of unicorns...
EDIT: Also, longswords, half-plate, chainmail, and basically every other metal item in the CRB don't specifically note that they're made of metal! More fodder for the unicorn horde!
If you sit down at a PFS table, and tell the GM your bow is not made of wood, you're going to be out of luck, unless you can show it written somewhere that bows can be made of other material.I agree for the short- and longbow as the PRD states this specifically, but the Composite bow does not state specific materials and by it's name is is a Composite and can be a mixture of materials. Also remember that the bowstring is definetly not made of wood, so some common sense does come into play.
Sorry Nefreet, I don't to seem to nag you, it's just an opinion nothing personal.
Well , this is a matter for the GM to decide , but honestly , i agree with Nefreet.
I would consider that what the composite bow got different is written on the composite bow description , if it does not say it is harder or more durable than a normal bow , i would consider it to be equal to the bow in question.
Also when it comes to wooden weapons it appears their hardness come from what the weapon is mostly made off. That means , sure it can have metal parts , but mostly , it is still wood right? Then its hardness comes from the wood not metal parts.
The description of the composite bow states that is it considerably harder to pull as a composite bow can deliver your strength to damage.
So a composite bow is definitly stronger then a regular bow because it requires more strength to draw.
And yes it's possible to use other materials to make armors and weapons (like wood or glass), but unless you apply the ironwood or glassteel spell the item will be worthless (again some common sense).
I did not state that a composite bow must be made using metal, but I think it may. Nefreet stated that RAW suggests it must be wood and I do not agree.
If you sit down at a PFS table, and tell the GM your bow is not made of wood, you're going to be out of luck, unless you can show it written somewhere that bows can be made of other material.I agree for the short- and longbow as the PRD states this specifically, but the Composite bow does not state specific materials and by it's name is is a Composite and can be a mixture of materials. Also remember that the bowstring is definetly not made of wood, so some common sense does come into play.
Sorry Nefreet, I don't to seem to nag you, it's just an opinion nothing personal.
Well , this is a matter for the GM to decide , but honestly , i agree with Nefreet.
I would consider that what the composite bow got different is written on the composite bow description , if it does not say it is harder or more durable than a normal bow , i would consider it to be equal to the bow in question.
Also when it comes to wooden weapons it appears their hardness come from what the weapon is mostly made off. That means , sure it can have metal parts , but mostly , it is still wood right? Then its hardness comes from the wood not metal parts.
I might agree to the hardness of your statement but I might argue that the composite bow has more hitpoint because of the extra materials and construction. After all it requires a harder pull to draw and should have more hitpoints at least (and maybe even hardness).
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you can add Impervious to any ranged weapon, so for +3000gp flat price ( +4000 maybe, its nice to add Adaptive as well, so you can get a bull str or something and have an impact eventually ).
so a +1 impervious composite longbow :
can't be targetted by warp wood
has a hardness of 9 instead of 7 for a normal +1 projectile weapon
has 25 hp, insead of 15 for a normal +1 projectile weapon.
a +2 impervious composite longbow :
has a hardness of 13 instead of 9 for a normal +2 projectile weapon
has 45 hp, instead of 25 for a normal +2 projectile weapon.
a +4 impervious composite longbow :
hardness of 21 ( even adamantine weapons don't get a free pass to sunder your bow)
has 85 hp ( so good luck, they'll be hacking for a while )
if you're a Magus with a +1 impervious projectile weapon, you're set as you advance.
impervious will make your weapon un-sunderable by 9th level, leaving you free to make it a +1 holy bow, and just protect it from sunder with your arcane bond.
as a ranger... eh, you're going to want to beef up your bow for damage and accuracy anyway =)
in pfs, you're not going to need to worry about damage to your bow too much. as a gm, i've only sundered someone's weapon in a module, once. and never in a scenario.
If you are trying to get a special ability in game, you are reduced to Greenwood and Darkwood.
If you just want to describe your bow as something cool and not get benefits, any GM, even PFS GMs should be fine with you describing it as a 'Ivory and Laminated Blackwood Bow with Silver grip and gray leather bindings'. Or 'A golden laminated oak bow with a filligree gold grip and red leather bindings'.
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you can add Impervious to any ranged weapon, so for +3000gp flat price ( +4000 maybe, its nice to add Adaptive as well, so you can get a bull str or something and have an impact eventually ).
so a +1 impervious composite longbow :
can't be targetted by warp wood
has a hardness of 9 instead of 7 for a normal +1 projectile weapon
has 25 hp, insead of 15 for a normal +1 projectile weapon.a +2 impervious composite longbow :
has a hardness of 13 instead of 9 for a normal +2 projectile weapon
has 45 hp, instead of 25 for a normal +2 projectile weapon.a +4 impervious composite longbow :
hardness of 21 ( even adamantine weapons don't get a free pass to sunder your bow)
has 85 hp ( so good luck, they'll be hacking for a while )if you're a Magus with a +1 impervious projectile weapon, you're set as you advance.
impervious will make your weapon un-sunderable by 9th level, leaving you free to make it a +1 holy bow, and just protect it from sunder with your arcane bond.as a ranger... eh, you're going to want to beef up your bow for damage and accuracy anyway =)
in pfs, you're not going to need to worry about damage to your bow too much. as a gm, i've only sundered someone's weapon in a module, once. and never in a scenario.
Nice breakdown.
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Snowleopard, I notice you do not have any PFS characters registered, and do not have any GM stars, so I will assume you've never played PFS.
It's a different ball game than running Pathfinder at home. In a home game you can come up with your own rules and discuss with your GM "common sense" applications, like making a composite bow out of composite materials. I'd certainly allow it in my home games, and I think discussions like that are healthy for the GM/Player relationship and the overall enjoyment of the game.
But things are different when you sit down at a Pathfinder Society table, where the rules are largely non-permissive. In PFS, there is no "homebrewing" of rules. The description of a longbow is that it's made of wood, and that a composite longbow is a longbow that adds the wielder's Strength to damage. There is no extrapolation on other materials that it can be made of. If you can find a book, or an errata, or an FAQ that says otherwise, you're golden. But just going off the name "composite" is not strong enough of an argument.
And so, since we're having this discussion in the Rules Forum, which generally goes off of the rules-as-written, and which is often read by PFS players, the ruling as it is now is that a bow can only be made of wood.
Aha I didn't realise the difference between PFS and Pathfinder at home.
It's a good thing that I never played PFS then, as discussing about the rules implementation is the part of the game I like most ;)
May I assume that PFS is online????? With clients and GM hosting a game on a computer????
Bone, actually.
The composite is horn and wood, with sinew. They laminated the stuff.Yes, I forgot about bone, but is bone usefull as bow material, because I would expect bone to be too brittle.
Yes, bone was a useful bow building material, for thousands of years.
A bow basically works two ways. The "front" of the bow needs to be elastic, to contact or "pull" the bow back into shape once the string is released. The "back" of the bow should be denser so the it will expand or "push" the bow back into shape when the string is released. Drawing the bow basically stretches the front elastic part, and compresses the back denser part.
A plain wood bow takes advantage of the differing density of wood (more dense at the core). A composite bow will use multiple types of wood of differing density, and even denser but still flexible materials like bone, to improve this double-action spring mechanism.
As far as the RAW is concerned, everyone else has already stated that bows are really only able to be made out of wood, and conventionally, they are. So no luck there.
In terms of RAI, I would disagree in saying that bows can only be made out of wood. Metal, when refined into thin enough layers, becomes malleable and flexible, similar to how wood reacts when carved into a bow-like structure, yet can still remain sturdy and reliable, like a Katana sword for example. It's not beyond the realms of possibility to have bows made from metallic components, but such refinining is difficult and perhaps almost unheard of, unless the bowyer is a master at his profession, and is probably something that I would limit only to magic bows (or masterwork bows, at the very least).
The only drawback for allowing bows to also be makable out of metal is that it makes ranged weapons that much more powerful in the mid-game. In addition, such rules for special materials applying to bows is sketchy. The rules for ammunition are already implemented; trying to apply the same logic to bows is very difficult, if not impossible, to confer without there being some sort of contradiction or level of irrelevance.
In truth, making a Bow out of Adamantine would only confer the extra durability, since the bow itself is not making an attack to bypass hardness, the ammunition is. In addition, a circumstance such as Mithril would only decrease the weight of the weapon, not make it considered Silver for overcoming DR for the same reasons. Unless you use the Bow itself as an improvised weapon to swat at the enemy, the other benefits won't apply when you shoot ammunition, as it's the ammunition hitting the enemy, not the Bow.
That's true Darksol, very true. It's not the launcher that hurts but the impact of the package sent.
And to quote the theme of the bowyer group of Farbow. Live by the sword, die by the arrow :)
Wasn't the bow in the story the Odessy made of bone or was it horn and very hard material since it took a certain way to string it up? This is why I'm asking if you can make bows from more then just wood. Ivory would be enamel but not sure if you can bend it.
The problem is you are asking in the Rules section , which usually means you want a RAW answer, which people already gave:
Pretty much no , bows are made of wood per RAW.
You don't, generally. There's the FAQ, but that just clarifies uncertainties. It's not for changing stuff.
The Suggestions forum, maybe, but that's usually used as "hey guys, this houserule is cool, you should use it."
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I think we are all ignoring the more pressing question of why a player is that scared of sunder attempts against a ranged weapon. I mean, I lose more weapons doing stupid things (like attacking caryatids with a bladed weapon) than to sunder-attempts.
A bow is just a fragile bit of wood on some level, but a melee character ten feet in front of you (threatening five feet in all directions) will do more to protect your bow from sundering than finding an exotic material to make it from. Even if you do get hit, anything under 10 points of damage (5 hardness + 5 hp, magic items needing another 12 points of damage per +1) only leaves it broken, which can be fixed by any mage with the Mending cantrip.
As mentioned, remember that CMD is your friend; a ranger will usually have good BAB and a good score in both Dex and Str, so your CMD should be pretty good. Anything that boosts your Dex boosts your CMD too, so that's two reasons you have to keep Dex high.
Generally though, if you are being attacked by too many enemies who would use the sunder action with a less than 50% chance of success rather than just trying to hurt you, you have angered the DM.
It would also make the bow pretty damm unusable. Adamantium is the kind of metal that would break before bending. There is a very good reason that you don't see metal bows in primitive times, Metallurgy simply isn't that advanced.
In truth, making a Bow out of Adamantine would only confer the extra durability, since the bow itself is not making an attack to bypass hardness, the ammunition is. In addition, a circumstance such as Mithril would only decrease the weight of the weapon, not make it considered Silver for overcoming DR for the same reasons. Unless you use the Bow itself as an improvised weapon to swat at the enemy, the other benefits won't apply when you shoot ammunition, as it's the ammunition hitting the enemy, not the Bow.
As I've said before, bows being made out of metal has shown to be possible, which our time period has proven.
In addition, metal, when made into thin enough layers, becomes malleable enough to bend and warp without breaking. It is this same type of method that goes into making weapons like Katanas and Wakizashis and the like, which can also be transferred into the art of crafting bows (though in either case, a Blacksmith is required).
Safe to say, the methods and techniques usable to make bows out of Metal are there, and can easily be crafted in the times of old, what with Magic and Fantasy out and about. I have never stipulated, however, that such capabilities are worthwhile or even commonplace; it is true that we can create bows out of metal, but such a technique took many years to create and perfect, and is no easy task, hence why I say that if there were such bows, chances are they are only craftable by those who are at the top of their profession, meaning that 9/10, such bows are Masterwork or Magical in properties.
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A composite bow =/= a compound bow.
They're two completely different weapons. One is made from wood and glue, while the other is made from plastic and metal (and not to mention a bunch of pulleys).
If a compound bow was stated in the Pathfinder rules, it would have completely different stats than a composite bow.
As I've said before, bows being made out of metal has shown to be possible, which our time period has proven.
In addition, metal, when made into thin enough layers, becomes malleable enough to bend and warp without breaking. It is this same type of method that goes into making weapons like Katanas and Wakizashis and the like, which can also be transferred into the art of crafting bows (though in either case, a Blacksmith is required).
Safe to say, the methods and techniques usable to make bows out of Metal are there, and can easily be crafted in the times of old, what with Magic and Fantasy out and about. I have never stipulated, however, that such capabilities are worthwhile or even commonplace; it is true that we can create bows out of metal, but such a technique took many years to create and perfect, and is no easy task, hence why I say that if there were such bows, chances are they are only craftable by those who are at the top of their profession, meaning that 9/10, such bows are Masterwork or Magical in properties.
Outside RAW there is no need to treat it like that i think , honestly sure in OUR world at that "period in time" that would have been hard , but usually most fantastical worlds got dwarves.
Dwarves are usually represented like a race incredible capable of metal crafting ,there is no saying how our world would be if they were there back then and if they could not just create this kind of thing, therefore just say dwarves can create such bows and done.
You have a metal bow, still that is a GM call.
A composite bow =/= a compound bow.
They're two completely different weapons. One is made from wood and glue, while the other is made from plastic and metal (and not to mention a bunch of pulleys).
If a compound bow was stated in the Pathfinder rules, it would have completely different stats than a composite bow.
It's not like Pathfinder has the same level of physics as the real world. It has many similarities, but when you throw Magic and Fantasy into the mix, it gets hairy and all levels of different.
Is it possible? Yes. By Magic and Fantasy? Even more so.
Even so, the RAW is clear and concise as to the stance regarding it, but it's not like there is any RAI that would say it's impossible.
Because in places like Alkenstar or Numeria, guns would be the next logical step, not metal bows. Hell, in Numeria, they've probably got laser guns.
Laser guns =/= metal bows :P
Wasn't the bow in the story the Odessy made of bone or was it horn and very hard material since it took a certain way to string it up? This is why I'm asking if you can make bows from more then just wood. Ivory would be enamel but not sure if you can bend it.
Oh first of all the hero's name was Odysseus (the word Odessy is named after him).
I somehow have a memory of a horn used in a bow, but I do not know whether or not this was linked to odysseus bow. But the bow of Heracles (Hercules) was really cool. As he made a bow out of a Cyclops made sowing needle (metal).So for hercules that would be a strength bow and he poisoned his arrows using blood that he obtained fighting the Hydra. He could have diseased his arrows while cleaning the Auchias stables, but he never did.
Man that's a bow and ammo I'd love to use.
I think, considering the mythical evidence provided, to the powers that be, they will have no other choice then to add this to the RAW.
100% sure ........ almost ........ I mean: they might ........ well it's not like I advocated the entire proposal ......... I didn't suggest it, nobody saw me suggesting it, you can't prove anything.
After reading all this why didn't anyone think of Ironwood??? It clearly states that iron wood can be used on Bows.
"Greenwood can be altered or enhanced with wood-shaping magic such as ironwood, shape wood, and warp wood." If you can have a greenwood bow than you can have an ironwood bow.
If that is the case, then you can have a +1 Composite Ironwood Long Bow (+x). Unless someone can show me RAW that disproves this it stands that any bow can be ironwood. this would make sense to use with the Empty Quiver style feat for any archery based character so you only have to carry one weapon at all times and never have to worry about destroying your bow while bouncing it off a troll's head.
Ironwood was mentioned by Snowleopard back in October of 2013.
Ironwood was mentioned by Snowleopard back in October of 2013.
Sorry, just re-read and I see that now, but as far as materials go I believe it was not given its due. Since this thread was about materials for bows I thought I should point out that Ironwood means the bows hardness & HP increases to that of Iron but retains its functionality as a wooden bow. Coupled with impervious its extremely hard to destroy.
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Wasn't the bow in the story the Odessy made of bone or was it horn and very hard material since it took a certain way to string it up? This is why I'm asking if you can make bows from more then just wood. Ivory would be enamel but not sure if you can bend it.Oh first of all the hero's name was Odysseus (the word Odessy is named after him).
I somehow have a memory of a horn used in a bow, but I do not know whether or not this was linked to odysseus bow. But the bow of Heracles (Hercules) was really cool. As he made a bow out of a Cyclops made sowing needle (metal).
So for hercules that would be a strength bow and he poisoned his arrows using blood that he obtained fighting the Hydra. He could have diseased his arrows while cleaning the Auchias stables, but he never did.
Man that's a bow and ammo I'd love to use.
I think, considering the mythical evidence provided, to the powers that be, they will have no other choice then to add this to the RAW.
100% sure ........ almost ........ I mean: they might ........ well it's not like I advocated the entire proposal ......... I didn't suggest it, nobody saw me suggesting it, you can't prove anything.
I don't think he was saying the Character's name in the story was Odessy, I think he was trying to remember the name of the story. Which is "The Odyssey" or at least is a continuation of the story begun in "The Iliad"
Either way, I don't recall if the Bow was ever named as being made of any specific types of material or not, only that it was exceptional difficult to even string (as none of the suitors could even successfully perform that challenge, let alone the shot through the axe heads.) And quick google searches are failing to answer that question for me at the moment.