What is the consequence of ruling that FCT allows your innate claws to benefit from IUS damage bumps from Monk levels ? Flurry/attack with IUS and then make secondary attacks with claws/bite (if FCT selected twice?) ?
Nothing.
What does “with” in the Special line for Feral Combat Training mean for monks making a flurry of blows?
Normally a monk who has natural attacks (such as a lizardfolk monk with claw attacks) cannot use those natural attacks as part of a flurry of blows. Feral Combat Training allows you to use the selected natural attack as if it were a monk weapon—you can use it as one of your flurry of blows attacks, use it to deploy special attacks that require you to use a monk weapon, apply the effects of the natural weapon (such as a poisonous bite) for each flurry of blows attack, and so on.
The feat does not allow you to make your normal flurry of blows attack sequence plus one or more natural attacks with the natural weapon. In other words, if you can flurry for four attacks per round, with this feat you still only make four attacks per round... but any number of those attacks may be with the selected natural weapon.
If you flurry you can't add natural attacks at the end, you just substitute the natural weapon for the "monk weapon" used in the flurry.
So having Monk increase the natural weapon's damage just ends with a monk doing the same thing he always could, only using a claw (or bite, or gore) instead of his fist. Same damage, same number of attacks.
You are correct, which is why I'm unsure of the value of BBT's point.No it doesn't, it applies to the metagame mechanic we use to determine if the IUS/natural attack hits. It "augments" the attack roll if you are going to explain it in such terms, which would be incorrect to state. That it adds to the die roll doesn't mean it is an "effect", it just means the mechanics work in such a way that a total modifier is the sum of several parts.Well, BAB does apply to unarmed strikes. In a hypothetical rules set where attacks from manufactured weapons added the BAB to the attack roll but attacks with natural weapons did not, I would argue that feral combat training would count BAB as an effect that augments an unarmed strike.
In the real rules, that's not an issue.
I think his point is just because something can be "logically" explained in such a way, doesn't mean the explanation being made is valid.
New to the process, how many times does a question need to be FAQd before it gets looked at?
There doesn't really seem to be any consistent rule on this, beyond the fact that more FAQs is better.
It's quality, not quantity, that is preferred.New to the process, how many times does a question need to be FAQd before it gets looked at?There doesn't really seem to be any consistent rule on this, beyond the fact that more FAQs is better.
It is true that this issue is somewhat minor, since it is not entirely a good choice for builds. Outside of wildshaping/beast shaping and other polymorph effects, most players lack the number of natural attacks (of the same type at least) to make this issue really matter when an unarmed strike could do the same job with less issues. Did I question whether it was better just to stick with boar style unarmed strikes instead of claws? I can't remember anymore.
And the devs have chimed in on their distaste for mixing natural attacks and unarmed strikes. I think it was a complaint about how the attacks were 'conveniently on other limbs' or something along those lines.
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And the devs have chimed in on their distaste for mixing natural attacks and unarmed strikes. I think it was a complaint about how the attacks were 'conveniently on other limbs' or something along those lines.
While that may be true, it's the Devs that created FCT.
Though, FCT doesn't really muddy the waters, it uses a natural attack instead of an unarmed attack. Seems to me that there is still is a clear distinction.
Official Rules Response
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FAQ: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1g1#v5748eaic9rbe
Feral Combat Training and Unarmed Strike Damage: Does this allow me to use my monk unarmed damage with the selected natural attack?
Yes. The feat says you can apply "effects that augment an unarmed strike," and the monk's increased unarmed damage counts as such.
Well that's lovely and clear. And a question I was asking just last night!
Whooooooo! I love you pathfinder design team!!!!...wow that was an emotional outburst.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Necro, sorry.
Revisiting this, at the time I took this as a dice swap, not an enhancement because of the way the PDT Question was written.
I've seen a lot of threads that took it the other way. So which interpretation are we using? Do we have followup PDT answers?
A) A Monk with 1d6 Unarmed Strike and 2d6 Gore makes Gore attacks with 1d6 when applying Unarmed Strike damage to Gore.
B) A Monk with 1d6 Unarmed Strike and 2d6 Gore makes Gore attacks with 4d6 when applying Unarmed Strike damage to Gore (two die steps up.)
Necro, sorry.
Revisiting this, at the time I took this as a dice swap, not an enhancement because of the way the PDT Question was written.
I've seen a lot of threads that took it the other way. So which interpretation are we using? Do we have followup PDT answers?
A) A Monk with 1d6 Unarmed Strike and 2d6 Gore makes Gore attacks with 1d6 when applying Unarmed Strike damage to Gore.
B) A Monk with 1d6 Unarmed Strike and 2d6 Gore makes Gore attacks with 4d6 when applying Unarmed Strike damage to Gore (two die steps up.)
The way I understand it is:
If: Unarmed Strike Damage > Natural Weapon Damage
Then: Set Natural Weapon Damage = Unarmed Strike Damage
So the Gore attack would still do 2d6 unless and until the Monk's UAS exceeds 2d6. It's not mandatory to use effects that augment UAS; it's simply permissible.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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So the Gore attack would still do 2d6 unless and until the Monk's UAS exceeds 2d6. It's not mandatory to use effects that augment UAS; it's simply permissible.
I agree but I'm running into a 10th level build doing 24d8 on a full attack (+19/+19/+14) using FCT/WildShape/Monk Belt. It is easy enough to limit to 2d10 from 20th level Monk limit.
So the Gore attack would still do 2d6 unless and until the Monk's UAS exceeds 2d6. It's not mandatory to use effects that augment UAS; it's simply permissible.I agree but I'm running into a 10th level build doing 24d8 on a full attack (+19/+19/+14) using FCT/WildShape/Monk Belt. It is easy enough to limit to 2d10 from 20th level Monk limit.
What's the build in play, wild shape form, etc.?
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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What's the build in play, wild shape form, etc.?
Several: Cave Druid using a 7d8 or 6d6 (which goes to 20d6) form.
But you can do it with base druid earlier for 14d8 using a B2 Dino.This is stacking 3 "increases" from Unarmed Strike before stacking INA from Ranger and Strong Jaw. There is debate about whether they stack. So if they stack the generic Druid could do 50d8 at 9th level on three attacks.
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FAQ: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1g1#v5748eaic9rbe
Feral Combat Training and Unarmed Strike Damage: Does this allow me to use my monk unarmed damage with the selected natural attack?
Yes. The feat says you can apply "effects that augment an unarmed strike," and the monk's increased unarmed damage counts as such.
Necro on this thread, since apparently the 3rd printing errata to Ultimate Combat has made the Pathfinder Design Team's ruling above obsolete. The second half of the feat's effects have been removed, so that now it applies to feats ONLY, and not all effects.
Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite.
Personally, I hate this and will continue to allow feral combat training to augment natural attacks, but I thought I'd go ahead and make sure that everyone finding this thread in the future knows that the above quote is outdated by official rules.