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There are many arguments for and against the way True Seeing works and what exactly it sees through, but that is an discussion and debate that would go on for quite a while. The basic gist of it is that it lets the caster/recipient see through magical effects of all sorts.
True seeing, however, does not penetrate solid objects. It in no way confers X-ray vision or its equivalent. It does not negate concealment, including that caused by fog and the like. True seeing does not help the viewer see through mundane disguises, spot creatures who are simply hiding, or notice secret doors hidden by mundane means. In addition, the spell effects cannot be further enhanced with known magic, so one cannot use true seeing through a crystal ball or in conjunction with clairaudience/clairvoyance.
It does not have any effect whatsoever on non magical effects or disguises... something to remember, since I have been in many games where that was abused to the detriment of the poor thief...
As for what they "see", in games I run and most I have played in, they see a ghostly image of the true form of the hidden/changed being/object either superimposed (in the case of transformative magic), or a ghostly outline (in the case of invisibility or magical concealment), or illuionary barriers/effects become translucent and distinct so that the person can see through them and still observe their placement.
One thing I have seen used is the comparative level aspect. If the spell of effect being observed is higher level than the True Seeing, than it is not revealed. Sort of how the light/dark or "remove" spells work.
RAW, it pierces magical effects as well as normal darkness. Every polymorph effect I know of is magical in some fashion; wild shape, for example, is supernatural, and a rakshasa bloodline sorcerer's alter self ability is spell-like. The spell mentions that you see the true nature of such things; that means you see that the sorcerer is really a rakshasa, and that the wild-shaped elven druid is really an elf. How you visualize this information is left to the reader; a common method is to superimpose the true form over the false one, or vice versa. The seer knows which is which.
I'm not sure what causes the vitriol displayed in the original post. It's a pretty well-described spell. I also don't see the need to nerf it by making it only apply to equal or lesser spell levels when many of the things it sees through don't even have a spell level. The spell is powerful, and intentionally so.
You think True Seeing too powerful? Is it being abused?
Components V, S, M (an eye ointment that costs 250 gp)
At the levels when you start to use this spell - 250gp isn't break the bank expensive - but it's still enough to keep this spell on the 'when needed' category instead of 'on a whim'.
You can always use Nondetection (a lower level spell) for some type of protection (as it forces all divination spells used against the target to make a caster level check to overcome the spell).
On a side note as druids wild shape is a supernatural ability and not actually a polymorph I'd say it's up to the GM if they want to allow true seeing to see anything. But that's my opinion.
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On a side note as druids wild shape is a supernatural ability and not actually a polymorph I'd say it's up to the GM if they want to allow true seeing to see anything. But that's my opinion.
Wild shape is a Polymorph effect in PF, it inherits from Beast Shape/Plant Shape/etc. which all have the polymorph descriptor.
If you're bothered by seeing through transmutations: Remember that even transmutations aren't complete alterations if they have a duration other than instantaneous. Think of it as the spell holding the target's form in the new shape much like someone touching the corners of their mouth and stretching it into a forced grin. When the spell is gone, the shape reverts to normal, much like letting go of the mouth. Since a spell is propping up the effect, it is vulnerable to true seeing. Even some instantaneous spells can be seen through this way if they can be reversed via break enchantment.
For me, it's easier to view it as a metaphysical thing. Something is trying to disguise its nature, whether using darkness or through supernatural means. This spell pierces any such veils, and revealing the true nature of things. It won't see through actual things, though, since they are truly there and truly obstruct your sight.
Regarding wild shape: It's a polymorph effect, full stop.
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1st and 2 edition of AD&D and in the BECM D&D True seeing allowed you to see the soul, spirit or essence of a creature or object. That was the reason why you were capable to see his true form. As an added bonus that allowed you to see if a creature was possessed.
3.X and Pathfinder removed the "see the soul part" but kept all the other abilities, so now you see the true form of something without a explanation of why you see that beside "magic".
Suppose your PC was turned into a rat by Baleful Polymorph and left in a pit full of rats. A spell like Break Enchantment could turn you back into your true form, as long as someone can tell which one you. There ought to be a spell that can do that. What would you call that spell?
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Suppose your PC was turned into a rat by Baleful Polymorph and left in a pit full of rats. A spell like Break Enchantment could turn you back into your true form, as long as someone can tell which one you. There ought to be a spell that can do that. What would you call that spell?
Identify Sixth Animorph.
You want to avoid True Seeing seeing through your disguise? Cast Nondetection.
- Gauss
Nah, I don't think it's too powerful, I think it's stupid.
For transmutations that are effectively permanent, true seeing shouldn't show the creature sans spell. Heck, what if the change truly is intended to remain permanent? Rakshasa bloodline sorcerers have permanent Alter Self, and usually use it to look like the were before they hit Level 20.
True seeing somehow sees through that?
I don't dispute the power level, I dispute the logic. It's stupid.
"Permanent" doesn't mean what you think it means.
A permanent spell does not mean a spell with an irreversible effect. It means that the spell stays active forever. It's still there, though, which is why it can be dispelled or otherwise affected by effects that affect spells. That's what true seeing lets you see through.
A rakshasa bloodline sorcerer can essentially cast alter self on themselves with the modification that the spell lasts forever until removed. The effect is still there, and the sorcerer is still really an animal-headed humanoid. So true seeing can see through the spell. Note that it does not see through the animal-headed humanoid to the character's original head, because the creature has been actually, permanently changed instead of merely having a permanent spell holding him into the new shape.
Wild shape is similar--it's a polymorph effect holding the druid in its altered form. True seeing sees through that effect to the real form underneath. Even baleful polymorph is a permanent spell effect; take away the effect, and the original creature is still there. True seeing sees that.
Buy a Disguise Kit and put ranks into the Disguise skill. Cheap, mundane solution that isn't effected by True Seeing at all.
This seems less a rules question than a complaint. You seem to understand how it works just fine, excepting some minor details that don't have deep mechanical implications, you just don't personally like how it works thematically and disagree with the devs of 3/3.5/PF in how they ran it ("seeing the true self through anything" vs "it just pierces strict illusions").
Which is fine, but that's what General Discussion is for.
What happens if the original form is larger than the polymorphed or larger than the building you're in like a dragon in "human" form?
Buy a Disguise Kit and put ranks into the Disguise skill. Cheap, mundane solution that isn't effected by True Seeing at all.
Or better yet: first disguise yourself mundanely, and then use a polymorphing effect on yourself. True Seeing will pierce the magic, but the enemy will have no reason to look beyond that. The "failing" disguise disguises the real disguise.
The concept of a things true nature is pretty simple as is a spell that reveals it. That is all true seeing does with transformed creatures. Detect alignment spells detect alignment no matter the form. Read thoughts still works. It's simple.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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Because even though you've been transmuted into a whatever (let's say rat), that isn't your true form.
You may look, sound, and feel like a rat, but you're truly a human being. The rat shape is a false face you're wearing.
Basically, the essential part of you is still human, even though your body has been transformed into that of a rat.
And yeah, when what you see via true seeing conflicts with your other senses, that'd probably be disorienting. I think makes for cool storytelling possibilities though :)
How does this spell see through natural werewolves then? Are not all three forms(humanoid, hybrid, animal) all what the person really is?
How does this spell see through natural werewolves then? Are not all three forms(humanoid, hybrid, animal) all what the person really is?
I don't think so. Lycanthropes (even natural ones) revert to their humanoid form when killed, so that is probably what is considered their default or true form.
If a werewolf is in Wolf or Hybrid form, True Seeing would see their human shape. If they're in human shape, True Seeing can't see jack.
On the other hand, if this was a wolfwere then true seeing would see through the human or hybrid to the wolf shape which is his natural form.
- Gauss
What happens if the original form is larger than the polymorphed or larger than the building you're in like a dragon in "human" form?
On the flipside to this, our group discussed the downside to permanent true seeing. Imagine you have it permanently on you, when a druid wildshaped into a T-rex comes out and attacks. What do you see then?
Like imagine the iconic druid gnome. What does she look like right now? Is she stomping around gnashing her teeth and look like Calvin playing in his imagination? And when she steps does she just lunge forward, equal to the saurian step? Or is she floating in the air about center mass for the T-rex?
Either way, the true seer is going to be in for a nasty surprise when the gnome bites down really hard.
What happens if the original form is larger than the polymorphed or larger than the building you're in like a dragon in "human" form?On the flipside to this, our group discussed the downside to permanent true seeing. Imagine you have it permanently on you, when a druid wildshaped into a T-rex comes out and attacks. What do you see then?
Like imagine the iconic druid gnome. What does she look like right now? Is she stomping around gnashing her teeth and look like Calvin playing in his imagination? And when she steps does she just lunge forward, equal to the saurian step? Or is she floating in the air about center mass for the T-rex?
Either way, the true seer is going to be in for a nasty surprise when the gnome bites down really hard.
This has always been an issue for me. The way I usually run True Seeing is not that you detect the true being of the person, so much as you CANNOT even see the illusion or transmutation. Like, you physically CAN'T see it. This creates for some interesting scenerios though lol
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What happens if the original form is larger than the polymorphed or larger than the building you're in like a dragon in "human" form?On the flipside to this, our group discussed the downside to permanent true seeing. Imagine you have it permanently on you, when a druid wildshaped into a T-rex comes out and attacks. What do you see then?
Like imagine the iconic druid gnome. What does she look like right now? Is she stomping around gnashing her teeth and look like Calvin playing in his imagination? And when she steps does she just lunge forward, equal to the saurian step? Or is she floating in the air about center mass for the T-rex?
Either way, the true seer is going to be in for a nasty surprise when the gnome bites down really hard.
People who succcessfully disbelieve illusions still know about their dimensions and see them as ghostly overlays over the actual area.
I'd imagine true seeing would work similarly with stuff like this (like you'd see the t-rex, but see the druid inside as a glowing human shaped figure) or something. And since its magic, you would understand what the appearance was (or get a spellcraft check or something).
I do remember back in 1e, casting true seeing on an outer plane was a quick trip to the funny farm though (assuming you didn't just die).