As the title says, I want to improve the build below. The concept is a Cabalist Magus PRCing into Dragon Disciple.
Suli Cabalist Elemental Knight Magus 10 / Dragon Disciple 10
STATS:
STR 16
DEX 12
CON 14
INT 5
WIS 12
CHA 18
Traits: Magical Lineage (Frostbite), Outlander: Lore Seeker
1 Magus Rime Spell
2 Magus
3 Magus Spontaneous Metafocus (Frostbite), Arcana: Arcane Accuracy
4 Magus Incremental Elemental Assault
5 Magus Additional Traits: (Metamagic Master: Shocking Grasp, Reactionary), Enforcer
6 Magus Arcana: Spell Shield
7 Magus Intensify Spell
8 Dragon Disciple
9 Dragon Disciple Spontaneous Metafocus (Shocking Grasp), Power Attack
10 Dragon Disciple
11 Dragon Disciple Eldrich Claws, Improved Initiative
12 Magus
13 Magus Extra Arcana: Accurate Strikes, Arcana: Hasted Assault
14 Dragon Disciple
15 Dragon Disciple Quicken Spell
16 Dragon Disciple
17 Dragon Disciple Combat Expertise, Blind Fight
18 Magus
19 Dragon Disciple Moonlight Stalker
20 Dragon Disciple
He uses transmutation spells to gain natural attacks. What do you think?
I think for DD, you required to cast spell without preparing. If I remember right, you need to prepare Magus' spells. Also, I personally think that DD works best with Sorcerer, even only just one level. It's pretty much a class that made for Draconic sorcerer so they can get more beefy while still keep their bloodline power.
SiuoL is correct. You must be able to cast 1st level arcane spells without preparation. Magi prepare spells and suli don't get any SLAs to qualify.
The cabalist is an archetype from Super Genius Games that makes a magus spontaneous instead of prepared.
Interesting, never played books from other party before. However, I still think nothing other then Sorcerer suit DD the best. You gain nothing in Bard except caster level if you level up as DD. But you gain bloodline power and spells from DD, and DD's class feat stack with everything the bloodline offers. Nothing is more suitable to be DD other than Sorcerer.
SiuoL wrote: Interesting, never played books from other party before. However, I still think nothing other then Sorcerer suit DD the best. You gain nothing in Bard except caster level if you level up as DD. But you gain bloodline power and spells from DD, and DD's class feat stack with everything the bloodline offers. Nothing is more suitable to be DD other than Sorcerer. Bard, summoner, or 3rd party classes and archetypes with spontaneous arcane casting gain the draconic bloodline equal to to their dragon disciple level.
The tactics: He focuses on natural attacks via transmutation magic. The basic combos are rime frostbite + enforcer and intesified shocking grasps. When he learns monstrous physique spells, he uses them to transform into a multi-handed form for full-round multi-frostbite delivering. This tactics are dexcribed at this guide.
No Hexcrafter, since 1)I don't want to deal with hexes in my game :) and 2) if he chooses that way, it is better to stay on magus all the way. Elemental Knight is there for changing spell recall with something actually useful, having in mind that we have a spontaneous casting Magus. Suli also has great stat modifiers, if we exclude the 5 Int.
SiuoL wrote: Interesting, never played books from other party before. However, I still think nothing other then Sorcerer suit DD the best. You gain nothing in Bard except caster level if you level up as DD. But you gain bloodline power and spells from DD, and DD's class feat stack with everything the bloodline offers. Nothing is more suitable to be DD other than Sorcerer. Sorcerers don't gain much from the strength bonus or the increase in base attack bonus, while loosing a tremendous amount every time they lose a spell casting level. Meanwhile bards / magus / etc. gain much more from the attribute bonuses of the dragon disciple, while not losing as much from the lost caster levels.
That said, I'd probably be very tempted to go 12 / 8, keep the extra caster level (I believe) and get a bit of level 12 goodness from the magus and get full +15 BAB (depending on what cabalist and elemental knight replaces).
Edit: After having looked it up, the cabalist does gain a bloodline, which of course would have to be draconic. I do think that 12 / 8 would be the best split to keep the maximum caster levels and BAB while still getting everything you want from dragon disciple.
I also think I'd accent strength over charisma, your spells aren't going to do you any good if you can't hit what you swing at.
ShadowcatX wrote: SiuoL wrote: Interesting, never played books from other party before. However, I still think nothing other then Sorcerer suit DD the best. You gain nothing in Bard except caster level if you level up as DD. But you gain bloodline power and spells from DD, and DD's class feat stack with everything the bloodline offers. Nothing is more suitable to be DD other than Sorcerer. Sorcerers don't gain much from the strength bonus or the increase in base attack bonus, while loosing a tremendous amount every time they lose a spell casting level. Meanwhile bards / magus / etc. gain much more from the attribute bonuses of the dragon disciple, while not losing as much from the lost caster levels.
That said, I'd probably be very tempted to go 12 / 8, keep the extra caster level (I believe) and get a bit of level 12 goodness from the magus and get full +15 BAB (depending on what cabalist and elemental knight replaces).
Edit: After having looked it up, the cabalist does gain a bloodline, which of course would have to be draconic. I do think that 12 / 8 would be the best split to keep the maximum caster levels and BAB while still getting everything you want from dragon disciple.
I also think I'd accent strength over charisma, your spells aren't going to do you any good if you can't hit what you swing at. Fair enough, I was split between 10/10 or 12/8 anyway. So the last 3 lvls are Magus if we get to that. The aim was to use Arcane Accuracy (home brewed to work off Charisma) for attack bonus, but I guess you are right, str is more improtant for the build.
Updated:
Suli Cabalist Elemental Knight Magus 12 / Dragon Disciple 8
STATS:
STR 18
DEX 12
CON 14
INT 5
WIS 12
CHA 16
Traits: Magical Lineage (Frostbite), Outlander: Lore Seeker
1 Magus Rime Spell
2 Magus
3 Magus Spontaneous Metafocus (Frostbite), Arcana: Arcane Accuracy
4 Magus Incremental Elemental Assault
5 Magus Additional Traits: (Metamagic Master: Shocking Grasp, Reactionary), Enforcer
6 Magus Arcana: Spell Shield
7 Magus Intensify Spell
8 Dragon Disciple
9 Dragon Disciple Spontaneous Metafocus (Shocking Grasp), Power Attack
10 Dragon Disciple
11 Dragon Disciple Elemental Spell, Improved Initiative
12 Magus
13 Magus Extra Arcana: Accurate Strikes, Arcana: Hasted Assault
14 Dragon Disciple
15 Dragon Disciple Eldrich Claws
16 Dragon Disciple
17 Dragon Disciple Spell Perfection: Cone of Cold, Quicken Spell
18 Magus
19 Magus Dazing Spell, Extra Arcana: Spell Blending (Contingency)
20 Magus Arcana: Spell Blending (Permanency)
He chooses Dragonic (Silver) dragon. Do you think it is worth it fitting somewhere the Elemental Spell feat for turning shocking grasps to cold damage?
Might I also suggest you look at Undefeatable #14: Dragon Disciple there are some nice feats that count as your bonus dragon bloodline feat. There are some that would work very well with your frost bloodline.
Mathaius Erinhir wrote: Might I also suggest you look at Undefeatable #14: Dragon Disciple there are some nice feats that count as your bonus dragon bloodline feat. There are some that would work very well with your frost bloodline. Can I find it in the d20PFSRD? I use this site as a point of reference.
Just a quick comment, as far as I know the cabalist still uses INT as a casting Stat and not CHA. At least nothing in the Cabalist archtype mentions changing the casting Stat.
So your build with INT 5 wouldn't be able to cast any spells.
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XMorsX wrote: Mathaius Erinhir wrote: Might I also suggest you look at Undefeatable #14: Dragon Disciple there are some nice feats that count as your bonus dragon bloodline feat. There are some that would work very well with your frost bloodline. Can I find it in the d20PFSRD? I use this site as a point of reference. Unfortunately no. Google it and it should pop up for you.
A problem I found in the build is that with 1 skill point per lvl you cannot get into dragon disciple and have spell perfection by 15th lvl. This can be solved with 8 starting Int and the ability boost that DD reives at his 8th lvl. So the new stats are:
STATS:
STR 18
DEX 12
CON 14
INT 8
WIS 8
CHA 16
Kijika wrote: Just a quick comment, as far as I know the cabalist still uses INT as a casting Stat and not CHA. At least nothing in the Cabalist archtype mentions changing the casting Stat.
So your build with INT 5 wouldn't be able to cast any spells.
From the d20PFSRD:
"The cabalist does not gain cantrips and spells per day as a typical magus does. Instead, the cabalist gains cantrips, spells known, and spells per day as a bard of the same level (though still using the magus class spell list). If a cabalist selects the harmonic blending, jinx blending, or spell blending magus arcanas, he gains the selected spells as bonus spells known."
And
A bard casts arcane spells drawn from the bard spell list. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time. Every bard spell has a verbal component (singing, reciting, or music). To learn or cast a spell, a bard must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class (DC) for a saving throw against a bard’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the bard’s Charisma modifier.
Like other spellcasters, a bard can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: bard. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score.
The bard’s selection of spells is extremely limited. A bard begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of the bard’s choice. At each new bard level, he gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Bard Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a bard knows is not affected by his Charisma score (See Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells).
Upon reaching 5th level, and at every third bard level after that (8th, 11th, and so on), a bard can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the bard “loses” the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell’s level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least one level lower than the highest-level bard spell the bard can cast. A bard may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level.
A bard need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his allotment of spells per day for the spell’s level.
I have read elsewere too that he uses Int as his casting stat, but it seems pretty clear to me that his casting stat is Charisma.
Actually, Kijika is correct. All the cabalist gains are:
Quote: cantrips, spells known, and spells per day as a bard of the same level (though still using the magus class spell list) Basically look at the bard chart and take everything from the chart and nothing else. That means the magus keeps the text
Quote: To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the magus must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a magus’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the magus’s Intelligence modifier. (I didn't notice that or I'd have said something earlier. Sorry.)
Oh well. Thanks for the info. I will probably home brew it then (I am the GM) to work of charisma for the requirments of Spontaneous Metafocus. Do you know any alternative means of having the same results, other than this feat?
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