The new Faq says that i could have only 3 free action per round. Since talk is a free action and reload guns is a free action, when i fire 3 times i a round my char get the mute condition?
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The FAQ doesn't say that.
The point is: the FAQ doesn't say "you can only have 3 free actions per round," so any questions stemming from that false premise are skewed.
The FAQ is merely a guideline, not an absolute. It even states that in the FAQ itself that a GM can allow more or less free actions per their whim. This has always been the case, only now, there are some examples on how it can be done.
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The point is: the FAQ doesn't say "you can only have 3 free actions per round," so any questions stemming from that false premise are skewed.
If you don't expect people to use the exact example given in the FAQ, then why write it?
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The point is: the FAQ doesn't say "you can only have 3 free actions per round," so any questions stemming from that false premise are skewed.If you don't expect people to use the exact example given in the FAQ, then why write it?
I think they expect them to read the whole thing, not just the example out of context:
Although there are no specific rules about how many free actions you may take in a round, it is reasonable for a GM to limit you to performing 5 free actions per round if each is a different free action, or perhaps 3 free actions per round if two or more are the same free action.
Part of this is for the sake of game balance (as some abilities used together may allow you to perform an unlimited number of useful free actions on your turn).
Part is for realism (as just because you can do something as a free action doesn't really mean you could realistically perform that action 5 or more times in 6 seconds).
Part is to speed up gameplay (as one character taking a dozen actions on his turn slows down the game compared to a character who only takes a standard action and move action on her turn).Again, these are guidelines, and the GM can allow more or fewer free actions as appropriate to the circumstances.
The FAQ wasn't "you can't take more than three free actions" it was "the gm might limit how many free actions you can take and here are some explanatory examples of what that might entail".
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The point is: the FAQ doesn't say "you can only have 3 free actions per round," so any questions stemming from that false premise are skewed.If you don't expect people to use the exact example given in the FAQ, then why write it?
Exactly. Putting a number out, even as a suggested guideline, will bear weight due to Paizo putting it in writing. Pretending that it doesn't is ridiculously naive. DMs deciding to nerf all ranged people would invoke this saying "hey if paizo suggests 3-5 then that's good enough for me".
Now, I am debating this but my own thoughts are that the whole game needs a good nerfing so I am not against this ruling/suggestion, only against the ridiculous stance that Paizo putting a suggestion in a FAQ isn't gonna have a real world effect.
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Because god forbid the devs weigh in and say someones cute little exploit is an exploit...
I need to invest in Preparation H.
I'm sorry, I didn't realize iterative attacks granted by BAB was an exploit. I guess I'm one of those evil min/maxers. You know, being a fighter and all.
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I'll tell you what, train how to use a Pathfinder-style firearm, then try to reload it 3 times AND speak coherently about something else at the same time, in six seconds.
Or heck, verbally answer someone's question, answer your cell phone, and drop to the floor, all in six seconds. That's three free actions in one round. Then throw in "open a door" (a move action) and "light a torch with a match" (a standard action) in any order you like. Can you do it? Or do you mess up one of them? How many times have you started to say something, and stopped talking in the middle because you're doing something unrelated at the same time? Do you turn down the music in your car when you're trying to find a specific address? Your brain really can only handle a certain number of things at a time or in a short period of time.
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I'm sorry, I didn't realize iterative attacks granted by BAB was an exploit. I guess I'm one of those evil min/maxers. You know, being a fighter and all.Because god forbid the devs weigh in and say someones cute little exploit is an exploit...
I need to invest in Preparation H.
It isn't.
If you read the FAQ it basically says GMs are allowed to put caps on free actions.
Why? Because some people were saying the GM couldn't and were abusing free actions.
So they gave the GM clarification that they can cap them.
If your GM caps iterative attacks, they are wrong. But keep throwing that strawman up to avoid the actual reason the FAQ had to be answered...
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The point is: the FAQ doesn't say "you can only have 3 free actions per round," so any questions stemming from that false premise are skewed.If you don't expect people to use the exact example given in the FAQ, then why write it?Exactly. Putting a number out, even as a suggested guideline, will bear weight due to Paizo putting it in writing. Pretending that it doesn't is ridiculously naive. DMs deciding to nerf all ranged people would invoke this saying "hey if paizo suggests 3-5 then that's good enough for me".
Now, I am debating this but my own thoughts are that the whole game needs a good nerfing so I am not against this ruling/suggestion, only against the ridiculous stance that Paizo putting a suggestion in a FAQ isn't gonna have a real world effect.
What's ridiculously naive is a GM that looks at something that's a simple guideline and taking it as a hardfast rule without yielding. Especially when the FAQ itself says that "Again, these are guidelines, and the GM can allow more or fewer free actions as appropriate to the circumstances."
While this is a total non-issue for me, I suspect, as my typical gaming group has no more issue with a gunslinger able to fire six times than a wizard that can summon creatures composed entirely of fire, I imagine it's going to cause some tears in PFS play.
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It's not the basic functionality of firearms that's a problem, it's certain combos that reduce reloading to a free action, which (because there is "no limit" to how many free actions you can take in a round) effectively bypasses the action economy brakes used to balance the use of firearms.
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I'll tell you what, train how to use a Pathfinder-style firearm, then try to reload it 3 times AND speak coherently about something else at the same time, in six seconds.
not the basic functionality of firearms that's a problem, it's certain combos that reduce reloading to a free action, which (because there is "no limit" to how many free actions you can take in a round) effectively bypasses the action economy brakes used to balance the use of firearms.
I am not a game designer, I just play the game... But it seems to me that the problem here is with the abilities which reduce reload times to a free action, not with the number of free actions one can take.
The FAQ is addressing a symptom not the problem, and in doing so is bringing up legitimate questions about how closely GM's should follow this guideline. A completely reasonable GM in PFS could easily read that FAQ to mean that 3 reload actions is a good limit and then create a table variation where they limit a longbow user to 3 arrows, regardless of BAB, rapid shot, many shot, or haste. That is a completely reasonable way to read that FAQ, and I submit, that is not a good thing.
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While this is a total non-issue for me, I suspect, as my typical gaming group has no more issue with a gunslinger able to fire six times than a wizard that can summon creatures composed entirely of fire, I imagine it's going to cause some tears in PFS play.
Not to anyone who most of us will lose sleep over.
If you have a concept that depended on cheese, you may have to not use that cheese anymore, because the GM's authority to limit free actions, which was always in the book, has been restated and given some guidelines.
Boo. Hoo.
A completely reasonable GM will do what is best for his or her game, rather than feeling obligated to follow suggestions in FAQs or rulebooks.
The FAQ is addressing a symptom not the problem, and in doing so is bringing up legitimate questions about how closely GM's should follow this guideline. A completely reasonable GM in PFS could easily read that FAQ to mean that 3 reload actions is a good limit and then create a table variation where they limit a longbow user to 3 arrows, regardless of BAB, rapid shot, many shot, or haste. That is a completely reasonable way to read that FAQ, and I submit, that is not a good thing.
Agreed, but I did specifically call out PFS, where GM's don't have the same flexibility as a home game.
It's not the basic functionality of firearms that's a problem, it's certain combos that reduce reloading to a free action, which (because there is "no limit" to how many free actions you can take in a round) effectively bypasses the action economy brakes used to balance the use of firearms.
So... gunslingers shouldn't full attack with their namesake weapon?
I get that there are other things to do with a full BAB, but getting more attacks is the most effective use of one.
And if the point is point-blank shot, step up and slash somebody with a melee weapon to reload the gun later, why not make feats and deeds that reflect that idea? Pistol whip is nowhere near that sort of thing.
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It's not the basic functionality of firearms that's a problem, it's certain combos that reduce reloading to a free action, which (because there is "no limit" to how many free actions you can take in a round) effectively bypasses the action economy brakes used to balance the use of firearms.
I would suggest either fixing the combos that reduce reloading, or place a limit on free actions for the Gunslinger based on how many times the devs think they should be able to reload in a round.
The rules for a certain class are breaking stuff. Using a chainsaw for surgery is a bad idea.|
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I'll tell you what, train how to use a Pathfinder-style firearm, then try to reload it 3 times AND speak coherently about something else at the same time, in six seconds.
not the basic functionality of firearms that's a problem, it's certain combos that reduce reloading to a free action, which (because there is "no limit" to how many free actions you can take in a round) effectively bypasses the action economy brakes used to balance the use of firearms.I am not a game designer, I just play the game... But it seems to me that the problem here is with the abilities which reduce reload times to a free action, not with the number of free actions one can take.
The FAQ is addressing a symptom not the problem, and in doing so is bringing up legitimate questions about how closely GM's should follow this guideline. A completely reasonable GM in PFS could easily read that FAQ to mean that 3 reload actions is a good limit and then create a table variation where they limit a longbow user to 3 arrows, regardless of BAB, rapid shot, many shot, or haste. That is a completely reasonable way to read that FAQ, and I submit, that is not a good thing.
100% agree.
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I am not a game designer, I just play the game... But it seems to me that the problem here is with the abilities which reduce reload times to a free action, not with the number of free actions one can take.
The FAQ is addressing a symptom not the problem, and in doing so is bringing up legitimate questions about how closely GM's should follow this guideline. A completely reasonable GM in PFS could easily read that FAQ to mean that 3 reload actions is a good limit and then create a table variation where they limit a longbow user to 3 arrows, regardless of BAB, rapid shot, many shot, or haste. That is a completely reasonable way to read that FAQ, and I submit, that is not a good thing.
If the problem is firearm balance, then the answer would seem to be a fix specific to firearms, rather than strengthening a limit that applies to other things.
Right now, we think firearm balance is just fine if the GM sets reasonable limits to the number of free actions a character can take. Thus the FAQ, which restates the Core Rulebook rule that the GM can limit how many free actions a character can take.
Rather than making a sweeping errata to weapon cords or firearms, we're taking a gentle approach and reminding everyone that there's already a rule on the books that allows the GM to set limits to how many free actions a character can take in the round. No rule change, no errata, just a reminder that the GM is the final arbiter of the game.
Using a chainsaw for surgery is a bad idea.
If you think reminding people of a rule that's already in the game is the design equivalent of "chainsaw for surgery," you need to take a step back and think about what you're really saying.
I frankly don't see what the big deal about this FAQ is. It affects absolutely NOTHING because of those hedging phrases at the beginning and end of it. Maybe unnecessary, but it doesn't affect anything but the tables of GMs who are just itching for any semi-valid excuse to ban or change something, and it's not like games with people like that are all sunshine and rainbows anyway.
Though:
Or heck, verbally answer someone's question, answer your cell phone, and drop to the floor, all in six seconds. That's three free actions in one round. Then throw in "open a door" (a move action) and "light a torch with a match" (a standard action) in any order you like.
This is an example/bundle of activities that kind of illustrates how Free actions work reasonably already.
The only thing I see a problem with there is "lighting a torch with a match", since IRL you're probably going to take longer than 6 seconds just getting the thing to catch fire properly after fumbling with the matchbook and lighting the match.
The rest can be done very easily in a span of 6 seconds, since a lot of them can be done simultaneously (giving someone your answer while you open the door with one hand and answering the phone with the other).
Free actions are supposed to be sort of "incidentals" things that happen as a part of what you're doing already, or at least that's how I've always seen them.
Firing a bow is thus unaffected; The action "firing a bow" includes the Free action to draw the arrow. Your BaB and Feats says "You get this many attacks", and you get that many attacks. Regardless of how many incidental actions lead up to that attack.
If your GM is enough of a hardass to limit you to half your normal number of attacks he's probably enough of a hardass to go "Look, you bent your elbow, reached your arm back, and closed your hand around the arrow. That's three free actions. Hey, don't look so glum. Next round you can bring your arm forward, straighten your elbow, and nock the arrow, and the round after that you can fire. Isn't archery fun?"
The only thing I see a problem with there is "lighting a torch with a match", since IRL you're probably going to take longer than 6 seconds just getting the thing to catch fire properly after fumbling with the matchbook and lighting the match.
The Core Rulebook lists "lighting a torch with a tindertwig" as a standard action, that's why I used it in my example.
The only thing I see a problem with there is "lighting a torch with a match", since IRL you're probably going to take longer than 6 seconds just getting the thing to catch fire properly after fumbling with the matchbook and lighting the match.The Core Rulebook lists "lighting a torch with a tindertwig" as a standard action, that's why I used it in my example.
Yar, I get that. Just replying to the "do it in real life" part of it.
You guys do realize that you can ignore absolutely everything PF puts in writing if you want to, right? Even if they had said 'You get three free actions per round, period', you're under no obligation to utilize that rule in your game.
(Blah blah PFS blah)
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You guys do realize that you can ignore absolutely everything PF puts in writing if you want to, right? Even if they had said 'You get three free actions per round, period', you're under no obligation to utilize that rule in your game.
(Blah blah PFS blah)
But, but...if it is written this way I can't scream at my GM that they have to do it!
You guys do realize that you can ignore absolutely everything PF puts in writing if you want to, right? Even if they had said 'You get three free actions per round, period', you're under no obligation to utilize that rule in your game.
I know it, I wish a few of the GMs I've had in my life knew it. I know at least one who'll likely use the FAQs to hinder players more than help if he reads it. I don't play with him anymore, but I know he definitely will.
(Blah blah PFS blah)
I have many horror stories of people disregarding or using their own interpretation of rules in that setting...
I'll tell you what, train how to use a Pathfinder-style firearm, then try to reload it 3 times AND speak coherently about something else at the same time, in six seconds.
Or heck, verbally answer someone's question, answer your cell phone, and drop to the floor, all in six seconds. That's three free actions in one round. Then throw in "open a door" (a move action) and "light a torch with a match" (a standard action) in any order you like. Can you do it? Or do you mess up one of them? How many times have you started to say something, and stopped talking in the middle because you're doing something unrelated at the same time? Do you turn down the music in your car when you're trying to find a specific address? Your brain really can only handle a certain number of things at a time or in a short period of time.
or more importantly, the other players can only handle THAT player trying to use all his/her free actions to the utmost awesomeness for so long.
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I'll tell you what, train how to use a Pathfinder-style firearm, then try to reload it 3 times AND speak coherently about something else at the same time, in six seconds.
Or heck, verbally answer someone's question, answer your cell phone, and drop to the floor, all in six seconds. That's three free actions in one round. Then throw in "open a door" (a move action) and "light a torch with a match" (a standard action) in any order you like. Can you do it? Or do you mess up one of them? How many times have you started to say something, and stopped talking in the middle because you're doing something unrelated at the same time? Do you turn down the music in your car when you're trying to find a specific address? Your brain really can only handle a certain number of things at a time or in a short period of time.
Or heck Sean,
Why don't you try swinging a 10 lb great sword 4 times in 6 seconds, hitting with each swing. Or, try putting 7 arrows, on target, with a compound bow, at 100 ft, in 6 seconds. Or, try running 41 miles per hour.Sorry Sean, but this is not really a good argument. Every class in the system does non magical things that are flat out impossible. So harping on loading a breach action shotgun 8 times in 6 seconds just doesn't cut it.
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Rather than making a sweeping errata to weapon cords or firearms, we're taking a gentle approach and reminding everyone that there's already a rule on the books that allows the GM to set limits to how many free actions a character can take in the round. No rule change, no errata, just a reminder that the GM is the final arbiter of the game.
If shooting a bow 8 times per round is okay, but reloading a firearm 8 times per round is not, we would prefer that to be part of the rules.
Combat is such a huge part of the game that the rules for combat should not be 'do whatever you feel is right', because every player/DM will have a different feeling of what is right.
And free action weapon cords are silly. Make them move action weapon cords and the game would be better.
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And free action weapon cords are silly. Make them move action weapon cords and the game would be better.
I agree. Except recovering a weapon with a weapon cord is a swift action, not a free action.
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It's a guideline that's been on the books for 10 years. Why complain now, and not then?
So, how come the number of iterative attacks my fighter can take quadruples over the course of the game (not to even get into TWF or Rapid Shot or the like), yet the number of free actions he can take is the same stagnant number at level 20 as it was at level 1?
The example didn't mention the "3" increasing with levels at all, so...
It might be worth discussing how PFS will be interpreting the guideline. As others have said, we're aware of the rules saying there may be limits, but I think most of us would have assumed that the PC should have at least enough free actions to reload a free action-loading weapon for each of his legal attacks - whether derived from BAB alone or including feats like rapid shot.
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The guideline of "3" as the maximum number of shots you can take with a gun has not been on the books for 10 years.
And it still isn't the guideline. The FAQ actually states:
The FAQ isn't limiting how many shots you can take with a gun, it's suggesting a reasonable limit to how many times you can reload a gun if you have the combo that allows you to reload as a free action. Stating otherwise ("3 is the max number of shots") is false and just muddles the discussion.
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And free action weapon cords are silly. Make them move action weapon cords and the game would be better.I agree. Except recovering a weapon with a weapon cord is a swift action, not a free action.
Well, the problem with the swift action weapon cord is that it would still allow you to attack twice, be disarmed, recover your weapon and then complete the rest of your full attack.
When we fence there is a martingale; a loop of leather that goes around your first three fingers. If you lose your grip on your foil the martingale prevents it from flying dangerously across the room. It also means that you don't have to move to where it landed, nor bend over to pick it up.
From the PF description of the weapon cord, it seems the same but longer; two feet.
From my experience, there's no way you could re-grip the thing after being disarmed during a full attack (or a compound attack IRL) and still complete that full attack. This is why I would go with move action and not swift action.
If you can reload a gun and a bow with equal alacrity, then you should be able to fire the gun as frequently as you fire the bow,
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So, how come the number of iterative attacks my fighter can take quadruples over the course of the game (not to even get into TWF or Rapid Shot or the like), yet the number of free actions he can take is the same stagnant number at level 20 as it was at level 1?The example didn't mention the "3" increasing with levels at all, so...
PFRPG Core Rulebook printing 5, page 188:
"Free Actions
Free actions don’t take any time at all, though there may
be limits to the number of free actions you can perform
in a turn. Free actions rarely incur attacks of opportunity.
Some common free actions are described below.
Cease Concentration on Spell
You can stop concentrating on a spell as a free action.
Drop an Item
Dropping an item in your space or into an adjacent square
is a free action.
Drop Prone
Dropping to a prone position in your space is a free action.
Speak
In general, speaking is a free action that you can perform
even when it isn’t your turn. Speaking more than a few
sentences is generally beyond the limit of a free action."
None of these items take any real focus or concentration. They are limited, by the GM, for the simple reason that you can only, reasonably, do so much in 6 seconds. Cue someone saying "but it's a fantasy game". Oddly enough people still, for the most part, expect some verisimilitude in the game anyway. Especially on mundane things that could be / are done in the real world. A full attack takes focus and concentration. Your ability to do it improves with experience. The character improves with experience based on class / BAB in delivering iterative attacks. The difference is obvious.
Why would your Fighter gain experience in speaking as a result of his Fighter skills / training? Can he suddenly speak faster (and be understood)? Could he drop something faster as a result? Will an object he drops, by opening his hand, suddenly leave his hand faster? I'm sure he is focused on, and practices, with his weapons constantly. That's why it improves. The other stuff, not so much.
You could come up with hard and fast rules for "free actions". Although they would not then be "free". And different free actions would take more, or less, time. You could micro manage the h3ll out of that 6 second round. Or you could use common sense and remember the game has a GM for a reason.