What would you do with stats 5x13, 1x14 (20 point buy)


Advice

Dark Archive

Your 5 stat increases could then turn each of those 13s to a 14, making each one interesting.

However, how would you build such a character. Would you make a versatile Jack of All Trades. What would you go for?

Richard


Wizard, all stat ups into int


A Bard, of course


This screams Monk, to me. How I'd build it though, let's see...

Oread Monk

Str 16
Dex 13
Con 13
Int 13
Wis 15
Cha 11

using 3 level up ability score increases on Dex Con and Wis, and the other two on strength to end with:

Strength 18
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 13
Wis 16
Cha 11

I'd replace Earth Affinity with Crystalline Form, and Energy Resistance with Granite Skin, and Magic Stone with Treacherous Earth. I'd take Crane Style/Crane Wing at the very least, maybe Shaitan Style and Shaitan Skin if you can fit it in to regain the acid resistance and more. Other than that I might focus on trip to keep people in the difficult terrain created by Treacherous Earth.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Reincarnated Druid, 14 in Wisdom, all stat increases in Wisdom.

Why?

Well, after 5th level, you won't really need to worry about dying, and no reincarnation will cripple you.


richard develyn wrote:

Your 5 stat increases could then turn each of those 13s to a 14, making each one interesting.

Would you make a versatile Jack of All Trades?

Richard

Sure, why not? I mean, I've already made the absolute worst choice possible with the resources I've been given. There's 19 different base classes, I could just take a level in each. How about alphabetically?


+1 to bard.
With those stats you're the real jack of all traits, master of non.
Depending on the rest of the party you can pick an archetype that helps with the party role that needs to be filled but really you can do some of everything.
You can hold yourself in melee and with ranged weapons, can buff the party, do emergency healing and are a skillmonkey on top of that. If needed you can get trapfinding via archetype.

An alternative would be a paladin/wizard/eldritch knight. With that I would suggest taking the arcane school that gives you a stat increase as bonus.


I rather enjoy this thought exercise and want to post another lol

Angel Blooded Aasimar Paladin

Str 16
Dex 13
Con 13
Int 13
Wis 13
Cha 15

With stat bumps ending up

Str 17
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 13
Wis 14
Cha 16

edited because I can't count


You can do lots of things with those kind of stats. Any straightforward full BAB character will od fine starting with 16 strength (or dex for an archer/gunslinger). Any hybrid character with a split focus (like bard, regular summoner or all-purpose cleric), or a caster who doesn't give too many saving throws (summoning, battlefield control) will work fine as well.

What I wouldn't do is a 3/4 bab melee or archer character who really wants hitting things with their weapon to be their main thing. And I'd include monk in that, as while flurry is almost at full bab, they get nothing else to help them hit. I also wouldn't do a caster who needs good saving throw DCs. Or something that really needs its secondary ability score above 14, obviously, like a TWF fighter, but I reckon very few things fall in that category. And it might still work as a dual talented human.

By the way, I really wouldn't spent too many level increases to get all those 13s up to 14s. At level 12 (so after 3 increases) most classes are probably better off with 16,14,13,13,13,13 than with 14,14,14,14,13,13.

edit: Just a note to see that how powerful you feel will depend mostly on the rolls and optimization of the rest of your party. If most of them have higher rolls and tend to play optimized characters, you kinda need something that is less ability score dependent to feel similarly powerful. In that category, I'd recommend any type of summoner, any type of caster that does a lot of summoning or a gunslinger (because hitting touch AC is easy enough anyway - I think musket master is best).


Cry.

Then make a druid with an animal companion, so SOMEONE at least can kick some tail.


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Actually, I just realized the topic title says its a point buy.

In which case, what is the point of this topic? "Look I deliberately nerfed myself, now how should I go about mitigating the drawbacks?" My advice would be: try to come up with an interesting concept for a character, rather than a concept for a set of numbers.


Well my first reaction is "nothing that relies on DCs nor need to hit full AC."

So seems one of the "Bad touch" builds floating about would work. Put the highest stat into Dex and that weapon finesse. Should be able to handle landing hits on touch AC well enough. Though I would use a 3/4 BaB class for it. Divine or magus perhaps.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

for fun:
halfling, bard (primary class)/ranger (dip for extra class skills and combat abilities)
traits: helpful (grant +4 with aid other); fate's favored (increase luck bonuses by +1)
str 11; dex 15; con 13; int 14; wis 13; cha 15
take weapon finesse- never attack an enemy, use it for aid other (to give the party heavy hitter +4 to hit so he can deal real damage); that and bardic performance should be your go to combat actions- mix in some heals/buffs as appropriate. i think there would only be like 3 skills that aren't class skills and you'd have a good amount of skill points (plus bardic knowledge and versatile performance), so you'd have a lot of that stuff handled...

for 'optimization':
idyllkin (aasimar), summoner
str 13; dex 14; con 15; int 13; wis 13; cha 15
eidolon- biggest, strongest, pouncing quadruped possible; add arms and spend feat for greatsword/falchion proficiency; keep # of natural attacks maxed out.
feats: 1-skill focus [know{any}]; 3-eldritch heritage [arcane] (pick a familiar); 5- improved familiar (switch to something that can use wands/scrolls); 7- evolved familiar [skilled{UMD}]; 9- celestial companion.

your eidolon will do so much damage your party's heavy hitter will start to question his lifestyle choices; your familiar (a celestial faerie-dragon) will fly around buffing/healing/dealing damage with wands/scrolls; and, you can do whatever you want with your turn... heal the eidolon, cast a buff, take a nap...

'you' are a jack of all trades in the sense that every round 'you' are taking hits, dealing damage, and providing magical support... but you would only have like 3 skills, that's the one downside.


Summoner +1, You don't really need to care for having bonusses then.

Evangelist Cleric or a Wizard, spezialized in buffing and Summoning will work well too.

Dark Archive

Thanks for the replies.

It intrigues me that this is considered such a poor choice for a 20 point buy.

After all, if at 20th level you end up with all 14s, your +12 raw stat bonus total is the best it could possibly be, and this is the only way to do it.

It should be the best possible allocation of stats - if we could just find the right build ...

Richard


richard develyn wrote:

Thanks for the replies.

It intrigues me that this is considered such a poor choice for a 20 point buy.

After all, if at 20th level you end up with all 14s, your +12 raw stat bonus total is the best it could possibly be, and this is the only way to do it.

It should be the best possible allocation of stats - if we could just find the right build ...

Richard

Your premise assumes that you can make equal use of a bonus in all six stats. No single base class does this. All classes get more benfit from some stats than others. That's why an 18 and a 10 is often considered better than two 14s.

*edit* and why it costs more.

- Torger

Dark Archive

Not so much a premise but a challenge on the premise that specialisation is always better.

Richard


richard develyn wrote:

Not so much a premise but a challenge on the premise that specialisation is always better.

Richard

Fair enough. Best of luck.

- Torger

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

i don't know if you read my "for 'optimization'" spoiler but i think he would stand his own against most optimized characters... of course, he does that regardless of how you assign his stats (so i'm not sure if it really supports your challenge or not)


Ask your GM to use the optional rule where you get one BUILD point per level rather than one attribute point per 4 levels (since raising a stat 18 or higher costs 4 points, this works out precisely the same for most optimized builds, but really helps unfocused builds like yours. For instance, at level 8, you'd have 8 more points to spend, so you could raise 4 of your 5 13s to 14. Or you could raise the 14 to a 17 by spending all 8 build points at that time.


richard develyn wrote:

Thanks for the replies.

It intrigues me that this is considered such a poor choice for a 20 point buy.

After all, if at 20th level you end up with all 14s, your +12 raw stat bonus total is the best it could possibly be, and this is the only way to do it.

It should be the best possible allocation of stats - if we could just find the right build ...

Richard

But you're at +2 instead of +6 or +7 where it counts. Four or five points behind. Meaning, you're not pulling your weight.

Dark Archive

@nate - I did read your post, yes, and I see what you mean. Having said that, Summoners are one of the few classes that I haven't really tried to get to grips with.

@Pupsocket - the "where it counts" is indeed the issue, and about how much more important it is to be where it counts as opposed to elsewhere.

This is also about whether you maximise strengths or minimise weaknesses.

In my group, for example, we have found that having optimised fighters with bad will saves is a liability for the party, because at some point they end up confused or dominated and turned against us.

Is it really better for a fighter to have STR 18 WIS 7 as opposed to STR 16 WIS 13?

(or WIS 12 and +1 on some other dump stat)?

Sure, the argument will be more favourable with CHA with fighters, but I still wonder whether how much sense there is in eeking out that final +1 stat bonus when it's costing you +3 somewhere else.

Richard

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Card Game, Maps, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Human Lore warden Fighter.
Put the +2 in Str.
Take Fast Learner as one of my 1st level feats.
Improvisation and Imp. Improvisation as I gain levels.
My level bumps would go to Dex, Con, Str, Str, Str


richard develyn wrote:

Your 5 stat increases could then turn each of those 13s to a 14, making each one interesting.

However, how would you build such a character. Would you make a versatile Jack of All Trades. What would you go for?

Richard

Goblin Knifemaster, with a level of Assassin. No stats below 10 and you still start out with an 18 Dexterity, plus the benefits of being Small.


13's are a waste unless you put points in them to make them even! so thats hardly 20pt buy worth!


A 13 can be useful if you need to qualify for a feat with it. Of course I can't think of any build that needs to qualify for stat-restricted feat chains on all six stats.


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What would I do if I made a point-buy character with those stats?

Stop drinking.


make a middle-aged guy.


richard develyn wrote:

Thanks for the replies.

It intrigues me that this is considered such a poor choice for a 20 point buy.

After all, if at 20th level you end up with all 14s, your +12 raw stat bonus total is the best it could possibly be, and this is the only way to do it.

Action economy and being in a party get in your way. There's often very little chance to use ALL of your stats in the same round, and even then there's diminishing returns.

Secondly if your party members do everything better than you, you're not getting called on to do anything. Graknar the barbarian will be the one lifting the gate, Tentomnipo the wizard and his giant brain will be correcting your draconic grammar and Johnson the cleric will be making the heal check.


Pupsocket wrote:
But you're at +2 instead of +6 or +7 where it counts. Four or five points behind. Meaning, you're not pulling your weight.

How do you get +7, ie a 24 or even a 22 on a 20 pt build not counting racial? Best you can buy is a 18, which is +4. Note that the OP doesn’t consider racial modifiers.

Not pulling your weight? OK, let us try a 18, 18, 7,7,7 8. Yeah, Fumduck the fighter here or Boring the wizard can fight or cast well. But fails saves every single time. How useful is it to have this great fighter who can be dominated with a snap of a finger and will turn on the party? Never makes a Perc or sense motive or Diplomacy check. THAT’S “not pulling your weight”. You have picked a selfish one dimensional build.

Richard, you build appears weak because it has too many odd numbers, thus wastes 5 points. Of course, as you level, each 13 becomes a 14. Still, a 14,14,14,14 10, 10 is better. Or 14,14, 13,13, 12,12, that’d be best. You bump one of the 14s to 16 with racial, and one of the 13s @ 4th, then keep bumping that 16 all the rest of the way. And you are right, buying low numbers is the best cluck for your buck.


The build is weak because it runs counter to the core concept of D&D/Pathfinder; you are part of a team set out to accomplish a task, not the hero.

Characters have strengths and weaknesses because that's what gives elements of the party the option to shine. Should the fighter always have a terribad will save? Probably not, but at the end of the day the fighter's built to be good at hitting things, and less good at dealing with weird mystical nonsense.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Worth remembering that if you play a caster class with level 9 spells to get to use them you will need a casting stat of at least 19


Orc Barbarian: Str 18 (22 while raging), Dex 13, Con 13 (17 while raging), Int 11, Wis 11, Cha 11

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Yeah, the problem here isn't the combination of stats, it's the wasted points.

You should only put odd stats into something you must and will raise.

Even stats should be put into whatever you are going to raise with gear.

So, you really should be 15 14 14 12 12 10 or whatever, before ability mods. You will 'always' have a dump stat, something that simply is not useful to the character 90% of the time. Likewise, you are always going to have a key stat, which you should put everything into, and you are going to have COnstitution, which governs your hit points and is important, and Dex, which affects AC and initiative and is important.

Odd stat in what you want to raise the highest. Even in everything else, and let gear do the rest of the work.

==Aelryinth


Tim Statler wrote:
Human Lore warden Fighter.

This isn't a bad idea.

Myself, I would probably put the 14 in Dex, then apply the racial +2 to Dex. That way, the character could Finesse, say, a rapier, yet have enough Strength for Power Attack and enough Int for the Expertise tree.

And Eldritch Heritage carries a 13 Cha requirement. That's a wealth of possibilities right there. All I need now is a slick feat with a 13 Wis requirement (I've always believed that Blind-Fight should have a Wisdom requirement, but it doesn't.)

Half-orcs can take Keen Scent, I know that.

Hmm, I've always liked Monkey Style...

-Matt


16, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12 ain't bad if u put level increases in 16, a d depending on build, add racial to either 12 or 16.


I don't think this looks too bad. I could easily play a melee cleric or inquisitor with this. I'll admit, I would lean more towards inquisitor or try either onispawn tiefling or human with dual talent if I was to make a cleric, but these scores aren't that bad really.

But hey, I'm the jerk that freaks out that everyone is willing to drop their CHA down to 5, so what do I know.


I personally like to give my point buy characters one 8 and the rest 10 or higher. That way I have a weakness but it's not a crippling one.


DrDeth wrote:
Pupsocket wrote:
But you're at +2 instead of +6 or +7 where it counts. Four or five points behind. Meaning, you're not pulling your weight.
How do you get +7, ie a 24 or even a 22 on a 20 pt build not counting racial? Best you can buy is a 18, which is +4. Note that the OP doesn’t consider racial modifiers.

I missed the bit about racial modifiers. So make it "+5 or +6" instead: 16 or 18 starting stat, +4 from leveling up, same way the OP got abunch of +2's.

DrDeth wrote:


Not pulling your weight? OK, let us try a 18, 18, 7,7,7 8. Yeah, Fumduck the fighter here or Boring the wizard can fight or cast well. But fails saves every single time.

That's not a good stat array for 20 points either, but whatever.

Assume Wizard with 7 Wis vs. Fighter with 13 Wis. The Wizard's Will save equals the Fighter's at levels 2,4,5,6,7,9, He's actually ahead at level 8 and at levels 10-20, and a single point behind at levels 1 and 3. And he has 7 stat buy points to work with over the Fighter.

Meanwhile, his familiar wins at Perception - or maybe he takes a non-scouting familiar and settles for +2 from Alertness; that puts him at a single point behind the "balanced" Fighter, and with 18+ Int, he can easily afford to keep the skill up. And it doesn't even matter, because the party Perception specialist is 8 points ahead of both of them.

He also spends a single trait to curbstomp the fighter at Diplomacy.

With a few exceptions - mainly saving throws and Perception - there's no difference between being mediocre and being terrible. And ability scores are not the only - or even the best - way of covering weaknesses.


An Transmuter Enhancement Wizard would be able to turn one of their physical stats to a 14 too at first level and then a few others later on too - dex probably. That would be the best use in my mind as Transmutation doesn't rely too much on Save DC's and with Race Bonus you could start with a 16 Int.

Sorcerer then Dragon Disciple to hopefully end up with some respectability in the stat region may be viable too but it would be a hard slog.


Rycaut wrote:
Worth remembering that if you play a caster class with level 9 spells to get to use them you will need a casting stat of at least 19

Done easily. You start with a 14, with racial that’s a 16, and if you can’t get a +4 item by 17th level you’re so darn useless you might as well give up.


Phneri wrote:

The build is weak because it runs counter to the core concept of D&D/Pathfinder; you are part of a team set out to accomplish a task, not the hero.

Characters have strengths and weaknesses because that's what gives elements of the party the option to shine. Should the fighter always have a terribad will save? Probably not, but at the end of the day the fighter's built to be good at hitting things, and less good at dealing with weird mystical nonsense.

You’re right about the “you are part of a team set out to accomplish a task, not the hero” but you drew the opposite conclusion. You *ARE* part of a team which is why you don’t need super-awesome stats to play a integral part of a team. Yes, due to the odd numbers, this particular build is weak, but a 14,14, 13,13, 12,12, bumped to a 16,14,13,13,12,12 with racial is very do-able. The 13’s can go in stats where 13’s are usable like Int, where some feats require it, or where you can afford a 4th level bump- that leaves you 4 bumps to your Prime.

Also as part of a team you can’t afford to be the weakest link. A Warrior with a super poor Will save can actually be a detriment to a team.


Lore Oracle could achieve decent stats too but as they are mainly in Intelligence and Charisma there might be a few survivability issues.

Dark Archive

I take the point about the odd numbers.

Looking at total raw stat bonus, with the "13" build you get +7 levels 1-3, +8 4-7, +9 8-11, +10 12-15, +11 16-19 and +12 at level 20.

(Assuming you use your stat bonus to even out the odds)

If you even it out a bit, i.e. 12, 12, 14, 13, 13, 14, then you are +1 better up to level 11, the same from 12 to 19 and one worse at level 20.

So in terms of sheer stat bonus power this is actually a better build.

Evening it out one more is worse than the above but better than the "13". ie. 12, 12, 14, 12, 12, 15 puts you +1 better up to level 7, then the same up to 15 and then one worse from 16 to 20.

Richard

P.S. Note, however, the "13" requirements for many feats might counter-argue this.


There is a reason getting a 16 and a 10 is more expensive than two 13s (or a 12 and a 14). This reason is that a 16 and a 10 tends to be a lot more useful. So your argument that 14,14,13,13,12,12 is the most powerful pointbuy is pretty debatable to begin with.

However, once you start putting level increases into it your point buy is off even worse. You increase a 13 to a 14. That's worth two point-buy points. Someone else increases their highest score of 16 to a 17, an increased value of three point-buy points. Next level you increase another 13 to 14 for another gain of two points, while the other player increases their 17 to an 18, gaining 4 point buy points. By level 20, your ability scores are worth 32 points, while the person who started with a 16 and increased that has 41 points worth of ability scores. As well as a much better class layout, presumably, since you had to do some werid multiclassing to make all 6 of your ability scores good for something.

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