A Bard, of course
This screams Monk, to me. How I'd build it though, let's see...
Oread Monk
Str 16
Dex 13
Con 13
Int 13
Wis 15
Cha 11
using 3 level up ability score increases on Dex Con and Wis, and the other two on strength to end with:
Strength 18
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 13
Wis 16
Cha 11
I'd replace Earth Affinity with Crystalline Form, and Energy Resistance with Granite Skin, and Magic Stone with Treacherous Earth. I'd take Crane Style/Crane Wing at the very least, maybe Shaitan Style and Shaitan Skin if you can fit it in to regain the acid resistance and more. Other than that I might focus on trip to keep people in the difficult terrain created by Treacherous Earth.
Your 5 stat increases could then turn each of those 13s to a 14, making each one interesting.
Would you make a versatile Jack of All Trades?
Richard
Sure, why not? I mean, I've already made the absolute worst choice possible with the resources I've been given. There's 19 different base classes, I could just take a level in each. How about alphabetically?
+1 to bard.
With those stats you're the real jack of all traits, master of non.
Depending on the rest of the party you can pick an archetype that helps with the party role that needs to be filled but really you can do some of everything.
You can hold yourself in melee and with ranged weapons, can buff the party, do emergency healing and are a skillmonkey on top of that. If needed you can get trapfinding via archetype.
An alternative would be a paladin/wizard/eldritch knight. With that I would suggest taking the arcane school that gives you a stat increase as bonus.
I rather enjoy this thought exercise and want to post another lol
Angel Blooded Aasimar Paladin
Str 16
Dex 13
Con 13
Int 13
Wis 13
Cha 15
With stat bumps ending up
Str 17
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 13
Wis 14
Cha 16
edited because I can't count
Cry.
Then make a druid with an animal companion, so SOMEONE at least can kick some tail.
Well my first reaction is "nothing that relies on DCs nor need to hit full AC."
So seems one of the "Bad touch" builds floating about would work. Put the highest stat into Dex and that weapon finesse. Should be able to handle landing hits on touch AC well enough. Though I would use a 3/4 BaB class for it. Divine or magus perhaps.
traits: helpful (grant +4 with aid other); fate's favored (increase luck bonuses by +1)
str 11; dex 15; con 13; int 14; wis 13; cha 15
take weapon finesse- never attack an enemy, use it for aid other (to give the party heavy hitter +4 to hit so he can deal real damage); that and bardic performance should be your go to combat actions- mix in some heals/buffs as appropriate. i think there would only be like 3 skills that aren't class skills and you'd have a good amount of skill points (plus bardic knowledge and versatile performance), so you'd have a lot of that stuff handled...
str 13; dex 14; con 15; int 13; wis 13; cha 15
eidolon- biggest, strongest, pouncing quadruped possible; add arms and spend feat for greatsword/falchion proficiency; keep # of natural attacks maxed out.
feats: 1-skill focus [know{any}]; 3-eldritch heritage [arcane] (pick a familiar); 5- improved familiar (switch to something that can use wands/scrolls); 7- evolved familiar [skilled{UMD}]; 9- celestial companion.
your eidolon will do so much damage your party's heavy hitter will start to question his lifestyle choices; your familiar (a celestial faerie-dragon) will fly around buffing/healing/dealing damage with wands/scrolls; and, you can do whatever you want with your turn... heal the eidolon, cast a buff, take a nap...
'you' are a jack of all trades in the sense that every round 'you' are taking hits, dealing damage, and providing magical support... but you would only have like 3 skills, that's the one downside.
Summoner +1, You don't really need to care for having bonusses then.
Evangelist Cleric or a Wizard, spezialized in buffing and Summoning will work well too.
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Thanks for the replies.
It intrigues me that this is considered such a poor choice for a 20 point buy.
After all, if at 20th level you end up with all 14s, your +12 raw stat bonus total is the best it could possibly be, and this is the only way to do it.
It should be the best possible allocation of stats - if we could just find the right build ...
Richard
Thanks for the replies.
It intrigues me that this is considered such a poor choice for a 20 point buy.
After all, if at 20th level you end up with all 14s, your +12 raw stat bonus total is the best it could possibly be, and this is the only way to do it.
It should be the best possible allocation of stats - if we could just find the right build ...
Richard
Your premise assumes that you can make equal use of a bonus in all six stats. No single base class does this. All classes get more benfit from some stats than others. That's why an 18 and a 10 is often considered better than two 14s.
*edit* and why it costs more.
- Torger
Not so much a premise but a challenge on the premise that specialisation is always better.
Richard
Fair enough. Best of luck.
- Torger
i don't know if you read my "for 'optimization'" spoiler but i think he would stand his own against most optimized characters... of course, he does that regardless of how you assign his stats (so i'm not sure if it really supports your challenge or not)
Thanks for the replies.
It intrigues me that this is considered such a poor choice for a 20 point buy.
After all, if at 20th level you end up with all 14s, your +12 raw stat bonus total is the best it could possibly be, and this is the only way to do it.
It should be the best possible allocation of stats - if we could just find the right build ...
Richard
But you're at +2 instead of +6 or +7 where it counts. Four or five points behind. Meaning, you're not pulling your weight.
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@nate - I did read your post, yes, and I see what you mean. Having said that, Summoners are one of the few classes that I haven't really tried to get to grips with.
@Pupsocket - the "where it counts" is indeed the issue, and about how much more important it is to be where it counts as opposed to elsewhere.
This is also about whether you maximise strengths or minimise weaknesses.
In my group, for example, we have found that having optimised fighters with bad will saves is a liability for the party, because at some point they end up confused or dominated and turned against us.
Is it really better for a fighter to have STR 18 WIS 7 as opposed to STR 16 WIS 13?
(or WIS 12 and +1 on some other dump stat)?
Sure, the argument will be more favourable with CHA with fighters, but I still wonder whether how much sense there is in eeking out that final +1 stat bonus when it's costing you +3 somewhere else.
Richard
Your 5 stat increases could then turn each of those 13s to a 14, making each one interesting.
However, how would you build such a character. Would you make a versatile Jack of All Trades. What would you go for?
Richard
Goblin Knifemaster, with a level of Assassin. No stats below 10 and you still start out with an 18 Dexterity, plus the benefits of being Small.
13's are a waste unless you put points in them to make them even! so thats hardly 20pt buy worth!
A 13 can be useful if you need to qualify for a feat with it. Of course I can't think of any build that needs to qualify for stat-restricted feat chains on all six stats.
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What would I do if I made a point-buy character with those stats?
Stop drinking.
Thanks for the replies.
It intrigues me that this is considered such a poor choice for a 20 point buy.
After all, if at 20th level you end up with all 14s, your +12 raw stat bonus total is the best it could possibly be, and this is the only way to do it.
Action economy and being in a party get in your way. There's often very little chance to use ALL of your stats in the same round, and even then there's diminishing returns.
Secondly if your party members do everything better than you, you're not getting called on to do anything. Graknar the barbarian will be the one lifting the gate, Tentomnipo the wizard and his giant brain will be correcting your draconic grammar and Johnson the cleric will be making the heal check.
But you're at +2 instead of +6 or +7 where it counts. Four or five points behind. Meaning, you're not pulling your weight.
How do you get +7, ie a 24 or even a 22 on a 20 pt build not counting racial? Best you can buy is a 18, which is +4. Note that the OP doesn’t consider racial modifiers.
Not pulling your weight? OK, let us try a 18, 18, 7,7,7 8. Yeah, Fumduck the fighter here or Boring the wizard can fight or cast well. But fails saves every single time. How useful is it to have this great fighter who can be dominated with a snap of a finger and will turn on the party? Never makes a Perc or sense motive or Diplomacy check. THAT’S “not pulling your weight”. You have picked a selfish one dimensional build.
Richard, you build appears weak because it has too many odd numbers, thus wastes 5 points. Of course, as you level, each 13 becomes a 14. Still, a 14,14,14,14 10, 10 is better. Or 14,14, 13,13, 12,12, that’d be best. You bump one of the 14s to 16 with racial, and one of the 13s @ 4th, then keep bumping that 16 all the rest of the way. And you are right, buying low numbers is the best cluck for your buck.
Orc Barbarian: Str 18 (22 while raging), Dex 13, Con 13 (17 while raging), Int 11, Wis 11, Cha 11
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Yeah, the problem here isn't the combination of stats, it's the wasted points.
You should only put odd stats into something you must and will raise.
Even stats should be put into whatever you are going to raise with gear.
So, you really should be 15 14 14 12 12 10 or whatever, before ability mods. You will 'always' have a dump stat, something that simply is not useful to the character 90% of the time. Likewise, you are always going to have a key stat, which you should put everything into, and you are going to have COnstitution, which governs your hit points and is important, and Dex, which affects AC and initiative and is important.
Odd stat in what you want to raise the highest. Even in everything else, and let gear do the rest of the work.
==Aelryinth
Human Lore warden Fighter.
This isn't a bad idea.
Myself, I would probably put the 14 in Dex, then apply the racial +2 to Dex. That way, the character could Finesse, say, a rapier, yet have enough Strength for Power Attack and enough Int for the Expertise tree.
And Eldritch Heritage carries a 13 Cha requirement. That's a wealth of possibilities right there. All I need now is a slick feat with a 13 Wis requirement (I've always believed that Blind-Fight should have a Wisdom requirement, but it doesn't.)
Half-orcs can take Keen Scent, I know that.
Hmm, I've always liked Monkey Style...
-Matt
16, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12 ain't bad if u put level increases in 16, a d depending on build, add racial to either 12 or 16.
I don't think this looks too bad. I could easily play a melee cleric or inquisitor with this. I'll admit, I would lean more towards inquisitor or try either onispawn tiefling or human with dual talent if I was to make a cleric, but these scores aren't that bad really.
But hey, I'm the jerk that freaks out that everyone is willing to drop their CHA down to 5, so what do I know.
I personally like to give my point buy characters one 8 and the rest 10 or higher. That way I have a weakness but it's not a crippling one.
But you're at +2 instead of +6 or +7 where it counts. Four or five points behind. Meaning, you're not pulling your weight.How do you get +7, ie a 24 or even a 22 on a 20 pt build not counting racial? Best you can buy is a 18, which is +4. Note that the OP doesn’t consider racial modifiers.
I missed the bit about racial modifiers. So make it "+5 or +6" instead: 16 or 18 starting stat, +4 from leveling up, same way the OP got abunch of +2's.
Not pulling your weight? OK, let us try a 18, 18, 7,7,7 8. Yeah, Fumduck the fighter here or Boring the wizard can fight or cast well. But fails saves every single time.
That's not a good stat array for 20 points either, but whatever.
Assume Wizard with 7 Wis vs. Fighter with 13 Wis. The Wizard's Will save equals the Fighter's at levels 2,4,5,6,7,9, He's actually ahead at level 8 and at levels 10-20, and a single point behind at levels 1 and 3. And he has 7 stat buy points to work with over the Fighter.
Meanwhile, his familiar wins at Perception - or maybe he takes a non-scouting familiar and settles for +2 from Alertness; that puts him at a single point behind the "balanced" Fighter, and with 18+ Int, he can easily afford to keep the skill up. And it doesn't even matter, because the party Perception specialist is 8 points ahead of both of them.
He also spends a single trait to curbstomp the fighter at Diplomacy.
With a few exceptions - mainly saving throws and Perception - there's no difference between being mediocre and being terrible. And ability scores are not the only - or even the best - way of covering weaknesses.
Worth remembering that if you play a caster class with level 9 spells to get to use them you will need a casting stat of at least 19
Done easily. You start with a 14, with racial that’s a 16, and if you can’t get a +4 item by 17th level you’re so darn useless you might as well give up.
The build is weak because it runs counter to the core concept of D&D/Pathfinder; you are part of a team set out to accomplish a task, not the hero.
Characters have strengths and weaknesses because that's what gives elements of the party the option to shine. Should the fighter always have a terribad will save? Probably not, but at the end of the day the fighter's built to be good at hitting things, and less good at dealing with weird mystical nonsense.
You’re right about the “you are part of a team set out to accomplish a task, not the hero” but you drew the opposite conclusion. You *ARE* part of a team which is why you don’t need super-awesome stats to play a integral part of a team. Yes, due to the odd numbers, this particular build is weak, but a 14,14, 13,13, 12,12, bumped to a 16,14,13,13,12,12 with racial is very do-able. The 13’s can go in stats where 13’s are usable like Int, where some feats require it, or where you can afford a 4th level bump- that leaves you 4 bumps to your Prime.
Also as part of a team you can’t afford to be the weakest link. A Warrior with a super poor Will save can actually be a detriment to a team.
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I take the point about the odd numbers.
Looking at total raw stat bonus, with the "13" build you get +7 levels 1-3, +8 4-7, +9 8-11, +10 12-15, +11 16-19 and +12 at level 20.
(Assuming you use your stat bonus to even out the odds)
If you even it out a bit, i.e. 12, 12, 14, 13, 13, 14, then you are +1 better up to level 11, the same from 12 to 19 and one worse at level 20.
So in terms of sheer stat bonus power this is actually a better build.
Evening it out one more is worse than the above but better than the "13". ie. 12, 12, 14, 12, 12, 15 puts you +1 better up to level 7, then the same up to 15 and then one worse from 16 to 20.
Richard
P.S. Note, however, the "13" requirements for many feats might counter-argue this.