I am about to start running a Rise of the Runelords AEAP and one of my players has requested to play a summoner with the Synergist archetype. I have some experience with PF but mostly limited to the core rules. At first glance it seems the Synergist gets practically all of the benefits of the eidolon without the key disadvantage that taking out the summoner takes out the eidolon. At least in theory, this disadvantage had always been the thing that has kept me from believing the summoner itself is overpowered. The character and eidolon become one and the same which seems like a huge power boost. Tons of hp, AC, saves, high BAB and lot of versatility. It Almost seems like playing a 2nd or 3rd level character right off the bat. I am giving my players the individual option of using either the core rulebook only with 20 point buy and some bonus equipment or using anything available in the PRD with a 15 point buy. Game would be starting at 1st level.
So what is your opinion and experience with the Synergist archetype? I have never had a player play a summoner or a Synergist for that matter in my campaigns and I would like some advice.
Is the synthesist overpowered? Some say yes for the reasons you have stated. Others say no because of action economy (among other things). Large threads on the topic so I won't go into it.
The problem with the synthesist is that it replaces physical attributes so the decrease to 15 point buy would not hurt it at all.
The biggest issue with the synthesist is that it is very much for advanced players only, due to the vast number of rulings required to make it actually work (like how healing "temporary" hit points works, how it heals up physical damage etc.)
I would suggest using this version. It removes the physical attribute replacement and instead gives an enhancement bonus to those stats while the synthesist "power suit" is worn.
At least in theory, this disadvantage had always been the thing that has kept me from believing the summoner itself is overpowered.
he cant cast and attack in the same turn.
Anyway synthesist easiest class to break, if you sure player will play it for fun then it is ok, but most people will min-max it and ruin game for others.
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its too powerful because it breaks what paizo fixed in pathfinder with the new polymorph rules.
to really fix them for stats/abilities, you need to convert the synthesist fused form to work within the polymorph rules, not 3.5e polymorph rules.
for bipedal form for example. give them the option of strong, agile or tough eidolon.
for a strong eidolon at 1st level if you change the eidolon base form to grant +2 temporary size bonus to Str, similar to a wild shape spell effect based on Alter Self. at 5th level you allow them to do +4 str, -2 dex similar to a Beast Shape II. at 9th level +6 str, -4 dex, similar to a beast shape III effect. at higher levels you can lower out the dex penalty or add in a con bonus. making it a strong and tough eidolon, or a strong and quick eidolon.
An agile eidolon would start out with +2 dex, move up to +4 dex, -2 str, etc.
A tough eidolon would start out with +2 con, move up to +4 con, -2 dex, etc.
they don't need the natural armor bonus from beast shape spells, as they already get a great natural armor advancement from the eidolon progression. You ignore the +str/dex entry in eidolon advancement, and the +ability score increase. every 4HD. at 8 HD maybe compensate by allowing them to summon the Eidolon as a full round action instead of 1 minute. without having to use a spell. or allow him to summon the eidolon and apply the advanced template to his physical stats for 1 round per level. the improved ability score evolutions could apply normally, using evolution points to tweak the polymorph effect and enhance bonuses, add bonuses or cancel out the penalties.
but it would be a completely houseruled fix to synthesist.
otherwise its awfully hard to resist just having an 8 str, 8 dex, 13 con character, who puts all his points into mental, and uses a base 16 str, 12 dex, 13 con. =P
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I REALLY dislike the stat replacement for this archetype...
However a well played normal summoner will cause WAY more havoc then a synth will. A synth can cast OR attack. The normal one can do BOTH. And while there are a lot of people who seem to think that the summoner list is weak for some reason (seriously folks? They get haste a level before the wizard does for crying out loud), this just is not the case. However, it is EASIER to look OPed in games with a synth if your in a group of not very optimized players.
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they get haste as a 2nd level spell, but character level wise, its around the same level 4th/5th.
most of the spells they get "early", they would get normally as a wizard of the same character level.
but yes, the action economy of the synthesist isn't too bad.
and the restriction of not really being able to wear armor means usually the synthesist will self buff before going in.
that and they can't cast spells if they don't take the biped form, usually stops them from being a low level pounce character.
What is the rules question?
I probably should have posted this in Advice. Sorry for that.
I appeciate the feedback everyone. I am sure this has been discussed to death in other threads in the past but I am relatively new to Pathfinder, having just adopted it about six months ago. I have a bit to chew on. I will search the forums for synthesist discussions and make my decision from there. One of the excellent points that I didn't consider was the fact that it breaks the polymorph SOP in PF. Thank you for that.
lets take a look:
pay attention to the little box on the right saying:
"FYI!
This archetype is banned in Pathfinder's organized play campaign."
And linking to a page reading:
Alternate class abilities: alchemical simulacrum discovery, alchemical zombie discovery, doppelganger simulacrum discovery, and greater alchemical simulacrum discovery are not legal for play.
Archetypes: broodmaster summoner, clone master alchemist, gravewalker witch, pack lord druid, master summoner, reincarnated druid, synthesist summoner, undead lord cleric, vivisectionist alchemist archetypes are not legal for play.Yes, you CAN break a game with a Synthesist Summoner. You can do so big time. It's intensely abusable and the stuff you can end up with is sick.
The question is: What is the intent of your player. Have a talk and see what he is aiming for(e.g. what kind of evolutions and stuff his eidolon would have 10 levels later)...if he's being stylish about it, sure, let him play.
If he ends up with a huge pouncing(alternatively: Dimensional dervishing) eidolon with 7 primary natural attacks with rend, then softly shake your head and say "No way".
But isnt paragon surge oracle pfs legal?
One thing I would make sure of if you let your player roll this Archetype is that even though he has the Eidolon's physical ability scores for combat sake, he doesn't actually have those scores. So if he wanted to take Power Attack, his character still needs 13 Strength. His Eidolon's physical scores are irrelevant when it's time for the character to qualify for stuff. Not that 13 Strength is hard to accommodate, but make sure he realizes the consequences of making every single physical score a dump stat.
I appeciate the feedback everyone. I am sure this has been discussed to death in other threads in the past but I am relatively new to Pathfinder, having just adopted it about six months ago. I have a bit to chew on. I will search the forums for synthesist discussions and make my decision from there. One of the excellent points that I didn't consider was the fact that it breaks the polymorph SOP in PF. Thank you for that.
Basically the summoner in general is an issue in a group like yours. If you are new to the game (and thus are only partially familiar with the 'best' or 'most powerful builds') then the summoner will cause issues. Because the summoner character gets to pick and choose just about everything they and the eidolon gets. Its very easy to optimize. You just pick things that keep adding to offense/defense/whatever you want to be good at. Other characters have the same amount of 'power' but are harder to optimize because everything isnt a choice. For instance a druid optimized for combat with one of the best animal companions (one with pounce) is probably equal to a summoner, but a player has to work for that, put effort into his choices. And even then the druid still gets stuff like trackless step, which doesnt really add to its power. A summoner doesnt have to deal with that.
So if your group is new, or doesnt normally put alot of effort into optmization, the summoner can throw things off unless the player deliberately chooses flavorful/less directly powerful options.
A synthesist sort of adds to this problem, by as people have said, bypassing the change made to polymorph. It gives up a rather significant element in action economy to get it, but it still has the original problem of optimization and the added perception that its 'breaking' a rule, even if it trades something to be able to break that rule.
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One thing I would make sure of if you let your player roll this Archetype is that even though he has the Eidolon's physical ability scores for combat sake, he doesn't actually have those scores. So if he wanted to take Power Attack, his character still needs 13 Strength. His Eidolon's physical scores are irrelevant when it's time for the character to qualify for stuff. Not that 13 Strength is hard to accommodate, but make sure he realizes the consequences of making every single physical score a dump stat.
was that the result of the synthesist questions thread? i remember that coming up. argument for being that you have the eidolon's strength all day long prettymuch. i'm so glad they banned it in pfs , it was a monstrous archetype.
Maybe we should move this thread to the Advice forum?
Basically irrelevant. Most of the things banned from PFS are banned for one of the following reasons:
1) Off-theme. This is the top one, and usually comes down to the campaign manager of the moment.
2) Time. If something is going to take inordinate amounts of time to run at the table, it will tend to get banned because PFS has to run in limited time slots.
3) Table Variation. If something requires a large amount of GM interpretation, and it can't be controlled for in a simple post or FAQ entry, it will be banned for that.
The Synthesist calls into question some basic things about Golarion's metaphysics (Possession is the domain of a very limited band of outsiders, and Eidolons aren't on that list.) It's very complicated and not especially well written, so moreso than the normal Summoner it requires a lot of deliberation and on-the-spot judgment calls. It also has a large number of FAQ entries without relevant errata, creating massive table variation depending on whether the GM is aware of the extra rulings. Thus, it falls under all three criteria for banning before power level is even considered.
Very well, i have to admit i was not aware of that.
However, in that case a number of other questions pop up:
Namely, why normal summoners aren't affected?
Surely if a fused eidolon is off theme, one used as a mount is not much better?
As for the time, wouldn't the doubled action economy of a summoner with an separate eidolon(which still has the same evolutions etc.) take even more time?
In regards to table variation, i have to admit i have no idea about the inherent complexity. To me, the basic synthesist seemed more straightforward than the regular summoner with an eidolon that got it's own feats and skills(and interactions thereof, e.g. a flying eidolon with reach hovering above used as mount).In other words, why is the normal summoner in?
And what is the reasoning for banning things "after power level is considered"? Because...
And why is Broodmaster also banned. That is arguably the weakest of the summoner types.
The answer is it isn't that simple.I doubt the Synthesist was banned due to being "overpowered", but more likely due to the poor writing of the rules. It is the archetype that have caused the most rules questions, and many that build one, unwittingly break the rules as written.
It doesn't help that quite a few at Paizo dislike the summoner altogether.
My problem with the synthesist is that you get to figth as well or better than the martials and cast spells almost like a full caster. And the flexibility with the spells that gives extra evolutions is just insane. It is no more powerful than a wizard at 20 but it steps on tha martials un a way the fullcasters dosent.
But i do love the flavor.
One thing I would make sure of if you let your player roll this Archetype is that even though he has the Eidolon's physical ability scores for combat sake, he doesn't actually have those scores. So if he wanted to take Power Attack, his character still needs 13 Strength. His Eidolon's physical scores are irrelevant when it's time for the character to qualify for stuff. Not that 13 Strength is hard to accommodate, but make sure he realizes the consequences of making every single physical score a dump stat.was that the result of the synthesist questions thread? i remember that coming up. argument for being that you have the eidolon's strength all day long prettymuch. i'm so glad they banned it in pfs , it was a monstrous archetype.
I wasn't aware of such a thread. This is the ruling I've always made; I wasn't aware there was any debate about it. I agree that it's over powered, but nothing a simple Banishment Spell can't fix :)
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No it's not; there are plenty of better spells, since Banishment is Will negates (and there are 7th level spells that are save-or-die with Will negates; this one just makes them go invisible and cast Summon Eidilon).
A properly built Synthasist is the dream of a "full" caster (bard-like, but with many important spells received BEFORE wizards), a full damage dealer tank (complete with insane AC and HP higher than a barbarian), and a party face (you can dump all physical stats except CON with no ill effect, leaving you solid Int/Wis/Cha scores).
Take this at level 1, 15 point buy:
Dwarf (because I want good saves) in a Quadraped (planning to pounce)
Str: 14 (7 if not with eidilon)
Int: 12
Wis: 12
Dex: 14 (7 if not with Eidilon)
Con: 14 (13 in eidilon, yes it goes down)
Chr: 16
HP: 10 (+6 temp from eidilon)
Steely Soul feat (so that my saves from dwarfness are extra high; the only relevant problem with eidilons is easily solved via feats and being a dwarf).
Limbs (arms) + claws + Pounce as evolution. Intends to rarely move to the front at low levels, as AC is pretty bad... but by level 10 he will be a 5-attack pouncing large spell-fliging monster with AC in the mid-to-high 30s.
Those stats would normally take a 29 point build. And they just keep going up as the levels progress.
I believe with the Broodmaster it is action economy. Having up to 8 Eidolons could turn out nasty. I do believe you could also wreak some havoc with 2 medium ones, even if they have to share points.
Plus a lot of questions, such as one eidolon mounted on the other.
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Yeah, the Broodmaster is banned because PFS doesn't allow more than one companion.