So, I know if you just look at Monster Manual entries, the kobolds are weaker, but when put in the hands of a PC, which race do you guys find better? I know many of you are much better builders than I, so the question I ask is, on a class by class basis, who is better? The kobold? or the Goblin?
(I mainly ask this because in a group I was in we had 1 kobold [me as a Sorc] and 1 goblin [he was a cavalier... oddly enough] and we often gotten in to random banter about which of our kind was better [of which is like having 2 kids with down syndrome arguing about who is smarter but that is a whole different matter])
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Kobolds are mechanically weaker as both a PC or NPC race. But I, and I think most players, prefer Kobolds. I have fond memories of them, especially Tucker's Kobolds.
Well they can be mechanically weaker from the get go, but one thing I noticed is that the kobold racial feats can come in handy (like the ability to fly)
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Mechanically? The +4 dex means goblins excel in the areas the two races are best at. Thematically kobolds are far stronger simply due to organization. The funny thing about theme though given that somone cited tucker's kobolds, is that the scaley dog rat men of the olden days doesn't have much in common with the modern short man draconic complex kobold.
I like the Palladium fantasy Kobolds, whose smithing was top tier quality goods just like the Dwarves. Certainly a different beast than Pathfinders.
I would probably prefer playing a Goblin in pathfinder though, seem like a crazy bunch of fools. We Be Goblins was a hoot.
Personally I like Kobolds far more then Goblins, but I've spent much of my past few years having little Kobolds tell me that they'll never forget waterworks. Personally the fact that a common flavor theme for Kobolds is that they've descended from dragons and have a culture that revolves around that is more openable to role-play then the goblin's burn-hate, writing is stealing thoughts. Certainly both are fun, I just feel that Kobolds edge out Goblins in the "feels" department.
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Why cant I hold all these feels? xD
Kobolds are in some respects the poor downtrodden underdogs of the monster worlds, even when they work together well them still get run over by a steam roller and traps? half the stuff that lives near them is either trap masters themselves or can barely be scratched by most things the Kobolds can make.
Personally I like seeing the Kobolds as these slightly alien people who dreams of a believed glory past and strive against all odds not to rule everything but to survive long enough for make sure their clan survive (and get a few good kicks in on whatever outsider they can before the end). Of course my view is just in how I experience them in the games and I tend to play them, I suppose they are more lawful then evil in my book, though they do enjoy a solid payback on the so called dominate races when the opportunity presents itself.
Played by a DM, kobolds are better.
Played by a player, goblins are simply a more mechanically powerful race.
The only point where a kobold might have anything to show against a goblin would be as a sorcerer oracle or bard. Because kobolds don't get a charisma penalty, but their gross attribute bonus total is still -4, with a -4 in a single attribute, while goblins are at 0 with a +4 in a single attribute and goblins don't suffer from light sensitivity.
Some what off topic, as goblins are in the same racial group as hobgoblins and bugbears. With the goblins being...er...somewhat...unstable, using them as typical cannon fodder ("arrow depletion units" is the technical term, I think) sounds rather far fetched. However, sending fifty goblins over the wall of a castle, or in through a hidden tunnel, or sneaking a few dozen through the gate in a supply wagon, and then just letting them run free, might be a sound tactic for a hobgoblin general.
If you played We Be Goblins, you get an idea on the havoc a few goblins can cause. Picture that in a besieged city.
Kolbolds...I never liked them. I'd rather use goblins as my bad guys. As mini-dragons, they gained no favors in my eyes.
Incidentally, I never got why goblins have a bad Charisma but no tiefling-style ability to let them be good bards. I mean, I know PF was reluctant to make changes (hence goblins remaining NE and not CE and taking no Wisdom penalties), but if the Goblins of Golarion book has the nerve to say goblins make bad barbarians because they're weak, surely it should have been consistent and said the same about goblin bards and sorcerers.
I love kobolds way more than goblins, which is why i wish paizo would have put them at least closer to the other small races in power level. They have 5rp and most of those are tied into skills that are less than optimal for pcs, trapmaking and mining.
Goblins are definitely mechanically superior, but i would still pick kobolds everytime. PF goblins set my teeth on edge.
If kobolds were mechanically equal, it'd make their arrogance too logical. ;D
Kobolds never really grasped my imagination the same way goblins did. Though while they do get access an excellent racial archetype for the gunslinger class, one on one, goblins are mechanically stronger.
Not to derail, but is the archetype in the ARG?
Not to derail, but is the archetype in the ARG?
It is. (see bottom of page)
I also like goblins better, with a caveat. PF goblins are kind of foreign to me. I always envision goblins as tricksters and tinkerers, kind of like dwarves' evil equivalent. I'm especially thinking of pre-WOW Warcraft goblins (before they became uglier halflings). PF goblins seem a lot less intelligent in the fluff which is why I find the CHA penalty a bit confusing. PF goblins are mountains of personality- I would think either INT or WIS. Instead, I just build racial outliers as PCs and homebrew them as being smarter when I GM. +4DEX is nothing to sneeze at.
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That would be kobolds, not goblins. Kobolds and dwarves are based on the same mythological creatures.
Er, what? I strongly disagree with this. Kobolds actually had two distinct origins, neither having anything to do with dwarves.
Kobolds were most commonly household spirits that could shapechange into small animals and bless/curse/manipulate their household. They were like mini-hearth gods, and people left offerings and stuff to appease them like you would to any other spirit that could mess with your life. These Kobolds were equally good, bad, or indifferent in folklore--there's no "alignment trend." This version is pretty much identical to the origin of goblins.
The other version of Kobolds are mine spirits. They were usually tricksters that screwed with miners something fierce. They made noise in the tunnels and poisoned people's ore. Specifically, they tricked people into mining Cobalt, thinking it was something more valuable, and smelting it and poisoning themselves. And yes, the name Kobold and Cobalt come from the same source because of this.
Dwarves, meanwhile, are from Norse myth, and they were just really good crafters that weren't Norse people. They weren't even necessarily short/stout/etc., they were just foreign. In fact, some sources conflate them with the svartalfar--the dark elves. And for reference, the dark elves were not black like drow, they were literally svart--swarthy. Basically, the dwarves/dark elves were probably Mediterraneans and the light elves were just other fair skinned people that weren't Norse--maybe Celts or other Germanic tribes.
Actually, the mythological kobolds were often fairly benevolent fey, occasionally warning miners of danger. They'd communicate through knocking on the walls.
Kinda sounds like you've got the flawed gnomes' side of the story. ;D
This whole discussion started from banter between two party members, right? Is this in-character or out-of-character?
OoC, sure goblins are mechanically superior.
If the discussion is in-character though, kobolds are (or pretend to be) far superior. While goblins' main accomplishments are being used as arrow-fodder, being good at burning stuff and catchy chanting. kobolds (can) claim to be of draconic descent, build respectable fortifications and put fear in mighty adventurers with their cunning traps. kobolds sometimes even serve dragons, while goblins serve orcs or ogres at best!
Never forget that (non-monstrous) PCs joke about goblins but respect/fear kobolds, often both IC and OoC.
goblins are far more likely to serve hobgoblins, which is much better than orcs or ogres (who couldn't keep a goblin tribe under control ever).
It was in character. Contrary to most goblins, he was a very proud (if slightly odd) goblin and was just slightly racist against kobolds (his character's tribe had a very bad run in with some goblins when he was a wee lad)
Goblins have a racial barbarian AT focused on biting people. That wins them a lot of points in my eyes.
However, in the hands of a GM, or players in a defensive situation, kobolds can be lethal.
If I was a general in the pathfinder world, Kobold Auxiliaries would be near the top of my list of things to obtain for my army. A heap of small size irregulars with darkvision, natural armour and a bonus to perception, traps and stealth? They would make amazing scouts and ambushers for any army.
I've played with the idea of a setting where only kobolds could be spontaneous casters of any kind- and the existence of spontaneous casters is a new and worrying thing - although I haven't run it yet.
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I propose we settle the question with an arm wrestling contest at GenCon 2014. James Jacobs can champion the goblin cause and Wolfgang Baur can lead the kobolds. Bragging rights for their monster's superiority for all eternity to the winner!
I personally like kobolds a lot more. Goblins are funny and entertaining, but they arent all that interesting. Their motivations are straight forward and fairly 2 dimensional. Granted I've loved the 'we be goblins adventurers', and my dm had me near tears as we wiped out the remains of the Licktoad tribe in the start of Jade Regeant. So its not like i dont like goblins.
But I am loving a Kobold Pirate I am playing in a skull and shackles game, and I am using the super genius games Kobold Kings rules for pc race equivalent kobolds. So they dont HAVE to be way weaker, the Koldemar described in that product are easily a match for any of the core races.
I've had loads of fun playing both crazy goblins and spiteful, self-important kobolds. They're both pretty awesome races, really.
I can see a war between a goblin tribe and a kobold tribe playing out either way. Kobolds may be better-organized, but the sheer cartoonish power of the goblins is sure to throw a spanner in the kobolds' plans.
Kobolds.
"Kobolds are defined by their class levels—they do not possess racial Hit Dice. A kobold with NPC class levels takes a –3 penalty to its CR (rather than the normal –2 penalty)"
What exactly does that mean? It means an extra level of adept or warrior. Which means a tougher enemy (more HD) and potentially more useful feats and spells. A level 5 kobold warrior is CR2 and a nasty archer (if you use crossbows). A level 9 adept is CR 6 and has a lightning bolt (9d6) and mirror image and see invisibility available.
As solos not so great, but as part of a larger mid level encounter these things can be lethal additions without breaking the CR allowance.
For players goblins are better, since the players don't get to reep the benefits of being "weak" like the GM can.
As a dm I played kobolds as a nuisance, but not a legitimate threat to human towns the way goblins and orcs can be. My kobolds have some economic dealings with them.
I believe goblins fall in the nuisance category as well.
and Kobolds are clearly superior. Pick a nice dragon blooded sorcerer and soon you have a flying fire breathing PC. Lets see goblins fly or breath fire especially at low levels!
PS I know there probably is a way for them to do so but thematically...really?
I believe goblins fall in the nuisance category as well.
goblins routinely set fires when attacking towns. Lots of fires. The goblins themselves are easy enough to kill or drive off, but the fires they set are what turns their attacks into genuine threats.
According to Goblins of Golarion, goblins are only a threat when a particularly charismatic chief (or, more often, a non-goblin) takes over. Kobolds, meanwhile, work together so well they scarcely need a master. Kobolds also aren't chased off by a few poodles.
Personally I like the kobolds better, but I also will give the nod that Pathfinder goblins are much more interesting than the standard D&D goblin from yesteryear.
I wouldn't mind playing either race as a PC, but if I had to pick just one then the kobolds win.
Kobolds hold the distinction of being the only evil race (save perhaps gremlins or gnolls, who I know little about) to really stick together. Not even hobgoblins can manage that. Sure, a kobold won't risk his life to save his fellow tribeskobold, but he will to protect the tribe itself.
Now if only you could throw Murlocks into the mix... you could make quite the fun one shot adventure! lol
Goblins vs Kobolds vs Murlocks! Battle of the Hordes!
Careful with murlocks. They seem to be popular subjects for baby killing paladin threads.
I seem to remember there being subraces of kobolds, black, blue, green and so on.
I cant help wondering if this was intended to counter their mechanically inequality.
Goblins have a huge bonus to ride and stealth, +4 dexterity, plus they are small sized. This translates into a +10 bonus to stealth for your average goblin. For one with a class with stealth as a class skill, that raise the skill bonus to +12 at first level. A goblin could sneak into a kobold's mine and steal whatever he wanted and be out again before the kolbold is any wiser.
...mind you, the goblin would likely be caught trying to light the mine on fire, but the ability is there...
Kobolds are so great even nerfing the attributes can't reduce their popularity.
Actually, Gator, a goblin with Stealth as a class skill has at least a +14 if he puts just one rank into Stealth. And with a higher Dex, he can get pretty darn close to a +20 even without any feats!
I kind of feel that kobolds have been the cool alternative to the goblin for so long that for me goblins have become the cool alternative to the kobold.
With regards to kobolds, hands up if you remember urds!