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I know alignment threads tend to get heated, but let us try to avoid that.
I am inquiring as to how to create a PC that is an excellent thief, and of Lawful alignment.
Any ideas?
Locksmith.
Treasure recovery specialist.
Bodyguard.
Intrusion prevention specialist.
It takes a theif to catch a thief. Like a white hat hacker.
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Code of Behaviour. Plenty of historic and fictional examples around. It can be fun to come up with, too. Think of it like a Paladin's code, only you can add things like "Any who wrong me shall be paid in kind" and "Death to betrayers, there is no forgiveness" or "Bunnies shall be loved and protected above all others, for they are cute and fluffy in my arms".
how about a spy? You're working for the government of X, so you sneak into places, steal secret documents and such. You'll be like pathfinder's 007.
ooh, I love Burn Notice. =p
Davos seaworth from a game of thrones. He's had a change of heart/employer.
Concept-wise, possibly, though for mechanical purposes I'd go with ranger.
Organized crime groups with a strict code and hierarchy will likely have a fair few lawful rogues. The Godfather is a nice inspiration imo, and there is possibly similarly inspiring media on the Yakuza, Triads, Mafiya etc.
If s/he´s essentially a spy, probably. Not sure if that counts as being a thief, though - to be a lawful thief, your code probably doesn´t respect property rights all that much :) .
Yeah, actual theft is as non-lawful as it gets, short of murder. Even robin hood wasnt actually a thief, since he was arguably taking back what was his (since he was the legitimate lord of the area where he was).
You can easily have a lawful rogue, but a lawful thief? It's going to be hard. The "for king and country" thing would still be non-lawful, since he's breaking somebody else's laws. But that's up to you.
You could define them as a "code of honor" thief, with strict rules about who/what/how he thieves, but he'll always be breaking the laws of the locality.
While it would be funny to see a kleptomaniac paladin, I dont think he'd be able to stay one for very long.
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Maybe something like the medieval equivalent of a repo-man? Although technically that is not theft. While I think it is possible to be lawful and have the skills of a thief, I'm having a hard time thinking of how someone could be a thief (Thief being defined as someone who steals someone else's property) in practice and still be lawful.
Being lawful (as per the alignment) means you tend to respect a certain code and set of institutions, but these need not be the official government and law. Members of a mafia family or loyalist rebels against an occupier can be lawful even though they break the law.
Apart from that, there are spies, but they are usually not full-time thieves. It is also possible that the laws of a certain tribe or culture do not consider some sorts of theft illegal. For example, would it be theft to take something from the millenia - old ruins and mounds near the town?
Well, just because you are lawful doesn't mean you have to obey the law of the land. Rangers and druids can be LN, and they can care little for the laws of cities and kings, and instead for the natural order.
So, you can transport this mindset to the 'concrete' jungle. The laws of the streets, where the quickwitted survive and the slow get their pockets picked and their throats slashed. As Shaman mentioned, this could represent a mobster, attempting to consolidate their groups' control over the major sources of money.
Even this could be turned into LG if the rogue wants to 'give back to the community' by providing and protecting the jobs of the group (maybe ethnic/national/racial?). That is how many gangs got their start. Some yakuza groups, for example, got their start as groups of dock workers after WWII, where they had to protect themselves from invasive criminal organizations like the Russian mafia that tried to take advantage of the weakened country.
Yeah, but being lawful implies some level of self-consistency. If you dont want to be robbed, and you're ok with robbing others, it aint exactly lawful.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, Contributor
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In Golarion, you could be from the River Kingdoms and follow the River Freedoms. One of them is, "You Have What You Hold," and, while burglary is frowned on, other robbery is fine. The other freedoms are also good roleplaying hooks.
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My take on Lawful (greatly inspired by RL Japan) is that you respect as much as you can the laws of society, but the rules and traditions of your native culture/environment are sacrosanct.
If the law and the tradition come into conflict, a Lawful person makes the respect of tradition is first priority and does his best to find a way to obey the letter of the law, even as he completely ignores its spirit.
A Varisian thief stealing from non-varisian and giving back to his own community (an ages-old varisian tradition) is a good example of Lawful IMO.
Thieves that belong to a guild, as portrayed in most fantasy fiction are extremely LAWFUL! Remember that the alignment Lawful and legal are two different things. Thieves do not want to see the destruction of society, they thrive within that society.
Lawful characters tell the truth, keep their word, respect authority, honor tradition, and judge those who fall short of their duties. Chaotic characters follow their consciences, resent being told what to do, favor new ideas over tradition, and do what they promise if they feel like it.
Law implies honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and reliability. On the downside, lawfulness can include closed-mindedness, reactionary adherence to tradition, self-righteousness, and a lack of adaptability. Those who consciously promote lawfulness say that only lawful behavior creates a society in which people can depend on each other and make the right decisions in full confidence that others will act as they should.
Now where in that definition is the word LEGAL mentioned?
I'm not saying all thieves are lawful, but those in a Guild that follow the rules of guild master, certainly are. Take a look at the real world Mob and Mafia, where no one would talk, if a member were arrested or killed the "Family" took care of the member's wife and kids, etc. That is a perfect example of "Lawful" criminal organization. In fantasy read the Vlad Taltos books by Steven Brust, or the Elenium books by Eddings.
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Everyone on Game of Thrones is a horrible person.
Some just haven't been revealed as such yet.
That's not true, at least it's not true in the books (I have not seen past season 2 on TV).
Besides, being a horrible person and being Lawful are not mutually exclusive... In fact some of the most horrible people I know of are certainly considered "lawful".
A mafia-style thief is a great example of a non-standard lawful character. This person's actions, beliefs, and ambitions are structured by the expectations of the crime family/syndicate that they work for. Even though they break the law on a regular basis, they're still lawful characters because they act based on the expectations of their own society. Taken a step further, these people may well view their own criminal ilk as a part of the natural order of society. That doesn't mean that they follow the rules laid down by the governing powers-that-be, or that they necessarily get along with other criminals.
You also have lawful criminals that have codes of conduct like "don't kill kids" or "don't hit women" (which might not be entirely practical when both could be sorcerers that shoot you face off)
Maybe clearly identifying and warning others of the.. consequences of their actions. *I was totally writing that line with a Christopher Walken voice in mind, particularly his character in Suicide Kings*
Anyway, it would be a code of conduct so that they do not feel like they are entirely slipping into lawful evil, and that the violence they bring is due to other's actions.
Spy: James Bond is "licensed to kill" he doesn't do it for kicks.
Assassin: see above. James bond is basically an assassin but I could also see lawful evil assassins with a focus on a code of honor.
Thief catcher ala Wheel of Time, I can't think of the name of the character but he is definitely a lawful thief.
Dungeon Delver/trap disarmer: the fantasy equivalent of a bomb disposal tech. He hates traps and so has learned to disable them.
Thief/scout will also work but the ranger is better in my opinion.
Heck with all of their skill points you could have a thief sage or sage/adventurer like Indian Jones or the Librarian from those TNT shows.
Im surprised no has mention the investigator yet.An undercover police officer is another thing to look at.
By the way I remember reading years ago the police force in ancient Tokyo(Edo) was recruited from the same clans that provided Ninjas to the Samurai clans as they tended to need the same skills.
A lot of it depends on the campaign you're going to be in, and what that world is like. I could easily see someone who is a dungeon delver (class or theme, either way), who explores ancient tombs and dungeons, and takes things that are there because they're not being used by anyone, anymore. If they're given a mission to take a specific thing for a particular person/entity, they wouldn't go back on that deal but anything they weren't told to bring to them would be fair game.
At the same time, I've also played in a game where the recognized government included a thieves' guild. It was lawful in as much as there were codes and laws about when and what you could do, but thieves were perfectly fine doing what they do, as long as they had the backing of the guild.
Basically, what you want is to find someone who is licensed/authorized to do what they do, because they have a particular set of skills and those skills are useful to someone high up.
"Anyone can be a thief."
I take exception to this. I have played thieves, and it´s not a business for just anyone :P . Rogues are good at it, it´s other things they are less than stellar at.
If your GM works with you to provide a bit of foundation in the game world, you could accomplish this by being from a society that does not have the same sort of property rights that most modern societies do. It might place more value on things taken from others, and devalue those who cannot hold on to their own belongings.
The Ironborn in Game of Thrones are somewhat like this. "The Iron Price" is all about the honorable art of taking other people's stuff through violence.
Other cultures might simply value the craft of thievery without the violence. In this case it'd be more admirable to steal something rather than merely buy it.
Well, I know that Lawful, does not mean following everyone's law, in every land, all the time.
That's just silly.
Indeed. As I'm fond of mentioning whenever the "Lawful = always follows all the laws" idea comes out, that would mean that Evil Overlord Skullblight the Shadowmaster could make every single paladin fall just by creating a law that it's illegal to be a paladin.
Not exactly what you're looking for, but something that came to mind reading all of this is a lawful Alchemist/Master Chymist whose alter ego is the one who steals all the time
Everyone can have a split personality, you don't need it to be a class feature :P .
@ BBT - by a few other classes, maybe, but that doesn't mean rogues aren't good thieves. I think you dislike the class a bit too much :P .
Honor amongst thieves!
...or something like that
thieves guild master who leads by example for proper conduct.
robin hood.