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Just played this and was very disappointed by losing out on the second prestige point because we did the "good" thing by helping the daughter and turning her father over to the authorities.
After the alchemist fight, we never ran into the Eagle Knight again to gain the opportunity to ask him for help. The GM let it slip that the father was evil and very connected, he'd arraigned the kidnapping for crying out loud. So we figured we'd better get out of town with the daughter while the getting was good, lest we be pitted against the entire town militia, more mercenaries, or whatever. It really felt like it was the only sane choice.
Once we told the GM we were leaving town with the girl, that ended the scenario and our chances to gain our second prestige point. I really feel let down in that there was no way to encounter the eagle knight other than at the father's mansion, no chance to run into him in Almas, nothing.
Disappointing.
Once we told the GM we were leaving town with the girl, that ended the scenario and our chances to gain our second prestige point. I really feel let down in that there was no way to encounter the eagle knight other than at the father's mansion, no chance to run into him in Almas, nothing.
I suspect that that may be a GM error
Could you give a few more details on the encounter at the alchemist fight/negotiations? I am not looking to hammer your GM, but to bring to light things that other GMs may want to keep in mind/do while running the scenario.
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Jeff, the Eagle Knight never said one word to us at the mansion, pretty much just stood by and let the Mayor do all the talking. Not one word.
Mist, After we talked our way past the magus and found the letters he had after he left, we went to the alchemists shop and talked with her. The alchemist explained her offer and her involvement, and we let her talk all the way through her entire schpeel, even detailing the daughter's new life. A few members of the group were playing devil's advocate for the alchemist, and explained why being "kidnapped" would actually work out better for the daughter in the long run, as well as how it would help the Pathfinders. But when the rubber hit the road and she refused to go along with the scheme, my paladin and the LG oracle said, "No, if she doesn't WANT to go, then she's not going, and we are not giving her over to be taken against her will, we are leaving with her to take the evidence we have to the sheriff." That is what triggered the alchemists fight.
After the fight, we found even more evidence linking her father, as well as the eagle knight, to the kidnapping and the alchemist was still alive. So we took her, all the evidence that we had found from the other encounters, and her apprentice, down to the jail and dumped it all in front of the sheriff. After he saw everything, he told us the only thing we could do now, since everyone in charge here was dirty, was go to the ombudsman in Almas and present our evidence to the court. He would keep the alchemist under lock and key until a trial could be arraigned. So we hit the road since that's what we were told to do.
The daughter was very polite to us and didn't try to boss us around at any time, she was very adamant about accompanying us to the alchemist and sheriff, but otherwise went along with the groups decisions because apparently we were doing what she wanted.
I wonder how much of this is confusion on who said what when?
For the most part, the scenario seems to have been played out along normal lines.
There was no evidence linking the Eagle Knight to corruption, just a suggestion that he may have been helping Andares remain a consul in return for similar treatment - two politicians who are aligned helping each other out. Nothing really surprising in that.
Nothing in the alchemist shop was "concrete proof" by itself.
Did your group assume that Bryton was guilty? Did your group want to talk to Bryton but were discouraged from doing so by the sheriff?
Did Thalia suggest going to Bryton for military aid even though there were suggestions that he might be dirty?
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Maybe I got the timing of the evidence of Bryton's involvement mixed up. It may have been revealed to us in the epilogue that he was in on the scheme to rig elections along with the father.
I suspected that he was involved as soon as we met him, since the father didn't want to say anything in front of him other than, "Don't go looking for my daughter." It seemed suspicious, but we didn't get to interact with him. He just stood there next to the mayor and said nothing. I didn't want to start questioning him in front of the father in case either was in on the scheme. We asked if he was leaving anytime soon and we were told no, he was going to hang out at the mansion. We had no opportunity to speak with either of them alone, which is rule number one when conducting interviews. Separate the suspects and then check their stories against each other.
We were not discouraged to go talk to him, since we had no idea where he was. The last we had heard, he was still at the mansion. Thalia made no suggestions. Once we presented the evidence to the sheriff, he told us to go to Almas with it.
In the briefing we were told to make our introduction, perform the rescue mission, and then ask for aid. There was no chance to ask for aid from anyone other than the daughter.
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It may have just been a lost opportunity if you did not approach Byron yourself.
Scenario excerpt from the initial meet with the father:
Should any PC suggest Consul Bryton discuss a military alliance, he insists they talk in private.......If the PCs don’t have any of this leverage, he tells them where he is staying and offers to see them when they have something to discuss.
The scenario left it open for the PCs to interact with Byron, but if you didn't seek him out, then you miss the opportunity to obtain Eagle Knight aid for Mendev, and hence the lack of a second prestige point.
To get the second prestige point in Season 5, you have to go above and beyond for the Pathfinders to obtain it. Even the refit into the older scenarios are now like that.
Personally, I prefer it, as it requires players to think not only about the specific mission, but the larger picture as well.
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Maybe it was just the way things were interpreted, I felt like once we gave our introduction and announced our intentions, we were told not to do anything because the father had received the standard kidnappers note of "tell no one, ask for no help or she dies" and then we were summarily dismissed. In fact we were told to leave and the GM asked us if we were going to go gracefully or make a stink.
I didn't address the eagle knight at the initial meeting because again, we were told to make our introductions, rescue her, and then ask for aid.
I guess we screwed up by trying to follow our instructions and being the good guys.
Back to being a murder hobo it is.
I think that you may be taking the wrong message away from this scenario.
You need to pay attention in the briefing and to the intent of the PFS when you play in scenarios now.
Part of the briefing said:
When you track down Thalia, as I trust you will do quickly, it is important not only to the Pathfinder Society but perhaps to the whole world that you request funding for the military campaign against the Worldwound. Of course, convincing Tercio to contribute troops and military aid would be even better, but aim for finances first.”
So, three tasks
Rescue Thalia
Secure financial aid
Secure additional troops.
Your party did the first two, but not the third (which is what got you the second prestige point).
You could have asked to speak to Byron, even if father had dismissed you.
After the rescue, you could have approached Byron, asked for aid (either in return for some of the documents/evidence that named him, or appeal to his better nature in sending aid to the crusade - in not letting a corruption trial slow down the arrival of that aid).
Being a murder hobo would not have helped you in this scenario, nor do I suspect that it will in future scenarios (and possibly the new success conditions for the previous seasons).
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Back when we had faction missions, I can't tell you how many times myself as a player have asked, and as a GM been asked, "Hey, is this right here that flower/animal/guy I'm looking for? Or is it something we will find later?" How are we supposed to know that Byron is the guy to ask for military aid? We only met him once, at the start of the scenario, and we never got the chance to interact with him alone and never saw him again.
The briefing which you so helpfully quoted, and which more than one player actually took notes on while it was being read (myself included) states that we are supposed to ask the father for military aid. The Father, not Byron, the father.
"Excuse me mayor, but even though it looks like you kidnapped your own daughter, and we're in the middle of foiling your plot, and going to have you arrested, we'd like to take a few minutes to tell you about the poor people of Mendev." Yeah, that would have gone over well.
Before we rescue the daughter, we have exactly noting to offer them in exchange for their aid. We are standing there with our hats one hand and a begging cup in the other. Once we have the daughter, we were told to leave and fully expected to be ambushed on the way out of town by the father and his goons.
There was no way for us to secure aid from the Eagle Knight because we were given no idea that he could provide it. After all, Maldris is an Eagle Knight isn't he? Why would we assume this guy has any more ability or desire to aid us than our own resident VC? I'm sorry if I didn't read the scenario writers mind enough to figure all this out beforehand. We, all six players, wrongfully assumed their would be someone else we could ask for military aid that wasn't corrupt. I actually thought we'd run into someone in the capital that would aid us.
And as to being a murder hobo? You are mistaken. We could have turned the daughter over to the alchemist, gone back to the dad and turned over all the evidence to him, shook hands, and left with the daughter situation being taken care of, a sizable donation to the Pathfinder Orphans of War fund, and a promise of military aid to be forethcoming. Let the woman rot in a Galten prison for all I care.
Three for three and we get our prestige, murder hobo FTW.
Peace, I'm out. <drops mic>
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I was at the table with Wraithcannon and I can assure you I attempted the very thing he is talking about. Secure the aid of the father regardless of turning her over to her father who is orchestrating the kidnapping. We can negotiate for all of the aid we need by doing that very thing. I argued for doing that the entire time. I simply could not see who else we would get the military aid from, which I knew from the beginning was part of the requirement. The Eagle knight never spoke to us for a even a single sentence. He should have at least pulled us to the side and said he was staying in the inn as the scenario dictates. This way with that smallest of hints if we had missed it then we could complain about how the smallest hints of season 5 are ridiculous and meant to steal prestige from characters.
I can assure you that Wraithcannon and I roleplayed our rear ends off often opposing each other as he is a paladin and I am a negative channeling cleric. It was fabulous roleplay, but it precluded us from succeeding both missions.
Venture-Captain, Michigan—Mt. Pleasant
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A couple of things.
1) Sander Bryton is NOT an Eagle Knight. He is a Consul just like Tercio.
2) You should have been given the chance to make a knowledge (local)/Diplomacy check to know/learn information about Bryton that would inform you that while he doesn't have direct control over the EKs, he does advise the one that decides where the EKs go, and so has a bit of clout with them.
If your GM didn't give you that option, or you didn't roll well enough if he did, its not the fault of the scenario.
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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I notice that Koriana has a Shawl of Lifekeeping. Has it been "charged up"? It makes sense to me that she would have transferred some HP into the shawl before going to bed and then used a healing extract, but that's not stated anywhere.
Or is the intent to give GMs a bit of fudge-room to scale the encounter (having the shawl activate if the players are doing well, or not if the encounter is going badly for them)?
Either way, it would be nice to see the item called out in the tactics somewhere, especially since it's not something from the Core Rulebook that folks can be expected to recognize.
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I notice that Koriana has a Shawl of Lifekeeping. Has it been "charged up"? It makes sense to me that she would have transferred some HP into the shawl before going to bed and then used a healing extract, but that's not stated anywhere.
Or is the intent to give GMs a bit of fudge-room to scale the encounter (having the shawl activate if the players are doing well, or not if the encounter is going badly for them)?
Either way, it would be nice to see the item called out in the tactics somewhere, especially since it's not something from the Core Rulebook that folks can be expected to recognize.
I think given the cure light wounds infusion she has is already used indicates it has been charged however if it activates she will immediately surrender/stabilise is how I read it
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I played in this recently in a PbP game and a few observations. It might have been the DM, (and I do not mean to imply they where bad, but as has been noted sometimes info in this scenario is difficult to find). I am thinking of now running it, and just starting to read through.
One of the first things we asked pretty much every NPC we met if there where any old burned or half burned abandon buildings in the area, stone, possibly a library, and the other details we get in the briefing, and not a single person seems to have any clue. We greatly suspected that it had to be fairly close. We likewise asked in and out of character to speak to any friends of Thalia, but the DM couldn't seem to locate that info anywhere in the scenario. I'm not sure yet if that's in there, but it seems like that would be something that would be so common and a nobrainer to have noted somewhere very early on.
This is also the first scenario where it really felt like if you are not a Bard or Rogue (or similar skill happy class), you are a 5th wheel the entire scenario. I felt like I did not contribute to the scenario in any way. First time playing a martial combat focused build, but we had 3 fights total, and in the first two, I didn't even get to participate at all. The vast majority of the scenario, my contribution was rolling Aid Another checks, (and I wasn't alone) which really made it feel like the Paladin and Bard where the heroes and everyone else was just there watching. Is this common for other groups? Any suggestions on how to avoid this when I run it?
Taking a note from some of the White Wolf World of Darkness material, two things that I think would greatly help in scenario's like this is a small list of which NC's know what, and also a small chart on what they think and feel about each other, and what their basic motivation is. Not sure just how possible that is with page count, but basically a GM Cheat Sheet would probably go a long, long way.
Another thing I have noticed, both from having played, talked to a few people that played, and then reading here is that the initial DM's impression on what happened and why can really sort of set in stone (in the player's mind) what is going on. How the evidence is presented in the game, and also to a point I think in what order can really shift what seems to be going on. It became evident at the end, after having found a lot of (most?) of the evidence and having talked to a lot of people that the group was really split on what to do. Two players where absolutely adamant in "freeing Thalia" no matter what, (and even literally drew swords and threatened the other players) and in the end we bowed out to avoid PvP (I really do not know if it would have come to that or they where just trying to RP how much of a Paladin they where, willing to sacrifice themselves to do what they where so sure was right). But that's not the point. The point was that the characters that wanted to turn her in (or return her to her father and see what they both had to say at least) had the same evidence and believed that Thalia was not actually the victim (or no more than her father was). It kind of felt like a mess, and would have had to go far outside of what the scenario allows to truly complete. It kind of felt like there was only two outcomes, even though it seems that there are so many reasonable potential possibilities, that are kind of forced. Is it even possible to have the father and daughter reconcile? I'll find out soon, but honestly that seems like the best possible and most likely goal from a player's perspective, at least early on. Particularly for Good characters that are not really politically inclined, but Clerics of Sarenrae and the like, and general Paladins in particular.
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I am GMing this now as a PbP but I have two questions about the 'boons' (this is my first Season 5 scenario):
1) What good is the Taldor faction boon? It doesn't have an in-game effect that I can see. Is there some reward later, at the end of the season or something?
2) The Andoran boon doesn't specifically say "faction" like the Taldor boon above it. Could anyone achieve that boon? It seems appropriate that it could be read so since anyone could be so affected, and everyone was trying to fulfill Maldris' request. (I'm probably reading too much into it, I know.)
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1. The Taldor boon will be much like the Kirin boon from First Steps II and the Osirion boons from Glass River Rescue and Port Godless, in that they will be fulfilled later in the season.
2. The Andoran boon is specific to Andoran PCs only. In the scenario it specifically says to only give it to PCs with the correct faction.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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We likewise asked in and out of character to speak to any friends of Thalia, but the DM couldn't seem to locate that info anywhere in the scenario. I'm not sure yet if that's in there, but it seems like that would be something that would be so common and a nobrainer to have noted somewhere very early on.
I ran into this the first time I ran the scenario. Ther were several requests for perfectly reasonable information: Thalia's friends, the person running against the Mayor in the election, etc. Now, I keep a list of 25 NPCs: names, personalities, how well-informed they are, etc.
Is it even possible to have the father and daughter reconcile? I'll find out soon, but honestly that seems like the best possible and most likely goal from a player's perspective, at least early on.
I also wrote out about a dozen more pithy snippets from Lady Liberty, which Thalia throws around when they sound like they're appropriate. The girl's a True Believer in the Andoran cause. I doubt there's any way to reconcile that with a man planning to restore the hated nobility.
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We likewise asked in and out of character to speak to any friends of Thalia, but the DM couldn't seem to locate that info anywhere in the scenario. I'm not sure yet if that's in there, but it seems like that would be something that would be so common and a nobrainer to have noted somewhere very early on.I ran into this the first time I ran the scenario. Ther were several requests for perfectly reasonable information: Thalia's friends, the person running against the Mayor in the election, etc. Now, I keep a list of 25 NPCs: names, personalities, how well-informed they are, etc.
Is it even possible to have the father and daughter reconcile? I'll find out soon, but honestly that seems like the best possible and most likely goal from a player's perspective, at least early on.I also wrote out about a dozen more pithy snippets from Lady Liberty, which Thalia throws around when they sound like they're appropriate. The girl's a True Believer in the Andoran cause. I doubt there's any way to reconcile that with a man planning to restore the hated nobility.
OMG, that's horrible. (Well, great that you did that prep.)
Our group had a miserable time running into all these roadblocks. Frustration grew, and our newbie GM was struggling to find the material...which wasn't even addressed.Not good. Not good at all.
It also didn't help we had two other reasonable solutions to the dilemma, and had to rely on an NPC we just barely didn't kill in order to know the proper railroad to take.
Great, now I'm grumpy. :(
Okay, over it.
Cheers.
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I wanted to reiterate a question posed earlier in the thread. When does the letter from Lady Glorianna Morilla get handed out? I can find no place in the text that this is indicated.It's buried in with the list of questions and answers at the bottom of page 5
Before the party reaches the boat, a plainclothes messenger intercepts the PCs and delivers a missive to any members of the Taldor faction (see player handout on page 19).
Thank You.
I just ran this yesterday, and was surprised by how cold-blooded my PCs got at the end. I spent a bit of time at the beginning of the scenario describing that something was going on to the north, as I'm just starting to run S5 scenarios, so I was making it clear that there's something really bad going on at the Worldwound.
The PCs found out all the information, took the Galtans captive, and talked to Thalia. She made it clear that her father was pretty corrupt, and she wanted nothing to do with him. She wanted to turn over all the evidence she had to the sheriff and get him thrown out. She spent the night in the sheriff's house, since they didn't want to put her at risk by having her go to someone who might be in league with her father.
They broke into the alchemist's shop at night (they waited until night to go find the ruined house, and it didn't make sense to have Kori sleep there, since it's clear from the map it's not a home). They broke in, found her stash of evidence, and left with it.
In the morning, they came back and confronted Kori. They already had her evidence, so she was pretty over the barrel, but she made the PCs the offer anyway - I'll take Thalia somewhere else, and you will get the aid you need from her father. They accepted IMMEDIATELY. Thalia wasn't very happy, but with an impassioned speech from the party cleric of Iomedae, about the need for sacrifice in the face of greater dangers, she eventually relented and was shipped back to the Grand Lodge in Absalom.
I didn't expect the PCs to agree to someething so harsh so quickly, but they decided it was clear that Thalia wasn't going to be able to get them aid quickly enough to be useful - it would, at minimum, take a few months for the gears to turn enough for her to get them money, and even longer for her to be able to exert political power to get them military support.
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*digging up the thread*
Did anyone run into serious inner party conflict here?
My group bashed their heads in after they captured the Galtans (their boss went when the witch threw a Slumber hex mid-negotiation) what to do with them. They agreed to let them go, but did neither want to leave them there nor let them go immediatly.
It only got worse in the end when the scenario came to a screeching halt - neither the paladin nor the ranger wanted to budge one inch from their belief.
The paladin wanted to accept the deal, arguing that while it sucked for Thalia, no harm would come to her and that they risked the lives of hundreds, if not thousands of people for the freedom of one little brat (these players tend to HATE everybody tagging along - except for the Frostfur captives, for some reason).
The ranger was a true Andoran and refused to let the corruption stand.
They left the laboratory to discuss it further, where the paladin told the ranger that yes, while it sucked now, they could still give the information to their superiors so that they could act after the money and troops were secured. Didn't help one bit.
After half an hour of arguing I had to bring things to an end, so I decided that Kori took the opportunity (two of her enemies left her house, one stood guard, so only three were left inside) to attack. It worked quite well, too - at least until the witch brought her down with an inflict moderate wounds. The paladin was really unhappy about the whole ordeal.
Bryton was missed by all of them as well. Though this might be a problem of my group - they tend to latch onto their primary mission, completly forgetting the greater goal of their assignment.
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Venture-Agent, United Kingdom—England—Sheffield
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*digging up the thread*
Did anyone run into serious inner party conflict here?
My group bashed their heads in after they captured the Galtans (their boss went when the witch threw a Slumber hex mid-negotiation) what to do with them. They agreed to let them go, but did neither want to leave them there nor let them go immediatly.
It only got worse in the end when the scenario came to a screeching halt - neither the paladin nor the ranger wanted to budge one inch from their belief.
The paladin wanted to accept the deal, arguing that while it sucked for Thalia, no harm would come to her and that they risked the lives of hundreds, if not thousands of people for the freedom of one little brat (these players tend to HATE everybody tagging along - except for the Frostfur captives, for some reason).
The ranger was a true Andoran and refused to let the corruption stand.
They left the laboratory to discuss it further, where the paladin told the ranger that yes, while it sucked now, they could still give the information to their superiors so that they could act after the money and troops were secured. Didn't help one bit.After half an hour of arguing I had to bring things to an end, so I decided that Kori took the opportunity (two of her enemies left her house, one stood guard, so only three were left inside) to attack. It worked quite well, too - at least until the witch brought her down with an inflict moderate wounds. The paladin was really unhappy about the whole ordeal.
Bryton was missed by all of them as well. Though this might be a problem of my group - they tend to latch onto their primary mission, completly forgetting the greater goal of their assignment.
When I ran this, five players agreed a compromise deal, then the sixth initiated combat with the NPCs so that he could get his way.
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*digging up the thread*
Did anyone run into serious inner party conflict here?
SPOILERS FOLLOW
Yah, we had the same thing every time. The issue is that it supposed to be a moral question, but the facts that the players actually receive just don't work. The daughter is a spoiled brat that wants to make Andoran into Galt, regardless of how many it's very likely to hurt or kill. The father is "corrupt" because he uses his current position to keep himself and his family in power (legally), and his lands prosper.
There are really only two ways to come to the conclusion that it seems the writer intended, and that is either to botch the right checks at the right times, or the DM adds in bits that are not there to sway the players view on things inappropriately, but that leads towards failing your actual mission in favor of putting a girl in power that will likely ruin the town. The DM's and the Player's point of view on things based on what they can find out is very different. It leads to player incorrectly thinking that the right moral choice is helping her, but if they really knew everything, that's not it at all.
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Just wondering if I am missing something here.
The galtan magi's spell book seems to contain only 8 1st level spells. As a 3rd level magus with 14 INT, he should have 9. 3+2 at first, +2 at 2nd and +2 at 3rd.
Note that this would not matter, except I expect a large contingent from the Dark Archive to show up when I run it (I recruited most of them) and I am wondering how to handle the inevitable when they count the spells in the book for the goal and find they are 1 short.
Do not get me wrong, super glad the book is there at all. Spell books are a little too rare it seems (Season 5 and earlier view, no season 6 experience to compare.)
Actually, he appears to only have 7 first level spells in his spellbook at 3rd level, so 2 shy.
Venture-Agent, Nebraska—Omaha
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Just wondering if I am missing something here.
The galtan magi's spell book seems to contain only 8 1st level spells. As a 3rd level magus with 14 INT, he should have 9. 3+2 at first, +2 at 2nd and +2 at 3rd.
Note that this would not matter, except I expect a large contingent from the Dark Archive to show up when I run it (I recruited most of them) and I am wondering how to handle the inevitable when they count the spells in the book for the goal and find they are 1 short.
Do not get me wrong, super glad the book is there at all. Spell books are a little too rare it seems (Season 5 and earlier view, no season 6 experience to compare.)
Actually, he appears to only have 7 first level spells in his spellbook at 3rd level, so 2 shy.
** spoiler omitted **
At level 6, he has 15 spells known, which suggests his level 3 version should have 2 more.
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1. The Taldor boon will be much like the Kirin boon from First Steps II and the Osirion boons from Glass River Rescue and Port Godless, in that they will be fulfilled later in the season.
2. The Andoran boon is specific to Andoran PCs only. In the scenario it specifically says to only give it to PCs with the correct faction.
Is it seriously? I was about to ask the question that this answered, and I have to admit that I'm kind of disappointed. Everyone is asked to route out the corruption, but only Andoran/Liberty's Edge is rewarded? That bites. You'd think you'd get something other than one of the scenario letters getting a checkmark.
Has anyone played this and had the scenario completely come apart due to enchantment spells?
What would happen if they try to charm the father at the start? He has no will save listed but surely this is a possibility?
I ask because I am about to run this in a few days and have an enchanter in the group...
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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Does your enchanter have a tendency to just outright try to charm people with little provocation?
I realize the father isn't super-cooperative at the start, but it's a real risk to just try to charm him. Supposing he makes his save he knows that someone tried to cast a spell on him. So then he would probably have his government cronies arrest the PCs. Adventure over, mission failed. If asked about it he can truthfully testy that the PCs magically assaulted him in his home.
You could just try the old "are you sure you want to do that" at the player. That's usually enough to convince players they're about to do something phenomenally stupid.
If the players ask about it, you could explain that in a freedom-loving country like Andoran, trying mind-control spells on an elected official is going to be a felony. (It would be in most countries, but Andoran is quite fanatical about it.)
Does your enchanter have a tendency to just outright try to charm people with little provocation?
I realize the father isn't super-cooperative at the start, but it's a real risk to just try to charm him. Supposing he makes his save he knows that someone tried to cast a spell on him. So then he would probably have his government cronies arrest the PCs. Adventure over, mission failed. If asked about it he can truthfully testy that the PCs magically assaulted him in his home.
You could just try the old "are you sure you want to do that" at the player. That's usually enough to convince players they're about to do something phenomenally stupid.
If the players ask about it, you could explain that in a freedom-loving country like Andoran, trying mind-control spells on an elected official is going to be a felony. (It would be in most countries, but Andoran is quite fanatical about it.)
Thanks
I have no idea what they are likely to do. They are playing it for the first time. I am just trying to think through the possibilitiesBut can charm spells shut down the magus or alchemist fight? They both have low will. Or is the scenario already too heated for it to work?
Long post incoming but I need help. (Note this was not an official game)
I lost control over my attempt to run this last weekend. In about 4.5 hours the players somehow only got to the Vineyard and negotiation with Armant - and even that is not resolved.
I am still scratching my head a little over what went on. Partly we RP'd the discussions a little too much
Now my players seemed to swallow every possible red herring and also did their best to work out what was going on as early as possible and grill everyone about it.
Once they found out (on the way in this case because they were mercilessly grilling the Halfling guard) that Tercio gained political advantage from the incident they immediately connected the dots. It got worse when they uncovered Thalia's notes. This meant:
- Asking Tercio about his performance in the "polls" (and everyone for that matter)
- Being suspicious of everyone - including the kidnap victim
- Insisting on visiting the political rival mentioned at the start (Mistake: I should have said she wasn't in)
- They went to see Bryton before trying to find Thalia. However despite arranging to meet him on the terms of discussing the Worldwound expedition they immediately changed subjects and started grilling him about Thalia (despite him being present for the conversation with Tercio), local politics and potential corruption. I had him react furiously and dismiss them. They then started whining saying that was quite an unreasonable reaction. (I let them ret con with the excuse that they were distracted and not paying proper attention due to pizza arriving). And we kept it at the Worldwound stuff and they offered to bring Thalia to him so he could claim credit for rescuing her
So all that was nightmare of the group being paranoid and suspicious of everybody.
This lead to them hiding in the trees near the vineyard until dark to wait to see if any messengers came. They did not.
So they snuck up - two successfully, three not. Two of those three fell in the sink hole alerting the Galtans who told them to leave. The wizard called out that they were friends and not nobility.
I ruled that the Galtans would not consider anyone sneaking up in the dark friend so they tried to drive them away
It turns out the combat doesn't account for the players entering the Vineyard whilst the Galtans are not all defeated. This leads to Armant and Thalia standing there despite it being written and presented as a completely separate encounter.
Has this happened to others?
There were then problems with Armant. A big factor was it hit 11pm by this point and I did not want to start up another combat.
They worked out that he had got a case of mistaken identity. He requested the compensation like he does in the module.
They were asking about what he had been paid already (I had to make something up but probably shouldn't have answered).
Out of character they were scoffing because he was one guy and there was 3 in the room and two outside (my players are clearly idiots who don't realise people can have class levels)
They agreed to the deal, however:
They seem to (sadly) be traditional penny pinching, corrupt, murder hobos because they tried to pay him with his men's gold (I have posted about this separately).
When he insisted on actually making back some money they threw a bag of gold coins in the corner. He went to pick them up and the PALADIN bull rushed him to the ground (against the wall) - whilst talking out of character about just taking the gold back and / or making a profit by taking the Galtan's gold
At this point I am pretty annoyed (especially as the Paladin had already sat in on the outright lie they told to get a meeting with Tercio's political rival)
Armant aimed to show good faith and hand over his instructions and they found out who they were from at the end of the session.
Also worth noting they took Thalia outside when Armant released her and are discussing most things behind her back as they believe she is in on the whole thing
> So I face the prospect of trying to resolve this mess next time where my players could well try and kick off by breaking their deal with Armant (and maybe killing him). Then who knows what they will do to the other Galtans
And then of course they head to the Alchemist for that negotiation where they already do not trust anyone at all in this scenario
It is all a bit of a mess. I did not quite anticipate my players to be so mentally unprepared for such a scenario (especially as everyone is nearly 30)
>
Has this every gone so off course for anyone else?
Where did I go wrong?
Should I have just dismissed their attempts to follow the red herrings (I don't like to stifle creative thinking but is that more necessary in PFS?)
What should have happened when they entered the Vineyard building whilst still in combat with the Galtans?
Apologies for the incredibly long (and probably disjointed) post. I hope someone can help me :-(
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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Looks like you have three issues.
1) The gold thing - that's in the other thread.
2) A paladin behaving like a thug. From what you describe he's deep in the danger zone of doing stuff paladins shouldn't. YOU have to point this out to the player. If he's doing stuff that could make him fall (like outright lying, breaking promises that someone wouldn't be harmed etcetera), you have to warn him before he does it, that this could make him Fall. And then if he does go through with it, make him Fall.
Playing a paladin can be very rewarding - it's a big sign around your neck saying "it's okay, you can trust me, my deity will punish me if I try to betray your trust". It opens doors because people know you're reliable. The flip side is that you actually need to live up to it.
Explain this to the player - paladin's guaranteed good alignment has benefits, but it also means that he can't just do whatever he wants.
For you, it's a tool to keep the players somewhat in the vicinity of the rails.
3) Red herrings and paranoia. By and large, PFS scenarios aren't that complex. Often villains have fairly simple schemes. Player groups used to really devious GMs run a risk of overthinking it. It's okay to tell your players that "I didn't write this adventure. Really, relax, don't overthink it." They need to reset their expectations, which is easier if you explicitly point them at it.
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On the whole it really isn't hard to figure out the plot in this adventure. It isn't meant to be hard. It's an 1-5 adventure, meant to be completed by new players, and to showcase to them that There Is Something Rotten In Andoran. When the story is over they should know that although the common people believe in democracy, there is a corrupt elite pulling the strings.
This adventure was a major part of the storyline that turned the old Andoran faction into the current Liberty's Edge faction - it turned out their homeland was just as bad as the rest of the world they were taking on, so they needed more independence.
Thanks for the speedy reply!
1. Issue seems resolved in line with what I thought in thread
However one question worth asking. If they broker the deal and go ahead with the double cross do they count as "defeating" Armant. The scenario says you have to either defeat him or bargain with him
I would be reluctant to reward them for defeating someone who assumed there would be no fight
2. The Paladin. I will warn him. But exactly how many chances does he get. This is the second scenario as the character. But would you suggest breaking the deal with Armant would be enough to make him Fall?
Even if in his mind he is bad for being a paid kidnapper
3. I think the players have acknowledged they overthought things. I did enable this as well though (although i did set up figures on the battle map after they were finished at Tercio's. They didn't take the hint!)
As an aside - where are the stories about the evolution of factions? And do the vanities in the PFS Field Guide (or whatever the book was called) still apply - such as Eagle Knight, Lion Blade etc.
I find the evolution of PFS quite tough to track
I am planning on running the season 5 sessions in a mini campaign purely because the format of PFS allows one off sessions as an aside to my friend's main campaign
However all the factions have now changed and the players are members of the new ones (as I do not have a Season 5 guide). I assume this doesn't cause any real problems
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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Thanks for the speedy reply!
1. Issue seems resolved in line with what I thought in thread
However one question worth asking. If they broker the deal and go ahead with the double cross do they count as "defeating" Armant. The scenario says you have to either defeat him or bargain with him
I would be reluctant to reward them for defeating someone who assumed there would be no fight
The way PFS is set up, what matters is "solving" the encounter. In this case, the PCs need to rescue Talia. They earn pretty much the same rewards for brutally slaughtering the Galtans or just negotiating with them. That's why the scenario says:
Rewards: If the PCs fail to defeat or negotiate with
Almant Enderios, reduce each PC’s gold earned as follows.
Subtier 1–2: Reduce the gold earned by 135 gp.
Subtier 4–5: Reduce the gold earned by 549 gp.
PFS is built this way because we don't want to teach people that talking is for sissies and the only way to end up with full cash is to kill everyone :P
2. The Paladin. I will warn him. But exactly how many chances does he get. This is the second scenario as the character. But would you suggest breaking the deal with Armant would be enough to make him Fall?
Even if in his mind he is bad for being a paid kidnapper
The paladin may not like the kidnapper, but if he made him a promise, that's it. Breaking his promise is a dishonorable act that could cause him to Fall.
Paladins should be very careful what they promise, because they have to keep their promises.
3. I think the players have acknowledged they overthought things. I did enable this as well though (although i did set up figures on the battle map after they were finished at Tercio's. They didn't take the hint!)As an aside - where are the stories about the evolution of factions? And do the vanities in the PFS Field Guide (or whatever the book was called) still apply - such as Eagle Knight, Lion Blade etc.
I find the evolution of PFS quite tough to trackI am planning on running the season 5 sessions in a mini campaign purely because the format of PFS allows one off sessions as an aside to my friend's main campaign
However all the factions have now changed and the players are members of the new ones (as I do not have a Season 5 guide). I assume this doesn't cause any real problems
I'll get back to this tomorrow.
Thanks for the reply
I think I will let them get on with it and debrief at the end to make clear that it is not like most PF games where they need to kill everyone who they come up against. I will probably also reveal their alignments
I am really skeptical about saying they "defeat" Almant if they do it by treachery. But I think it should be more of an alignment warning if anything (the Wizard's player laughably insisted to me that he was playing CG all the way through)
My latest worry is that they will butcher Almant and take their gold back. But again that should be alignment related (and I would really expect the Paladin to stop that happening)
As for the Paladin I am reluctant to make him Fall first time round since it seems harsh. It depends on how he reacts to my warning. If he allows the group to kill Almant or the Galtans (who surrendered) - or does it himself then that will probably be too much for me to let slide
(I now need to research whether a Paladin is aware that he has Fallen or whether he only knows when he tries to use his abilities)
I know I am in danger of over thinking this but why does Armant request/demand a ransom/bribe once he finds out he has the wrong person?
And does he attack if it is not paid? If he does why would he do that? It doesn't seem to make sense as a course of action
I think the demand for payment rather than just packing up and leaving has really got my party's backs up and makes them consider him a bad guy deserving of dealing with dishonourably...
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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Thanks for the reply
I think I will let them get on with it and debrief at the end to make clear that it is not like most PF games where they need to kill everyone who they come up against. I will probably also reveal their alignments
I am really skeptical about saying they "defeat" Almant if they do it by treachery. But I think it should be more of an alignment warning if anything (the Wizard's player laughably insisted to me that he was playing CG all the way through)
Well, they can defeat him through treachery. But it's pretty efficient to just buy him off. If they do get into a fight, and then use a few charges of a Cure Light Wounds wand, it won't be very different from just giving him some money.
That's the thing with solving conflicts with Talk instead of fighting in PFS: often it's just relatively cheap to do so, and less riskier than fighting. You don't need to use spells per day or risk the enemy getting a lucky crit. Enemies that can be talked through are often just a few Diplomacy checks away from a peaceful resolution, maybe with a small bribe. If each PC is earning about 500gp from the adventure, a 50p bribe isn't that much.
My latest worry is that they will butcher Almant and take their gold back. But again that should be alignment related (and I would really expect the Paladin to stop that happening)
As for the Paladin I am reluctant to make him Fall first time round since it seems harsh. It depends on how he reacts to my warning. If he allows the group to kill Almant or the Galtans (who surrendered) - or does it himself then that will probably be too much for me to let slide
(I now need to research whether a Paladin is aware that he has Fallen or whether he only knows when he tries to use his abilities)
PFS has a clear rule on making paladins fall. As a GM, you have to warn the player that the thing he is about to do would make him fall. That gives the player the chance to say "you know, maybe that was a really stupid evil idea and I won't do it after all".
Thanks for the reply
I think I will let them get on with it and debrief at the end to make clear that it is not like most PF games where they need to kill everyone who they come up against. I will probably also reveal their alignments
I am really skeptical about saying they "defeat" Almant if they do it by treachery. But I think it should be more of an alignment warning if anything (the Wizard's player laughably insisted to me that he was playing CG all the way through)
Well, they can defeat him through treachery. But it's pretty efficient to just buy him off. If they do get into a fight, and then use a few charges of a Cure Light Wounds wand, it won't be very different from just giving him some money.
That's the thing with solving conflicts with Talk instead of fighting in PFS: often it's just relatively cheap to do so, and less riskier than fighting. You don't need to use spells per day or risk the enemy getting a lucky crit. Enemies that can be talked through are often just a few Diplomacy checks away from a peaceful resolution, maybe with a small bribe. If each PC is earning about 500gp from the adventure, a 50p bribe isn't that much.
PFS has a clear rule on making paladins fall. As a GM, you have to warn the player that the thing he is about to do would make him fall. That gives the player the chance to say "you know, maybe that was...My latest worry is that they will butcher Almant and take their gold back. But again that should be alignment related (and I would really expect the Paladin to stop that happening)
As for the Paladin I am reluctant to make him Fall first time round since it seems harsh. It depends on how he reacts to my warning. If he allows the group to kill Almant or the Galtans (who surrendered) - or does it himself then that will probably be too much for me to let slide
(I now need to research whether a Paladin is aware that he has Fallen or whether he only knows when he tries to use his abilities)
I need to try and get this across to them . They are still new to PFS and do not understand this. As my gold thread indicates they think they can hoover up all the gold from the Galtans and make a profit (clearly haven't read the guide / listened to me / paid attention at the end of the first game )
I think they are objecting on principle of giving a "criminal" money after commiting a crime - at least OOC
They also don't understand the risks of level 1 either. Armant doesn't even need to crit to drop many members of the party . A slightly above average hit downs the wizard. A 9 or 10 drops the paladin but he is quite unlikely to hit his AC
And as I have mentioned above I can't understand why he would fight a group of 5 or 6 on his own if they refuse to pay. One the face it seems like suicide for him even if he is higher level