|
I'd like to roll up a new PFS character with decent face skills that would still do decently in combat and work well in PFS. I especially want to play something very versatile, that can fill the gaps nicely with lots of different party composition since that can be hard to predict in PFS games. I was thinking of maybe doing a social-focused skill monkey rogue. Any suggestions or thoughts?
Venture-Captain, Germany—Hamburg
|
Another option would be Ninja. It's a bit more Cha-based than the Rogue, because a Ninja gets his Ki with Charisma.
Choosing many social skill would also fill the traditional background of a ninja quite well.
Bard is a good choice as well, especially since there are a lot social-based archetypes for bards.
You might also want to play a human and replace "Skilled" with "Silver-Tongued".
"Voice of the Sybil" is a good choice for a feat.
|
Only because it hasn't been mentioned: how about an Oracle?
Granted, they only have Diplomacy and Sense Motive as class skills by default, but they can get additional class skills based upon Mystery (for example, Battle adds Intimidate), as well as character traits. (Just don't take the Wasting curse!)
(For this character) I picked up Keleshite Princess and Under Siege to make Bluff and Intimidate as class skills (only restriction to these traits is to be a Qadiran Keleshite Female and worshipper of Sarenrae, respectively), as well as a +1 trait bonus to all 4 social skills (Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Sense Motive).
Haven't had the chance to play her yet (so this may or may not be a good example), but figured I'd throw that out there :)
I'd like to roll up a new PFS character with decent face skills that would still do decently in combat and work well in PFS. I especially want to play something very versatile, that can fill the gaps nicely with lots of different party composition since that can be hard to predict in PFS games. I was thinking of maybe doing a social-focused skill monkey rogue. Any suggestions or thoughts?
Rogues aren't actually that good at face skills. They might have a few in class, but its not hard to make a class skill in class if you really want and they don't pump a stat that you can add to your face skills, and their rogue talents that focus on social skills are actually pretty awful(and in some cases worse than other classes!). They also aren't very versatile, because mundane and their class features don't give them many options. A class with a caster stat might do better, and spells always add options.
Inquisitors and clerics can get wisdom to their social skills through the conversion inquisition(as people stated above), but clerics may not have enough skill points to do much with it. Inquisitors also happen to get half their level to intimidate and sense motive through stern gaze(unless you trade it out). Depending on who you ask inquisitors can also get wisdom twice to social skills through archetypes, but I wouldn't put money on it. All this can also just be a dip for one level into inquisitor, so druids and clerics can benefit from a lot of the front loaded skills(but spellcasting will hate you for dipping). Bonus for wisdom helping sense motive, of course!
Any charisma based caster can do social skills well. They might not get it in class, but when your sorcerer has 26 charisma you can probably do it better than some of the guys who do have it in class. Bards don't pump charisma, but they do get more skill points than a rogue over time and they do have those skills in class, however they can be hard to build because they do have so many options. Summoners don't have to crank up their charisma either, but they can give their eidolon skilled for a +8 to diplomacy and they do have good social skills on their own(and are almost too versatile, depending on who you ask). Charisma based casters can also qualify for Eldritch Heritage pretty easily too.
Anyone can get intellect to a social stat or two through Clever Wordplay or Student of Philosophy. There are a few more that change what stat goes into a skill, but those are good examples. Wizards tend to have sky high intellect so lots and lots of skill points, and they also tend to have lots and lots of options because spell casting. Magus and witch are also an option through this, though witches tend to be single minded. The idea of a regal magus who can talk to anyone through student of philosophy sounds pretty righteous to me, personally.
Beyond all that, almost anyone can pump a social stat or two with skill points and can bolster it even further with magic items, and you don't always need too much. There are also spells that bolster it, honeyed Tongue even lets you roll diplomacy twice for 10/lvl! That's the nature of skills.
Edit: Was I thorough enough?
|
If you want the most versatile "face" character you can get, it's tough to beat a bard. Take a few combat feats and you can take on a damage dealing role when necessary. When it's not, sit back and buff. Bards are a force multiplier. Your healing isn't great but you do have it.
Oracles are also a good choice. They are charisma based, get 4 skill points a level, have access to the full cleric spell lists, spontaneous healing spells, and some of the mysteries (especially battle) can be pretty effective frontliners.
Paladins are also good face/combat characters but you are going to have to choose what you are building for, keeping in mind that you are a heavy armor wearing class. Just because you are a paladin you will often find yourself having to mix it up even if you built as a healer (if no one else brought a frontliner). You won't be as versatile as some of the other classes.
|
|
I'd like to roll up a new PFS character with decent face skills that would still do decently in combat and work well in PFS. I especially want to play something very versatile, that can fill the gaps nicely with lots of different party composition since that can be hard to predict in PFS games. I was thinking of maybe doing a social-focused skill monkey rogue. Any suggestions or thoughts?
The rogue, despite its rep, does not actually do this very well. They need to devote a lot of resources to combat to function at all, and you WILL need to pull your weight in combat. A face rogue gets Very MAD (multiple attribute dependent)
Str: Needed to avoid a hit and damage penalty unless you carefully build around it
Dex: ac, skills, possibly hit and damage
Con: You fight in melee. you will be hit.
Int: if you're dumping your int you may as well be a smart fighter and get the same skill points.
wis: you already have the will save of a dodoo bird looking at a shiny object, no need to push it. Also needed to spot the traps.
charisma: you want to face. Having a penalty here isn't the end of the world, but chances are the channel heavy cleric,sorcerer, or oracle will run laps around you if you do.
Skills have a STEEP set of diminishing returns for three reasons.
First off, dipping in a skill gets you 1 rank for a +4 bonus. After that its a 1 to 1 skill point to +1. After that you need to burn very valuable feats for a +3. Strait line diminishing returns.
THEN you need to consider that Perception and diplomacy together comprise about half of skill rolls. After that you have a few often useful skills (acrobatics*, sleight of hand, disable device, survival, knowledge: what obscure arcane metal do i need to hit that with) followed by skills that come up more rarely ( knowledge local (when it can't be replaced with diplomacy) ,heal, swim,) and followed by "you actually have what skill?" that sit there collecting dust like perform (keyboard), appraise, or knowledge nobility. Each additional skill you cover is less and less likely to be used.
And after THAT , The more skills you have, the more likely someone else has that skill or a scroll that will do the same thing. Half the characters have a good perception score, veteran players know you'll need someone with diplomacy. Its very hard to compete with a bard at diplomacy and the druid at survival and the barbarian at intimidation.
This synergizes especially quickly for point 1, because the more useful skills are the ones where its most likely this overlap will occur. We had a game last week in the 5-7 range where the diplomacy skills went from +8,+15, +19: Diplomacy is the perception of face skills. It comes up more than the rest combined.
|
|
solutions:
Diplomancing sorcerer: Arcane with a thrush familiar for +3. Take extremely fashionable or some other trait for the +1 to diplomacy bluff and intimidate. If you have the int to pull it off (or just don't care) throw in the silver tongued human trait to get a +2 and the ability to turn your most hated enemies into people who will do things for you... BEFORE you charm them.
Conversion inquisition inquisitor: Replace your cha with your wisdom score. There's a way that may let you do it twice, but thats too much cheese/grey area for pfs. Inquisitors are self buffing cleric rogues. Just specialize in melee or ranged, have a decent int score and you're good to go. You have combat, spells, and skills that synergize together rather well. You're not uber at anything but you're good enough for pfs at everything.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
The rogue, despite its rep, does not actually do this very well. They need to devote a lot of resources to combat to function at all, and you WILL need to pull your weight in combat. A face rogue gets Very MAD (multiple attribute dependent)Ugh, tell me about it. >.<
I believe the word you're looking for if you're thinking of being a face rogue is "bard." :P
|
|
I believe the word you're looking for if you're thinking of being a face rogue is "bard." :PThe rogue, despite its rep, does not actually do this very well. They need to devote a lot of resources to combat to function at all, and you WILL need to pull your weight in combat. A face rogue gets Very MAD (multiple attribute dependent)Ugh, tell me about it. >.<
My aristocrat has managed just fine, and she brings neither spells nor weapons.
-Matt
My aristocrat has managed just fine, and she brings neither spells nor weapons.I believe the word you're looking for if you're thinking of being a face rogue is "bard." :PThe rogue, despite its rep, does not actually do this very well. They need to devote a lot of resources to combat to function at all, and you WILL need to pull your weight in combat. A face rogue gets Very MAD (multiple attribute dependent)Ugh, tell me about it. >.<
Your aristrocrat is also an NPC? I'd imagine life works out great for an aristrocrat. You just order a bunch of weird people of various races and professions to do your dirty work for you. Sometimes you need to bluff or something if its fishy business sure, but they never seem picky to me! Just put an exclamation mark over your head and they'll do just about anything for money. You also get to skip out on all that combat for RP sessions!
|
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
|
I believe the word you're looking for if you're thinking of being a face rogue is "bard." :PThe rogue, despite its rep, does not actually do this very well. They need to devote a lot of resources to combat to function at all, and you WILL need to pull your weight in combat. A face rogue gets Very MAD (multiple attribute dependent)Ugh, tell me about it. >.<My aristocrat has managed just fine, and she brings neither spells nor weapons.
-Matt
Your aristocrat is an outstanding personality and a welcome addition to any table!
|
|
Your aristrocrat is also an NPC? I'd imagine life works out great for an aristrocrat. You just order a bunch of weird people of various races and professions to do your dirty work for you. Sometimes you need to bluff or something if its fishy business sure, but they never seem picky to me! Just put an exclamation mark over your head and they'll do just about anything for money. You also get to skip out on all that combat for RP sessions!
Alas, I tried that, but as I discovered first-hand, Pathfinders don't do well with the whole authority thing, so I often had to settle with subtly encouraging others to do my faction missions for me. The trick is to make them want to do it by not letting them know that you want them to do it.
There was one guy who held my aristocrat's umbrella for her, though. That was nice of him.
As for the exclamation-mark idea, I tried that once for Jestercap, by having my character dress up as Paracountess Zarta Dralneen. It didn't work, though, because there were no Cheliax faction members at the table. Instead, I ended up with two slips of paper instead of one!
So, though it would be nice to kick back as an NPC, the realities of the Society have forced my aristocrat to slum it as a PC. Thanks for asking, though.
Your aristocrat is an outstanding personality and a welcome addition to any table!
Thanks for the endorsement! You don't need big-huge swords or giant spell DCs, just a good personality is all it really takes to make a great Pathfinder!
Oh, a circlet of persuasion helps with that.
-Matt
|
|
Alas, I tried that, but as I discovered first-hand, Pathfinders don't do well with the whole authority thing, so I often had to settle with subtly encouraging others to do my faction missions for me. The trick is to make them want to do it by not letting them know that you want them to do it.
And still yet, some of us helped in Taldor's bidding as a personal favor... And because the alternative would bring about undesired wrath.
This may sound weird, But gunslinger.
No, Dont tab out hear me out.
As a gunslinger your dex should be at most 16 at lvl 1. depending on the build you may only need one grit so 12 wisdom.
Is you take a Halfling you get a charisma bonus and a dex. so you can get easily both to 16.
Now the only class skill they do not have is diplomacy. easily fixed with "Ease of Faith" trait which makes it on and gives you +1. So at lvl one you have a +8 in diplomacy if you put a rank in it. +7 in bluff and intimidate.
Boom very good face of the party. AND good damage because you always(mostly) hit touch.
cavalier
my 1th level cavalier had +22 diplomacy, +37 intimidate, +23 umd,
HOW!?!?!?
HOW!?!?!?cavalier
my 1th level cavalier had +22 diplomacy, +37 intimidate, +23 umd,
Well, supposing its 11th level and not first, the math could be 11(skill ranks)+1(trait)+3(in class)+5(competance)+2(circumstance)+2(luck)+charisma(Primary)+strength(Int imidating prowess)+2(Morale from heroism)+6(Skill focus)+2(racial).
There are a lot of numbers you can cram into skill checks. Having a good main attribute helps, but at later levels you can really crank it if you can afford the gear, trait/feats, or ranks.
|
I have to say I have several characters that pull of being a face, and one that thinks he can.
Rogue 10 (sometimes he's been with better diplomats, but not often. And he is effective in combat. )
Gunslinger5/inquistor 8 (now)
Battle Oracle 5 (+14 diplomacy and bluff... She knows she is not really a paladin, though others may not)
Paladin 5 (though he prefers not to)
Inquisitor 4 (cha7, but conversion domain. He prefers bluff and intimidate, though)
Angelo (wizard 9) only thinks he is good at diplomacy... But he is trained (1 rank)
One of the most effective face characters nowadays are Int primary characters using the Student of Philiosophy trait. So basically Wizards, Witches, some Alchemists and Sage Sorcerers. Using your Int for all of the face elements of bluff and diplomacy when it is a stat which you are likely to be boosting every time you can and buying an Int headband for giving you even more skills will blow most other characters out of the water. A Charisma focused Bard might keep up but that is probably about it.
Bards have some nifty tricks for raising their face abilities like performance and masterpieces though. They also get it in class, and most casters for some reason are anti-social or something I guess. Bard also since the post got access to pageant of the peacock, which is pretty crazy. Bard's spell list is heavily invested in the enchantment and illusion school and he has several spells that boost his ability to speak like honey tongue that the full casters won't get. Of course nine level casting is 9 level casting, so... yeah. I'd say they do a bit more than keep up though.
|
|
Really it is the rogue which loses out. Being restricted to purely mundane stuff and having generally terrible talents supporting their skill role imposes pretty stiff limitations on them.
I've managed to do just fine with both my Rogues. There are enough paths for solid skill modifiers to the point where I've been able to achieve sufficient modifiers to succeed at PFS's skill DCs. And I didn't have to burn traits or spell slots to do it.
In other words, the Rogue is a class with face skills that still works well.
-Matt
Really it is the rogue which loses out. Being restricted to purely mundane stuff and having generally terrible talents supporting their skill role imposes pretty stiff limitations on them.I've managed to do just fine with both my Rogues.
Yeah, you did okay with your rogue, which is cool, but that doesn't mean he's the best when compared to other choices, which is where he loses out. Rogue talents are usually pretty awful, sneak attack can be pretty unreliable and doesn't actually hit that hard when you use it(rogues are the worst for hitting things), and rogues don't get the most skill points or have much potential to do more than cram skill points into things for skills. Meanwhile, spells can make you good or better at a skill, or even skip the roll altogether. Other classes also have abilities that improve their face skills, like inquisitors can add their casting stat and get half their level 2 two of the face skills and have spells, or bards can replace it with a performance for more skill points or use inspire or spells.
Rogues aren't actually a very good face because they don't get much to go into their face skills other than skill ranks and in class.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Rogues aren't actually a very good face because they don't get much to go into their face skills other than skill ranks and in class.
And that's kind of my point... skill ranks, the class skill bump, a decent attribute, and maybe some magic items... that's all you need. And once you can hit all your DCs, just like when you're spanking every combat you run into... any further improvement is unimportant.
It's not about achieving the highest modifier after expending a whole bunch of traits and daily spells. It's about being able to hit your DCs. I'd even say that the characters who can do that with the least resource expenditures are the "best" face characters.
-Matt
I think part of the problem with rogues in the face role is that their talents for those skills are generally awful. Rumourmonger, Charmer, Coax Information, Hard to Fool, Convincing Lie, they tend to be derided as some of the worst class options around for any class and with good reason.
It takes real talent to make things worse.
Yes, convincing lie and rumormonger in particular can actually make things worse, depending on your DM. Adding flat bonuses to them even would make things better, or attaching options that don't take away from completely mundane options you could already do, but that could be said of most feats. Probably off topic in a thread asking for advice though.
It's not about achieving the highest modifier after expending a whole bunch of traits and daily spells. It's about being able to hit your DCs. I'd even say that the characters who can do that with the least resource expenditures are the "best" face characters.
In which case the best person is still not the rogue because he doesn't get the most static bonuses. Poor guy.
|
|
In which case the best person is still not the rogue because he doesn't get the most static bonuses. Poor guy.
What matters is that he can, and is thus better at it than classes that can't without extra resource expenditure. Thus, he is in a class with face skills that still works well in PFS.
-Matt
In which case the best person is still not the rogue because he doesn't get the most static bonuses. Poor guy.What matters is that he can,
and I never said he couldn't.
