Hi,
How make a zen archer life between 1-5 lvl tough? The best way of making encounters challenging for him?
I partially went through monster manuals but did not find anything cool for archer fighting purpose so far. I know wind rules but it's not enough. I don't know, maybe there are some cool monsters which I missed? Or any cool traps, rules which I forgotten? Please advice, I'm out of idea here. I don't want to kill that guy of course, however I just have no idea how to fight with archers correctly. I played with him two games so far and as a zen archer, he just bashed my mobs away. It's clever guy who is using terrain and everything to gain advantage, I like that. However I'm sucks here, that's why I'm asking.
He is now creating the fourth character which is of course going to be an archer again. He is starting from priest or inquisitor (not sure yet) and will multiclass for what? Zen Archer of course :P
How to make encounters challenging for him? I'm using wind rules and terrain so far, tried to use surprise as much as I can but goblins and orcs just don't go well with him and he is killing everything I throw on him. Of course, I could throw a dragon or something but as I stated, I don't want to kill him without any remorse just for getting frag, what I want is to make him stop feeling like a damn God of War who is killing everything in his sight ;) Make encounters challenging again within the CR range.
Thank you guys for any advice, I will appreciate it!!
Well from what you state, it means that without resorting to "umanoid" (from humanoid) characters it can be quite tough *gulp*
But yeah, sneaking from behind, wind walls, monks, it's great asset against these kind of characters. He is of course little PG'ing but I don't mind. What is frustrating me that I've got a really problem to make combat challenging and gonna try to go for some "not standard" measures like you told before.
However, anything else? Spawning ninjas constantly can make a little disturbance for everyone ;) Great for some times, but not too often for not making the game boring. If you got even the weirdest but legit from game mechanic and CR side idea, please post! I will appreciate everything what I gather for my long time strategy against archers to not let them be too comfortably with their "I got 9999 dmg, ha ha" thing ;)
Have a rival Zen Archer show up for your own version of Enemy At The Gates.
LazarX:
You are totally right here. I stated that I'm using a terrain but when I read what You've written I think that maybe not enough. Some cool hills can be using for grenades launching purpose (I think that there is some kind of nade launcher in PF armory, at least I remember that i've seen something like that) some rocks, walls or trees can get cover. I really love to use map conditions and full rules (night, wind, bad weather, snow etc.) for them in combat. I need to work on it harder!
"The point of all this is not to shut down your good players all the time, but to vary the game board so that they can't just settle for a comfortable routine."
Yeah, of course not. Sometimes there is time for mooks, sometimes it's time for challenge and I'm trying to stick to it. However when the party killed my last boss in second turn, I decided that it's time to get advices because I had to do something wrong :) In our group we're trying to balance a game between roleplaying and mechanic. Roleplaying is one thing, combats are the other one and we're trying to take a joy from both aspects of the game. In case of combat it's about to outsmart the second side. Their advantage is that they're working together, mine as a game mistress is the fact that it's me who is setting the entire encounter what is really cool!
Monsters with Teamwork Feats work wonders on any PC. Monsters can use equipment, and note that Tower Shields pretty much shut down a Zen Archer as well (total cover) at lower levels.
Monsters with High Speed are good too, or flying monsters who can skip the front liners and land on the Archer. Before level 3, any melee fight is bad for the zen archer. After level 3, he doesn't much care about melee due to not provoking.
Things with lots of attacks in melee are also good, especially combined with Pounce (Felines are your friends in this regard). A full run of 50 feet followed by a pounce attack doing claw/claw/bite (possibly Rake) will take the wind out of a zen archer's sails.
Also, note that a Zen Archer is not harder to hit than others, he's usually going to have a lower AC than anyone else, due to his lack of armor. And Bracers of Armor are expensive. A friendly Mage Armor from the party sorcerer/wizard is still using up resources. So does a wand of MA.
A tactic that works beautifully is tall grass. In my experience you need to use this sparingly because of how much of a challenge it can be for a group. 6 foot high grass is total cover past a few feet, and it will allow your monsters to play cat and mouse with the party (who are unlikely to make use of flight at this level). If you do have someone fly up, that person becomes the primary target for any missle attacks that Team Monster has available.
I also agree, your goal shouldn't be 'get the archer'. You SHOULD be looking for ways to make the other characters have opportunities to shine. Is there a rogue in the party? Perception and Stealth will let them ferret out enemies that the party can't see. A fighter? Up close and personal lets him do his thing when the party bumps into something fight-able. Maybe the cleric can cast 'endure elements' on the party and light swaths of grass on fire to smoke the monsters out.
Attack at night with critters with darkvision.
Does the archer have darkvision too? Probably not past 60'. Have enemy ranged attacks from 70'.
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Aside from the aforementioned spells, why don't you create an NPC that likes to sunder?
Sunder the ZAM's bow and see how he/she fares... All of a sudden he's a 3/4 BAB character that is relying on hi UAS to defend himself... And he can't flurry with it... Since he is probably built with a high WIS and moderate scores in everything else I think you will find that he doesn't have enough attack modifiers to pose a threat to anything.
Aside from the aforementioned spells, why don't you create an NPC that likes to sunder?
(...)
You don't even need an NPC, I personnaly use Sunder (the bow or the quiver), Disarm (the bow) or Steal (the quiver).
The improved feats help but the a creature with reach dont even have to wory of getting kicked or armor-spiked AoO (and Ogres and Trolls, IMHO just like to smash stuff).
Grab and Grapple are also good ones. The dire Toads encounter was fun!
Also tight spaces. A dungeon of Kobolds would ruin his day. Small tight corridors with lots of turns and twist. This will also let him shine when you want him to. You just open up into a big room every now and then to let him go crazy... then its back to the tight spaces. A tightly packed forest does the same. A room full of columns. Stilagtites. Ect.
Weather was mentioned.
Darkness
Deflect arrows
Wind Wall/Fickle Winds
Lots of 1st level fodder.
Grease spell
Debuffs/Hexs
Grapple
I just remembered one that was used against our party way back when (AD&D) but still would work: Warp Wood!
Also tight spaces. A dungeon of Kobolds would ruin his day. Small tight corridors with lots of turns and twist. This will also let him shine when you want him to. You just open up into a big room every now and then to let him go crazy... then its back to the tight spaces. A tightly packed forest does the same. A room full of columns. Stilagtites. Ect.
Having played a zen archer, not so much. It blocks enemy ranged as much as it does me, and I don't care if they get into melee at 3rd level or higher. So dungeons are particularly bad to slow the zen archer down. I used to stand behind the dwarf in full plate and shoot over his shoulder at everything he fought. Nothing survived a round usually. And if I couldn't attack them, they couldn't attack us.
Arrow slits could work better of course. Even better would be small holes in the ceiling to drop flasks from.
Interesting to mention. The rules seem silent about an attempt to sunder a weilded weapon with a ranged attack.
It is specified that only Blunt or Slashing damage would work and that only 1/2 the damage is applied before Hardness but I couldn't find a mention of the AC of a weilder or CMD.
Anybody got something?
Interesting to mention. The rules seem silent about an attempt to sunder a weilded weapon with a ranged attack.
It is specified that only Blunt or Slashing damage would work and that only 1/2 the damage is applied before Hardness but I couldn't find a mention of the AC of a weilder or CMD.
Anybody got something?
Reading the rules for sunder it says "...in place of a melee attack."
sadly
Edit: spelling, sadly :(
Also tight spaces. A dungeon of Kobolds would ruin his day. Small tight corridors with lots of turns and twist. This will also let him shine when you want him to. You just open up into a big room every now and then to let him go crazy... then its back to the tight spaces. A tightly packed forest does the same. A room full of columns. Stilagtites. Ect.
Having played a zen archer, not so much. It blocks enemy ranged as much as it does me, and I don't care if they get into melee at 3rd level or higher. So dungeons are particularly bad to slow the zen archer down. I used to stand behind the dwarf in full plate and shoot over his shoulder at everything he fought. Nothing survived a round usually. And if I couldn't attack them, they couldn't attack us.
Arrow slits could work better of course. Even better would be small holes in the ceiling to drop flasks from.
Since dwarfs are medium sized, wouldn't the line of fire cross in front of the dwarf, and provide your enemy with partial cover? I know by 6th level zen archers ignore this, but before then? Just wondering since I'm currently playing a ZAM myself, level 4 currently.
As for things against the zen archer, concealment is a biggie. Until you get imp. Precise shot, and seeking for your bows, concealment, from any number of sources will lower those chances of hitting, regardless of how many arrows you shoot.
Also, arrow amount. A quiver only holds 20 arrows. So unless your allowing multiple quivers, or an altered quiver quantity, those arrows will go quick. Depending on level they can be shooting anywhere from 3-6 arrows per round, as long as they use ki points, otherwise, it's one less for each amount. Even if your player doesn't keep count, which they should, keeping a quick side note, can allow you to go and question your player once they are around running out of arrows.
Since dwarfs are medium sized, wouldn't the line of fire cross in front of the dwarf, and provide your enemy with partial cover? I know by 6th level zen archers ignore this, but before then? Just wondering since I'm currently playing a ZAM myself, level 4 currently.
We were at 4th to 10th level, so yeah, at lower levels it was a pain, but not a huge one. We'd 'shuffle' and I'd take the point position when the dwarf was injured, and fight defensively and he'd shuffle back to get healed. Then when I was low, we'd reverse.
As a reminder, the Archer archetype for Fighters can use both Disarm and Sunder checks from up to 30' away (with a penalty to CMB, of course). He probably won't be expecting ranged combat maneuvers.
Also, small corridors are a pain to deal with for archers. Put anything between them and he'll be taking a -4 penalty for soft cover.
As a reminder, the Archer archetype for Fighters can use both Disarm and Sunder checks from up to 30' away (with a penalty to CMB, of course). He probably won't be expecting ranged combat maneuvers.
Also, small corridors are a pain to deal with for archers. Put anything between them and he'll be taking a -4 penalty for soft cover.
And a level dip into fighter/archer isn't a bad thing either for a Zen Archer. Boosts BAB when you're not flurrying, boosts HP, and gives some perception, range and can disarm at range.
Archer archetype can also trip at 11th level.
Sorry, haven't got time for response before! Needed to do some work and did not expect that feedback is going to be SO BIG!
MDT:
"Monsters with Teamwork Feats work wonders on any PC. Monsters can use equipment, and note that Tower Shields pretty much shut down a Zen Archer as well (total cover) at lower levels."
Umm, really? I do not see teamwork feats as so much powerful honestly...
But tower shield! Yeah, total cover is great. Only drawback is these -2 to attack rolls, but I guess it can be used smart. For example bracing the shield in earth or something. Quite good! I like it.
"Things with lots of attacks in melee are also good, especially combined with Pounce (Felines are your friends in this regard). A full run of 50 feet followed by a pounce attack doing claw/claw/bite (possibly Rake) will take the wind out of a zen archer's sails.
Yeah, true, I figured that one by myself. These kind of monsters are awesome but when comes to melee, at lower levels Zen Archer is kind of quacked anyway.
"Also, note that a Zen Archer is not harder to hit than others, he's usually going to have a lower AC than anyone else, due to his lack of armor. And Bracers of Armor are expensive. A friendly Mage Armor from the party sorcerer/wizard is still using up resources. So does a wand of MA."
Not sure about that one. Wis AC Bonus is stacking with Dex Bonus which gives quite a lot of AC here. Especially that party knows who is da boss there and they are doing everything to keep Zen Archer alive.
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Tim Statler:
Don't forget weather! Rainstorms shut down all archery.
Weather is great! I'm using it already. The only drawback is that I cannot use it all the time and also - do not work in dungeons. I really love that kind of stuff. It makes a game very realistic.
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Methabroax:
A tactic that works beautifully is tall grass. In my experience you need to use this sparingly because of how much of a challenge it can be for a group. 6 foot high grass is total cover past a few feet, and it will allow your monsters to play cat and mouse with the party (who are unlikely to make use of flight at this level). If you do have someone fly up, that person becomes the primary target for any missle attacks that Team Monster has available.
And the winner of this thread is..... TALL GRASS. Seriously, I haven't even thought about it and it's great! Grass can be reeeally huge and obscure their visions. It's going to really make their life harder! I love this idea!
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Apocalypso:
Attack at night with critters with darkvision.
Does the archer have darkvision too? Probably not past 60'. Have enemy ranged attacks from 70'.
Not bad, but figured it also. One of their encounter is going to be a BOSS fight in TOTAL DARKNESS and STORM WEATHER! I just can't wait to see this in combat! They have NO DARKVISION and there is NO wizard in this team. Did I mention that torches do not like water?
------------------------------------------------------------------------Krodjin&Slime:
You don't even need an NPC, I personnaly use Sunder (the bow or the quiver), Disarm (the bow) or Steal (the quiver)."
The improved feats help but the a creature with reach dont even have to wory of getting kicked or armor-spiked AoO (and Ogres and Trolls, IMHO just like to smash stuff).
Grab and Grapple are also good ones. The dire Toads encounter was fun!
If I will use sunder, they will know that I'm losing it. It's a good trick but well known from old DND. The dirty trick here is a fact, that they know it as well as a fact that not many (if any) monsters use it, they would instantly figure out why I'm using it. Stealing works in the same manner.
But grappling and disarm - Ohh yes, this is great! Almost every mob in the adventure module is using it! They will have a hard time with this. However, the team is covering an archer quite well and I will first need to drag away them from him. They fight like a damn Roman formation! I'm still waiting for tower shields and gladiuses, really!
Armor Spiked, Ogres, Trolls, Dire Toads - GONNA USE IT FOR SURE :D Stealing gear is cheap but SMASHING IT WITH A CLUB? Never seen it before!
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Dragonamedrake:
Also tight spaces. A dungeon of Kobolds would ruin his day. Small tight corridors with lots of turns and twist. This will also let him shine when you want him to. You just open up into a big room every now and then to let him go crazy... then its back to the tight spaces. A tightly packed forest does the same. A room full of columns. Stilagtites. Ect.
Weather was mentioned.
Darkness
Deflect arrows
Wind Wall/Fickle Winds
Lots of 1st level fodder.
Grease spell
Debuffs/Hexs
Grapple"
Tight spaces with tight corridors, not bad but as mdt metion it may not going to work. Tried it once, there was some drawback but the party learnt how to solve this
However please explain:
Lots of 1st level fodder.
Grease spell
I'm not sure what do you mean by 1st level fodder. You mean cannon fodder to take away his arrows? It's great! He is just going to be out of ammo :D But will work once. Next time he is going to take entire cart of arrows with him.
However I'm not sure how grease spell will help me here.
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Slime:
Gelatinous Cube
I just remembered one that was used against our party way back when (AD&D) but still would work: Warp Wood!
Holy cow! I haven't known that this kind of spell is even exists! I love it!
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Grizzly the Archer:
Also, arrow amount. A quiver only holds 20 arrows. So unless your allowing multiple quivers, or an altered quiver quantity, those arrows will go quick. Depending on level they can be shooting anywhere from 3-6 arrows per round, as long as they use ki points, otherwise, it's one less for each amount. Even if your player doesn't keep count, which they should, keeping a quick side note, can allow you to go and question your player once they are around running out of arrows.
Oh yes, I'm counting ammo VERY STRICTLY. As well as their encumbrance etc. However it was mentioned before, gonna use some low lvls mob to draw arrows away but it's once time trick. Next time I'm gonna see some kind of ammo cart. Seriously! They've done same thing for ballista once! They dragged A BALLISTA TO THE DUNGEON!!!
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EvilMinion:
Sure, its easy to avoid the firing into melee -4 penalty via Precise Shot, cause you can get that at level 1.
But the soft cover penalty (of -4 as well) can't be avoided at all prior to level 6, and even then, only for Zen Archers and Rangers who take it as their Ignore-Prerequisites-Bonus Feat. Everyone else can't take until level 11 and dex 19.
Until then, the only way to avoid the penalty is to find clear lanes of fire by moving... and if they have to move, they only take single shots.Once the melee guys close with the enemy, getting a clear shot is not easy sometimes.
Narrow corridors can force the issue...
Enemies that move/shift to put PC's between them and the archer, can often do wonders. (a 5' step to circle a melee PC, for an NPC, is not so easily countered by a 5' step from an archer PC more then 10+ feat away, geometry doesn't support it)If Improved Precise Shot is not your zen archer's (or ranger archer's) automatic choice as his level 6 bonus feat, you're probably being too lax on cover rules and ranged combat.
You're right here! I know the soft cover rule and I was using it but did not "use it in proper way" if you know what I mean. I totally forgot about using npc to make a line with party members to force that -4!
Yeah, IPS is standard thing here. They know it, they love it, they abuse it as quack!
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Rycault:
More broadly design encounters to give the rest of the party a chance to shine. Have a rogue in the party - give them some encounters and dungeons with traps and with terrain that offers opportunities for scouting ahead and using stealth even in combat. Have a cleric or other divine caster that likes to channel - toss some undead mobs at them and let that character have a chance to save the day. As a DM and player in PFS who sees zen archers and who has one I play occasionally I love the scenarios where every player has a chance to really shine.
Yeah, true! I realised it very quickly when played DND and scolded my first Game Master about that. In my encounters I'm trying to use every party members. Some closed doors with something, like berserking undead! Closed lock can be opened by rogue in combat and release the kraken! I mean berserking undead who is attacking the nearest person, even the enemy of the party! Some cool stuff like figures of cleric god which mobs are trying to destroy and he has to protect them! If he kill particular monster in time, he gonna get some buff for the rest of the encounter! I love this stuff too.
Encounters can be so much fun when designed properly! Bashing monsters like cavemen it's boring. I always adds some "objectives" in more complex or difficulty encounters to let get the players their glory in battlefield.
Umm, really? I do not see teamwork feats as so much powerful honestly...
But tower shield! Yeah, total cover is great. Only drawback is these -2 to attack rolls, but I guess it can be used smart. For example bracing the shield in earth or something. Quite good! I like it.
They work better the higher up in levels, but you need to build carefully. There are some feats that make people provoke, and also some that let you take AoO when someone provokes your teammate. Additionally, outflank is a great feat to whittle down on people.
As to Tower Shields, let someone play a fighter, and use the shield. Then let some archers get behind him, and step out (5 ft) attack, next round attack 5-ft step. But yeah, either way it pretty much shuts down an archer.
A narrow maze of winding passages, all alike. Possibly a three-dimensional maze of winding passages, with pits and shafts. Archers need line of sight. If you never have more than a 10' sight line, they're goingto have problems. Enemies are never more than a 5' step from attacking them directly.
Kobold tunnels. Wolf dens. Orc lairs. Burrowing creatures. Could be lots of possibilities here.
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For ranged sundering - the 1st level wizard spell: Break.
Break
School transmutation; Level sorcerer/wizard 1
CASTINGCasting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (a twig)
EFFECTRange close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets one Medium or smaller object
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Fortitude negates (object); Spell Resistance yes (object)DESCRIPTION
You can attempt to break or at least damage any one Medium or smaller object within range. If the target fails its Fortitude Saving Throw, it gains the broken condition. If cast on a broken item, that item is destroyed on a failed save.
From the APG
Make that Big Bad Boss in the dark and rain also burrowing creature. Yummy Zen ankles!
Villina
Box him in: Most archers think of fights with one target in one direction, give him multipe targets coming at him from multiple sides. Don't let him stay on target.
Split Him up from the rest: He is relying on terrain, take that away from him, Drop him through a trap door, have someone net him or bull rush him to where they want gim to be (hey that's a pit, Snatch him up with a flying creauture (drop him in that pit). A wall of ice or wall fire also works nice if you put it right in front of him, wind wall makes his day suck balls.
Show him the wrong target All warfare is deception, you need to show him one thing but give him another, illusionary images, distant scarecrows dressed as goblins, monsters disguised as things immune or resistant to piercing damage (oozes, swarms, skeletons etc.)
Make him dig deep As mentioned lots of skeletons and gallowdead, (you need bludgening damage) Zombies (need slashing damge), oozes (hey there is an ooze in that pit), go old school use a Trapper , swarms (especially really small ones that fly!), weather is always good (fog, rain, wind)as are lighting conditions (magical darkness), invisible targets (phantom fungus!),
Set him up and knock him down Attack him with some monsters that have Dex damaging (poison, cockatrice, mudman, etc.), if his Dex goes below 13 he probably looses the benefits of a number of feats. And then have him make a reflex save from some monster's breath weapon (remember that dragon you took a pot shot at, he has been planning your demise for some time now).
Skeletons aren't very useful, bludgeoning arrows.
Something with DR/Slashing will shut down a Zen Archer as well.
Lots of Zen Arch bulids are min/max. I'm willing to bet that a fair share of them are Humans.
1. Attack with a Ranger: favored enemy as Human.
2. Darkness casting Rogues with nasty sneak attacks.
If he's not Human:
3. Attack his AC, flat if you can.
4. Incoporeal attacks.
4a. Mobs with DR.
5. Swarms.
6. Water. Archers HATE fights in water.
Be careful though. One should challengen, but not invalidate.
Hello again!
MDT:
They work better the higher up in levels, but you need to build carefully. There are some feats that make people provoke, and also some that let you take AoO when someone provokes your teammate. Additionally, outflank is a great feat to whittle down on people.
As to Tower Shields, let someone play a fighter, and use the shield. Then let some archers get behind him, and step out (5 ft) attack, next round attack 5-ft step. But yeah, either way it pretty much shuts down an archer.
Gonna check them once again, from what I see in outland, I guess that u'maybe be right and I just missed something. Need to do some research!
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Rite Publishing:
Box him in: Most archers think of fights with one target in one direction, give him multipe targets coming at him from multiple sides. Don't let him stay on target.
Split Him up from the rest: He is relying on terrain, take that away from him, Drop him through a trap door, have someone net him or bull rush him to where they want gim to be (hey that's a pit, Snatch him up with a flying creauture (drop him in that pit). A wall of ice or wall fire also works nice if you put it right in front of him, wind wall makes his day suck balls.
Show him the wrong target All warfare is deception, you need to show him one thing but give him another, illusionary images, distant scarecrows dressed as goblins, monsters disguised as things immune or resistant to piercing damage (oozes, swarms, skeletons etc.)
Make him dig deep As mentioned lots of skeletons and gallowdead, (you need bludgening damage) Zombies (need slashing damge), oozes (hey there is an ooze in that pit), go old school use a Trapper , swarms (especially really small ones that fly!), weather is always good (fog, rain, wind)as are lighting conditions (magical darkness), invisible targets (phantom fungus!),
Set him up and knock him down Attack him with some monsters that have Dex damaging (poison, cockatrice, mudman, etc.), if his Dex goes below 13 he probably looses the benefits of a number of feats. And then have him make a reflex save from some monster's breath weapon (remember that dragon you took a pot shot at, he has been planning your demise for some time now).
These advices are great! Seriously, something about tactics! Some of them was mentioned before but still worthy to remember!
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Rerednaw:
Even smokesticks (the poor man's obscuring mist) can mess up an archer's day.
I TOTALLY FORGOT ABOUT SMOKESTICKS!!!
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Havoq
If he's not Human:
3. Attack his AC, flat if you can.
4. Incoporeal attacks.
4a. Mobs with DR.
5. Swarms.
6. Water. Archers HATE fights in water.
1. Yeah, surprises are great :) Love that rule!
2. Know about it, but it's not so obvious at these levels. Need to check some undeads stuff again, maybe gonna find something cool with incorporeal there3. DR is always best. Cannot overuse it however, cause they will call me a cheater! ;-)
4. SWARMS. Got one Swarm monster in the adventure and they are GREAT! Without casters or some nades, it's almost impossible to kill them! They forgot about swarms totally and will have some nasty surprise soon enough...
5. Water is great but they know one of the most important rpg rule - NEVER GOES NEAR TO THE WATER AND FOR GOD SAKE DO NOT ONBOARD ON A BOAT!
They know that water means nasty things and this is one of rare moment when GM can use these awesome water monsters from manual.
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Mordo the Spaz - Forum Troll
Make that Big Bad Boss in the dark and rain also burrowing creature. Yummy Zen ankles!
BURROWING! Another thing which I totally forgot. However in this encounter not gonna use it, it's nasty enough. Making encounter challenge is one thing, impossible another. BUT NEXT TIME SURE ^_^
------------------------------------------------------------------------Tim Statler:
Thanks! I checked some spells but I had to miss that one!
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Ilja:
Be careful though. One should challengen, but not invalidate.
Yeah, I know. I hate killing players, 'cause nobody gonna get anything from that and with TPKs, entire adventure is quacked. Killing one or two because they quacked badly is one thing. TPKs are bad for business!
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ANYWAY!: Thank you all for your feedback! I never thought that it will be so huge! Now I think that got enough neat stuff to work with. Maybe someone else who will come here with same problem, can benefit from these great advices as well! Many cool ideas here which can be used!
If you got anything more which was not mentioned, please post! One topic with nasty anti-zen archer things in one place can be great!
Gonna check them once again, from what I see in outland, I guess that u'maybe be right and I just missed something. Need to do some research!
One I used recently was this. I had some mooks (level 8, 4 warrior, 4 Polearm Fighter) who were using polearms with the trip ability. 4 of them attacked one Magus (level 12). They lined up on opposite sides, and one tripped the magus.
They had outflank, and also a feat that lets them take an attack of opportunity when someone provokes from an ally with the feat. Also combat reflexes and 16 dex.
First guy trips the Magus, everyone else attacks the downed magus. The magus get's up, provokes an attack of opportunity from everyone. Then everyone get's a bonus AoO because the Magus provoked one from an adjacent ally.
So, in one round, 8 attacks (standard itteratives), then an additional 8 attacks (AoO). Then the Magus had to try to cast defensively with four guys on him (each with disruptive). Knocked him down, chopped him up, and only the cleric casting Dimension Door saved him, took both of them 800 feet away.
I'm sure someone will try to point something out based on sparse '30,000 foot view' synopsis above. Not going to bother responding. The polearm guys were legal (built in PCGen and double checked). My memory on the other hand may not be all that good, it was a few months ago, so specifics might be off a bit here and there, general usefulness is the point.