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When Pathfinder first came out I was very excited, to say the least. Here was a brand new core rulebook, updating the classic races and classes, implementing CMB/CMD and updating a rather annoying skill system. It was the promise of a new dawn and my group embraced it immediately. It was glorious.
Now, some four years later, I am getting bored with it. Why you may ask? Allow me to explain.
During the reign of 3.5 we had a truckload of options. I would scour the books for hours upon hours for the perfect feat, prestige class or spell for precisely my concept, my character could be precisely as I envisioned him and all it took was me doing something I loved, going through the books.
Now I know that many of you hated the many … many, books of 3.5, citing such things as power creep, feat creep, spell creep and so on. But the thing Wizards gave us was choice. We were free to use and abuse, or to forbid and restrict as we ourselves saw fit. True, wizards was pumping out books like there was no tomorrow and some of the material where downright insane, but we had options and it was up to us to sieve through it to find the gold.
Pathfinder has given us a wonderful – and much needed – upgrade for the core rulebook and some great new classes, but they are losing steam. Don’t get me wrong, I still like the things they do, especially when they make material for Golarion. But when we talk new core material things doesn’t seem to move very much. For a long time it has seemed to be due to Paizo still wanting to be the small company who is every geek’s friend and as such they have been reluctant to drop the kiddy gloves and make things interesting.
But they’re not that small company anymore they’ve become the publishers of one of the best selling RPGs in the world, adding staff at an insane rate, leaving behind their small-business days. They’re the big boys now and they should act like it. Being a big boy in the RPG business means having visions and acting upon them, not holding the hands of scared geeks, who keep on ranting about such horrible monsters as the creep.
I realize that I can just use my 3.5 material with Pathfinder – and I do, modified of course, but I miss seeing something new, something interesting, Paizo started out so strong with the Core Rulebook.
Prestige classes and races are high on my personal list, but also gear, interesting magic items and all the other little things that inspire world building.
In short: I miss vision and inspiration.
It would suit Paizo to put on the bigger shoes and get things done. Hinting to musings on psionic magic and making corrections to existing material – such as the recent update/new juju oracle, is wasteful and a cheap tease, when that time could be spend getting the ACG playtest going as they promised almost a month ago
I know that not all personnel can be included in getting the playtest ready and on the website, but when I look at how many people can be crammed into making a single, 64 pages, PDF, I find it amazing that it usually takes a month or two from the playtest is announced to it actually getting started.
Wizards easily put out about one core book a month, having 3-4 people make the entire book and getting it on the marked, granted, it had its bad sides, but mostly it was good. When Paizo makes a book it takes a year, includes 10-15 people and so much hinting and teasing that I begin to lose interest long before the PDF is ready for purchase. I miss the days when I could get new options for my world building almost as often as I felt the want/need, instead of this slow, boring, extended wait every time a new book is announced.
Thanks to Paizo for all you have done so far, it has been - mostly – great, but you need to step up your game, be the big boys you have become, not the geek-pleaser on the side.
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Quality takes time. And it's not like their production schedule is slow, either. A splat book and an AP a year is plenty, and gives them time to fix some of the issues with the stuff before they shove it out the door.
Things already go screwy in actual game scenarios, have unclear wording, and so forth as it is, shoving a book out every month would exacerbate the issue.
I've read a lot of 3.5's stuff. The overwhelming majority of it was unbalanced, poorly worded, or pointless (either due to it being ludicrously underpowered or just redundant). There were some gems in there but you have to wade through a metric buttload of crud to get to it.
Being the "big boy" doesn't mean you ignore quality to shove a product out the door every 30 days. It means providing a good product at a reasonable schedule.
Which they have done. Pleasing your fanbase is the best way to keep business, and the best way to please your fanbase is to make quality content.
When Pathfinder first came out I was very excited, to say the least. Here was a brand new core rulebook, updating the classic races and classes, implementing CMB/CMD and updating a rather annoying skill system. It was the promise of a new dawn and my group embraced it immediately. It was glorious.
Now, some four years later, I am getting bored with it. Why you may ask? Allow me to explain.
During the reign of 3.5 we had a truckload of options. I would scour the books for hours upon hours for the perfect feat, prestige class or spell for precisely my concept, my character could be precisely as I envisioned him and all it took was me doing something I loved, going through the books.
Now I know that many of you hated the many … many, books of 3.5, citing such things as power creep, feat creep, spell creep and so on. But the thing Wizards gave us was choice. We were free to use and abuse, or to forbid and restrict as we ourselves saw fit. True, wizards was pumping out books like there was no tomorrow and some of the material where downright insane, but we had options and it was up to us to sieve through it to find the gold.
Pathfinder has given us a wonderful – and much needed – upgrade for the core rulebook and some great new classes, but they are losing steam. Don’t get me wrong, I still like the things they do, especially when they make material for Golarion. But when we talk new core material things doesn’t seem to move very much. For a long time it has seemed to be due to Paizo still wanting to be the small company who is every geek’s friend and as such they have been reluctant to drop the kiddy gloves and make things interesting.
But they’re not that small company anymore they’ve become the publishers of one of the best selling RPGs in the world, adding staff at an insane rate, leaving behind their small-business days. They’re the big boys now and they should act like it. Being a big boy in the RPG business means having visions and acting upon them, not holding the hands of scared geeks, who...
I'm glad to see someone else than just me who misses the glory days of 3.5e while also bringing up some good points about their current path, but I'm slightly saddened that you aren't as upset as I was when I realized Paizo failed to deliver on things it promised such as an actual fix to the original 3.5e system. With that said, I still enjoy Pathfinder (since my players have fun with the game) and really wish they'd focus more on new systems instead of pouring down all the gold on good artwork. Either way, only time will tell what happens next around here.
Being the "big boy" doesn't mean you ignore quality to shove a product out the door every 30 days. It means providing a good product at a reasonable schedule.
Which they have done. Pleasing your fanbase is the best way to keep business, and the best way to please your fanbase is to make quality content.
What counts as a reasonable schedule is rather subjective if you ask me, as is the quality of a given book.
I was disappointed by Paths of Prestige, which was one of the few books of Pathfinder I REALLY looked forward to.
Most other splatbooks (with some race books as exceptions) concerning Pathfinder are more or less beneath my interest.
When I lost a bunch of Pathfinder books when my bag went missing, I realized I didn't even care for half the books I had bought.
that sneaky poster name really got me into this thread. I feel kidnapped. ...and obliged to divulge my opinion.
Yeah I do miss that 'discover and make it your own' feel that 3.5's extensive splatbooks gave me. Pathfinder on the other hand, seem to be too afraid of moving out of the Core Rule's shadows. So I've only got 3rd-party materials that really introduce any new rules.
I'm not saying it's bad in that it's 'stagnant'. Having the rule rooted deeply in its own core ideas is actually very good. It produces less confusion and it's really easy to keep track of things and do stuff on the fly. So I'd say PF's taken the noble route of setting priorities on how it really plays on the board, than how we make interesting and creative stuff in our free time.
That brings me to the point of this discussion, the lack of feelings of 'discovery'.
Hopefully future PF materials and perhaps even Pathfinder 2.0 would bring about all the different mechanics and twists that I miss. Mythics rule did do something similar, but it's based on such... a 'general' rule in that if somebody on the table was using the rule, everyone basically have to. So that rules out any feelings of 'exclusivity' for the lack of a better term.
<-- Casts spontaneous immolation.
Well, the advertising line for Pathfinder is "3.5 thrives!" and since the rules are compatible (or at least pretty easy to convert) you always have the option to use 3.5 material your DM approves (except for PFS play).
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I miss the 3.5 days but I'm tired of the splat books. Personally, I loved the Core books but would have preferred an APG type book once a year or two and the company focusing on campaign setting books (world building like the old FR series accessories) and adventures.
I think the shiny has worn off in my case with Pathfinder and Golarion, which is on reason for me giving up on the hobby, the other reasons being the game is too tactical now and I prefer a slightly lower magic setting.
I think Goodman and to a lesser extent, the old Necromancer had it right during the beginning of 3E/3.5. Aereth (Goodman) was a great example of a campaign setting done right with their adventures along with those of Necromancer capturing the magic of yore. Golarion just goes too far into too many flavors. I would prefer a multiple campaign setting option from a company over throwing it all into one setting.
I'm also more traditional by not wanting guns or romps into the real world or alternate realities in my games, though I do like the occasional planar jaunt.
Overall the tactical nature of the game is my biggest gripe. Stopping the game to set up a map with counters for every room really makes GMing it a chore. I prefer the older game flowfrfrom 2E and before.
I'm viewing 3E/3.5 in a slightly better light than PF atm but not by much.
YMMV as usual.
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If you really miss more options try looking into some third party products. I get that they have a stigma, but dream-scarred press and some others have put out some real winners. I personally think Ultimate Psionics is a better thought out book than a good deal of what Paizo puts out and I don't like Psionics at all.
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Well, the advertising line for Pathfinder is "3.5 thrives!" and since the rules are compatible (or at least pretty easy to convert) you always have the option to use 3.5 material your DM approves (except for PFS play).
1) That was a serious case of false advertising if you ask me.
2) Many a DM I have met find conversion to be too much of a hassle.
Well, the advertising line for Pathfinder is "3.5 thrives!" and since the rules are compatible (or at least pretty easy to convert) you always have the option to use 3.5 material your DM approves (except for PFS play).1) That was a serious case of false advertising if you ask me.
2) Many a DM I have met find conversion to be too much of a hassle.
I agree.
I abandoned my Castle Whiterock conversion around level 2. Class differences and skill allocations being the biggest culprits, monster advancement and reductions as well (those rules are anything but clear cut).
Strangely, i started to play pathfinder when i realised that it have many things i wished 3.5 had. Those are knight-ish half casters like Magus and Inquisitor wich combine spells and meelee. Those are rules for combat manuevers.
Where i could not find suitable class for myself in 3.5, in Pathfinder i cant choose between them as there so many new ones/changes in old ones (cleric's channel energy and more domain powers as exemple)/archetypes that makes existing classes to get new flavour.
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Well Paizo and 3.5 tend to have a much different design intent. I really question how Pathfinder can be seen to be any more balanced than 3.5 but thats a different topic.
3.5's goal was to allow possibilities. Very "yes you can, but. . ." Pathfinder on the other hand takes a more "no, but if you would have built this instead you could have" philosophy of design.
While I do like a lot of 3PP material, its very hit or miss if a DM will allow it, and might not have any future material to help keep it relavent as the game progresses. Also being autobanned in PFS kills it for a lot of people.
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While I do like a lot of 3PP material, its very hit or miss if a DM will allow it, and might not have any future material to help keep it relavent as the game progresses. Also being autobanned in PFS kills it for a lot of people.
More like miss by an inch or miss by a mile from the reactions I've seen.
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So let me get this straight, you're upset that Pathfinder puts as much effort into making things as balanced as they do because that means you can't find as many ways to break the game. . . Personally, I'm thrilled that you aren't getting what you want, and I say to Paizo, keep it up.
Now if I misunderstood, if you're just tired of Golarion, or perhaps Pathfinder's release rate, I'd suggest looking into 3pp. There's a wealth of material there, and much of it is very high quality (and not a small amount written by people who also write for Paizo).
As an aside, I do find it telling that you miss digging through the books, but not the gameplay. Perhaps you and Paizo have different definitions of what 3.5 was all about.
Hello there.
You both misunderstand me, and get it precisely right.
I'm not upset about the effort they put into their products, it would require me getting upset about people actually doing their jobs and that'd just be silly.
What I miss about 3.5 is the freedom, the vast and multiple options, both as a player, and most certainly also as a GM. The reason I loved going through the books wasn't that I love the books more than playing the game, no it was that the books was a vast source of pure inspiration.
I dearly miss finding some strange new prestige class that wasn't in my world before, but could become an interesting organization if I tweaked it just right. Pathfinder is either us using their world and their organizations, or not getting anything new in the prestige class department – We still get more and more archetypes, though the quality seems to be dropping steadily and they’re becoming more and more lackluster.
I have tried looking into the 3rd party marked on various occasions, for a few dollars per PDF I can manage a peak every now and again and there's always the d20pfsrd to browse if I'm feeling poor.
My problem with 3rd party materials is that so far they have disappointed me every time. Either the fluff promise a lot more than the crunch delivers or it seems uninspired and somewhat flat overall.
Tying that to the Ultimate Psionics book, I must admit that it seemed mostly like a reprint of the old 3.5 book with some very minor changes, I was especially disappointed with the updates to the Soulknife, but let’s not get into that.
As an aside, I felt slightly offended that you concluded that because I miss going through the books, I didn’t miss the gameplay. The gameplay in 3.5 and Pathfinder is basically the same, so since I’m still playing Pathfinder I have no real reason to miss it. I still miss the options though.
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I was especially disappointed with the updates to the Soulknife, but let’s not get into that.
What? No, let's get into this, because now I'm curious. I thought the Soulknife revamp was one of the best things about the book - it made the class playable and on-par with the other psionic classes, rather than a straggling lower-BAB featless fighter who got a free weapon.
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Paizo is a company that makes adventure paths, modules and campaign setting material as their primary products and source of income and rules as their secondary product. WotC got that the other way round. So as long as Paizo is operating under that paradigm, you'll never see them churning rules options at the same ratio as WotC did. That also means you'll see a new edition of the game far later (if at all), because the business model is not dependent on having people re-buy stuff every X years.
Before this turns into a flamewar, I'll have to toss this line of wisdom as a reminder.
To each their own.
On the side-lines, I am also curious about that Soulknife revamp comment that the OP gave.
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Paizo is a company that makes adventure paths, modules and campaign setting material as their primary products and source of income and rules as their secondary product. WotC got that the other way round. So as long as Paizo is operating under that paradigm, you'll never see them churning rules options at the same ratio as WotC did. That also means you'll see a new edition of the game far later (if at all), because the business model is not dependent on having people re-buy stuff every X years.
Hello sinister talking bag.
I understand their buisness model and in may ways I must agree that it seems to be far more solid than the "relaunch every five years" of Wizards.
But that said, I still miss the options of the old edition. It's like Pathfinder is being made as a system to run Golarion the RPG and I think that's a little sad, a solid, tested and loved RPG is beautifully updated, only to become the gears of the Golarion money machine. 3.5 is dead, Golarion the RPG thrives.
That said; I have reflavored a great many things from the various Golarion materials to suit me better, I just yearn for something more general in build.
I was especially disappointed with the updates to the Soulknife, but let’s not get into that.What? No, let's get into this, because now I'm curious. I thought the Soulknife revamp was one of the best things about the book - it made the class playable and on-par with the other psionic classes, rather than a straggling lower-BAB featless fighter who got a free weapon.
Hmm. I'll try.
My main problem with the old Soulknife is the same as everyone else's; it was a weird mix between a Fighter and a Rogue, with some psionics thrown in for flavor. It wasn’t very good at fighting, it was quite on the slow side at rogueing and its psionic abilities took up actions that prevented you using it effectively. Basically it seemed like a poor attempt at making a psionic assassin core class.
Now it has been updated to something of the same. If I’ve read it correctly – and I must admit that I haven’t studied it extensively – it got full base attack and the corresponding d10 hit die. The skills is pretty much the same, the ability to psionically charge his weapon still takes up actions to add dice and the blade can still be improved to some version of magical.
So now he looks like a psionic Magus without powers. He’s become an acceptable fighter, but his damage is still lacking, he’s still a bad rogue and he hasn’t quite become the psionic assassin he once tried to be. Overall that’s quite disappointing to me.
Had the update been in my hands I would have either taken him more in the warrior direction, giving him weapon traning with his weapon, weapon specialization, improved critical, heavier armor and maybe a psionic shield ability. Or I would have gone more rogue, adding trapfinding, a sneak attack-like psionic ability and possibly something like the ninja’s ability to use vanish.
The ideas are probably not very balanced in and on their own, but they’re just that, ideas. What, I think, the class really lacks is focus. It seems to suffer a bit from the same confusion that has the monk trying to be many things and ending up not being very good at any of them. I love the idea of the Soulknife, but it’s one of the cases where the crunch doesn’t match the fluff.
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Paizo is a company that makes adventure paths, modules and campaign setting material as their primary products and source of income and rules as their secondary product. WotC got that the other way round. So as long as Paizo is operating under that paradigm, you'll never see them churning rules options at the same ratio as WotC did. That also means you'll see a new edition of the game far later (if at all), because the business model is not dependent on having people re-buy stuff every X years.Hello sinister talking bag.
I understand their buisness model and in may ways I must agree that it seems to be far more solid than the "relaunch every five years" of Wizards.
But that said, I still miss the options of the old edition. It's like Pathfinder is being made as a system to run Golarion the RPG and I think that's a little sad, a solid, tested and loved RPG is beautifully updated, only to become the gears of the Golarion money machine. 3.5 is dead, Golarion the RPG thrives.
That said; I have reflavored a great many things from the various Golarion materials to suit me better, I just yearn for something more general in build.
I can understand that desire. The things is, you are missing a very important part of the pathfinder model as a whole. 3rd Party Publishers. You want new options? Rite Publishing, Super Genius Games, Kobold Press, Dreamscared Press and many others have you covered.
I am with you on the need for new options. I love finding something new and interesting to add to my game, or to use in someone elses. The need for something new and fresh is strong in me too. And the beautiful thing is, due to how open and cooperative paizo is. It doenst have to just come from them. All their rpg material is open content, so 3pps arent handicapped by only having the core rules to work with. Want new options for your inquisitor? 3pps have you covered. Want some new magic items, spells, classes? My friend, you are but a click of the 'Compatable Products' link away.
Its actually a really nice balance if you ask me. By having a completely open system, industry veterans (most of the successful 3pps have long time rpg writers working for them) can take that and roll with it to fill the urges of folks like us.
While paizo can focus on the material that will best enable them to keep the current ruleset flowing, and keeping their core fanbase happy with a slower flow of 'official' rules. The can also focus on the material that helps more games keep running longer (things that help GMS).
3.x is alive and well, and creativity with its good, bad, and rediculous is still flowing. You just have to look past the 'big name' brand, and look at the additional publishers that are supporting the kinds of things you want. Unlike wizards who wanted everything to happen in house, paizo is happy to let dreamscared press do 'psionics' and leave them free to take their time and remain a relatively small company that is within the comfort zone of their management.
One thing you are missing is that the small, slow quality focused mentality of paizo, though sometimes infuriating, flows from the top. I genuinely believe that Lisa cares about the product she puts out, and isnt just interested in profits. I might not love everything paizo does, or even agree with them doing it, but what I do know is the their corporate culture makes me want to keep playing pathfinder as much as their rules do.
If that means I have to turn to other sources for my new option fix, so be it. The game and hopefully the community will be healthier for it.
Edit:
I missed your post on your experiences with 3rd party materials. Can I ask what you have looked at? Clearly you have looked at and not loved the dreamscared press stuff. What else have you checked out? I'm sure people could make some suggestions if you need guidance through the abundance of material.
@Kolokotroni
As others have pointed out here, many a DM is VERY much against 3rd Party Published materials, most of the ones I know included.
@Kolokotroni
As others have pointed out here, many a DM is VERY much against 3rd Party Published materials, most of the ones I know included.
Many dms also banned half or more of the splat books in 3.5. How is that different?
Not to mention that eventually people need to come around to the fact that the 3pp scene for pathfinder is not the same as it was in 3rd edition. Many 3pp writers work FOR paizo on paizo products. Paizo works openly with and supports its 3pp community. The quality is higher then it was in the era of the d20 3pp craze.
If your dm isnt open to any 3pp material, but is open to everything paizo, something is wrong. After all paizo was a 3pp themselves not more then a few years ago. There isnt some magic line on whats official anymore. Paizo even uses 3pp material in their products (particularly their adventures). The mentality has to change eventually, because they are missing out on some really great material.
If your dm is just looking to limit options to a subset that is easier to manage, he probably would have applied limits to paizo material if paizo was expanding its library as fast as wizards did anyway. And your dm allowed all wizards material in 3.5, but isnt open to 3pp material in pathfinder, again, something is really off in that equation.
I mean some of the dms in my group had a similar mentality. So I ran games where I allowed, and even encouraged the use of 3pp material. End result? They are more open to it, because there are alot of very cool, very fun, and quite balanced options out there.
Yeah, I have a DM who isn't open to any 3PP material but is fine with other Paizo products.
He is also against any and all homebrews, despite the fact that said works are balanced and fluffed properly.
One of my fellow players said that I should try changing his views by being a generous/open-minded DM myself, which I have been.
I think you have the same issue I do with Pathfinder. They abandoned Prestige Classes. Instead they balanced the classes to have powerful upgrades from 1st to 20th. In most cases it is highly ineffective to multiclass in PF. In 3.5 there was no reason to stay in a base/core class past 5th level. You jumped into a Prestige class as soon as possible.
The optimizer in me loved the 3.5 model. As you said... you could poor through all the splat-books, mixing and matching different builds. Most thought it powergaming but I always felt it a meta-game within the game. A thought exercise to give you the Table top RPG fix inbetween games. Alot of the combo's I created I would never have played in a game (though I did use them alot when I DMed), but they where fun to create.
You cant do that in PF. You are almost required to stick to a base class. Your archtype is picked at first level and fills the role Prestige classes did from a RP standpoint but fail horribly from an option standpoint. I can understand why they went this route. Its much easier to balance. In 3.5, every splat book that introduced new prestige classes usually led to someone figuring out a new crazy combo that blew the power level away. But that was what the DM was there for... to say No. In PF they take it upon themselves to make sure it is balanced and they do that by limiting options.
Pick Race - Pick Class - Pick Archtype - Level to 20.
Balanced - Yes. Fun - Yes. Good for Optimization junkies - No.
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I think you have the same issue I do with Pathfinder. They abandoned Prestige Classes. Instead they balanced the classes to have powerful upgrades from 1st to 20th. In most cases it is highly ineffective to multiclass in PF. In 3.5 there was no reason to stay in a base/core class past 5th level. You jumped into a Prestige class as soon as possible.
The optimizer in me loved the 3.5 model. As you said... you could poor through all the splat-books, mixing and matching different builds. Most thought it powergaming but I always felt it a meta-game within the game. A thought exercise to give you the Table top RPG fix inbetween games. Alot of the combo's I created I would never have played in a game (though I did use them alot when I DMed), but they where fun to create.
You cant do that in PF. You are almost required to stick to a base class. Your archtype is picked at first level and fills the role Prestige classes did from a RP standpoint but fail horribly from an option standpoint. I can understand why they went this route. Its much easier to balance. In 3.5, every splat book that introduced new prestige classes usually led to someone figuring out a new crazy combo that blew the power level away. But that was what the DM was there for... to say No. In PF they take it upon themselves to make sure it is balanced and they do that by limiting options.
Pick Race - Pick Class - Pick Archtype - Level to 20.
Balanced - Yes. Fun - Yes. Good for Optimization junkies - No.
First off there is a fair amount of optimization with the rules in the hardback books. Just the class and archetype can mean alot, but also every class has feats to choose, and then most importantly, most classes have further customizations as you level up. Talents, rage powers, what kind of divine bond you choose etc. Yes this is alot more contained then the 3.5 prestige class mania, but there is room for optimization.
Second, may I recommend the Super Genius Games Talented line of classes. So far they have fighter, rogue, monk, and cavalier. These classes leave every class feature a choice. You want room for your optimization fix? You have it. And as a bonus, each and every ability in those classes was written by paizo, they are just all the archetypes broken down into selectable options as you level up the class. There are even options for mixing the rogue and the monk, which opens the way to some really cool concepts.
Another highly flexible (and thus optimizable) option is the Super Genius Godling. Again, everything those classes (there are actually 4 flavors of godling) gets is choosable.
Also including 3rd party material also makes those initial choices (race, class and archetype) more interesting to character building junkies. There are dozens of 3rd party classes, races, and who knows how many archetypes out there to choose from. The options are there, you just have to go past paizo for them.
How many rule books per year do you think they should produce, OP? (In your ideal world).
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Paizo is a company that makes adventure paths, modules and campaign setting material as their primary products and source of income and rules as their secondary product. WotC got that the other way round. So as long as Paizo is operating under that paradigm, you'll never see them churning rules options at the same ratio as WotC did. That also means you'll see a new edition of the game far later (if at all), because the business model is not dependent on having people re-buy stuff every X years.
Of which I am very very thankful for.
I think 3.5 blows Pathfinder out of the water in almost every way, but, in the end, it's the adventures and APs I love the most - and that's all Paizo.
And that's why Paizo has the best chance at getting any of my money - adventures, adventures, adventures.
(And I just use them in our 3.5 game - AFAIC, I win both ways!)
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1st problem: Wizards made little OGC. I would love updated Hexblades and Beguilers but it’s illegal.
(If Wizards is not doing anything with their plethora of classes, feats and et cetera, then I wish they would make them open game content.)
2nd problem: 3rd party material can be a lot like much of Wizards’ 3.5: meh.
Some are very good; some are okay. Just like with 3.5, you got to hunt…a lot.
I recommend Super Genius Games and Kobold Press off the top of my head. Also, the Multiclass-Archetypes-V-More-Ultimate-MCAs has some brilliant work!
How many rule books per year do you think they should produce, OP? (In your ideal world).
<--- Clearly not the OP
I think 6 would be fantastic. I even think that if they were to take the companion line and the campaign setting line and blend those together into 3 hardback's a year I would be thrilled. The disposable 19.99 splats just don't do it for me, but if they were edited better, and more selective about what made the cut then 12, 64 pages splats could become 3 256 page hardbacks pretty easily.
Anyway,
I think what has a bunch of people feeling like this is that 2013 has been the year of the DM for paizo. Which is fine for some (me included, I DM 2 regular games) but the players can't much use out of Ultimate Campaign, Or Bestiary 4. Which leaves only Mythic, and if your DM doesn't want to use it, then guess what? Hope you liked 2012's books a lot because that's all you get! If you are like my players the Ultimate Equipment didn't scratch their itch for RPG books the way character option books usually do. NPC guide? DM Helper only. Race guide? Good book, but not really getting it done either... Lets see... oh Bestiary 3 now back in 2011, DM helper... And then... Ultimate Combat. Whew! The last really *good* book paizo has released with players in mind over DM's came out the summer of 2011. Over two years people have been itching for some new serious options.
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I agree somewhat with the original post's perspectives. The thing that we lack the most are generic prestige classes not tied to the Golarian setting. I like some of the setting specific ones but they are very binding flavor-wise. Yes, as a GM I can tailor them to my needs but I don't have time for that. Just give me some non-setting specific prestige classes and I will be happy.
As far as feats go, I think we have enough and then some.
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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Dear Paizo,
Please stop following the business model that catapulted you into success as the industry leader. Instead, I want you to adopt the strategy that killed the previous industry leader.
Also, stop listening to your fans--those idiots don't know what they really want.
Thanks,
The OP
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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To answer you more srsly:
You get a new Player Companion every month. Between Core, APG/ARG, UM/UC, and various Player Companion/Campaign Setting books, you have tons of options. I would be willing to wager that if you compared, for instance, the number of official feats currently in print for PF versus those in print for 3.5, PF would have more. Not to mention traits. I concede that 3.5 probably had more spells. They're probably even steven on magic items.
Not to mention 3PP content.
For what it's worth, the juju oracle thing was the Golarion line, which is entirely different from the Core line. The teams don't overlap as much, so the golarion line revisiting the Juju doesn't impact the ACG playtest.
Especially since the Juju oracle was probably written 8 to 9 months ago, possibly even before work on the ACG started.
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the older I get, the better I was
It's like Pathfinder is being made as a system to run Golarion the RPG.
That's exactly what it is. The setting and the campaigns are first and foremost. The Pathfinder ruleset is just a game made to play them with. It's always been that way. That was the intent from the get-go. Golarion was made with 3.5 in mind. When 3.5 ceased to be supported, PF was made to keep Golarion going.
Granted, I'm saying this as someone who doesn't play in Golarion, as well as someone who very readily and frequently converts up 3.5 stuff to use in his games and allows 3pp stuff freely so long as I have access to it. I'm running two PF-only (1st and 3rd parties allowed) campaigns right now, mostly because I had several newbies in my group when I started them, but future campaigns I'll be going back to the PF/3.5 hybrid I normally play.
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To answer you more srsly:
You get a new Player Companion every month. Between Core, APG/ARG, UM/UC, and various Player Companion/Campaign Setting books, you have tons of options. I would be willing to wager that if you compared, for instance, the number of official feats currently in print for PF versus those in print for 3.5, PF would have more. Not to mention traits. I concede that 3.5 probably had more spells. They're probably even steven on magic items.
Not to mention 3PP content.
Current Number of PF Feats published (all lines included) - 1428.
Number of Feats published in 3.5 at end of product life - 3304.Not even half... just sayin'.
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If your dm isnt open to any 3pp material, but is open to everything paizo, something is wrong. After all paizo was a 3pp themselves not more then a few years ago. There isnt some magic line on whats official anymore. Paizo even uses 3pp material in their products (particularly their adventures). The mentality has to change eventually, because they are missing out on some really great material.
I think that's a bit unfair. Why is there something wrong just because a GM doesn't want to allow certain material in their games? There can be a number of legitimate reasons for that.
There's a very simple reason that very little 3PP content makes its way into my games... Lack of support for Hero Lab. Out of my group, I'm one of two people who has been playing d20 based games for a long time. The others are either brand new or normally play games like World of Darkness and a number of indie horror games. They don't have the background in it and the ability to just sit down and write up a character quickly, so we use Hero Lab to speed things up. Plus, as a GM, it just makes life easier for me. The combat manager provides a nice simple way to keep initiative and vital stats in order, and I can insert important NPCs and modify on the fly in minutes rather than having to fully stat them (for the ones that actually need stats of course, the rest just get thought up on the fly).
The other GM in the group at the moment, who's running Reign of Winter book one while I have a break before jumping into running the second book of Shattered Star, is one of the players who doesn't normally play Pathfinder, and he finds Hero Lab indispensable for keeping things in order and easy to find. We both have a policy, as long as something is in Hero Lab, and we've had a read over it and decided that it's not horrifically unbalanced (I tend to be the final judge on that), we'll allow it, whether it's from Paizo or from 3PP. I sometimes make exceptions if someone can give me a compelling reason to include something I don't have HL files for.
I buy a bit of 3PP stuff now and then as well, mostly to mine for ideas for my homebrew setting. But like I said, crunch wise, unless it's in Hero Lab, it probably isn't going to make it into my game as a player option. The major exception to this is a few customised rules regarding magic that I'm working on for my own setting, but those are more to do with the availability of certain spell like abilities than anything else.
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I'm starting to almost resent Hero Lab for that reason alone. It's pretty annoying to consistently see "Nope, not in HL so not interested."
I'm starting to almost resent Hero Lab for that reason alone. It's pretty annoying to consistently see "Nope, not in HL so not interested."
+1
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I've got no common ground with the OP. I've got all my 3.5 books if I need something new and wacky. I've got ridiculous amounts of 3PP thanks to the OGL and the compatibility license. I haven't even gotten through all of the APG, let alone UC and UM. I'm sitting pretty.
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Well, the advertising line for Pathfinder is "3.5 thrives!" and since the rules are compatible (or at least pretty easy to convert) you always have the option to use 3.5 material your DM approves (except for PFS play).1) That was a serious case of false advertising if you ask me.
2) Many a DM I have met find conversion to be too much of a hassle.
I don't find that to be the case, though it depends on how the material is being used.
Obviously all the base mechanics work practically identically. And if I am using 3.5 material as a DM (say City of the Spider Queen adventure) I don't bother with much conversion work. Things are close enough with just a skill swap here, or replace old stats with Bestiary stats.
If it is for a player (such as a PrC) then its a little more work.
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after APG, the ultimate books and player companions,
there is much to much rules bloat already for my taste
.....and I haven't even bought ultimate magic and races guide
my pathfindher group uses core rulebook, a few feats from 3.5 and one player uses the 3.5 spell compandium, they could use ultimate combat and APG but they never as much as opened any of them.
the druid and soccerer player have never used the oportnity to use the spell compandium o.O
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Dear Paizo,
Please stop following the business model that catapulted you into success as the industry leader. Instead, I want you to adopt the strategy that killed the previous industry leader.
Also, stop listening to your fans--those idiots don't know what they really want.
Thanks,
The OP
Now that is just blatantly offensive. I have said nothing of the sort, nor will you ever catch me saying anything as tacky and simple minded as that.
I have simply stated which trends I miss from 3,5. I have at no point asked, demanded or required anything from Paizo, nor will I. This is their game and therefor theirs to do with as they see fit.
I simply posted a small piece of my mind and you are free to agree or disagree as you see fit. I will not stop speaking my mind, nor will I descend to the level of throwing insults, sorry.
the older I get, the better I was
I sense the Sarcasm-smurf lurking somewhere in this ;)
But I don't feel that way, I always have room to grow, to learn, to become better. I have learned a lot from Pathfinder, but that doesn't mean that I should forget what I learned from 3.5.
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is he lurking somewhere while wearing rose-colored glasses and standing in grass that is not quite as green as the grass on the other side
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It's like Pathfinder is being made as a system to run Golarion the RPG and I think that's a little sad
I gotta be honest I was really not agreeing with much that you've said until this.
Now I think I see where you're coming from and I'm kind of onboard.
Golarion as a setting does very little for me and a sizable protion of Paizo's product lines are very golarion specific. Personaly I would be elated if they did more high quality world generic crunch stuff.
Other people seem to like it and buy it like candy though so I can't fault them for continuing to produce it.
- Torger
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I for one like the amount of material Paizo puts out regarding core rules. I actually don't think physically they can put out a higher rate of core books...just look at the frequency of delays in getting product out.
If anything, I would prefer them to cut back...Trying to keep up with the different lines is difficult with the amount of product they produce, and some of those delays mentioned above mean that if you are on multiple subscriptions you might get a pretty ridiculous bill some months.
At any rate...this coming year we are going to get 10 new classes plus a ton of support for divine characters (archetypes/prestige classes, obediences). Also, it's a bit unfair to compare all the splats for 3.0/3.5 with what is published for Pathfinder. After all, 3.5/3.0 has had twice the amount of time or so to accumulate books, and Pathfinder has had to spend at least some of their hardcovers just updating classes and rules from 3.5 to Pathfinder (Gamemastery guide, Bestiary 1 and 2, Core Rule book...). Of course 3.5/3.0 are going to have more options!