The Golarion setting takes place in a universe where alien life is allowed to exist. Maybe not pointed out, but the possibility certainly is there. Practically every planet in the Golarion star system has life and the existence of the portal on the last planet and the ships out in the Dark Tapestry says that this isn't unique to the Golarion system.
Well, I've been reading through my collection of Pathfinder novels and just finished Death's Heretic. It got me thinking. If the Great Beyond exists outside the Material Plane, then all the thousand thousand worlds should be no more or less distant from the Beyond than Golarion is. And plane-hopping adventurers should be seeing those creatures just as much as Material Plane denizens of Golarion.
Well, maybe they are, and those alien races are just lost in the background. Likewise if we're talking about the dead in the River of Souls.
But then, what about non-mortal entities of those other worlds? From Golarion alone, at least four mortals have ascended to godhood. So we should be seeing the same thing happening from other worlds. So my question is this:
Why is there no BeelzeSpock, patron deity of logic and fascination to the people of 40 Eridani, to be found in the afterlife?
Or, more seriously, how is it that out of a thousand thousand worlds from the Material Plane, the only gods to be found are those either already existing, or new members from Golarion? I mean, besides "Golarion is the focus of our game setting so we just didn't bother to add anything else". The in-universe explanation.
I think that the in-game reason why Golarion is so important is because it is a cage for Rovagug.
You do raise an interesting point though. Maybe aliens become petitioners too? Is there anything that states that all petitioners have to look humanoid?
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Because the "afterlife" is when you are resurrected on an Aligned plane that matches you, wherein you change species, so it doesn't matter what species you were before you will be whatever Angel/Demon/etc you end up as.
There are indeed Deities from other parts of the Material Plane: Desna for one, the Elven deities from their home world Castrovel, the Dominions of the Black and Outer Gods/Great Old Ones which have followers on Golarion, and one might guess that Brigh is from the world of Constructs, to name a few. Deities from a world are going to be predisposed to being interested/concerned with matters of their home word, and to actually be known of by mortals of that home world in the first place, so the fact that a disproportionate number of deities known of/worshipped on a planet are ascended Deities from that world just makes sense.
You might as well fault Paizo for not detailing the infiniteness of the Golarion universe.
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Across all the books released so far, we're only getting a tiny tiny slice of what's actually out there in the infinite multiverse, and it's through a Golarion-centric lens. This applies not only to the planar landscape but also to the aspects of the deities and outsiders as perceived through that Golarion perspective.
That is, Pharasma might look as much like a human as she does a Brethedan or a Spathi or a Graborxlnox. It depends on who is looking at her. It's not that all the gods are based on Golarion-symmetries, it's just that viewers perceive them as something comprehensible as opposed to the incomprehensible true divine forms. So a Golarionite sees a Kelshite looking Sarenrae, a Vercite sees a Vercite-looking Zaern-Ra, the Ilee see the Shapeless Flame, and so on. This would leave the ascended deities as being locked in, and that's just a case of us not being introduced to them yet.
As for outsiders, that perception issue likely applies to a point, combined with us simply not yet seeing all the variant appearances of these specific outsider species based on their mortal origins. Mechanically all planetar angels are the same, but they could look human, elven, dwarven, orcish, vercite, triaxan, lashuntan, brethedan, turian, rachni, geth, twi'lek, wookie, protoss, ur-quan, or whatever else.
When you get to agathions and visualize them according to alien ecosystems, things get crazy. :)
We possibly only see the Golarion-alikes because those that get called to that world might be more closely attuned to it and all the excursions onto the planes dip so relatively shallow into the planes' infinite depth that we only see familiar faces rather than the staggering myriad shapes of all of reality's souls. Like a tourist taking a trip to another country and only exploring as far a just outside the plane. ;)
(Distant Worlds god/outsider reskinning-by-planet is fun)
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Having everyone share the same identical Heaven, for example, would be a bit silly, since the place would end up looking like the Mos Eisley cantina with a motley assortment of alien angels.
Yes. And, also, yes.
And that's the thing, those gods who do purport to be gods of *everything* and not just gods of a few folk on one planet, such as Pharasma, are odds-approaching-zero of looking remotely humanoid, since Golarion, and all the humanoid life upon it, is a tiny freckle on the rump of their vast realm of influence.
It's a case of 'so big it's meaningless.' The numbers went past ludicrous to plaid. Buckle your seatbelt and enjoy the ride.
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Explains why monstrous humanoids, much less things that look even less human, overwhelmingly tend towards evil. Look at all the good gods, angels, etc. All look not only humanoid, but pretty damn human. It's pretty obviously a club that they aren't invited to. So why not join Team Evil? Hell...look at demons...they obviously let you in their club no matter what physical form you take.
Lesson: Team Evil is much more inclusive than Team Good, who are a bunch of pompous a&*@!+*s who are only concerned with letting you in the club if you're their "type".
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That is, Pharasma might look as much like a human as she does a Brethedan or a Spathi or a Graborxlnox. It depends on who is looking at her. It's not that all the gods are based on Golarion-symmetries, it's just that viewers perceive them as something comprehensible as opposed to the incomprehensible true divine forms. So a Golarionite sees a Kelshite looking Sarenrae, a Vercite sees a Vercite-looking Zaern-Ra, the Ilee see the Shapeless Flame, and so on.
This is pretty much how I assume things work. Babylon 5's Vorlons are a perfect example. Whether that's a natural perception thing or the deity in question deciding whether to appear in their "natural" form or switch on some kind of perception-friendly filter in order to more easily communicate with a group of mortals is another matter :)
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I go with planer 'ghettos', myself.
I've been given this (and many other RPG metaphysical questions) a LOT of thought for some 35+ years, and I think just like RW, "birds of a feather flock together".
So when you die, you appear in the humanocentric portion of the afterlife. You could travel (on near-infinite planes!) to another region where other dead dwell, but you have nothing in common with them at all - they are ALIENS. Near you would be other, very similar races - ones that you may have known in life (like Elves, dwarves, etc..) - but the more different something is from what you were, the further away it would be. As I said, on a near-infinite plane, that could be billions of miles (of course, some believe souls travel at the speed of thought... but this is D&D...)
Also, only in the Prime is everything 'set in stone' (and even then, not nearly as much as people think, hence 'magic'). In the outer planes, people see what they expect to see. So if if you are traveling through a strange city on your way somewhere, the people there may seem a little 'off' to you, but not enough for you pay it much mind (since focusing on anything after you die is pretty damn hard, from what I've read). What they looked like during life has no real bearing on what you are seeing, and the same goes for them when they view YOU (some odd stranger passing through).
This would also apply to the celestials/fiends of the setting, if the dead have 'earned the right' to become one. Of course what you see when viewing an angel is an impossibly beautiful woman. A halfling would see a shorter version, and an elf one with pointy ears (and more androgynous). A dwarf would see bearded angels, etc. Now something else entirely may see some sort of green, 6-eyed, four-armed monstrosity... and think it beautiful.
We see what we expect, unless the being is powerful enough to force its own perceptions on YOU, which is what happens in the case of deities (Thus, a god can appear as its its 'default' expected appearance, or force its own perception on you, whatever that may be), which is why gods can appear as anything they want. The one caveat is that they will still find it very hard to hide some major defect you expect to see (like a missing hand, eye, etc..) - such deformities can be hidden, though, through different takes on the theme (Hence, Gruumsh can appear as a Cyclops).
As to why we don't encounter more of these 'alien' gods - its because of the 'Ghetto theory' again - most everything hangs out in areas where they are known. A deity (or whatever) loses power as it moves away from its worship-base, so they tend to stay near those that know them. A god can travel to other regions/worlds and become known, but they would start-out at the exarch/demigod level of power there, and therefor be extremely vulnerable, which is why very few gods even try to become multi-spheric powers.
Thats my story, and I'm sticking to it.
That is, Pharasma might look as much like a human as she does a Brethedan or a Spathi
...Spathi would hate the Pathfinderverse. They're not safe from anything, anywhere, anytime, not even from their own dead. o.O;
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...Thats my story, and I'm sticking to it.
...Well, OK... :-)
But it seems like you're ignoring some of the actual specifics of the Golarion universe, similar to the OP.Mortal souls reincarnated as Outsiders in the Outer Planes generally don't retain memories of their mortal lives, nor retain their cultures or languages. (Outsider races who DO know "Common" for whatever reason could actually be expected to have members that know Taldan/Undercommon/Tien/Kelesh/Brethedan/etc, i.e. some mortal language, rather than just one single "Common" language which is a game abstraction - same as Humans are listed as speaking "Common"). Apparently Distant Worlds, as mentioned by Mikaze, mixes that up a bit with variant Outsider forms with more resemblance to whatever Mortal form they had, although I don't think (?) that's actually a correlation that's enforced across the board, i.e. not all Outsiders' forms are necessarily related to their mortal soul predecessor's.
I just don't find the known Gods as conflicting with there being many Gods from many planets and regions of both the Material and other Planes. There really is many 'alien' Gods known and/or worshipped on Golarion, either wholly mainstream major Gods or marginal cult figures. The prominence of the Deities ascended from local mortals only makes sense. There is a host of Deities whose origins or nature isn't particularly known, e.g. Yamatsumi god of winter, mountains, and volcanoes. Is that a force of Golarion nature, or a broader force of nature beyond just Golarion? Who knows. There's no reason to believe that many Deities or Deity-stand-ins DON'T extend beyond or originate from beyond Golarion. Likewise, Humanoids are a diverse bunch, and they seem to spawn on many planets and regions, Golarion itself has plenty of non-Humanoid intelligent life, and far flung regions of the Material (and other) Plane(s) can reasonably include both Humanoid and non-Humanoid intelligent life, and deities ascended from those.
Not ignoring anything - I completely agree with what you say.
I believe many gods that we think are differenlty are rally the same being (in a different guise), and by the same token, two similar dieites with the same name from different spheres may not be the same being at all - gods are notorious for using aliases, and why bother creating a new religion when you can kill another god and take his stuff (or just find one that is already missing for some reason, but known in that sphere).
When gods can look like whatever they want, and mortals see what they expect to see, then the whole concept of 'alien' goes right out the window. A god is no longer a member of its former race - its a ball of energy that uses a manifestation when it needs to deal with mortals. At first many of them probably stick to the look they had in life, but its not necessary, and older gods may be from races that don't even exist anymore.
Not just gods are a ball of energy/spiritstuff, everything is, they are all outsiders. What petitioners see is based on their belief from previous life, until they expand their awareness and merge/become gods/planes. Similar is with planewalkers, death is a way of planewalking.
After all, you don't see any Humans or Vulcans in Sto-Vo-Kor.Maybe heaven is just highly highly segregated. Because we all know it's not heaven if you have to mingle with those who aren't like you.
:P
Yeah, you don't see Greeks in Hel, or Celts in Elysium, mostly.
The Race, on the other hand, firmly believe that every sentient in the universe goes to their afterlife and is rightfully ruled over by the Race's dead Emperors.
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Hmmm. Now that is interesting. I wonder if you are a Lawful soul and die and wind up in Axis do you eventually become an Axiomite? Can you run across say a slain creature from another world when you evolve to a higher state in the afterlife? Wouldn't that be a culture shock when you had to learn another way of life.
Creative Director
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There are absolutely aliens in the afterlife... but they don't necessarilly go to the same outer planes as life forms from Golarion! The outer sphere, remember, is UNIMAGINABLY vast, and there are COUNTLESS other planes out there for other cultures and other races (including all those aliens) to go to.
Not all Lawful Good souls go to heaven, in other words. There are other Lawful Good outer planes out there as well. We just don't talk about them for the same reason we don't really focus much on other worlds than Golarion and (to a much lesser extent) the distant worlds of Golarion's solar system—we just don't have the time or resources to detail everything.
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So I was right...there's a sign hanging above Heaven saying "no aliens allowed".
ha... no.
There's aliens allowed, if those aliens have a culture in which Heaven plays a part. Heaven is primarily a human-linked construct though, since it's inspired by us humans, after all.
Not just gods are a ball of energy/spiritstuff, everything is, they are all outsiders.
I'm not actually sure that all Gods are Outsiders, ascended Humanoids in particular just became mythic enough and picked up Divine Source enough until they counted as Deities. They could have other effects which changed their type to Outsider, but it seems wholly plausible for Humanoid (X) to be a Deity while not being an Outsider... And in fact, for some Deities to NOT be Immortal, since that isn't tied to Divine Source (while it is another Mythic ability they could pick up, of course).
I feel like the OP unjustifiably conflated Deities with "the afterlife" (=reincarnating on outer planes in Pathfinder), which while there IS certain associations, Deities OFTEN roll with Outsiders and live there, there isn't a hard correlation. Deities and Outsiders are ultimately other types of powerful being in Pathfinder universe. Some Outsiders are reincarnated mortal souls, some are not.
Can you run across say a slain creature from another world when you evolve to a higher state in the afterlife? Wouldn't that be a culture shock when you had to learn another way of life.
Considering that reincarnated souls are not usually supposed to retain their personal memories (or at least they forget them eventually), I don't see what the difference is.
I wonder if any Petitioners who were not reincarnated as Outsiders but just freely wandered the multiverse ever end up becoming Deities themselves?
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This actually comes up in The Redemption Engine as well. (Aliens and the planes in one of my novels? Shocking, I know.)
Another way to think about this is that Heaven and the other planes are sort of "instanced," to borrow an MMO term. Heaven isn't just a place--it's also a concept, and thus its physics are malleable and naturally accommodate the observer. In order for humanoid (or alien) brains to comprehend it, it has to sort of squish itself down into a shape we can perceive and understand. So is the mountain so huge you could never reach the top, or is it something you could walk up in a day? The answer is to both questions is yes. Similarly, the lawful good realm we call Heaven accommodates all creatures and societies that need it, but must therefore take shapes as varied as all the cultures of the universe. So Heaven is at once the Heaven of Golarion and ALSO all other Heavens put together.
As Jacobs said, so far, all of our setting material has detailed the "Golarion" interpretation of Heaven, but that's only because alternate versions aren't really as useful for our game. (And also because detailing and mapping alternate versions of a near-infinite realm is a sucker's game.) If you want to include a different version, such as from the real world or another game system--go for it! Our assumption is that all of those exist as user-specific aspects of the same intangible, unclassifiable concept-realm.
Confused yet? If so, don't worry. As has often been said, whether or not you believe in this interpretation of Heaven... it believes in you. :D
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Also, while I love the way we present these things in broad strokes, I should note that if you're looking for straight-up, cut-and-dried answers on the absolute nature of Golarion's cosmology, I sincerely hope that we leave you unsatisfied. An afterlife with no mysteries or koan-like contradictions is no afterlife at all, I say. :D
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If you want to include a different version, such as from the real world or another game system--go for it! Our assumption is that all of those exist as user-specific aspects of the same intangible, unclassifiable concept-realm.As somebody who likes including Planescape and the Great Wheel in his cosmology, is it then theoretically possible for somebody to actually swap between user-specific aspects of the same realm, of their own volition?
Only if the GM lets that happen.
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Just because Desna was something else before she adopted a humanoid form does NOT mean she was a scary evil Lovecraftian looking alien. She was not. She was not humanoid, but neither was she a cthulhu.
I like to imagine Desna as being utterly alien/bug-faced in a way that is jaw-droppingly wondrous and beautiful...
But is only absolutely horrifying for folks like Aolar the Huntress. :)
Like a deceptively delicate, utterly badass, beautifully bioluminescent redesigned rachni queen with wings that take what the blue morpho does up to 11. Squared. To the tenth power.
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She would have been the cutest Cthulhu EVAR.
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Mothra?
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She even has little fairy assistants. A couple of lyrakien start singing "Desuna-ya, Desuna..."
And remember that the Outer Gods are fully gods, as powerful (or perhaps far MORE powerful in some cases) as any of the "common" gods of the Outer Sphere, but they are beings of the Material Plane existing out in deep space, not Outsiders (well, maybe Yog-Sothoth could possibly be some kind of weird Outsider-ish... thing. Or possibly a personification of the Material Plane itself, existing on multiple planes simultaneously.)
And I still imagine an ancient rivalry between Desna and the Outer Gods, predating life on Golarion. In fact, I imagine Desna herself as a benign Outer God.
I wonder, where do worshipers of the Outer Gods and Great Old Ones go (other than crazy?) I can't imagine any of them caring a whit about mortal worshipers, so their souls must just be left to Pharasma to deal with as she wills it. And I would imagine she would deal with them rather harshly, at that.
Now there would be a great name for a band; Desna and the Outer Gods. They could open for the Darkest of the Hillside Thickets and Tiger Army.
Station?"I'm sorry sir...they gave me a melvin..."
What? You thought the most intelligent being in the universe was from Earth?
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And remember that the Outer Gods are fully gods, as powerful (or perhaps far MORE powerful in some cases) as any of the "common" gods of the Outer Sphere, but they are beings of the Material Plane existing out in deep space, not Outsiders (well, maybe Yog-Sothoth could possibly be some kind of weird Outsider-ish... thing. Or possibly a personification of the Material Plane itself, existing on multiple planes simultaneously.)
And I still imagine an ancient rivalry between Desna and the Outer Gods, predating life on Golarion. In fact, I imagine Desna herself as a benign Outer God.
I wonder, where do worshipers of the Outer Gods and Great Old Ones go (other than crazy?) I can't imagine any of them caring a whit about mortal worshipers, so their souls must just be left to Pharasma to deal with as she wills it. And I would imagine she would deal with them rather harshly, at that.
Now there would be a great name for a band; Desna and the Outer Gods. They could open for the Darkest of the Hillside Thickets and Tiger Army.
I'd like to imagine Desna as a benign Outer God myself.
The Lovecraft fans may call it heresy. I call it a differing opinion.
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Don't worry about what Lovecraft would think. Worry about what Desna would think.
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An interesting theory. Perhaps I should read up on it...