Grapple and tie up a ghost!


Rules Questions


I have a grappler character, and I want her to be able to use her abilities against incorporeal monsters. The "incorporeal" property of monsters says they can't be grappled (or tripped). If your weapons are magical, they have a 50% chance of inflicting damage. If they are ghost touch, they inflict damage reliably, and a ghost can use them, too.

It doesn't specifically say that weapon's other properties become ghost touch, too, but that would be a poor interpretation of the rules, wouldn't it? If Olga is wearing Ghost Touch armor or armor with Ghost Touch spikes or Ghost Touch gauntlets or Amulet of Mighty Fists with the Ghost Touch enchantment, shouldn't she be able to grapple and pin a ghost or specter, and then with a ghost touch net, rope or dwarven deurgar (the 10' chain weapon), then tie up the ghost?

Doesn't "Ghost Touch" mean that the item is like solid material to a ghost?


Yes


The Tetori Monk's inescapable grasp ability supports this.


Ghost touch net usually spells the end for ghosts, as they usually dont have the make up to free themselves from the kind of fighter that tosses it on them.


Yeah. +1 ghost touch nets work great for such things.

Dark Archive

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Sorry for the necro, but how are people getting ghost touch on a net? As a ranged weapon, I was under the impression that ghost touch wasn't a legal enhancement.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Scott Wilhelm wrote:

I have a grappler character, and I want her to be able to use her abilities against incorporeal monsters. The "incorporeal" property of monsters says they can't be grappled (or tripped). If your weapons are magical, they have a 50% chance of inflicting damage. If they are ghost touch, they inflict damage reliably, and a ghost can use them, too.

It doesn't specifically say that weapon's other properties become ghost touch, too, but that would be a poor interpretation of the rules, wouldn't it? If Olga is wearing Ghost Touch armor or armor with Ghost Touch spikes or Ghost Touch gauntlets or Amulet of Mighty Fists with the Ghost Touch enchantment, shouldn't she be able to grapple and pin a ghost or specter, and then with a ghost touch net, rope or dwarven deurgar (the 10' chain weapon), then tie up the ghost?

Doesn't "Ghost Touch" mean that the item is like solid material to a ghost?

and just to be picky: if your weapons are magical , they deal 50% damage. not 50% chance of dealing damage. pathfinder update from 3.5e.

there's nothing in the ghost touch property that supports that the ghost can be grappled or tied up by a ghost touch weapon. all that it states is that it does full damage. both the weapon and the armor seem to indicate that they can still be passed through, or manipulated, as the ghost desires.

it doesn't look like you can tie up or grapple a ghost. even an amulet of ghost touch mighty fists would only allow you to deal full damage to the ghost, not grapple or restrain it.

incorporeal wrote:
Incorporeal creatures cannot fall or take falling damage. Incorporeal creatures cannot make trip or grapple attacks, nor can they be tripped or grappled. In fact, they cannot take any physical action that would move or manipulate an opponent or its equipment, nor are they subject to such actions.
ghost touch armor wrote:
Incorporeal creatures gain the armor's or shield's enhancement bonus against both corporeal and incorporeal attacks, and they can still pass freely through solid objects.
ghost touch weapon wrote:
A ghost touch weapon deals damage normally against incorporeal creatures, regardless of its bonus. An incorporeal creature's 50% reduction in damage from corporeal sources does not apply to attacks made against it with ghost touch weapons. The weapon can be picked up and moved by an incorporeal creature at any time. A manifesting ghost can wield the weapon against corporeal foes. Essentially, a ghost touch weapon counts as both corporeal or incorporeal. This special ability can only be placed on melee weapons and ammunition.


Yeah, I don't think ghost touch armor or weapon would allow you to grapple a ghost, not enough of you and not the right parts of you are capable of actually holding on to the ghost. You have to become incorporeal (not sure if its possible) to be able to grapple them.

I would consider letting a Barbarian with Ghost Rager be able to grapple a ghost because I view this supernatural rage power of the barbarian as emitting a field around the entire body of the barbarian and his possessions that allow him to interact with ghost (as supported by the barbarian being able to deal full damage with non-magical weapons and getting a bonus to touch AC, which is what ghosts target with their attacks). I would also considering allowing someone with an amulet of mighty fists with ghost touch property do the same because the whole body can be used to perform an unarmed strike. However both of these are more special allowances I would make as a GM.

For hard RAW, I don't think there is any way to grapple a ghost.


There is one way, Claxon. It's called the Tetori Monk.

Dark Archive

Actually, to the contrary; incorporeal simply means cannot be grappled. Ghost touched nets have holes, so ghost creatures just pass through those (they can reform around); therefore they have no effect whatsoever.

Tetori is the ONE workaround the system currently has to this; and that doesn't come until you are generally not fighting incoporeals (incoporeals are usually fought in the mid-level range).


Mergy wrote:
Sorry for the necro, but how are people getting ghost touch on a net? As a ranged weapon, I was under the impression that ghost touch wasn't a legal enhancement.

Even though the Ghost Touch property appears only on the melee weapon table and not the ranged weapon table, the entry for Ghost Touch does not include any language limiting it to melee weapons. There is no "This special ability can only be placed on ..." language, so it shouldn't be limited. Compare to Distance (can only be placed on ranged weapons) and Brilliant (can only be applied to melee weapons, thrown weapons, and ammunition).

If I had to guess, it probably should act like Brilliant, and apply to melee weapons, thrown weapons, and ammunition. But, the language limiting it isn't there.

Besides, a Net is a weird weapon, anyway. And it should count as a thrown weapon, so if Ghost Touch were limited like Brilliant, you could still apply it.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

fretgod99, read again:

ghost touch weapon wrote:


A ghost touch weapon deals damage normally against incorporeal creatures, regardless of its bonus. An incorporeal creature's 50% reduction in damage from corporeal sources does not apply to attacks made against it with ghost touch weapons. The weapon can be picked up and moved by an incorporeal creature at any time. A manifesting ghost can wield the weapon against corporeal foes. Essentially, a ghost touch weapon counts as both corporeal or incorporeal. This special ability can only be placed on melee weapons and ammunition.

I've run lately that ghost touch weapons can Crit incorporeal. b/c a ghost touch weapon deals damage normally against incorporeal creatures. though i'm not 100% on that.


Seraphimpunk wrote:

fretgod99, read again:

ghost touch weapon wrote:


A ghost touch weapon deals damage normally against incorporeal creatures, regardless of its bonus. An incorporeal creature's 50% reduction in damage from corporeal sources does not apply to attacks made against it with ghost touch weapons. The weapon can be picked up and moved by an incorporeal creature at any time. A manifesting ghost can wield the weapon against corporeal foes. Essentially, a ghost touch weapon counts as both corporeal or incorporeal. This special ability can only be placed on melee weapons and ammunition.
I've run lately that ghost touch weapons can Crit incorporeal. b/c a ghost touch weapon deals damage normally against incorporeal creatures. though i'm not 100% on that.

Interesting. That language isn't in the CRB, which is the entry I was looking at.

Quote:
Ghost Touch: A ghost touch weapon deals damage normally against incorporeal creatures, regardless of its bonus. An incorporeal creature's 50% reduction in damage from corporeal sources does not apply to attacks made against it with ghost touch weapons. The weapon can be picked up and moved by an incorporeal creature at any time. A manifesting ghost can wield the weapon against corporeal foes. Essentially, a ghost touch weapon counts as both corporeal or incorporeal.

Knew I should have checked UE. *shrug*

Dark Archive

You can apply "Ghost Touch" to a net just fine; it just doesn't make it so the incoporeal will be grabbed. It means an incoporeal can throw it at a person if they want (would make for a funny enemy). They simply have no constraints to movement.


I am unsure about the relationship of incorporeal and ethereal, but if you want to be able to grapple anything, finding a way to get the blink spell is helpful, too, as it allows you to "Treat other ethereal creatures and objects as material." Which should mean that you can grapple ethereal creatures.

BTW, tripping a ghost with ghost-touch weapons is out, as they probably count as flying.


Seraphimpunk wrote:

fretgod99, read again:

ghost touch weapon wrote:


A ghost touch weapon deals damage normally against incorporeal creatures, regardless of its bonus. An incorporeal creature's 50% reduction in damage from corporeal sources does not apply to attacks made against it with ghost touch weapons. The weapon can be picked up and moved by an incorporeal creature at any time. A manifesting ghost can wield the weapon against corporeal foes. Essentially, a ghost touch weapon counts as both corporeal or incorporeal. This special ability can only be placed on melee weapons and ammunition.
I've run lately that ghost touch weapons can Crit incorporeal. b/c a ghost touch weapon deals damage normally against incorporeal creatures. though i'm not 100% on that.

Where is that from? The PRD, which I though was the most up to date/relevant rules source there is (together with FAQ/published errata), says:

PRD wrote:

Ghost Touch: A ghost touch weapon deals damage normally against incorporeal creatures, regardless of its bonus. An incorporeal creature's 50% reduction in damage from corporeal sources does not apply to attacks made against it with ghost touch weapons. The weapon can be picked up and moved by an incorporeal creature at any time. A manifesting ghost can wield the weapon against corporeal foes. Essentially, a ghost touch weapon counts as both corporeal or incorporeal.

Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, plane shift; Price +1 bonus.


Ilja wrote:


Where is that from?

It is from the PRD - under Ultimate Equipment, rather than under the Core Rulebook.


thenobledrake wrote:
Ilja wrote:


Where is that from?
It is from the PRD - under Ultimate Equipment, rather than under the Core Rulebook.

That's... Weird. I suppose UE ranks higher since it's newer, but it seems weird to invalidate such a popular practice in such a sneaky way, just changing it in a splatbook without any warning?

Hmmf.


Ilja wrote:
thenobledrake wrote:
Ilja wrote:


Where is that from?
It is from the PRD - under Ultimate Equipment, rather than under the Core Rulebook.

That's... Weird. I suppose UE ranks higher since it's newer, but it seems weird to invalidate such a popular practice in such a sneaky way, just changing it in a splatbook without any warning?

Hmmf.

It should be kept in mind that Paizo doesn't have the time to update the Core Rulebook printing and issue a new errata document every time one line of rules gets changed - especially when they can stick that (pretty insignificant to game balance) single line or rules change into a book they are selling as THE book on the subject.


thenobledrake wrote:
It should be kept in mind that Paizo doesn't have the time to update the Core Rulebook printing and issue a new errata document every time one line of rules gets changed - especially when they can stick that (pretty insignificant to game balance) single line or rules change into a book they are selling as THE book on the subject.

Yeah, sure, and if this was some very marginal application, such as "flaming weapons are immune to the chill metal spell" I'd understand that - but this is a pretty big change for a pretty well-established tactic, that's also similar to well-established tropes in other mediums (see Ghostbusters), and also not a clarification of some unclear rule (like the aasimar proficiency issue).

I mean, nets are the single most common targets for Ghost Touch in our games (though "melee weapons" as a group is more common), it's been suggested many times on the forum, is included in Ashiel's guide to useful gear etc.

This feels more like a splatbook reprinting the Empower Spell feat and saying "this feat cannot be applied to a spell modified by a metamagic rod". It's a very specific exception that changed a common strategy, and for no apparent reason - it's not like ghost touch nets are broken. Had there been a debate about the net before, with FAQ requests or something, I'd have understood it - now it just feels like a very very weird nerf to an already fringe weapon, coming out of nowhere basically without even a comment on it from the devs.

And I mean, this pretty much only affects throwing weapons. Melee weapons can have it, and projectile weapons wouldn't be interested in it anyway since it's very circumstantial and much easier to get on ammo. And throwing weapons don't need a nerf.


Nets may be the single most common target for Ghost Touch in your games - but in all the games I have ever experienced, Ghost Touch is an "oh yeah, I completely forgot that enchantment even existed" effect for all weapons because its uses are extremely few and far between - it only having an effect against a particularly small subset of potential opponents.

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