I was wondering if there were any guidelines on what CR an awakened animal companion would have?
I guess Awaken will add at least 1 to CR due to extra HD and mental stats.
However animal companions themselves get extra HD, BAB, feats etc. So how does this effect CR?
yes you would add one 1cr per hd add most of the time such as when something takes class levels
NOTE***an awakened animal can no longer serve as an animal companion
There is an article in Kobold Quarterly about Awakened Animals as cohorts. I believe it sets their cohort level as new HD+2, which seems too low imho.
But there you go.
Would it be too low though?
A level 5 druid could have a companion with HD 5.
Awakened makes it 7
This would suggest a CR of 7-9
The Druid would by effectively 5 (or maybe 6 if you consider PC wealth)
That doesn't sound right to me.
It would essentially mean that a druid could not use leadership for a recently awakened companion if it was full druid. That seems odd to me
You state the truth Lanather.
However, once the animal awakens then it would lose all of those extra HD it gained by virtue of being an animal companion and go back to being a normal animal with regular, lower amount of HD.
Also, say you awaken your animal companion who has 5 HD already, now up to 7, giving it an effective cohort level of 9, meaning you have to be level 11 to have an awakaned animal with 7 HD as your cohort.
Personally I think that the +2 increase to effective cohort level for awakened animals is too high because animals generally don't have any SLAs or supernatural abilities. They are all bite/claw whatever all the time. Imho a cohort with class levels would usually be better.
The best idea I think is to look at this table:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/monster-creation
Compare the stats of the companion to the stats listed, and use that as a basis for determining CR. Especially the attacks, damage, AC and HP should be considered as animal companions are pretty much "brutes".
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There is an article in Kobold Quarterly about Awakened Animals as cohorts. I believe it sets their cohort level as new HD+2, which seems too low imho.
But there you go.
I was actually going to mention that very article! It was Kobold Quarterly #18 if memory serves. The article was extremely well written and an absolutely excellent approach to the topic (in my completely unbiassed opinion, that is;)
Oh, and the HD+2 is perfectly balanced and well reasoned - I'm sure the author knew what he was doing;)
I don't think that Awakened Animal Companions automatically lose the extra hit dice. That said, they often have fewer hit dice than the Druid has levels, at least at levels where Awakened Animal is readily available. So really, a 9th level Druid only needs to level up once and he or she can have an Awakened former Companion become a Cohort.
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Per the rules, an awakened animal cannot also serve as an animal companion. If an animal companion becomes awakened, it immediately ceases to be an animal companion, which means it reverts to a normal version of that animal. This means it loses any extra hit dice, ability increases or other abilities it gained as an animal companion.
A GM can certainly allow the animal to keep some of its animal companion bonus (such as the extra hit dice) of course, but per the rules, the animal does not keep anything it gained from having been an animal companion.
You then add the 3d6 Intelligence, +1d3 Charisma, and +2 HD to the now-normal animal. At that point, the animal becomes a magical beast (augmented animal) and can begin gaining class levels as a monster cohort per the Bestiary rules or the Beast Leadership feat detailed in Kobold Quarterly
So what you're saying is that a 5th level spell strips away all the non-magical augmentations to the Animal Companion and just gives it intelligence. That is not in the spell description.
Do note: Animal Companions are not Magical Animals. They do not lose the extra hit dice or attack bonuses or the like because of Anti-Magic Shell or Dispel Magic. So Awaken should not remove the extra abilities of the former Animal Companion.
So what you're saying is that a 5th level spell strips away all the non-magical augmentations to the Animal Companion and just gives it intelligence. That is not in the spell description.
Do note: Animal Companions are not Magical Animals. They do not lose the extra hit dice or attack bonuses or the like because of Anti-Magic Shell or Dispel Magic. So Awaken should not remove the extra abilities of the former Animal Companion.
That is so cool! My druid is going to take leadership, and create an army of awakened ex-animal companions that all retain the advantages of being an AC!
Yay!
Per the rules, an awakened animal cannot also serve as an animal companion. If an animal companion becomes awakened, it immediately ceases to be an animal companion
This is clearly true.
which means it reverts to a normal version of that animal. This means it loses any extra hit dice, ability increases or other abilities it gained as an animal companion.
This isn't unreasonable but not written in the rules AFAIK. The rules repeatedly refer to it as the animal "gaining" powers or "advancing", without conditioning it to only work while being a companion. The rules are completely silent on whether it is a permanent increase or just temporary. It is completely a DM call, neither way being more RAW than the other.
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So what you're saying is that a 5th level spell strips away all the non-magical augmentations to the Animal Companion and just gives it intelligence. That is not in the spell description.
Do note: Animal Companions are not Magical Animals. They do not lose the extra hit dice or attack bonuses or the like because of Anti-Magic Shell or Dispel Magic. So Awaken should not remove the extra abilities of the former Animal Companion.
Awaken is not taking the animal companion's powers. It is that fact that the animal, once awakened, ceases to be an animal companion. That is part of the animal companion rules, not the awaken spell.
It is the same as when an animal companion or familiar is dismissed. Once dismissed, they cease to receive the benefits of being an animal companion or familiar. Remember, those benefits are class features of the class gaining the companion. It is through the bond with the PC who has the companion-granting class that the animal gets these abilities. Once that bond is broken, the animal loses the extra powers the bond granted.
This has been confirmed on many occasions by various developers etc. Again, though, it is certainly fine for individual GMs to rule that the ex-animal companion keeps those abilities any way.
If the extra hit dice and such of an animal companion vanish when the animal is no longer an animal companion, then the animal companion is magical and thus affected by Anti-Magic Shell and Dispel Magic. Are animal companions affected by these spells (and by Circle Protection from Alignment)?
If the extra hit dice and such of an animal companion vanish when the animal is no longer an animal companion, then the animal companion is magical and thus affected by Anti-Magic Shell and Dispel Magic. Are animal companions affected by these spells (and by Circle Protection from Alignment)?
You can argue about it all you want, but developers have confirmed that ex-animal companions lose the bonuses they received from being animal companion.
Just think of it as all the bonuses are extraordinary abilities granted by the bond, and when they lose the bond the lose the abilities. Note that extraordinary abilities are not suppressed by an antimagic field.
If I can find the developers comments where they state this I will link to it, but I can't remember what thread it was in off hand.
Awaken is not taking the animal companion's powers. It is that fact that the animal, once awakened, ceases to be an animal companion. That is part of the animal companion rules, not the awaken spell.
Can you quote the relevant part? Because I don't see anything about it actually.
Can you quote the relevant part? Because I don't see anything about it actually.
Awaken is not taking the animal companion's powers. It is that fact that the animal, once awakened, ceases to be an animal companion. That is part of the animal companion rules, not the awaken spell.
What do you wish see quoted?
It states in the rules that awakened animals can no longer serve as animal companions, so they lack a druid to provide them with bonuses to their statistics. The Bonuses' a animal companion get are not inherent to the companion itself. There is little to quote there as you cannot quote an absence.
From the Awaken spell:
An awakened animal gets 3d6 Intelligence, +1d3 Charisma, and +2 HD. Its type becomes magical beast (augmented animal). An awakened animal can't serve as an animal companion, familiar, or special mount.
If you want a part that states the AC abilities aren't lost, there is none. Which means nothing happens. (much the same way there isn't a statement anywhere that when you multiclass you don't lose your existing class's abilities)
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Again, it's not awaken that causes the animimal to lose anything, at least not directly. It is the fact that the animal must cease to be an animal companion. Remove awaken from the equation for a second. If an animal companion is dismissed by the druid in order to gain a different animal companion, the dismissed ex-animal companion immediately ceases to be an animal companion and loses all benefits it had received when it had been an animal companion. The same thing happens if an animal companion is awakened, not because the spell causes the loss directly, but because being awakened causes the animal to cease being an animal companion which means it loses all benefits it had received when it had been an animal companion
That's the problem i see with it as well, the companions aren't their natural equivalents. They're often smaller (sometimes larger), have no racial skill bonuses, and sometimes have different, ability scores, natural armor, and natural and special attacks. And most importantly they gain their hit dice differently. When an animal companion loses all their animal companion abilities, they cease to be anything.
That is so cool! My druid is going to take leadership, and create an army of awakened ex-animal companions that all retain the advantages of being an AC!
Yay!
Yes indeed, this is especially useful when you have a base of operations and need lower level followers to run it for you when you're away. If you can get/afford a wizard to cast Permanency for you, you can have a few of the lower level followers with Anthropomorphic Animal cast on them.
Remember, though, that having an Animal Companion lowers effective Leadership by 2 (boo hiss), so you don't get quite as much mileage from the feat as you otherwise might.
The Bonuses' a animal companion get are not inherent to the companion itself. There is little to quote there as you cannot quote an absence.
I do not see where this is stated in the rules. It says the animal advances as you do. Nowhere does it say it loses it's powers if it's released from companionship. It's not unreasonable to claim it does, but don't claim it's part of the rules when it is not.
EDIT: This situation and discussion was around already in 3.5, and in countless discussions during both installations of the game I've never seen any convincing evidence in either direction. It seems to be one of those things that are left vague for the DM to make up whatever fits in her campaign.
The Bonuses' a animal companion get are not inherent to the companion itself. There is little to quote there as you cannot quote an absence.I do not see where this is stated in the rules. It says the animal advances as you do. Nowhere does it say it loses it's powers if it's released from companionship. It's not unreasonable to claim it does, but don't claim it's part of the rules when it is not.
EDIT: This situation and discussion was around already in 3.5, and in countless discussions during both installations of the game I've never seen any convincing evidence in either direction. It seems to be one of those things that are left vague for the DM to make up whatever fits in her campaign.
Like i said, i cannot quote an absence. Providing evidence to the contrary of something you yourself have no evidence for apart from it seeming reasonable to you is ridiculous. I've told you why its not the case, If you believe you can quote the rules from anywhere to support your theory go ahead. However the rules only state that the increases are for you animal companion, not that these are inherent increases in the creatures own stats.
BOOM! Headshot!
Finally found the thread.
A dismissed animal companion loses its mystical link to the druid, which is what was giving them the power to be unusual. They immediatley go back to being a normal animal if the druid dismisses them.
The way you can make an animal minion that retains its enhancements after it stops hanging out with you is via the awaken spell.
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So dismiss turns it into a regular animal, completely replacing everything that made the AC a creature in the rules.
But if you awaken it, it retains its AC abilities even though it is no longer an AC?
That kinda goes against what both sides argued for.
So dismiss turns it into a regular animal, completely replacing everything that made the AC a creature in the rules.
But if you awaken it, it retains its AC abilities even though it is no longer an AC?
That kinda goes against what both sides argued for.
No no, James statement is a little confusing I know, but the first part is the part you're most interested in. Which says if you have an animal companion and dismiss it (or otherwise can't have it as a companion, perhaps because you've awakened it) then it loses all benefits of being an animal companion, full stop.
His second statement, though a little poorly worded, is saying the only way an animal (note he uses minion not companion, so like an animal you purchase) retains any bonuses from anything is if you awaken it, which is permanent. Such an animal could be kept as a animal cohort using leadership, but would not qualify as an animal companion for bonds and would not recieve any benefits from such a bond if it had at one time had a bond.
Okay. This obviously states that Animal Companions are magical critters and thus will be immediately subject to any and every spell that affects magical critters. So when hit with Dispel Magic, the animal companion will no longer be an animal companion as it's a magical effect.
Of course, with this logic it's also possible to banish a Paladin's mount with a Dispel Magic and thus force the Paladin to suffer penalties until he levels up next so he can summon a new mount. ;)
Where are you getting this from? I've already explained, the bonds are extraordinary abilities as are the bonuses granted by the bond. They aren't subject to dispel or antimagic.
"Better an awakened raptor without extra HD than a raptor with bonus HD."
-Mills, awakened avian philosopher
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Philosoraptor?
Where are you getting this from? I've already explained, the bonds are extraordinary abilities as are the bonuses granted by the bond. They aren't subject to dispel or antimagic.
Dude, I deleted that message before you replied. I decided that my being tongue-in-cheek was not worth it. Heck, the message was up for under one minute.
BOOM! Headshot!
Finally found the thread.
A dismissed animal companion loses its mystical link to the druid, which is what was giving them the power to be unusual. They immediatley go back to being a normal animal if the druid dismisses them.
The way you can make an animal minion that retains its enhancements after it stops hanging out with you is via the awaken spell.
Huh, interesting. Weird place to put such a specific ruling though. Thanks!
But so if you awaken an animal companion, then it does keep the companion bonuses, but stops being a companion.
These things really seem like something that should've been written into the class.
Huh, interesting. Weird place to put such a specific ruling though. Thanks!
But so if you awaken an animal companion, then it does keep the companion bonuses, but stops being a companion.
These things really seem like something that should've been written into the class.
As I mentioned to threeshades, thats not what James was saying in regards to an animal keeping abilities from being an animal companion. It simply doesn't, in any way keep an of those abilities.
He was saying the only way for an animal to be permanently changed and always keep bonuses is for it to have awaken cast upon it. Note in his statement he says animal minion and not animal companion. By minion he means an animal you control like a trained hunting falcon or horse for riding, but isn't an animal companion.
The problem is, Claxon, you are saying these abilities vanish when the animal Awakens. This means the abilities are magical. However, the abilities do not go away when a animal goes into anti-magical shell. Thus the abilities are NOT magical (and mind you, divine magic is still magic and still affected by Anti-Magic shell).
We're talking about alterations to an animal's size, health, strength, and so on. Are you saying that the second that I cast "Awaken" on a Dog Animal Companion it suddenly polymorphs into a small-size animal and loses all of the health bonuses and other bonuses? Because that is a magical effect. But nothing about the Druid Animal Companion STATES it is a magical effect that can be affected by Protection spells, Anti-Magic shell, or the like.
Ultimately? It depends on the GM. It seems likely the majority of GMs here don't agree with you, Claxon. In their games they can rule the way they want. There is no official FAQ in a PDF stating otherwise.
He was saying the only way for an animal to be permanently changed and always keep bonuses is for it to have awaken cast upon it.
I doubt that was his point as there is a multitude of other ways for animals to be permanently changed.
Since it was said in the context of dismissing animal companions it seems he was most likely referring to the abilities normally lost when dismissed. Otherwise he would've said "The way you can make an animal minion that retains its enhancements after it stops hanging out with you is via the awaken spell, or permanency, or it gaining levels, or it gaining inherent ability score bonuses from wish, or a plethora of other options."
Since he said that awaken specifically was the only way to make an animal that "retains its enhancements", it seems reasonable that the enhancements in question are the enhancements from being an animal companion.
The problem is, Claxon, you are saying these abilities vanish when the animal Awakens. This means the abilities are magical.
Not necessarily. While I disagree with Claxons post, mundane abilities can also go away during many different circumstances. Usually though it's noted more specifically; if an ability can be lost it generally says so in some way in the rules.
The problem is, Claxon, you are saying these abilities vanish when the animal Awakens. This means the abilities are magical.Not necessarily. While I disagree with Claxons post, mundane abilities can also go away during many different circumstances. Usually though it's noted more specifically; if an ability can be lost it generally says so in some way in the rules.
Given that Animal Companions are linked to Divine casters, I would assume that the power to progress with their master is a deity-given one, rather like the Paladin. The Paladin can lose his powers, but they can't be dismissed with a Dispel Magic as they are not really magical in that respect.
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The problem is, Claxon, you are saying these abilities vanish when the animal Awakens. This means the abilities are magical. However, the abilities do not go away when a animal goes into anti-magical shell. Thus the abilities are NOT magical (and mind you, divine magic is still magic and still affected by Anti-Magic shell).
We're talking about alterations to an animal's size, health, strength, and so on. Are you saying that the second that I cast "Awaken" on a Dog Animal Companion it suddenly polymorphs into a small-size animal and loses all of the health bonuses and other bonuses? Because that is a magical effect. But nothing about the Druid Animal Companion STATES it is a magical effect that can be affected by Protection spells, Anti-Magic shell, or the like.
Ultimately? It depends on the GM. It seems likely the majority of GMs here don't agree with you, Claxon. In their games they can rule the way they want. There is no official FAQ in a PDF stating otherwise.
You can always rule 0 anything anyway you like. However, the creative devloper has said that the normal circumstances of things is that former animal companions always lose any bonuses from the bond once they are no longer animal companions. There was another thread some place where the time frame over which it was lost was questioned and I believe the answer was "whatever it suitable for the GM". The idea being that it doesn't happen instantly, but assuming the creature is dismissed and goes into the wild it slowly reverts into a normal specimen for that creature. That means in a short term you could concieveable awaken an animal companion and it coudld have both benefits for a while but not permanently (as an awakened animal cannot be bonded). This is purposefully, as to not give more power to the companion than is intended, as otherwise you end up with a companion who is much stronger being awakened than not (and if that was intentionally to be allowed they would have included such bonses in the progression for the animal companions). This decision was also made so that preternaturally strong specimens of creatures don't exist in perpetuity in the wild. Else you would eventually have all creatures in the wilderness become ex-animal companions with all the bonuses which kill lesser creatures that may have normally preyed on it.
Just because GMs or people don't agree with me doesn't mean I'm any less right. I believe James Jacobs intentions and position are clear, and all I'm trying to do is convey that information to you. Feel free to rule how you want, but allowing awaken to stack with bonded animal companions is clearly an increase in power that wasn't intended to be allowed.
Now THAT is a more logical argument and I've been waiting for you to make it.
Here's the question. You cast Awaken on an Animal Companion. As the animal slowly loses its hit dice and the like, does it gain class levels to compensate? After all, in essence you're talking about a class-dictated Cohort who in essence has gained Cohort XPs (which explains why the hit dice and like decline over time compared to the Druid's hit dice).
Would those hit dice thus be replaced by class levels, in your opinion?
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Step 1: Become Druid
Step 2: Gain Animal Companion
Step 3: Level up, so that the bonuses granted to animal companions become significant.
Step 4: Dismiss Companion. Companion becomes permanent uber-Animal.
Step 5: Adopt new animal companion.
Step 6: Repeat steps 4 and 5 ad infinitum. The countryside is now filled with uber-critters.
Do people actually believe that is the intent?
Step 1: Become Druid
Step 2: Gain Animal Companion
Step 3: Level up, so that the bonuses granted to animal companions become significant.
Step 4: Dismiss Companion. Companion becomes permanent uber-Animal.
Step 5: Adopt new animal companion.
Step 6: Repeat steps 4 and 5 ad infinitum. The countryside is now filled with uber-critters.Do people actually believe that is the intent?
No, and thats exactly why James Jacobs ruled that dismissed companions lose their bonuses. He just didn't elaborate on the why or the mechanics of how they lose it.
Now THAT is a more logical argument and I've been waiting for you to make it.
Here's the question. You cast Awaken on an Animal Companion. As the animal slowly loses its hit dice and the like, does it gain class levels to compensate? After all, in essence you're talking about a class-dictated Cohort who in essence has gained Cohort XPs (which explains why the hit dice and like decline over time compared to the Druid's hit dice).
Would those hit dice thus be replaced by class levels, in your opinion?
Logic and rules often don't go together unfortunately. I understand you agitation, but I was merely relaying information as the rules and comments from developers had been stated.
As for you question, an awakened animal can gain class levels and is friendly but is not your slave. It is it's own being with desires and thoughts, it just happens to have a friendly disposition towards you because you granted it the intelligence it had lacked.
Now, assuming you don't have the leadership feat to treat the awakened animal as a cohort as a GM I would have the creature help you on a limited basis (something any friendly normal humanoid might help you with) and I would say that it gains levels at the rate at which any normal creatures does starting with no class levels and the normal number of racial HD +2(from Awaken) for the creature and maybe automatically lose one level of benefits from being an animal companion at the time of the casting of awaken. Then I would have them lose 1 level of benefits of being an animal companion per week as it slowly regresses into a former animal of it's type. It is unlikely to participate in combat with you as it is only friendly, but would be willing to guide you somewhere or give you something of low value (much like any friendly human would).
Now, if the player had leadership to make the former animal companion awakened creature a animal cohort then I would look at what CR the creature has versus the total CR allowed by the leadership score for the character. I can't find the rules specific for animal cohorts with leadership, so I'm having to be a little vague. I would then say that the cohort begins trading in animal companion levels for class levels on a 1 for 1 basis per week until it reaches the approrpiate CR for the characters leadership score and has lost all bonus for being an animal companion.
To be honest their are no guidelines or rules on it, and this is just merely my suggesiton on how to handle it. Which is why I didn't post it earlier.
There is an article in Kobold Quarterly about Awakened Animals as cohorts. I believe it sets their cohort level as new HD+2, which seems too low imho.
But there you go.
Not really. Compare an awakened boar (CR 4 by KQ's calculation) to a worg (CR 2). The worg is just as intelligent on average, has better Dex, and way better skills, and probably won't be wild empathied until you're strong enough to choke it to death anyway. The boar has higher Str, Con, and ferocity. (We assume that the awakened boat gets +1 to an ability score and an extra feat for those hit dice, which isn't 100% clear.) It works out to a CR 2 in my book, not really any higher than the base boar CR, but maybe I could see it as a CR 3. As a monstrous cohort, I'd certainly put it on par with the worg at effective cohort level 5--ferocity is much more important when judging the power level of an adversary than an allied NPC, especially a cohort who really better not bleed itself to death.
Step 1: Become Druid
Step 2: Gain Animal Companion
Step 3: Level up, so that the bonuses granted to animal companions become significant.
Step 4: Dismiss Companion. Companion becomes permanent uber-Animal.
Step 5: Adopt new animal companion.
Step 6: Repeat steps 4 and 5 ad infinitum. The countryside is now filled with uber-critters.Do people actually believe that is the intent?
Well in order to fill the countryside with uber critters this way, youd have to spend months, if not years just adopting and dismissing ACs.
And no, I would have imagined that the new ACs already have that level of power when they join the druid. They simply are different, more powerful versions. It makes as much or as little sense, as the animal coming into the druid's care and suddenly popping up in power, while shrinking a size or two (or the other way around when beng dismissed).
"Don't go in the woods, Little Red Riding Hood!"
"It's full of man-sized 15HD squirrels!"
Don't make fun, people who played Magic the Gathering against me will tell you horror stories of giant squirrel swarms.
I have a question that may or may not have been answered in this thread.
This is an issue that recently became a problem in one of the campaigns that I have participated in.
The Scenario: I was playing a druid that prestiged and as a result stopped gaining druid levels. A lack in druid growth stops animal companion growth(my understanding of druid/AC relations).
On the eve of Prestige I cast awaken on my AC and next level up I start on my new class with proper RP and Leadership to make sure I can keep my A-AC(awakened animal companion)and my A-AC takes its following levels in slayer. *Made sense class wise.
Two levels later we hit an encounter with a scaled down CR 20 monster, {GM does what he like and not what functions} and my former AC is hit with a will save to turn him against me.
The GM says that because he is awakened the Devotion ability no longer applies and therefore he is more succeptable to mind control enchantments.
The Dilemma: My understanding is that since the AC stats progress at 3/4 or 1/2 {*can't remember the specific rate} a PC rate the awaken spell changes the relationship between a PC and their companion into a more versatile form of character essentially a NPC can't be an AC and an AC can't have NPC abilities such as per level skill points and an actual feat progression.
While the balancing act of giving a PC a "glorified meat shield" is played out by restricting the progression of said meat shield. Awaken is designed to have the AC become a more effective party member.
By: 1. removing the easy to use handle animal relationship between PC and AC by complicating the relationship via forcing a character to make the AC a cohort and requiring acts of diplomacy and leadership to keep the now an NPC character in the party. The GM said that because he is awakened he is no longer supposed to be allowed to keep his previous 11 levels of experience and the benifits that come with it.
The Issue at Hand: From what I am gathering from this thread, the AC is supposed to lose all of its progress and start over from scratch after awakened effectively rendering the animal companion useless.
Why this doesn't Make Sense to me: Why have the AC improve at a lower rate if there wasn't a way to make him more powerful? Why would a spell undo anything if not everything that the animal companion is and has become if its designed to only elevate the creature to sentience balancing by requiring you to have to role play, invest feats, and designate a class if the creature is somehow convinced to stay.
The concept to me is your going from a combat trained Hachi to a variant of Princess Mononke's wolfs and other sentient animal.
Am I wrong in this concept of understanding the spell and if so is my tiger now a level 2 slayer and nothing else amidst level 13 characters as opposed to a level 11 tiger and a level 2 slayer.