Speculation concerning Dread Cthulhu's statblock


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So Dread Cthulhu appears to be on the cover of Bestiary 4. I though I'd try stating up the priest of the Great Old Ones

Dread Cthulhu

CR: Whatever you can handle +infinite

XP: You're kidding, right?

BO Gargantuan Great Old One

Init + Tuesday Senses: None Perception +22,000^4

Aura: Madness (infinite)

Defense

AC: Fish, Touch -120, Flatfooted ? (+1 Squamus, +231 Stellar Alignment)

DR pi x (i^3 - 34x)/Tramp Steamer

HP: Lovecraft

Fort + make something up, Ref + Oh god they're under my skin Will + None

Offense

Speed: Arbitrary

Melee: Every round Dread Cthulhu consumes 1d6 adventurers, devils, minor gods, major gods, or anything else that strikes it's fancy. No save.

Space: Time Reach: The minds of men

Spell Like Abilities : All

Statistics

Str: Unknowable Dex: Ineffable Con: Unkillable Int: Madness Wis: Devourer, Cha: The stars have come right

Base Attack - None, Cthulhu devours 1d6 adventurers regardless of any other considerations up to and including DM intervention. In the case of DM intevention Cthulhu may devour the DM at its option.

CMB - See previous

CMD - HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA (Can't be tripped)

Feats: Inspire Madness, Perfect Telepathy, Astral Plunge, Cannot Die, Astronomy, Favored Enemy (Tramp Steamer)

Skills - Knowledge(Religion) +1022 Knowledge(Astronomy) +3302 Knowledge (Psychology) -25^2

Languages Madness, madness, madness, madness, MADNESS, MADNESS MADNESS MADNESS

Ecology

Environment Ry'leh or Anywhere

Organization: Church

Treasure: Unlikely

Special Abilities

Inspire Madness(su) Anything within line of sight of Dread Cthulhu becomes utterly, irrevocably, incurably mad. No magic or divine intervention can reverse this madness. Subject is permanently afflicted as if by the Confusion spell. All entities with an intelligence greater than 0, including major and minor gods and other supernatural beings, are subject to this ability and receive no saving throw.

That Is Not Dead (su) If Cthulhu is ever reduced to 0 hp he returns to his sunken house at Ry'leh until the stars are right.

The Exchange

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You had me at "HP: Lovecraft"


If there isn't a "eats 1d6 investigators/adventurers per round" line in his Bestiary 4 statblock, I will be very grumpy.


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Ha! Awesome. Not what I expected but still enjoyable. Highlights included: HP: Lovecraft, DR/Tramp Steamer, and CMD - HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA (Can't be tripped).

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Meh, Cthulu ain't so tough. He got conked on the head by a boat and got KO'd.


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DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
Meh, Cthulu ain't so tough. He got conked on the head by a boat and got KO'd.

Also, the adventurers with mythic ranks and 20 levels that you find in Pathfinder are not investigators.

If a boat could KO Cthulhu, just imagine what four people who are almost on the level of demigods would do to him.


A boat went through Cthulhu. It immediately reformed behind the boat. The exact reason it returned to Ry'leh is speculation on the part of the author.

I could start ranting about how making Cthulhu into something that can be defeated, or even resisted, utterly defeats the purpose of Cthulhu and the entire Cosmic Horror genre. But I'm not going to. Because I tend to start frothing at the mouth.

Suffice to say - Cthulhu is the end of everything comprehensible to the human mind. If it's statted up as anything else then it becomes just another monster - Some super-tarrasque that will get swatted down by powergamers in a few rounds.

The point of Cosmic Horror is that no matter how big or mean or whatever you are you're still Human and operating on a Human level. Cthulhu is not on a Human level. Nyarlathotep is not on a Human level. Yog Sothoth is not on a Human level. They're utterly beyond human comprehension and understanding and always will be. That's why the stories are so g!#$~*n creepy - Cthulhu isn't evil - it's indifferent. We're just not important enough to intrude on whatever Blue and Orange morality it operates on. It doesn't think about us any more than we think about the bacteria that live in our gut.

Hell, the scariest parts of LOTR are Cosmic Horror - Shelob is giant creepy spider-demon the size of T-Rex. The Balrog is a horrible demon, the inspiration for the Pit Fiend and Baalor.

Ungoliant is Shelob's mommy. Ungoliant drank the light of creation and nearly ate Morgoth the god of all Evil and even the gods were never really sure what Ungoliant was or where she came from.

When Gandalf pursued the Balrog into the depths of Moria they landed in terrible, lightless Tunnels. The Balrog fled for fear of whatever made those tunnels. The only things in Middle Earth greater than the Balrogs are, in order - The Dragons, Sauron, Ungoliant, and Melkor the Dark Enemy of the World. And nothing on that list was responsible for those tunnels.

That's Cosmic Horror. The idea that some things cannot, will not be understood. And if those things ever deign to notice you your mind will be blown out like a candle.

UNRELATED: When Ungoliant trapped Morgoth in her webs for withholding the Silmarils he cried out in pain and fear. The Balrogs, all of them, flew in from Angband and pulled a Big Damn Heroes to rescue their master from the horrible spider thing.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Conan killed cosmic horrors all the time.

Cosmic Horror is for wimpy '20's investigators. In Mythic Pathfinder we kill eldritch horrors and wear their heads as hilarious hats.


You might want to stick to Call of Cthulhu then, Frank. Like Dudemeister here said, killing Eldritch Horrors is normal for D&D / Pathfinder adventurers once they reach a certain level. It's also been established as canon (by James Jacobs who does like Lovecraft) that the Great Old Ones are comparable to demigods while the Outer Gods are comparable to the stronger deities in Golarion, instead of being something beyond everything else in the cosmos.


DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

Conan killed cosmic horrors all the time.

Cosmic Horror is for wimpy '20's investigators. In Mythic Pathfinder we kill eldritch horrors and wear their heads as hilarious hats.

Which is a large part of what makes Mythic a Bad Idea. It's one thing to ascend to Godhood - D&D characters have been storming the gates of heaven for forty years. But if you can overcome anything then what's the point? You can't be a hero in that paradigm - The definition and primary requirement of a Hero is that they die. That holds true for all of them - Arthur, Cuchulain, Gilgamesh, Beowulf, Herakles, Orlando, Rostam, all the great heroes die. It's a large part of what makes them heroes - The struggle to overcome mortality and their inevitable failure, often followed by some kind of divine ascension.

And how do they die? Arthur dies for his ideals. Cuchulain dies because he's placed in an impossible situation that violates his Geas. Gilgamesh pretty much dies of old age. Beowulf dies facing off against the Dragon, Herakles is poisoned by the shirt of Nessus (How's that - The greatest hero in the entire Hellenic and post-Hellenic world done in by CON damage inflicted by a Centaur), Orlando is overwhelmed by Turks, Rostam fell into a g$$**+n pit trap.

And, frankly, D&D and Pathfinder have trivialized the concept of heroism to an astonishing degree. There's very little heroic about most PF and D&D characters - They're not really exceptional and few of them are even interesting. They just slaughter things for money until they encounter a bigger fish. And if you manage to destroy Cthulhu well then... I don't even know. I can't imagine that being satisfying. To anyone. It'd be the roughly equivalent to learning Santa isn't real. It'd be the final death of any wonder or sense of adventure that exists in this game and setting - If you can do that of all things then what's the point? Why not just sit down, say "I win", and end the campaign?

To sum this all up - Mythic is so stupidly, insanely OP that it trivializes the concept of heroism to meaninglessness. Your character is inevitably a ridiculous wish-fulfillment Mary Sue.


People who aren't heroes die too. Your point?

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Mythic Characters can die.

I think people fetishise Cthulhu and Lovecraft's works. Cthulhu becomes Superman/Goku or whatever. What's the point of putting Cthulhu into the game at all if his stats just read: "Rocks Fall Everybody Dies".

You know what's awesome about killing Cthulhu? You were the badass that killed Cthulhu! You are the triumph of hope over despair. You saw ineffable horror and you effed the horror right out of it.

Call of the Cthulhu can keep its quavering wimps.

I'm with Conan, give me a sword and let me kill it. I might die trying but to hell with anyone who holds me back.

The Exchange

Grapple focused Lore Warden holds the barbarian back.


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To hell with him then!

Shadow Lodge

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I agree. Cthulhu isn't the ultimate end-all and be-all.

That's Azathoth.

Shadow Lodge

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Big talk, from a bunch of guys that wouldn't let their characters anywhere near a random star spawn unless they had undergone about 20 rounds of pre-battle buffing and would likely run away as soon as any of those buffs ran out.

Call of Cthulhu is the home of heroes.

Pathfinder is the home of cowards and bullies.

:P


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Cowards and Bullies with cunning calamari hats.

Shadow Lodge

GREAT CTHULHU, Master of R’lyeh
STR 140 CON 110 SIZ 210 INT 42 POW 42
DEX 21 Move 24 Stride/20 Swim/16 Fly HP 160
Damage Bonus: +21D6.
Weapon: Claw 100%, damage 1D6 + 21D6
Tentacle 100%, damage 11D6
Armor: 21 points of transdimensional muck and muscle; additionally, he regenerates 6 hit points per round.
Spells: knows hundreds of spells but not Summon/Bind Nightgaunt and Contact Nodens; he might impart Contact Deep Ones or Contact Cthulhu via terrifying dreams.
Sanity Loss: 1D10/1D100 Sanity points to see Cthulhu.


What is that, his statblock from Call of Cthulhu?

Shadow Lodge

yup

although I still miss the version that said "devours 1d6 investigators per round"


DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
I'm with Conan, give me a sword and let me kill it. I might die trying but to hell with anyone who holds me back.

Actually, there were several times that Conan came up against something that simply could not be killed. The only options were run or die, and he ran.

For example, Iron Shadows in the Moon had him fleeing from the statues, and Pool of the Black One was another where he fled. Similarly, The Devil in Iron involved Conan almost completely succumbing to madness and terror, followed by him being faced with "run or die" against Khosatral Khel. He chose to run, and it was only a luckily-obtained magic blade (specifically designed for that purpose) that saved him from certain death at the eleventh hour when Khel caught up to him, bypassing Khel's invincibility.

Conan wasn't stupid.

Kthulhu wrote:
although I still miss the version that said "devours 1d6 investigators per round"

I liked Yig. If you don't try and dodge or parry it and/or he hits you... Instant Death.


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I'm that stupid!


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DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

You know what's awesome about killing Cthulhu? You were the badass that killed Cthulhu! You are the triumph of hope over despair. You saw ineffable horror and you effed the horror right out of it.

I'm with Conan, give me a sword and let me kill it. I might die trying but to hell with anyone who holds me back.

You're a overpowered Mary Sue with an overly permissive DM. Pretty much be definition. You might as well expect someone to be impressed when you tell them "My West End Star Wars Smuggle shot Darth Vader!" or "My Mutants and Masterminds character beat Superman to death!", "My caitiff diablerized Cain and stopped the Last Nights! go us!" It might lead to the occaisional cool story ala Old Man Henderson, but it shouldn't be standard and it sure as hell shouldn't be canon.

Let's try this - How would you feel about having Asmodeus statted up?
Conan killed a lot of monsters and minor demons. As another poster pointed out he also ran up against things that he couldn't kill, or that couldn't be killed, and he survived by being smart, lucky, or fast on his feat. I don't recall any R E Howard story where he encountered anything remotely like Cthulhu - It was all summoned critters conjured up by sorcerers and the occasional forgotten horror lurking in old temples.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Alleran wrote:
If there isn't a "eats 1d6 investigators/adventurers per round" line in his Bestiary 4 statblock, I will be very grumpy.

It's there... but not quite in the way you might expect.


There is a pretty substanstial difference between a game that people play and a novel. Cosmic horror is really hard to combine in an adventure game where the expectation is that heroes should have a reasonable chance of winning.

As for Pathfinder, all the full deities are statless and and fully capable of effortlessly taking out party of 20 level, 10 tier PC's. Azathoth shows up and it's "rocks fall everyone dies".

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Killing the devil and taking his throne is a great Mythic Quest.

Also: It's not about being a Mary Sue with an overly permissive GM. It's about it being a game, where players get a reasonable chance of winning.

If you don't want Cthulhu to be killable then don't give him stats. Ignore the bestiary entry and treat him as a deity without stats.

Cthulhu is just a monster and if you've entered the super powered realm of Level 20/Tier 10 should be a worthy capstone to a campaign that likely spanned years.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Also if someone runs a Star Wars Saga game killing Vader is a great way to end a game.

Here's the thing about sacred cows: they make great cheeseburgers.


James Jacobs wrote:
Alleran wrote:
If there isn't a "eats 1d6 investigators/adventurers per round" line in his Bestiary 4 statblock, I will be very grumpy.
It's there... but not quite in the way you might expect.

that terrifies me, and I cant be destroyed except by refusing to toast bread in an available toaster slot. Hint I can't be tricked into it.

Silver Crusade

Dang Cthulhu. He's a scrub. I mean we know he doesn't exactly wipe the world clean as the Yithians have their cockroach men in the far flung future with the flickering star to brain pilgrimage to.

Now the King in Yellow, there's a cosmic horror you can get behind.

I'm actually more interested in the stats on the other Lovecraftians then on the big sleepy C.

Although I wonder what we have left?

I mean we have stats for Shoggoths, Colors out of space (aura of lassitude), Fishmen, Hounds of Tindalos, Denizens of Leng, the Worm that Walks, the Great Race of Yith...

That leaves us with what? The Elder Things from the antarctic, the mi-go, nightgaunts, star vampires?


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FrankManic wrote:
DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

You know what's awesome about killing Cthulhu? You were the badass that killed Cthulhu! You are the triumph of hope over despair. You saw ineffable horror and you effed the horror right out of it.

I'm with Conan, give me a sword and let me kill it. I might die trying but to hell with anyone who holds me back.

You're a overpowered Mary Sue with an overly permissive DM. Pretty much be definition. You might as well expect someone to be impressed when you tell them "My West End Star Wars Smuggle shot Darth Vader!" or "My Mutants and Masterminds character beat Superman to death!", "My caitiff diablerized Cain and stopped the Last Nights! go us!" It might lead to the occaisional cool story ala Old Man Henderson, but it shouldn't be standard and it sure as hell shouldn't be canon.

Let's try this - How would you feel about having Asmodeus statted up?
Conan killed a lot of monsters and minor demons. As another poster pointed out he also ran up against things that he couldn't kill, or that couldn't be killed, and he survived by being smart, lucky, or fast on his feat. I don't recall any R E Howard story where he encountered anything remotely like Cthulhu - It was all summoned critters conjured up by sorcerers and the occasional forgotten horror lurking in old temples.

Or maybe it's okay for people to enjoy different styles of games? I know it's crazy, but some people actually like to play a game where they can beat Cthulhu! It doesn't make their character a Mary Sue at all (the character might be a Mary Sue or a Marty Stu anyway, but it would be for unrelated reasons).

Don't get me wrong, I like Lovecraftian horror. But when I play Pathfinder or D&D, I know that my characters are big damn heroes that are going to shrug off the most horrifying things and get on with doing the job, the job being kicking some eldritch butt. Because that's what the game is. If I want actual horror, I'll play Call of Cthulhu, World of Darkness, Dread, or another game that's actually designed to be a horror system.

Shadow Lodge

Tinkergoth wrote:
Or maybe it's okay for people to enjoy different styles of games? I know it's crazy, but some people actually like to play a game where they can beat Cthulhu! It doesn't make their character a Mary Sue at all (the character might be a Mary Sue or a Marty Stu anyway, but it would be for unrelated reasons).

Some people also like to play Planescape games where they can flip off the Lady of Pain and then laugh at her inability to do anything about it.


Kthulhu wrote:
Tinkergoth wrote:
Or maybe it's okay for people to enjoy different styles of games? I know it's crazy, but some people actually like to play a game where they can beat Cthulhu! It doesn't make their character a Mary Sue at all (the character might be a Mary Sue or a Marty Stu anyway, but it would be for unrelated reasons).
Some people also like to play Planescape games where they can flip off the Lady of Pain and then laugh at her inability to do anything about it.

And so long as everyone's having fun, I don't think that's a problem. It's a game, the whole point is for it to be enjoyable, so if the group is happy taking down the great old ones, I say let them.


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I think we have some 'Stop liking what I don't like' people here. saying 'Play a different game' won't work because they insist on yelling 'Stop having fun!'

If you really want to be annoyed, try mashing Warhammer 40k into CoC. Orks will just hurl themselves at the Big C because being 'Unbeatable' is just waving the red flag at them. Sure you can eat 1d6 Orks per round but you still have 1,00o others per round pouring in.

"WAAGGGHHHH!"


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Andrea1 wrote:

I think we have some 'Stop liking what I don't like' people here. saying 'Play a different game' won't work because they insist on yelling 'Stop having fun!'

If you really want to be annoyed, try mashing Warhammer 40k into CoC. Orks will just hurl themselves at the Big C because being 'Unbeatable' is just waving the red flag at them. Sure you can eat 1d6 Orks per round but you still have 1,00o others per round pouring in.

"WAAGGGHHHH!"

... Well, that's my next idea for a game sorted.

"Oi Boss! This big tentacle thing keep eatin' the boyz! What we do?!"

"LOTZ MORE DAKKA!"


James Jacobs wrote:
Alleran wrote:
If there isn't a "eats 1d6 investigators/adventurers per round" line in his Bestiary 4 statblock, I will be very grumpy.
It's there... but not quite in the way you might expect.

Awesome!


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FrankManic wrote:
You're a overpowered Mary Sue with an overly permissive DM.

Congratulations, you win the rudeness award for the thread. Here is your ribbon.

The Exchange

That's not a ribbon! Ribbons don't go "tick, tick, tick..."

Shadow Lodge

Sssshhhhhhhh!!

The Exchange

Ohhhhhhhh.


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So, let me get this straight. This thread isn't really a thread about speculation concerning Cthulhu's statblock but rather a thread where the OP wants to rant about how Mythos entities are being utilized in Pathfinder? Right?

Well, I can't say I didn't fall for the bait and switch, but I will say I'm a little disappointed with the "switch" part.

Now, FrankManic, I'm just going to skip over the parts where you claim Pathfinder trivializes heroism and Mythic is a "Bad Idea" and "stupidly, insanely OP" as that part of your posts is just way off base and getting into a discussion about it would be way off-topic. Instead, I'll just address some of your other stuff instead.

FrankManic wrote:
I could start ranting about how making Cthulhu into something that can be defeated, or even resisted, utterly defeats the purpose of Cthulhu and the entire Cosmic Horror genre. But I'm not going to. Because I tend to start frothing at the mouth.

Well, you're frothing at the mouth already so you may as well go on. Oh, you do. Good then.

FrankManic wrote:
The point of Cosmic Horror is that no matter how big or mean or whatever you are you're still Human and operating on a Human level. Cthulhu is not on a Human level. Nyarlathotep is not on a Human level. Yog Sothoth is not on a Human level. They're utterly beyond human comprehension and understanding and always will be.

Actually, the word that should be used here is Mortal, not Human. We Humans are just a single type of mortal. There are also other animals, and when you get into alien species or cross-genre (such as the case of Pathfinder mixed with Mythos) the scope of sentient mortality widens quite a bit: Elves, Dwarves, and whatnot. And you when you look at these beings existing beyond Mortals, you're correct. However, the lowliest of these Cosmic Horrors do not exist beyond the bounds of Immortals necessarily and that's where the justification lies for giving the Great Old Ones stats in Pathfinder. Because you can play Immortals, you can play Demigods. Cthulhu or Hastur can't be killed by just any random adventurer or even a mid-level hero with an Artifact. It still takes the power of a Demigod to put down any of the Great Old Ones and I think that's completely fair.

Next, you're equating Cthulhu with Yog-Sothoth and Nyarlathotep which you shouldn't. There is a demarcation (at times unclear in the original writings) between the Great Old Ones and the Outer Gods. And when it comes to the Outer Gods, Pathfinder's take on it agrees with you, they are beyond our reach. Not even Mythic powerhouses can hurt the Outer Gods, or any full-blown deities for that matter. Cthulhu is not an Outer God.

FrankManic wrote:
You're a overpowered Mary Sue with an overly permissive DM. . .

Yeah, I'm with Orthos on this one. Being a smug jerk isn't going to win you any debates and will only serve to hinder any legitimate points you're trying to make. Please don't do that. You're making the rest of us hardcore CoC fans look bad.

FrankManic wrote:
Let's try this - How would you feel about having Asmodeus statted up?

Same way I'd feel if they decided to stat up Azathoth or Shub-Niggurath; I'd be a little disappointed because I like the idea of the gods remaining intangible to lesser beings. I wouldn't freak out over it but I probably wouldn't include such an expansion in my home game.

However, Cthulhu is not Asmodeus. Asmodeus is well above Cthulhu's power level in Pathfinder. And, I do stress, in Pathfinder. The designers made a decision (that I and many other Mythos fans are fine with) on how to benchmark the Great Old Ones when they introduced the Mythos to Pathfinder, and "Demigod-level" is where they settled.

And, to head this argument off at the pass, when discussing Cthulhu in relation to Pathfinder, one has to discuss Cthulhu IN Pathfinder. Taking another version of Cthulhu and comparing that to another version of Asmodeus to say "Cthulhu, being a Cosmic entity, is clearly more powerful than a mere human divinity like Asmodeus" doesn't hold any water because there is no other context in which to compare the two power levels as they didn't originally exist in the same shared literary universe. So there's no standard base for comparison. I guess I could take a copy of Call of Cthulhu and bang it against a copy of the Book of Tobit and declare an arbitrary winner the same way I did when I was 6 and smashed my Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles against my Thundercats and declared an arbitrary winner but, somehow, I don't think that would end the debate.

So, as for Cthulhu, as he stands in Pathfinder, he's a Demigod and can be killed by equally powerful Immortals. Asmodeus and Yog-Sothoth and the like are deities and cannot be killed by such lesser beings.


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Thank you BlockKnight. I was going to post a similar reply but I don't think I could add anything to your statement.

Well, I could add this: James Jacobs is statting up Cthulhu, and, from what I've seen, one would be hard pressed to find a person who loves the Mythos more than he does. I have every faith he'll make Cthulhu as awesome as he deserves to be.

What a disappointing thread.


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Mythic Pathfinder runs on this trope:

Did you just punch out Cthulhu?


Actually, James Jacobs has stated that while a mortal cannot beat a god, they can beat a demigod. In the same vein, a demigod could beat a god. However, there is still a major disadvantage for the weaker party. Tar-Baphon, one of the most powerful liches in all of Golarion, casually killed the demigoddess Arazni. He could not have done the same to the deity Aroden unless he became a demigod. That in mind, if the Player Characters became gods (unlikely), they could challenge Nyarlathotep and threats of his scale. Would it be wise to do so? Probably not, but what you can do isn't always what you should do.


I can imagine it now.

An ascended player character decides to kill Azathoth.

The DM closes the book. The game is over. The universe has ceased to be, its foundation destroyed by the PC.


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You know, unless the DM decided that the player has absorbed Azathoth's essence.

"Well, your character is the center of the universe now. Hand over your character sheer, bro."

The other possible outcome is the player character becoming an existence similar to Galactus.

Shadow Lodge

I would be a sadistic bastard. I would make the player roleplay doing nothing but mindlessly listening to flutes and drums for a few aeons. Complete with a soundtrack. On loop. In real-time.

For more effective roleplay, I might suggest the player spring for a lobotomy.


Then my character just casts Silence. No more flutes or drums to worry about.

Shadow Lodge

Upon assuming the role of the Nuclear Chaos, all mental scores drop to -. No more mortal magic for you.


And then Kthulhu was kicked out from my friend's house, and we start to rule over the universe as Nuclear Galactus with a different DM.

The game ends when we get bored, and we probably start a new campaign. Whether Kthulhu is welcome to join after his previous stunt is unclear.

Shadow Lodge

Well, with me as the GM, it wouldn't progress that far anyway. Not giving the Mythos special consideration either...I'd never allow a PC even the remotest chance against a full deity. Even for a demigod level enemy, I'd have the PC need to make an alliance with other demigods in order to stand a chance (akin to the end of the Savage Tide AP, where

Spoiler:
the PCs really didn't stand a chance without having rallied a few other demon lords to go up against Demogorgon).

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