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I was taking a look at my Adventurer's Armory, and came across this Item.
Now with this, I was wondering if you can apply potions that would deal damage or effects to this, like a Potion of Inflict Light Wounds. If so, I am curious on how a creature's defense would apply, such as Spell Resistance.
Moreover, if applying offensive spells into potions would work, what other great spells would work in a bottle?
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Spell resistance and saves still come into play when it comes to potions, but there are a few potion tricks you could get away with. Potions of sleep or of blindness could put a creature in a bind. However, there is a class that could make someone miserable with an injection spear.
Alchemists.
A skinsend infusion has no save, so a hit with the spear knocks the person into a terrible situation.
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Magic missile, wouldn't that be fun to watch bolts of energy emanate from their fingers back into their face. Shocking graspalso would be fun.
Ghoul touch would paralyze them and make them stink. Vampiric touch would be interesting, as basically nothing would happen till an hour later. Sort of a delayed inflict potion.
My all-time favorite potion would have to be magic mouth; you could cause a mouth to appear on the back of their head a scream invectives at them for ten minutes.
Remember, when you drink a potion you are the caster. So when you get injected you get no spell resistance.
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I was qoing to say: "I also don't think magic missile or other spells would work quite the way you want. When you drink a potion wouldn't you get to decide where the effect goes?"
But then I read this:
Potions are like spells cast upon the imbiber. The character taking the potion doesn't get to make any decisions about the effect—the caster who brewed the potion has already done so. The drinker of a potion is both the effective target and the caster of the effect (though the potion indicates the caster level, the drinker still controls the effect).
Which makes me think it works exactly how you want it. Though that being the case, I'm not sure how common potions of spells that would harm the imbiber would be. It would really only be useful in conjunction with this weapon.
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Yes, Claxon, that the drinker is simply the caster of the spell contained in the potion is a common misconception. However, if it did work that way a character would touch someone and heal them after imbibing a cure potion. On the other hand, oils do work that way, the applyer is the effective caster and the applyee is the target, but the application of an oil to anything other than a helpless opponent requires some DM adjudication.
Oils are better than potions because any potion can be made as an oil, but the same is not true the other way around because some oils can only be applied to objects like swords or doors and objects typically can't drink a potion.
Akin to the syringe spear would be some sort of medieval spray can that applies oils to a non-helpless enemy.
In order to stay on topic, here is a list I compiled from the core rule book of potions that would work like cursed items:
Bestow Curse
Bleed
Blindness/Deafness
Cause Fear
Chill Metal
Chill Touch
Confusion
Confusion, Lesser
Contagion
Daze
Daze Monster
Doom
Ghoul Touch
Halt Undead
Heat Metal
Hideous Laughter
Hold Animal
Hold Person
Inflict Light Wounds
Inflict Moderate Wounds
Inflict Serious Wounds
Magic Circle against Chaos/Evil
Magic Circle against Chaos/Evil/Good/Law
Magic Missile
Poison
Prestidigitation
Scare
Shatter
Shocking Grasp
Slow
Touch of Fatigue
Touch of Idiocy
Vampiric Touch
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Or with beguiling gift. Or with a good bluff. Or with some mislabeling in a "treasure horde". Etc.
And I have seen such tactics published in modules.
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Now with that sort of covered, I was wondering how the combat bonuses would be penalized for throwing a Syringe Spear. If a random ranger who does not have the exotic weapon proficiency take up the spear and chucks it at a flying wizard, would it get both penalties for not being proficient in the weapon, as well as using a melee weapon as a thrown weapon, resulting in a -8 to the attack roll? I understand that the range increment would cap at 50 ft, as well as the range penalties, but putting that aside, would there still be more penalties because of that?
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GMs hate you and your combatants love you. Literally.
Also, I was totally going to make pretty much the exact post that Claxon made, but then he made it; I'll just favorite his instead.
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The target of a potion or oil can't dismiss the effect, only the creator of the potion or oil can do that.
Neutralize poison then can be used effectively against venomous creatures.
Gaseous form is a great way to get a wizard off your back for ten minutes.
Skinsend does not qualify as a potion because its casting time is not less than one minute and it has a range of 'personal'. Which is a good thing, because for moment there I thought it was suddenly going to be possible to bring an ancient red dragon down to half its hit points with one quick jab.
Now with that sort of covered, I was wondering how the combat bonuses would be penalized for throwing a Syringe Spear. If a random ranger who does not have the exotic weapon proficiency take up the spear and chucks it at a flying wizard, would it get both penalties for not being proficient in the weapon, as well as using a melee weapon as a thrown weapon, resulting in a -8 to the attack roll? I understand that the range increment would cap at 50 ft, as well as the range penalties, but putting that aside, would there still be more penalties because of that?
The overall modifier would be -0, because the syringe spear has a range increment of 20 ft. which means it is a thrown weapon. Also, the syringe spear surprisingly is a martial weapon, not an exotic one.
If, on the other hand, you were to try and throw something like an actual syringe, which is not designed to be used as a weapon and so would fall under the category of 'improvised weapons', the overall modifier would be -4.
Now, if you were to try and throw something like a syringe longspear (these don't exist,...yet), which is designed to be used as weapon and so does not fall under the category of 'improvised weapons', the overall modifier would be -4 because it does not have an indicated range increment. Also it would be a full-round action to throw it.
I hope this helps with whatever devious plan you're coming up with.
If, on the other hand, you were to try and throw something like an actual syringe, which is not designed to be used as a weapon and so would fall under the category of 'improvised weapons', the overall modifier would be -4.
I stated up a syringe based on this thread (and looking up the spear in question). Do actual syringes exist in Pathfinder already?
If harmful potions were allowed at all, I'd rule that they'd have to be touch spells only.
It doesn't make sense —at least to me— for ranged spells to exist as potions. The reasoning for this is that —as far as I know, I could be wrong— there are no [beneficial/defensive/known-legal] potion spells which are not touch range.I'd also say that due to the obscure/rare as well as harmful/insidious/evil nature of offensive potions, characters would not be able buy them but rather have to craft the items themselves.
So there's a lot of gray area and house ruling going on to do this sort of thing, since the rules seem to imply that offensive-spell potions don't even exist, and if they did I'd presume there'd be limitations.
This is the only actual restriction on what can be a potion:
It can duplicate the effect of a spell of up to 3rd level that has a casting time of less than 1 minute and targets one or more creatures or objects.
The syringe arrow appeared in a very wonky scene in 187... Shooting someone with a bow that used a morphine shot as the tip REALLY can't be easy. Best of all, since the rest of the movie is so utterly grimdark and numbingly serious, it stands out like a neon sign.
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Now with that sort of covered, I was wondering how the combat bonuses would be penalized for throwing a Syringe Spear. If a random ranger who does not have the exotic weapon proficiency take up the spear and chucks it at a flying wizard, would it get both penalties for not being proficient in the weapon, as well as using a melee weapon as a thrown weapon, resulting in a -8 to the attack roll? I understand that the range increment would cap at 50 ft, as well as the range penalties, but putting that aside, would there still be more penalties because of that?The overall modifier would be -0, because the syringe spear has a range increment of 20 ft. which means it is a thrown weapon. Also, the syringe spear surprisingly is a martial weapon, not an exotic one.
If, on the other hand, you were to try and throw something like an actual syringe, which is not designed to be used as a weapon and so would fall under the category of 'improvised weapons', the overall modifier would be -4.
Now, if you were to try and throw something like a syringe longspear (these don't exist,...yet), which is designed to be used as weapon and so does not fall under the category of 'improvised weapons', the overall modifier would be -4 because it does not have an indicated range increment. Also it would be a full-round action to throw it.
I hope this helps with whatever devious plan you're coming up with.
Thanks for the clarification. I was mainly thinking of using these as a counter-weapon against flying creatures and whatnot. Seeing that I can simply pay 100g for the spear, then 300g for a potion of Ghoul Touch, this helps stop rampant flying spellcasters blanketing the field with fireballs by dropping them down to the ground from up to 100 feet in the sky.
I was taking a look at my Adventurer's Armory, and came across this Item.
** spoiler omitted **
Now with this, I was wondering if you can apply potions that would deal damage or effects to this, like a Potion of Inflict Light Wounds. If so, I am curious on how a creature's defense would apply, such as Spell Resistance.
Moreover, if applying offensive spells into potions would work, what other great spells would work in a bottle?
I love the idea, but I am not yet convinced that it is legal.
M Adventurer's Armory only talks about injecting poisons, and if that has changed, it hasn't gotten to the SRD yet: link.So do we know whether injecting a potion works? Injecting an ingestion poison does not work, and potions have to be imbibed, as far as I know.
This is the only actual restriction on what can be a potion:
It can duplicate the effect of a spell of up to 3rd level that has a casting time of less than 1 minute and targets one or more creatures or objects.
The additional restriction that bars spells with a range of 'personal' can be found in the magic item creation section of the rules.
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If harmful potions were allowed at all, I'd rule that they'd have to be touch spells only.
It doesn't make sense —at least to me— for ranged spells to exist as potions. The reasoning for this is that —as far as I know, I could be wrong— there are no [beneficial/defensive/known-legal] potion spells which are not touch range.
I tend to agree with you, but until such is made explicit in the rules--it's fair game.
Potions of magic missile and shocking grasp are rather cheezy, and they are glaringly missing from any published sources of which I know.
I will point our that there are several ranged spells on the list of potions in the appendix of the Ultimate Equipment rule book. However, those spells only create an effect from afar rather than produce an effect that travels from point A to point B. Here I should point out that magic missile is really the only spell from the Core Rulebook that I know of that does anything like that.
Finally, I will say that I have seen in published material potions of inflict meant to be used by undead as "healing" potions, and potions of poison used as traps, but i agree these are special cases.
Potion of stinking cloud. Heh heh heh.
So do we know whether injecting a potion works? Injecting an ingestion poison does not work, and potions have to be imbibed, as far as I know.
That's a good point Harzerkatze, and this whole discussion about potions in a syringe spear may then be moot. However, any potion can be made into an oil, and oils are not imbibed. On the other hand, I'm not sure injecting an oil would work, because a character typically needs to smear the oil on themselves.
But, I get the sense from the description of the syringe spear that it's intended to deliver potions as well as poisons, and maybe even philters, acids and other alchemical substances.
After further consideration, I am not so sure potions/oils would work in a syringe spear.
Sorry Cao Phen.
If, on the other hand, you were to try and throw something like an actual syringe, which is not designed to be used as a weapon and so would fall under the category of 'improvised weapons', the overall modifier would be -4.I stated up a syringe based on this thread (and looking up the spear in question). Do actual syringes exist in Pathfinder already?
Syringes are mentioned in at least one Adventure Path. Used for diabolical medical experiments, but they aren't statted' up.
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Tiny Wasp constructs with a dose of a cursed potion in them... Make a swarm...
Here's the actual item, for the curious (I figured I'd look up its actual description on the d20pfsrd, then figured I'd share it).
It looks like the intent is for a poison, and the original description doesn't mention potions.
Also, while I'm here, potions, and magic item creation rules on potions.
Also, Poison while I'm here, why not.
It is possible that an oil could be read to work, depending on your definition of "smear". But really, I think the spear is predominantly to be used with poison, as has been mentioned.
My mind is till blown at the idea of a potion of magic missile.
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Ok, ok. So was taking a peek at the items allowed in the additional resources, and apparently there are two different spears.
The first is the Syringe Spear from Adventurer's Armory.
100g. 1d8, x3, 20ft Range, Martial Weapon. "Typically" injects a poison. Takes 1 minute to refill.
The second one is from way back, a year earlier than Adventurer's Armory.
The Injection Spear from Classic Horrors Revisited.
60g. 1d8, x3. No Range, Exotic Weapon. Can store up to 5 doses of poisons, drugs, or potions. Must be proficient in it to inject doses.
I think there is the problem. Both d20pfsrd and Nethys might had messed up on the data. d20pfsrd does not have this information set up yet, and Nethys possibly thought it was the same weapon.
Another reason to read books first. =)
If alchemists can make personal potions using their special brew potion, or by using their extracts, then skinsend for lots'o'fun. There's now a weaker version and a completely helpless original!
Even for an alchemist "the spell must be one that can be made into a potion", and skinsend does not qualify because its casting time is not less than one minute and it has a range of 'personal'.
Ok, ok. So was taking a peek at the items allowed in the additional resources, and apparently there are two different spears.
The first is the Syringe Spear from Adventurer's Armory.
100g. 1d8, x3, 20ft Range, Martial Weapon. "Typically" injects a poison. Takes 1 minute to refill.The second one is from way back, a year earlier than Adventurer's Armory.
The Injection Spear from Classic Horrors Revisited.
60g. 1d8, x3. No Range, Exotic Weapon. Can store up to 5 doses of poisons, drugs, or potions. Must be proficient in it to inject doses.I think there is the problem. Both d20pfsrd and Nethys might had messed up on the data. d20pfsrd does not have this information set up yet, and Nethys possibly thought it was the same weapon.
Another reason to read books first. =)
Well, if that is the case then it seems the melee version of the syringe spear can, and is intended to, deliver potions.
Now, Infusions are a different story.
Yes, an infusions are a different story. Now, it remains to be decided if alchemist extracts can be used with a melee syringe spear.
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Ok, ok. So was taking a peek at the items allowed in the additional resources, and apparently there are two different spears.
The first is the Syringe Spear from Adventurer's Armory.
100g. 1d8, x3, 20ft Range, Martial Weapon. "Typically" injects a poison. Takes 1 minute to refill.The second one is from way back, a year earlier than Adventurer's Armory.
The Injection Spear from Classic Horrors Revisited.
60g. 1d8, x3. No Range, Exotic Weapon. Can store up to 5 doses of poisons, drugs, or potions. Must be proficient in it to inject doses.I think there is the problem. Both d20pfsrd and Nethys might had messed up on the data. d20pfsrd does not have this information set up yet, and Nethys possibly thought it was the same weapon.
Another reason to read books first. =)
Nethys here. I actually did mark these as the same weapon, in large part due to them being very similar, and the syringe spear's description saying "also called an injection spear".
I actually did ask about this, but never received a response.
It's as you say though, no one source is infallible, and anyone referencing material off my site should still double check the books if they can. Especially when I list multiple sources, as the only one I'm displaying is the most recent.
What about alchemical substances? Alchemists fire? Acid? When injected would they do the same thing as throwing them except they attacked party does not recieve a reflex for half, and no splash damage?
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I've been under the impression that elixirs (Craft Wondrous Item) are basically potions that can be made from any spell?
True, but making one requires the GM create a new Wondrous item. It isn't just the player says "I can't make it potion so I'll make it an Elixir based on the chart here let me see."
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The issue with using this as an Alchemist is that the Alchemist's formulae list is REALLY lacking on offensively-useful spells. Almost everything he does is a straight-up buff. I could see this possibly working for a Warpriest, though, since he gets to use the Cleric's spell list which has many more offensive spells, and at higher levels the syringe spear would be dealing increasing damage as well. But then you're relying on potions and poisons only, of course.