Epic DR no longer so epic


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

That's DR/magic is highly effective against a great many summoned creatures I find. It's hardly useless.


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"X got published so individual Y must hate Z."

Whence this need to characterized individual designers as acting on a grudge against rules?

Believe me, the game's designers like the rules. Probably more than you. They just don't always see it the same way you do, and they are not always right (but not necessarily both at the same time).

Sometimes it just seemed like a good idea to them at the time (and sometimes it actually is a good idea even if it doesn't look like it to you at first.)


Ravingdork wrote:

One thing to remember about SR, is that it is all or nothing.

That is almost never the case with DR.

and as someone already pointed out, SR is the magical equivalent to AC not DR. which is also an all or nothing thing.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Mythic Evil Lincoln wrote:

"X got published so individual Y must hate Z."

Whence this need to characterized individual designers as acting on a grudge against rules?

Believe me, the game's designers like the rules. Probably more than you. They just don't always see it the same way you do, and they are not always right (but not necessarily both at the same time).

Sometimes it just seemed like a good idea to them at the time (and sometimes it actually is a good idea even if it doesn't look like it to you at first.)

Would be nice at least to know why they reversed themselves on their previous stance on this particular issue.


If you have 150 hp and a great wyrm red dragon greater vital strikes you with it's bite attack, that DR/10 wouldn't make much of a difference.

@Ravingdork - I wasn't arguing that DR/10 was universally worthless, not at all. Just that theoretically it wouldn't be much help vs. a great wyrm red dragon.


Nicos wrote:
I suppose is like great wyrms CR 22 having DR/magic, who cares?

Some parts of stat blocks are simply there for flavor.

The DR/magic here at least lends to the explanation of why every magistrate with a dragon problem doesn't just draft 1000 commoners with light crossbows.


Ataraxias wrote:
Nicos wrote:
I suppose is like great wyrms CR 22 having DR/magic, who cares?

Some parts of stat blocks are simply there for flavor.

The DR/magic here at least lends to the explanation of why every magistrate with a dragon problem doesn't just draft 1000 commoners with light crossbows.

more like 1,000 commoners with muskets

because the AC alone stops 1,000 commoners with light crossbows

Scarab Sages

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Umbriere Moonwhisper wrote:
Ataraxias wrote:
Nicos wrote:
I suppose is like great wyrms CR 22 having DR/magic, who cares?

Some parts of stat blocks are simply there for flavor.

The DR/magic here at least lends to the explanation of why every magistrate with a dragon problem doesn't just draft 1000 commoners with light crossbows.

more like 1,000 commoners with muskets

because the AC alone stops 1,000 commoners with light crossbows

Nope

Just 950 of them.


Umbriere Moonwhisper wrote:
Ataraxias wrote:
Nicos wrote:
I suppose is like great wyrms CR 22 having DR/magic, who cares?

Some parts of stat blocks are simply there for flavor.

The DR/magic here at least lends to the explanation of why every magistrate with a dragon problem doesn't just draft 1000 commoners with light crossbows.

more like 1,000 commoners with muskets

because the AC alone stops 1,000 commoners with light crossbows

10% of those 1000 commoners will roll natural 19-20 with an average of 4.5 damage x2. That if the average holds that would actually kill the great wyrm.


But, since most of those crits (if averaged) will still fail to pass DR, then still matters not. Plus, more a question of can they overcome the fear aura? Also, how many commoners can a Great Wurm kill in one pass/turn?


Jack Rift wrote:
But, since most of those crits (if averaged) will still fail to pass DR, then still matters not. Plus, more a question of can they overcome the fear aura? Also, how many commoners can a Great Wurm kill in one pass/turn?

That's the point, without the DR a force of commoners can eliminate a great wyrm, so the DR is actually there for flavor.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Mythic Evil Lincoln wrote:

"X got published so individual Y must hate Z."

Whence this need to characterized individual designers as acting on a grudge against rules?

Because it is a real possibility.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Cerberus Seven wrote:
Ataraxias wrote:
Jack Rift wrote:
But, since most of those crits (if averaged) will still fail to pass DR, then still matters not. Plus, more a question of can they overcome the fear aura? Also, how many commoners can a Great Wurm kill in one pass/turn?
That's the point, without the DR a force of commoners can eliminate a great wyrm, so the DR is actually there for flavor.
Well, they have to be able to actually hit it first. With ACs in the high 30s or 40s, most great wyrms aren't going to be hit by a commoner except the 0.25% of the time they roll two natural 20s in a row. If a 'force' in this case is roughly a thousand mooks swarming the dragon, somehow I doubt their two lucky bow shots will be the equivalent of Bard slaying Smaug.

It will no be critically hit. It will be hit 5% of the time.

The argument is that without DR/magic the 1,000 commoners crossbowman would be hitting on a natural 20 from outside the range of the fear aura of the dragon, delivering 225 hp of damage/round without any critical.
With DR 10 only the critical hits would deliver some damage, and only when rolling above average damage.

Adding a sprinkling of 1st level clerics, paladins, sorcerers and wizards with the Magic weapon spell will remove the effect of the DR/magic, making the dragon commoner food.

- * -

magnuskn wrote:
Starsunder wrote:
Artanthos wrote:
Nicos wrote:
I suppose is like great wyrms CR 22 having DR/magic, who cares?

Characters with DR/Magic would care.

The dragon will bypass.

Lol no they wouldn't likely care, when they probably have something like DR 10/Magic, and the dragon bites for 4d8+20 or whatever.
Um, yeah, they would care. If there is one disparity in favor of monsters, it is that they have vastly more hitpoints than most player characters. So while damage reduction is not that big a deal if you have 300 hitpoints to play with, it becomes an entirely other factor when you only have something like 150.

DR/something is more useful for creature with a lot of hit point.

If you have 150 HP and DR 10/- and the adversary do 50 HP of damage with each hit you will be down with 4 hits. Your DR would have mitigated 40 hp of damage. Without the Dr you would have gone down with 3 hits.

If you have 300 hp it will require 8 hits. Your DR would have mitigated 80 hp of damage. Without the Dr you would have gone down with 6 hits.


@Diego: Yeah, I realized after I posted that whole thing that I'd had a brain fart in my rules recollection and game logic. So, just deleted it, since it added nothing to the conversation in this thread. Sorry!


Martial Artist Monk?
Smite
Furious Weapon
Bane Weapon


My main bit of issue is: DR is already disgustingly easy to overcome. Dr/Epic before was kind of the one bit bad DR to rule them all. My 5th level monk can overcome most DR 10 and below and still do a sprinkling of damage, and on a crit can still pack quite a whallop. I don't really feel like Martials are so "shut down" by DR as so many people say. Maybe it's a disparity in how people build. I don't minmax, but I do optimize, and honestly by about level 5 any martial should be able to overcome dr 5 with ease and do plenty of damage, dr 10 regularly and still do fairly consistent hurt, and dr 15 pretty often with just enough damage to matter.

Here's my bit about it. SR is AC for spellcasters. Yes. DR is Energy Resistance: Physical. How many abilities realistically overcome Energy Resistance? Before the new mythic spells, not many. So here's what we have.

Martials: Overcome AC, and then DR to apply damage.

Casters: Overcome AC (if required), Overcome SR (If Required), Overcome Save (If Required), Overcome Energy Resistance (If Required)

So Martials IN THEORY only need to bypass two levels in order to apply their damage. While a Caster in a worst-case scenario would need to overcome FOUR levels of defense. Most casters would simply not choose an element that they have resist against, but sometimes them' the breaks.

DR is there to make it so even Martials need to work for the damage.

EDIT: I would like to clarify that I'm in no way saying casters are underpowered. I just don't think DR is that big a deal in the first place, so I was excited to see a DR that was difficult to overcome, but now it's just another sheet of paper before the mighty blade.


Thomas Long 175 wrote:

Martial Artist Monk?

Smite
Furious Weapon
Bane Weapon

Greater Magic Weapon cast at Caster level 24th or higher

+6 weapon crafted by an 18th level caster

Martial Artist Monk

Smite

Clustered Shots

AM BARBARIAN'S LOINCLOTH


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It sure must be riveting to gather round the table to one shot Sauron. Darn that pesky 15 epic DR stopping 1/9000 of my damage. It sure ruined the campaign.


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Cubic Prism wrote:
It sure must be riveting to gather round the table to one shot Sauron. Darn that pesky 15 epic DR stopping 1/9000 of my damage. It sure ruined the campaign.

I'd love to one shot sauron with a squirrel casting evard's black tentacles.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Thomas Long 175 wrote:
Cubic Prism wrote:
It sure must be riveting to gather round the table to one shot Sauron. Darn that pesky 15 epic DR stopping 1/9000 of my damage. It sure ruined the campaign.
I'd love to one shot sauron with a squirrel casting evard's black tentacles.

Your Sauron has really few hit points if he can be one shotted by Black tentacles:

PRD wrote:
If the tentacles succeed in grappling a foe, that foe takes 1d6+4 points of damage and gains the grappled condition.

And a pitiful CMD for a creature of his (supposed) CR if the tentacles can succeed at a CMB check against him.

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