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Mythic Adventures has this to say about DR/epic:
Is it me, or does this kind of suck in that epic DR no longer seems wuite so epic?
Also, why does Paizo insist on devaluing existing rules rather than just adding new content? First it was planetary teleport and Strike Back, and now it's this.
Discuss.
Feels familiar.
I agree, and I will be ignoring this and go with good old "pure enhancement bonus".
I like the interplanetary teleport :) including the greater teleport nerf that followed/was explained.
I think they 'devalued' it because of something coming in the WotR AP, where it would be tpk if the party isn't equipped with +4 'the-right-one'-bane weapons... although 'outsider[evil]' seems like a safe choice for bane/favored enemy in that AP(haven't read any of it).
Ughbash: I wanted to read it that way too, but the "all of their abilities" meant I can't quite get there - so I ignore it...
There were already so many ways to overcome DR/epic it was not going to be much more than a speed bump.
Now, it will just slow down low-level non-mythic characters.
Short of using mythic content that the above posters alluded to (I've not read far into the book just yet) there were really only two methods that I've ever heard of: Get an artifact, or get a +4 or +5 bane weapon.
Really, what other methods are there?
Furious.
Play a Paladin.
How would a fighter or rogue choose to 'play a paladin'? doesn't seem like an actual method to bypass DR/Epic, more like players bypassing the game :)
It can be argued that when it says "Total Bonus Value" it means the Total Bonus to hit and damage NOT the enchant level of the weapon. Which would keep it in line with +4 and bane, and that Speed or Vorpal or Flaming would not be applicable.
But I can defintely read it as oh we just decided to effectively get rid of DR Epic.
Except that it says,
Weapons with specialabilities also count as epic for the purposes of overcoming
damage reduction if the total bonus value of all of their
abilities (including the enhancement bonus) is +6 or greater.
If you're running a mythic game at higher levels, the heroes will be doing so much damage that the DR won't even matter. Its the lower levels that'll be scary. As it stands, you can totally throw a CR5 Mythic Barghest at the PCs with 80 hp and DR/10 Epic and Magic.
I mean really? "Okay. I hit. Damage is...607. Oh yeah it's DR. 592."
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Why does Paizo keep adding rules like this that make DR useless? Why not take DR out of the game if they don't like it? This sure seems like someone at Paizo doesn't like DR, so they are inserting rules to basically get rid of it.
It started off great. I loved getting back to needing silver to harm werewolves. And demons being resistant to all but holy weapons.
Now DR seems like a joke. Players don't bother with holy or anything any longer. They focus entirely on getting their enhancement bonus high enough to make DR useless against them. Can't any game designers make DR both effective, while not making it so powerful they feel the need to get rid of it as the game progresses. This is nothing more than Paizo inserting rules to get rid of DR as players level. It really hurts the flavor of a lot of monsters.
Why does Paizo keep adding rules like this that make DR useless? Why not take DR out of the game if they don't like it? This sure seems like someone at Paizo doesn't like DR, so they are inserting rules to basically get rid of it.
It started off great. I loved getting back to needing silver to harm werewolves. And demons being resistant to all but holy weapons.
Now DR seems like a joke. Players don't bother with holy or anything any longer. They focus entirely on getting their enhancement bonus high enough to make DR useless against them. Can't any game designers make DR both effective, while not making it so powerful they feel the need to get rid of it as the game progresses. This is nothing more than Paizo inserting rules to get rid of DR as players level. It really hurts the flavor of a lot of monsters.
If you see James Jacobs post above, this does not seem like it was intentional.
But I can defintely read it as oh we just decided to effectively get rid of DR Epic.
This was not the goal, as far as I know (or hope).
Neither was it something I mandated to the design team to make work for Wrath of the Righteous.
Thank the Golarion gods. Please get this fixed James, for the sake of us DMs. DR is easy enough to carve through at this point.
Why does Paizo keep adding rules like this that make DR useless? Why not take DR out of the game if they don't like it? This sure seems like someone at Paizo doesn't like DR, so they are inserting rules to basically get rid of it.
It started off great. I loved getting back to needing silver to harm werewolves. And demons being resistant to all but holy weapons.
Now DR seems like a joke. Players don't bother with holy or anything any longer. They focus entirely on getting their enhancement bonus high enough to make DR useless against them. Can't any game designers make DR both effective, while not making it so powerful they feel the need to get rid of it as the game progresses. This is nothing more than Paizo inserting rules to get rid of DR as players level. It really hurts the flavor of a lot of monsters.
The book is optional. Relax. Just because some DMs like to shaft their martials with surprise unbreachable DR monsters and make them somewhat useless in a fight doesn't mean Paizo wants that. If my weapon is nearing artifact status, hell yeah I want it to be able to cleave demons, werewolves, and vampires alike. The changes were meant to keep martials from having to dump even more money for multiple weapons of different types. If I need a Holy weapon and a silver weapon and want them to be effective, that is easily more than half my WBL depending on the stage of the game. Think of all the different types of DR. Do you want the fighter to NEED 6 different swords or 1 sword and good gear?
The book is optional. Relax. Just because some DMs like to shaft their martials with surprise unbreachable DR monsters and make them somewhat useless in a fight doesn't mean Paizo wants that. If my weapon is nearing artifact status, hell yeah I want it to be able to cleave demons, werewolves, and vampires alike. The changes were meant to keep martials from having to dump even more money for multiple weapons of different types. If I need a Holy weapon and a silver weapon and want them to be effective, that is easily more than half my WBL depending on the stage of the game. Think of all the different types of DR. Do you want the fighter to NEED 6 different swords or 1 sword and good gear?Why does Paizo keep adding rules like this that make DR useless? Why not take DR out of the game if they don't like it? This sure seems like someone at Paizo doesn't like DR, so they are inserting rules to basically get rid of it.
It started off great. I loved getting back to needing silver to harm werewolves. And demons being resistant to all but holy weapons.
Now DR seems like a joke. Players don't bother with holy or anything any longer. They focus entirely on getting their enhancement bonus high enough to make DR useless against them. Can't any game designers make DR both effective, while not making it so powerful they feel the need to get rid of it as the game progresses. This is nothing more than Paizo inserting rules to get rid of DR as players level. It really hurts the flavor of a lot of monsters.
Shaft martials? Give it a rest already. Some creatures are meant to be highly resistant to physical attacks. Do you complain when a creature has a strong SR messing up casters? You're supposed to be able to waltz into the combat against the demon, cleave through his unholy demonic skin with ease, and waltz out? Really?
I want a martial to do less damage against an opponent with DR to make the creature a more challenging enemy. Not every martial focusing on getting a +5 sword so he can completely ignore DR.
I guess us DMs are "shafting" players by wanting to make combats challenging. That's a pretty lame viewpoint.
I like it. It promotes interesting weapon enhancements a bit more. If you needed to get it up to +6 to overcome that DR, you'd be much less likely to use anything but a straight enhancement.
I like it. It promotes interesting weapon enhancements a bit more. If you needed to get it up to +6 to overcome that DR, you'd be much less likely to use anything but a straight enhancement.
In my experience, interesting weapon enhancements are much more common than straight +s.
I like it. It promotes interesting weapon enhancements a bit more. If you needed to get it up to +6 to overcome that DR, you'd be much less likely to use anything but a straight enhancement.In my experience, interesting weapon enhancements are much more common than straight +s.
And it should stay that way. However, if you start fighting creatures that can shrug off blows from your +4 Flaming Burst Keen Rapier (which is certainly a spectacular weapon), it starts to feel like you made a poor choice in magic weapons.
The book is optional. Relax. Just because some DMs like to shaft their martials with surprise unbreachable DR monsters and make them somewhat useless in a fight doesn't mean Paizo wants that. If my weapon is nearing artifact status, hell yeah I want it to be able to cleave demons, werewolves, and vampires alike. The changes were meant to keep martials from having to dump even more money for multiple weapons of different types. If I need a Holy weapon and a silver weapon and want them to be effective, that is easily more than half my WBL depending on the stage of the game. Think of all the different types of DR. Do you want the fighter to NEED 6 different swords or 1 sword and good gear?Shaft martials? Give it a rest already. Some creatures are meant to be highly resistant to physical attacks. Do you complain when a creature has a strong SR messing up casters? You're supposed to be able to waltz into the combat against the demon, cleave through his unholy demonic skin with ease, and waltz out? Really?
I want a martial to do less damage against an opponent with DR to make the creature a more challenging enemy. Not every...
Because it's infinitely easier to tear through SR than it is DR. Spell Pen/Greater Spell Pen/Any caster level increase, completely avoiding it with some spells. No. SR is nowhere near as devastating to a caster as DR is to an unprepared martial. The martial tends to only get one place to shine. Combat. In the few moments where he can mosey on up his battleship next to the enemy and let it rip. A caster is always useful. The fighter not so much. Would I rather cleave the demon into tiny bits or watch helplessly as my hits bounce off and seriously consider abandoning my teammates? The caster gets to bend reality to his whim. Can the martial atleast cut some demons down?
Damage reduction is only really bad for martials at the lowest levels. I wonder how many of the people fretting over damage reduction have ever played a campaign which went over level ten?
Damage reduction is only really bad for martials at the lowest levels. I wonder how many of the people fretting over damage reduction have ever played a campaign which went over level ten?
Yeah, the Tarrasque has DR 15/Epic... If losing 15 points of damage at those kinds of levels is causing you problems, your build is all sorts of messed up.
Because it's infinitely easier to tear through SR than it is DR. Spell Pen/Greater Spell Pen/Any caster level increase, completely avoiding it with some spells. No. SR is nowhere near as devastating to a caster as DR is to an unprepared martial. The martial tends to only get one place to shine. Combat. In the few moments where he can mosey on up his battleship next to the enemy and let it rip. A caster is always useful. The fighter not so much. Would I rather cleave the demon into tiny bits or watch helplessly as my hits bounce off and seriously consider abandoning my teammates? The caster gets to bend reality to his whim. Can the martial atleast cut some demons down?
The book is optional. Relax. Just because some DMs like to shaft their martials with surprise unbreachable DR monsters and make them somewhat useless in a fight doesn't mean Paizo wants that. If my weapon is nearing artifact status, hell yeah I want it to be able to cleave demons, werewolves, and vampires alike. The changes were meant to keep martials from having to dump even more money for multiple weapons of different types. If I need a Holy weapon and a silver weapon and want them to be effective, that is easily more than half my WBL depending on the stage of the game. Think of all the different types of DR. Do you want the fighter to NEED 6 different swords or 1 sword and good gear?Shaft martials? Give it a rest already. Some creatures are meant to be highly resistant to physical attacks. Do you complain when a creature has a strong SR messing up casters? You're supposed to be able to waltz into the combat against the demon, cleave through his unholy demonic skin with ease, and waltz out? Really?
I want a martial to do less damage against an opponent with DR to make the creature a more challenging enemy. Not every...
SR is not that easy to punch through. Some creatures have resistances above and beyond SR spellcasters have to deal with. I don't see why martials shouldn't as well.
Martials do not deal with DR that often. When they do, it should stand out. They should have a harder time damaging creatures.
At the level they start dealing with epic DR, they are doing so much damage as to punch right through it with sheer damage. This rule is going to make DR a joke. Why even put it in the game if it is easily defeated. Waste of printing space if this rule stands up.
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Would this be a good time to suggest scaling DR penetration for overcoming /Epic? I know some people use it for /Magic (or did, once upon a time). Essentially (converting it to the new definition of DR/Epic), for every point of total effective enhancement bonus above +5, you ignore 5 points of DR/Epic. This would mean that to overcome the Tarrasque's DR completely, you'd need to be using a +8 weapon, but a +6 weapon would turn it into DR 10. An alternative would be that the effective enhancement bonus needed above +5 increases by 1 for every 5 DR, so the Tarrasque's DR would effectively be 15/+8. I know this is a bit of a throwback to older versions of D&D, but with the significant reduction in DR numbers that happened in 3.5, it is no longer a case of "bring a weapon of at least this bonus to the battle, or stay at home" like it once was. And if someone's invested 128,000+ gp in a single weapon, they certainly should be effective. It doesn't get round the fact that DR/Epic and Magic is nonsensical, but might help people keep DR/Epic meaningful.
SR is not that easy to punch through....yeah, yeah it is. This is down to spell selection, and any blaster-sorcerer has enough variety that they can have a decent spell for any encounter. If players in your games have issues, they need to improve their system mastery. End of story.
And martials should be able to pound through DR easily. If you can't, you need to up your system mastery.
Casters can't make sure they're ready for every encounter with their few spell slots. And what if they're a spontaneous caster who can't change out their spells? It's not as easy as you make it sound to be prepared for everything for any class.
SR is not that easy to punch through....yeah, yeah it is. This is down to spell selection, and any blaster-sorcerer has enough variety that they can have a decent spell for any encounter. If players in your games have issues, they need to improve their system mastery. End of story.And martials should be able to pound through DR easily. If you can't, you need to up your system mastery.
Casters can't make sure they're ready for every encounter with their few spell slots. And what if they're a spontaneous caster who can't change out their spells? It's not as easy as you make it sound to be prepared for everything for any class.
1 or 2 spells that don't require SR of either the highest spell level you can cast or just below it. Just look at some of the amazing conjuration spells. Glitterdust is a blinding effect with no SR. If you're a boom mage, You have a spell that pierces SR, Period. If you don't, you'd have to be awfully ignorant of monsters that resist magic.
If you focus conjuration, I believe that get access to spells targeting all saves and they tend to ignore SR.
Why did they just not make it DR/Mythic
Mythic you have a Mythic tier or Mythic weapon.
While Mythic game go to Epic levels. It starts not Epic on lower level.
Also Epic game maybe mythic it dose not have to be.
You could also combind the two to have DR/Mythic and Epic so that need both Mythic tiers and be level 20+ or, Mythic weapon that is artifact as well or, Mythic tiers with artifact, or epic level with mythic weapon.
SR is not equivalent to Damage Reduction. SR is equivalent to Armor Class. It is VERY easy to get around SR...you can either boost your caster level, or you can use spells which ignore it (the equivalent of touch attacks).
The closest thing to DR that spellcasters have to worry about are energy resistances/immunities and other immunities (such as immune to mind-affecting, etc).
These can be circumvented by merely not attacking the appropriate resistance/immunity and using different spells.
Martials do NOT have that option.
The reason saving throws exist is for parity on this scale. Martials generally don't inflict save conditions, at least until higher levels. Spellcasters do, but have to put up with the other stuff so at least there's some chance of failure.
==Aelryinth
There were already so many ways to overcome DR/epic it was not going to be much more than a speed bump.
Now, it will just slow down low-level non-mythic characters.
Short of using mythic content that the above posters alluded to (I've not read far into the book just yet) there were really only two methods that I've ever heard of: Get an artifact, or get a +4 or +5 bane weapon.
Really, what other methods are there?
+4 furious weapon, paladin's smite evil (and antipaladin's smite good) and penetrating strike (and the greater version for ignoring 10 points).
One thing to remember about SR, is that it is all or nothing.
That is almost never the case with DR.
Lol no they wouldn't likely care, when they probably have something like DR 10/Magic, and the dragon bites for 4d8+20 or whatever.I suppose is like great wyrms CR 22 having DR/magic, who cares?Characters with DR/Magic would care.
The dragon will bypass.
Um, yeah, they would care. If there is one disparity in favor of monsters, it is that they have vastly more hitpoints than most player characters. So while damage reduction is not that big a deal if you have 300 hitpoints to play with, it becomes an entirely other factor when you only have something like 150.