I have been playing the WotW Campaign (on Book 2, Part 2 AFAIK), and we just got done with a tough (yet entertaining) Boss Fight with our party. (The Fight was modified and/or changed altogether compared to the one we were probably supposed to get; I won't spoil anything with this, so don't worry about it.)
We're playing 16 Point Buy (odd number, but DM chose) in a 25 Point Buy recommended campaign, and it's fairly Low Magic/Wealth, so the difficulty is definitely ramped up. I'm now an 8th Level Mobile Fighter tank who specializes in a Greatsword + Buckler style of fighting (GM approved usage). In one of our previous fights, we got a +2 Dagger. Unfortunately, I have only a Masterwork Greatsword at the time.
At the part we're in, we do have a lot of money saved up (~20K GP), but we need to save this money for our Base of Operations for traps and the like. At any rate...
I'm comparing my weapons, and at this point I'm not really sure I should bother with the Greatsword and Buckler combination; I might just get a Tower Shield and keep using the +2 Dagger so I can have more AC and more to hit. (I had to spend a feat in order to be able to use my Greatsword/Buckler combination.)
So here's the options I came up with:
1. Sell Sword + Buckler, get Tower Shield, and use +2 Dagger rest of campaign.
2. Keep Sword + Buckler, find a way to transfer enhancements from Dagger to Sword.
3. Sell Dagger for +1 Weapon property.
Thoughts? Suggestions? Concerns? Recommendations? Anything is helpful!
Do you get any large penalties using the greatsword one-handed?
If it's just a damage issue then the greatsword is still the better option. A +2 dagger stats 1d4+2 which is an average of 4.5, and the greatsword stats 2d6 which is an average of 7. The only thing that differs the two is a +1 to hit.
If AC is the issue I would just sell the dagger and go for better armor.
I still use it 2 hands, just the -1 from Buckler.
Average damage, true, but against creatures that constantly have DR/Magic or Incorporeals. The sad part is I got Ghost Touch on my Dagger just for getting the Killing Blow on the Boss.
Sell dagger and get the +1 greatsword.
With pathfinder DR, there isn't anything that a +2 will penetrate that a +1 doesn't already.
Sell dagger and get the +1 greatsword.
With pathfinder DR, there isn't anything that a +2 will penetrate that a +1 doesn't already.
The issue is that we have ran into a lot of Incorporeal/DR creatures in this campaign so far (whether that's part of the original module or not, I won't know), so it's fairly commonplace. (Also, Magic DR for our games scale as a pre-requisite of having a +1 Enhancement for every 5 Magic DR the creature has.)
Another issue is that the Dagger was originally given to me as a Party Item (with our loot system, items we normally distribute from ourselves incur a "money displacement"; people with more valuable items of one category have less priority than people with few or no valuable items. As a Party Item, I'm only using it as a backup, so it doesn't "cost" me anything). With the rules we have set, I can't just renege and be all like "I'm selling this so I can enhance my current weapon!"
It's something that I'll need to bring up next session anyways; it's not that I don't like the Dagger, it's very useful and has made me not useless in such fights. The problem is that it's sort of forcing me to change the playstyle and build that I currently have my character set up for, which is in essence making me seem more useless to the party in the grand scheme of things.
Then as a party sell the damn thing and up your main weapon....home game rules 101...make the beat sh....stuff guy more effective. 1/2 the sell price goes to one person...big whoop when you need to make things die...and die quick. If you needed the magic to get through DR then the investment is well worth it.
I'll bring it up at our next session and see about getting it either sold or having the properties transferred from the dagger to the sword (I'm sure there is a method that can do this). It's nice to have a back-up weapon, but since I'm a Mobile Fighter using two-handers, a one-handed weapon isn't too helpful (unless I'm grappled or eaten, in which case my Gladius serves properly).
or having the properties transferred from the dagger to the sword (I'm sure there is a method that can do this).
There is, it's called "Craft Arms and Armor"...
or having the properties transferred from the dagger to the sword (I'm sure there is a method that can do this).There is, it's called "Craft Arms and Armor"...
The RAW isn't there to support it, but I don't see how the feat can't "re-fashion" a Dagger into a Greatsword (awkward usage, but still helpful). Thankfully for us, our base has a Blacksmith who is super-skilled in this stuff, so maybe I can convince the GM to have him "re-work" the Dagger into a Greatsword (name it the Spirit Reaver?).
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So if you don't have any magic weapons or armor, you have 20K saved up as a party and now have a +2 dagger....why the heck haven't you gotten to upgrade to a magical weapon before? Also why is there a feat involved in fighting with a greatsword and buckler? Is there some houserule that you can't use a buckler with a 2-handed weapon?
Also why is there a feat involved in fighting with a greatsword and buckler? Is there some houserule that you can't use a buckler with a 2-handed weapon?
I agree with Fake Healer, unless you just don't want to take the -1.
BUCKLER: This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it. You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you lose the buckler’s AC bonus until your next turn. You can cast a spell with somatic components using your shield arm, but you lose the buckler’s AC bonus until your next turn. You can’t make a shield bash with a buckler.
So if you don't have any magic weapons or armor, you have 20K saved up as a party and now have a +2 dagger....why the heck haven't you gotten to upgrade to a magical weapon before? Also why is there a feat involved in fighting with a greatsword and buckler? Is there some houserule that you can't use a buckler with a 2-handed weapon?
The reason we save up money is for "upkeep" on our home base (in case we get clowns invading it to take our stuff or destroy our minions/property), resetting traps, implementing new areas, paying minions, this all costs hundreds to thousands of gold. With the rules we all set, that's the organization's money, not the party's money. By rights, the Party's money was already divided, and chances are we aren't going to be able to divide anything again until the mission is completed.
Also, @Tiberius777, The GM would've said that, but the other issue with using a Buckler with the two-handed weapon is the Buckler is actually more of a hindrance (you lose the AC it gives when attacking, still receiving the -1 to hit). With the feat, I can still use the Buckler for AC when attacking, though I still take the -1 to hit (hopefully I can get a Trait to remove the -1 to hit); it's based off of the 3.X Feat "Improved Buckler Defense" allowing me to maintain my AC while using my off-hand to attack (or in this case, the hand in which the buckler is attached to).
Later on I noticed an Archetype in one of the books that did this same thing, but waiting until 15th level to be able to effectively attack and defend simultaneously seemed stupid and pointless, and I'm sure the GM wouldn't have really went with it, so I'm sure that's why he allowed the feat to work.
The RAW isn't there to support it, but I don't see how the feat can't "re-fashion" a Dagger into a Greatsword (awkward usage, but still helpful). Thankfully for us, our base has a Blacksmith who is super-skilled in this stuff, so maybe I can convince the GM to have him "re-work" the Dagger into a Greatsword (name it the Spirit Reaver?).
Sorry, I wasn't clear. You sell the +2 dagger for half price. You use the money to craft a +1 greatsword for half price. Problem solved. :)
Of course that only works at +1/+2. Beyond that the prices don't match up. But I don't think you're supposed to be able to simply move enchantments around as you please. It'd make the kind of weapons you find completely irrelevant.
The RAW isn't there to support it, but I don't see how the feat can't "re-fashion" a Dagger into a Greatsword (awkward usage, but still helpful). Thankfully for us, our base has a Blacksmith who is super-skilled in this stuff, so maybe I can convince the GM to have him "re-work" the Dagger into a Greatsword (name it the Spirit Reaver?).Sorry, I wasn't clear. You sell the +2 dagger for half price. You use the money to craft a +1 greatsword for half price. Problem solved. :)
Of course that only works at +1/+2. Beyond that the prices don't match up. But I don't think you're supposed to be able to simply move enchantments around as you please. It'd make the kind of weapons you find completely irrelevant.
I'm not sure if I made it clear enough, but because I got the killing blow on the boss, it became a +2 Ghost Touch dagger. So it's worth 18,302 total. We get a 10% increase on whatever we sell.
Selling for over half and crafting for less than that same price does make it seem more possible. Our base does have a Blacksmith proficient in such skills, and being able to craft it for half price (i.e. 9,000 GP) does make it worthwhile and can obviously be reflavored as "reforging" the dagger.
If anything, what I need to do is try and sell the story to our Lawful Evil group, though it will be tough if not impossible since the rules we have in place for loot may screw it up. I also have a Scabbard of Vigor which I used for the fight (but ran out of duration, unfortunately), but it's still doable. Here's what I figure:
Since I got it as a secondary item (and doesn't count towards my Gold Points), I can always retract my Scabbard of Vigor (meaning the party gets it to either argue it amongst themselves or sell it), and apply the Dagger as Gold Points. Since it functions as my own, I could then sell it to get it repurposed as the +2 Ghost Touch Greatsword called the Spirit Reaver. The only issue is that I think it's unfair to the party that I take an item that's worth 18,000 GP and sell it to pay for properties to instead apply to my Sword (costing 9,000 GP, with 900 left over from our trait). Simultaneously, this doesn't change the value that it's still "worth" 18,000 GP, so it'd still be accrued, just repurposed to my sword.
I think I finally found the solution. Thanks!
Give the extra money made back to the party fund.
Could you explain your party loot system so we can understand what exactly you are up against?
Bullet points please.
@ Man of Steel 84: The houserules are more about how I can use a Greatsword with the Buckler than it is about the weapons I'm concerned with.
@ Errant_Epoch: It's a tad complicated, since we're Evil, we have to be in order to do things properly, but I'll try to explain it;
-Items found from defeated enemies in an encounter are pooled into a pile. We sort the items one by one to determine the type of item it is and its value until all items are filed.
-3 Categories of Items are currently devised: Offense (helps in attacks, spells, etc.), Defense (helps in AC, Saves, Resists, etc.), and Miscellaneous (provides special features or utility). Each Party Member starts with 0 in each category. When that party member gets an item in the respective category (determined by the GM), its total value is applied in that category.
-Characters choose whether or not to "bid" on (and/or in some cases, roll for) the item in question. Those with the lower number in the category the item relates to have priority to roll for the item in comparison to those with a higher number. When characters have equal values in the category the item represents, it goes to a "roll off," and whoever rolls the highest gets the item.
-Characters who do not want to "bid" on an item lose priority to those who do, but should no character want to "bid" on the item (using it as a party item, or an item as back-up for the party), yet still want to use the item (until perhaps a better one comes along), it goes to secondary tier bidding, where no points are accumulated for acquiring the item.
-Obviously, some item restrictions for characters do apply based on proficiency of usage.
-Items we acquire that nobody chooses to obtain (that is, after both bidding types have occurred and no one wanted the item in question) gets sold and pooled into the party fund. An agreed upon amount is set aside for services and such the party must acquire, but the rest is divvied up evenly with the party.
-Items that a party member previously obtained that no longer want to use will be thrown back into the pile for other to "bid" on; doing so subtracts the value amount the category was raised. (To prevent munchkining a loop hole, this was to be done before the bidding process begins on all the items.)
The only thing now with this is since we're in an organization, we have a separate "organization fund" which currently serves as the "party fund," and carries all of the money we acquire due to the organization's activities (this is part of the campaign, not our original loot rules, so not much we can do about it).
you have many other house rules besides the one feat... +1 for every 5/magic, finishing blow to a boss to make your dagger better... but that's fine. its just hard to advise you when the assumption is you are using the Pathfinder rules. The farther you stray (1 house rule leads to more in my experience) the harder it is to give you helpful advice.
The feat and the DR scale pertain to combat (which has very little relevance to help with the situation). The third was considered the loot reward the GM gave us(/me) for defeating agonized souls (since ghosts have no treasure, it was a GM Special fight, and he didn't want to leave us unrewarded).
While you are correct that house rules do stray from the original, the ones we use don't exactly pertain to the situation that I presented (a question as to what I should do about my weapon problem, which is about solved).
I'm not sure if I made it clear enough, but because I got the killing blow on the boss, it became a +2 Ghost Touch dagger. So it's worth 18,302 total. We get a 10% increase on whatever we sell.
Selling for over half and crafting for less than that same price does make it seem more possible. Our base does have a Blacksmith proficient in such skills, and being able to craft it for half price (i.e. 9,000 GP) does make it worthwhile and can obviously be reflavored as "reforging" the dagger.
Aaah, I did miss the ghost-touch part, my apologies for missing that. And yeah, it sounds like the money works out then.
Hopefully if you are upfront with your group they will be okay with the claiming and selling bit. You might want to remind them that they may want to do something similar themselves in the future. ;)
I'm not sure if I made it clear enough, but because I got the killing blow on the boss, it became a +2 Ghost Touch dagger. So it's worth 18,302 total. We get a 10% increase on whatever we sell.
Selling for over half and crafting for less than that same price does make it seem more possible. Our base does have a Blacksmith proficient in such skills, and being able to craft it for half price (i.e. 9,000 GP) does make it worthwhile and can obviously be reflavored as "reforging" the dagger.
Aaah, I did miss the ghost-touch part, my apologies for missing that. And yeah, it sounds like the money works out then.
Hopefully if you are upfront with your group they will be okay with the claiming and selling bit. You might want to remind them that they may want to do something similar themselves in the future. ;)
Definitely. I'll explain the situation to them and they'll logically understand it.
The casters in your team should give you their gold so you have more option. GOD DOES NOT NEED ITEMS!!!!! =)
The casters in your team should give you their gold so you have more option. GOD DOES NOT NEED ITEMS!!!!! =)
Many people on these forums would say that my wizard friend is not built like any form of God Wizard. (I really wonder where such a ridiculous term gets its name from; too many Lord of the Rings movies?) With that said, he is already crafting Wondrous Items for cost for the party. Our Witch also makes us potions for a severely reduced cost as is, so they are in essence "giving" me gold for items that I request from them.
@ Man of Steel 84: The houserules are more about how I can use a Greatsword with the Buckler than it is about the weapons I'm concerned with.
@ Errant_Epoch: It's a tad complicated, since we're Evil, we have to be in order to do things properly, but I'll try to explain it;
-Items found from defeated enemies in an encounter are pooled into a pile. We sort the items one by one to determine the type of item it is and its value until all items are filed.
-3 Categories of Items are currently devised: Offense (helps in attacks, spells, etc.), Defense (helps in AC, Saves, Resists, etc.), and Miscellaneous (provides special features or utility). Each Party Member starts with 0 in each category. When that party member gets an item in the respective category (determined by the GM), its total value is applied in that category.
-Characters choose whether or not to "bid" on (and/or in some cases, roll for) the item in question. Those with the lower number in the category the item relates to have priority to roll for the item in comparison to those with a higher number. When characters have equal values in the category the item represents, it goes to a "roll off," and whoever rolls the highest gets the item.
-Characters who do not want to "bid" on an item lose priority to those who do, but should no character want to "bid" on the item (using it as a party item, or an item as back-up for the party), yet still want to use the item (until perhaps a better one comes along), it goes to secondary tier bidding, where no points are accumulated for acquiring the item.
-Obviously, some item restrictions for characters do apply based on proficiency of usage.
-Items we acquire that nobody chooses to obtain (that is, after both bidding types have occurred and no one wanted the item in question) gets sold and pooled into the party fund. An agreed upon amount is set aside for services and such the party must acquire, but the rest is divvied up evenly with the party.
-Items that a party member previously obtained...
So basically your group treats "loot" like you would in World of Warcraft on a Raid, i.e. overly complicated...
For most of my groups its general concensus on who needs what and who it should go to. If no one can really use it, it just gets piled with the basic gold and sold later.
If you're an 8th level fighter, I assume you have Power Attack and some respectable strength, say 18. So with a greatsword you'll do 2d6+9+6 damage, average 22. And with Furious Focus there's no hit penalty. Whereas with a +2 dagger you'll do 1d4+2+6+4=14.5 and can't use Furious Focus, so get -3 to hit on your first attack. Seems like a no-brainer to me.
@ BerserkerRed: Yes and no. It's a loot system devised because we're Lawful Evil. If we were a Good party I'm sure it would not function exactly in the manner I described.
On the plus side, it does prevent party members from hogging all the loot.