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Where can I go to read all about that class, and the others in playtest??
I'm actually really glad they're bringing in the Brawler base class; it will help establish the monk as the mystic and the brawler as the street-fighter instead of trying to squish those ideas together into the same class.
Yo: Advanced Class Guide.
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Being enlarged with archon style and crane style as a master of many styles leads to frustration for bad guys. More so if you're a monk of the sacred mountain using bastion stance and iron limb defence (+2 shield bonus to ac). So you end up with free toughness, a free +1 natural armor bonus and an additional +2 shield bonus. Drunken master allows you plenty of ki to work with. If you are level 7, you can heal for 1-2 points of ki (depends on magic items) as your standard action, and with the right feats can drink to get the same amount in temporary HP each time you drink (as well as +2 fort and will saves but at a cumulative -2 ref) and can do so as a swift action.
This is the monk I used to play. Consider that he is the brawler archetype of fighter for eventual penalties to adjacent enemies attacks and concentration checks, and that sounds like effective and fun tanking to me (and the party). Sadly, he won't get that last ability in society play.
But you know, a life oracle could probably do much of this without being on the front lines at all, and could both drink and heal from a safe distance while providing what is essentially fast healing 5...every turn. This can be done while invisible making the tanking aspect play out extremely different. And the oracle build would be ignored since many enemies may not ever know that they are there.
But let's leave alcohol shenanigans and healing magic and armor class and damage reduction and status effects all out of the equation because to tank, you only need high str and the ability to deal damage.
Sorry, I am not sold.
With that said, I am looking at a rogue tank that (while she may be able to deal damage) is built much more around survivability which in turns leads to having many additional tools that end up allowing her to tank. None of them are directly offensive and do not involve any damage being dealt to enemies. No shenanigans, just straight rogue abilities.
And then there is tanking through the typical high survivability means (usually ac and HP/Dr) but add in a reliable way to force enemies to provoke aoo's from allies. Now you have a tank who is unable to damage a for....but he does allow the group to deal more damage to the foes much more rapidly than he could swinging at it by himself.
I believe that I have made my point and I am sure that if I try, I could think up a few more ways to tank while feeling like a tank and not being a primary damage dealer at all or even having a positive modifier strength score. And this is assuming I ignore the list of tanking options above.
You do not have to ever deal any damage to be a tank. That idea is an easily disproven myth.
In my experience, those types of attacks (fort/will save attacks or maneuvers) aren't that reliable. I had thought there was something else that had been figured out. :(You've got three different defenses that you can target. If you build to actually use those abilities, they're very reliable.
The problem with the monk comes up when people try to play him like a Fighter instead of a weirdly specialized mystic. Monks get Maneuver Training as a freebie to get them up to par and a fair number of bonus feats, so they can afford something like Weapon Finesse or Agile Maneuvers.Most opponents aren't going to have unbeatably high CMD, Fort, and Will all at the same time, so being able to target the weakest link in the chain is generally pretty useful. If you're going to tank with a Maneuver Master, Dirty Trick is awesome because there aren't a bunch of monsters running around with bonuses against it like Trip.
The Sensei can make a very cool tank with very high DC Stunning Fist and Touch of Serenity attacks and possibly a few maneuvers, though he gives up his bonus feats. Being able to get reliable buffs from Advice and share key features like evasion and improved evasion can also really help with keeping party members alive, a key component of tanking.
And again, mobility, insanely better saves, the potential for even higher AC, etc. all contribute to some pretty solid monk tanking.
I'm actually really glad they're bringing in the Brawler base class; it will help establish the monk as the mystic and the brawler as the street-fighter instead of trying to squish those ideas together into the same class.
Here is a sample guy at CR 12, see what you can do to her. It's what 2 levels above difficult encounter would look like. See what a 10th level character can do to her. She even has fort saves that are low for maybe a stun.
Valkrie
CN Medium outsider (extraplanar)
Init +3; Senses darkvision 60 ft., deathwatch; Perception +24
DEFENSE
AC 27, touch 19, flat-footed 24 (+8 armor, +6 deflection, +3 Dex)
hp 168 (16d10+80)
Fort +10, Ref +13, Will +15
DR 10/cold iron and lawful; Immune cold, electricity, poison; Resist acid 10, fire 10; SR 23
OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft., fly 100 ft. (perfect)
Melee +2 returning spear +23/+18/+13/+8 (1d8+8/x3)
Ranged +2 returning spear +22 (1d8+6/x3)
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 12th; concentration +18)
Constant—deathwatch, tongues
At will—aid, death ward, gentle repose, plane shift (self and mount only)
3/day—call lightning storm (DC 21), divine power, geas/quest
1/day—breath of life, heal, summon (level 8, 1 sleipnir 100%)
STATISTICS
Str 18, Dex 17, Con 20, Int 13, Wis 20, Cha 23
Base Atk +16; CMB +20; CMD 39
Feats Mounted Combat, Power Attack, Ride-By Attack, Skill Focus (Ride), Spirited Charge, Trample, Vital Strike, Weapon Focus (spear)
Skills Fly +27, Handle Animal +25, Heal +24, Knowledge (planes) +20, Perception +24, Ride +28, Sense Motive +24
Languages Celestial, Common; tongues
SQ battle trained, choose the slain, holy zeal
As a note, I don't really consider SR to be an actual gain. Given the monk's high saves, SR actually seems like a penalty. I also would need to see some more evidence before I'm convinced the monk will actually have better AC. Fighters with armor training and Dex as a primary or secondary attribute can crank their AC up pretty highYou can drop the SR. It's a voluntary feature. So monks aren't hurt by it.
I'm going to post a monk build either later today or sometime tomorrow. My estimate is at lvl 20 a monk will have 43 AC or 38 AC. Likewise for a fighter I estimate 39 AC.
I have fighter at level 20 I did up as bad guy on 20 pt build full wealth so CR 20. That fight has 55 AC and is sword and board two weapon shield bashing fighter using standard fighter as I wanted Armor training over the TWF archetype. Took Eldrich Heritage chain to get Dragon Resistance for 4 natural armor.
Mitheral Full Plate +5 14
Dex 7
Dodge 1
Heavy Shield +5 9
Amulet of natural Armor 5
Ring of protection 5
Natural Armor 4
S 28 (+5 Level +6 Belt PP, +1 inherent)
D 24 (+2 Racial +6 Belt PP)
C 18 (+6 Belt PP)
I 8
W 18 (+6 Headband
C 15 (+2 Inherent)
Feats
H) Two Weapon Fighting
1) Improved Shield Bash
F1) Shield Focus
F2) Weapon Focus Shield
3) Dodge
F4) Weapon Speicialization Shield
5) Skill Focus Perception
F6) Shield Slam
7) Improved TwF
F8) Greater Shield Focus
9) Greate Weapon focus Sheild
F10) Martial Vesatility
11) Shield Master
F12) Greater Weapon Specialization Shield
13) Eldrich Heritage Draconic
F14) Greater TwF
15) Improved Eldrich Heritage
F16) Martial Mastery
17) Lightening Reflexes
F18) Improved Critical Heavy Shield
19) Iron Will
F20) Two Weapon Rend
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I swear every time I leave one of these crop up. tl;dr: Monks are awesome, but you have to think to do it. This means that, yes, you need to understand the system and work for your power. If your allies make buffs available, then Monks are a force-multiplier the likes you'll never see again. If they don't make buffs available... you have to try harder, but its doable.
Basically this will devolve into moving goal-posts from both sides because no one has a hard-definition of what would make them happy. That is, they have solutions in a desperate and angry search of a problem.
If Monks require system mastery, your response should be to master the system, not to be lazy. Some people think having to work is a problem, I think its a feature. I've become a better player in regards to all of my classes because I've played Monks and I propose that the same thing will happen to you, if you let it.
That said, I will concede that Monks do have an accessibility problem in regards to new players. Their choices aren't intuitive like they are for a Fighter. I would not say this is because you have to search for every bonus, etc etc. I'd compare this to playing a Wizard and learning what your spells can do, honestly.
@Lormyr: Good catches on some of that stuff, I learned a thing or two.
i think this post sums up my feelings about the monk and why i enjoy playing them so much. i honestly feel like most other classes are... overly obvious and require very little thought in creation. paladins for instance are so obvious in how to build a great one is doesn't hold my interest, but monks man they take time effort and a bit of cunning. im very glad they are not a "paladin" level difficulty class.
In my experience, those types of attacks (fort/will save attacks or maneuvers) aren't that reliable. I had thought there was something else that had been figured out. :(You've got three different defenses that you can target. If you build to actually use those abilities, they're very reliable.
The problem with the monk comes up when people try to play him like a Fighter instead of a weirdly specialized mystic. Monks get Maneuver Training as a freebie to get them up to par and a fair number of bonus feats, so they can afford something like Weapon Finesse or Agile Maneuvers.Most opponents aren't going to have unbeatably high CMD, Fort, and Will all at the same time, so being able to target the weakest link in the chain is generally pretty useful. If you're going to tank with a Maneuver Master, Dirty Trick is awesome because there aren't a bunch of monsters running around with bonuses against it like Trip.
The Sensei can make a very cool tank with very high DC Stunning Fist and Touch of Serenity attacks and possibly a few maneuvers, though he gives up his bonus feats. Being able to get reliable buffs from Advice and share key features like evasion and improved evasion can also really help with keeping party members alive, a key component of tanking.
And again, mobility, insanely better saves, the potential for even higher AC, etc. all contribute to some pretty solid monk tanking.
I'm actually really glad they're bringing in the Brawler base class; it will help establish the monk as the mystic and the brawler as the street-fighter instead of trying to squish those ideas together into the same class.
Here is a sample guy at CR 12, see what you can do to her. It's what 2 levels above difficult encounter would look like. See what a 10th level character can do to her. She even has fort saves that are low for maybe a stun.
Valkrie
CN Medium outsider (extraplanar)
Init +3; Senses darkvision 60 ft., deathwatch; Perception +24...
A sensei monk should have a stunning fist dc between 21 and 23 at level 10. Thats a better than fifty percent chance to save or loose for the valkyrie every round.
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^ if I am not mistaken a martial artist monk can have a reasonably high stunning fist DC as well, and with the appropriate feats, a solid chance of landing the hit for any stunning fist attempt (this applies to the sensei as well). If a character is actually built around getting stuns and serene touches off, they be able to have a couple of intimidate efficient feats (and combat intimidation dc's haven't seemed to be too terribly difficult from what I have seen) which could result in a rather disgusting massacre of a turn against whatever the monk is up against if any of the offensive features go off successfully.
Spend ki for extra attack, land the hit, free action intimidate, reduce saves, stunning fist on next full Bab attack at higher attack bonus, land it, enemy forced into save at penalty, if that lands, monk annihilates target with remaining attacks and moves on to other targets? Sounds about right. But there are lots of ways a monk can get into this kind of groove.
Masters of many styles cannot get the dc's *quite* as high but they can do some rather obnoxious tanking and land status effects repeatedly with stunning fist, wolf style, mantis style, marid style, or whatever it is they want to do. And heaven forbid an initiative based optimized monk takes djinni style and deafens an opponent or two or three on their turn due to placement and such, reducing the enemies initiative by 4 I believe. There is the monks offensive contribution. Chance to fail all spells with a verbal component and waiting for your party to unleash hell before they get a turn to act (assuming they get one, that is).
And that last ability works as long as any damage is dealt and I figured out at least one way to sneak it in on a character way earlier than normal.
So many ways to 'tank' if you think outside of the box. The box is: have OK ac but just hit really, really hard and as often as possible. Meh.
A sensei monk should have a stunning fist dc between 21 and 23 at level 10. Thats a better than fifty percent chance to save or loose for the valkyrie every round.
If you hit with the attack you previously selected for your stunning fist.
It's not 50%, because even if you get +13 to attack (+7 BAB, +6 from wisdom [16 + 2 racial + 2 item + 2 level ?]), you only have 25% chance of hitting the foe with your best attack. The 50% becomes 12,5%. Much less reliable. A spellcaster can have a 50% chance to affect each member of a group. Per spell. Several times per encounter. Several encounters per day.
When you consider the DR the valkyrie get, you can't really do damage to it (at least, not with a sensei, who will certainly dump STR). The CMD 39 means it's pretty immune to most guys who uses manoeuvers (before accounting for Fly and/or its sleipnir summon included in the CR).
Actually, I think the monk would die before affecting it with his stunning fist.
Spend ki for extra attack, land the hit, free action intimidate, reduce saves, stunning fist on next full Bab attack at higher attack bonus, land it, enemy forced into save at penalty, if that lands, monk annihilates target with remaining attacks and moves on to other targets? Sounds about right. But there are lots of ways a monk can get into this kind of groove.
You have to hit and do damage to get the free action intimidate.
Then you have to make an intimidation check with 31 DC (for the valkyrie in example).The same with Stunning fist (you have to select the attack at first, then hit the target, then the target have to fail the fortitude save).
Then, you don't annihilate the target with the rest of your attack, because you do 1d6+2 per attack against a DR 10 monster (=> no damage).
Yes, doing damage matters.
Masters of many styles cannot get the dc's *quite* as high but they can do some rather obnoxious tanking and land status effects repeatedly with stunning fist, wolf style, mantis style, marid style, or whatever it is they want to do. And heaven forbid an initiative based optimized monk takes djinni style and deafens an opponent or two or three on their turn due to placement and such, reducing the enemies initiative by 4 I believe. There is the monks offensive contribution. Chance to fail all spells with a verbal component and waiting for your party to unleash hell before they get a turn to act (assuming they get one, that is).
Same as before : you need to hit and they need to fail their save.
The 1 to 3 per round become a 25% to affect one, at best.And affecting initiative after the beginning of the fight is useless, because initiative is rolled BEFORE combat begins, and is never rolled again.
To-hit and damage are the only useful and reliable means to be really effective in combat as a melee character.
By the way, even a fighter can have better chance of inflicting conditions on ennemies than monks, thanks to early access of critical feats (having good BAB is a great advantage over the monk, and critical mastery at high levels, added to the good threat weapons).
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I won't deny that a monk will have greater difficulty landing their blows. Accuracy is an issue for the class. However, I can easily see a monk, the sensei or martial artist perhaps, with a +16 or 17 to attack at level 10 before using flurry. +7 from Bab, +6 or +7 from wis headgear, +1 weapon focus, +1 from amulet of mighty fists. These don't seem like unrealistic options. And if they wear armor (in the case of a sensei) they can add another +2 for brawling. Sensei's already lose out on fast movement and flurry. They just replace the beautiful monk ac perks with armor bonuses instead (though they may lose other archetype specific abilities as well. I admit that my knowledge of the archetype is not complete).
This amounts to roughly a 50% chance to hit the Valkyrie for a sensei. Assuming they made an effort to optimize stunning fists and attack bonuses at all, they should have mantis style for an additional +2 to hit and DC. This increases their chance of hitting beyond 50% on the one attack that truly matters to them- the one that stuns. If and when that attack lands, the DC is going to be 10(base)+5(half level)+6 or 7(wisdom modifier)+2 mantis style.
That is a DC 23 or 24 fort save to avoid being stunned. If they went the intimidate in a hit route they could take enforcer and skill focus intimidate. They have a DC of 31 to beat and with 10 ranks of intimidate and skill focus they have a +19 before even adding in stat modifiers.
Enforcer, mantis style, mantis wisdom, skill focus intimidate, weapon focus unarmed strike, and whatever other feat they can qualify for at level 1....this all can be taken by 7th level. With persuasive or any magic item or a +2 charisma bonus and any trait simply giving intimidate as a class skill (never mind a bonus) they are successfully intimidating the valkyrie on average rolls and hitting it on below average rolls and stunning it on average.....
The monk doesn't need to singlehandedly kill this Valkyrie...it's a teamwork game after all, not a single player slaughter fest. So with that said and some -very unoptimized options shown, a simple monk can singlehandedly do their job against the Valkyrie and do it well.....on average.
Never mind this sensi is giving advise and definitely a qinggong monk and abusing the combination. They have a nice sized ki pool, and maybe they have some traits or chose a race which provides even further bonuses mitigating the need for some of the specialized feats or which bring us well beyond the 50% success mark on some actions. This doesn't require all that much system mastery either. If we wanted to go down that route you could drop a couple of levels of monk and dip into synergizing cheese or optimize the Bab while squeezing in more feats and removing the armor or whatever...it opens up all sorts of doors while reducing very little...
I bet I could whip up some non sensei monks that could just as easily tank this Valkyrie and deal little to no damage or never worry about hitting her at all. I have posted general options for this above. Are we really still debating this? I am more than happy to post Cadigan, my no damage dealing low attack bonus headache (aka monk) if that is what it will take to prove my point 'with numbers'. But this seems very blatantly obvious to me that with feats alone a monk can tank (without being anything remotely related to a damage dealer)...never mind everything else the class brings to the table.
I won't deny that a monk will have greater difficulty landing their blows. Accuracy is an issue for the class. However, I can easily see a monk, the sensei or martial artist perhaps, with a +16 or 17 to attack at level 10 before using flurry. +7 from Bab, +6 or +7 from wis headgear, +1 weapon focus, +1 from amulet of mighty fists. These don't seem like unrealistic options. And if they wear armor (in the case of a sensei) they can add another +2 for brawling. Sensei's already lose out on fast movement and flurry. They just replace the beautiful monk ac perks with armor bonuses instead (though they may lose other archetype specific abilities as well. I admit that my knowledge of the archetype is not complete).
This amounts to roughly a 50% chance to hit the Valkyrie for a sensei. Assuming they made an effort to optimize stunning fists and attack bonuses at all, they should have mantis style for an additional +2 to hit and DC. This increases their chance of hitting beyond 50% on the one attack that truly matters to them- the one that stuns. If and when that attack lands, the DC is going to be 10(base)+5(half level)+6 or 7(wisdom modifier)+2 mantis style.
That is a DC 23 or 24 fort save to avoid being stunned. If they went the intimidate in a hit route they could take enforcer and skill focus intimidate. They have a DC of 31 to beat and with 10 ranks of intimidate and skill focus they have a +19 before even adding in stat modifiers.
Enforcer, mantis style, mantis wisdom, skill focus intimidate, weapon focus unarmed strike, and whatever other feat they can qualify for at level 1....this all can be taken by 7th level. With persuasive or any magic item or a +2 charisma bonus and any trait simply giving intimidate as a class skill (never mind a bonus) they are successfully intimidating the valkyrie on average rolls and hitting it on below average rolls and stunning it on average.....
The monk doesn't need to singlehandedly kill this Valkyrie...it's a teamwork game after all, not a single player slaughter...
For your percentage : 50% to hit x 50% of save failed = 25% of passing. And you didn't found any solution against flight.
Well, you need great wisdom (+7 at level 10 ? It means at least an 18 at start and expecting a +4 wis item by level 10), good charisma (intimidation), good DEX (no or light armor), good CON, correct STR (to avoid medium charge on any damage or malus in STR, and malus to your already very low damage), and correct INT (you need Intimidation and Heal, not accounting for Acrobatics, perception or any skill you want for out-of-combat).
And all that while your ennemy can just spam ranged attack and/or spell-like abilities flying, ignoring the monk totally.
I won't deny that a monk will have greater difficulty landing their blows. Accuracy is an issue for the class. However, I can easily see a monk, the sensei or martial artist perhaps, with a +16 or 17 to attack at level 10 before using flurry. +7 from Bab, +6 or +7 from wis headgear, +1 weapon focus, +1 from amulet of mighty fists. These don't seem like unrealistic options. And if they wear armor (in the case of a sensei) they can add another +2 for brawling. Sensei's already lose out on fast movement and flurry. They just replace the beautiful monk ac perks with armor bonuses instead (though they may lose other archetype specific abilities as well. I admit that my knowledge of the archetype is not complete).
This amounts to roughly a 50% chance to hit the Valkyrie for a sensei. Assuming they made an effort to optimize stunning fists and attack bonuses at all, they should have mantis style for an additional +2 to hit and DC. This increases their chance of hitting beyond 50% on the one attack that truly matters to them- the one that stuns. If and when that attack lands, the DC is going to be 10(base)+5(half level)+6 or 7(wisdom modifier)+2 mantis style.
That is a DC 23 or 24 fort save to avoid being stunned. If they went the intimidate in a hit route they could take enforcer and skill focus intimidate. They have a DC of 31 to beat and with 10 ranks of intimidate and skill focus they have a +19 before even adding in stat modifiers.
Enforcer, mantis style, mantis wisdom, skill focus intimidate, weapon focus unarmed strike, and whatever other feat they can qualify for at level 1....this all can be taken by 7th level. With persuasive or any magic item or a +2 charisma bonus and any trait simply giving intimidate as a class skill (never mind a bonus) they are successfully intimidating the valkyrie on average rolls and hitting it on below average rolls and stunning it on average.....
The monk doesn't need to singlehandedly kill this Valkyrie...it's a teamwork game after all, not a single player slaughter...
So if you focus on it without doing much damage you can have a 50% hit and a 50% to affect, a complete specialist has a 25% chance. 1 in 4 rounds she might get affected. Meh.
This is for a low fort save mob, many brute 12CR mobs have 17 fort save.
Even low save rating it's a 25% chance and getting worse with every level. Starting out it's pretty good. As you get more attacks, and mobs get more difficult to affect, stunning fist starts to be a bad option and specializing in it is a bad choice. Damage works every time with every attack. Get a lucky stun in (15% for my toon) and I get 2 extra attacks doing great damage, you get a couple extra attacks doing 1/6 or 1d10 +2 or +4 damage. Meh, doing 20 damage a hit at that level is far better, at least be punching through DR or taking down a mob quick.
When it works it's glorious. When it doesn't everyone else has to pull up the slack, 1/4 of the time is a lot of slack.
A sensei gets a base 7/2, regular qinggong gets 8/8/3/3. Sensei doesn't get Medusa's Wrath to take advantage of the stun he might affect so it's going to be 7/2 and not 8/8/8/8/2/2. Loses a chance at Medusa's Wrath, along with many other feats that helps to make monks viable. Chewing up your remaining feats with Mantis style. Let's say you get at Level 9 Mantis Tormet, and use 2 stunning fists on your attack, if it hits and if he doesn't save, now you have a mob that is staggered and then fatigued. Meh. Nice sure when it hits...but at what cost.
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***Edited to exchange Snake Style for Mantis Style***
10th level Sensei on 20 point buy and standard WBL (I was going to give him old age adjustments to match the Sensei image in my head and decided it wasn't worth that debate)-
STR 10 CON 10 DEX 16 (+1 level) INT 10 WIS 20 (+2 human) CHA 8 (+1 level)
Note that I'm even playing a real character here and spending resources to shore up my one and only dump stat so I can use that Diplomacy class skill at some point.
Gear- Headband of Inspired Wisdom +6, Bodywrap of Mighty Strikes +2, Ring of Protection +2, Cloak of Resistance +2, potion of fly, potion of barkskin x2, oil of align weapon (lawful) x2, 50gp
Final stats-
STR 10 (+0) CON 10 (+0) DEX 16 (+3) INT 10 (+0) WIS 26 (+8)
Feats-
1st- Stunning Fist, Imp. Unarmed, Scorpion Style, Combat Reflexes, Dodge
3rd- Mantis Style
5th- Mobility
7th- Mantis Wisdom
9th- Mantis Torment
10th- Medusa's Wrath
(11th- Touch of Serenity, 13th- Combat Patrol)
If possible the Sensei drinks his potions of fly and barkskin before combat begins, and annoints his hands with oil of align weapon.
Attack +17/+12 Hit points- 60 (IG) AC 28 Saves- Fort 9 Ref 12 Will 17
Stunning Fist DC - 25 Scorpion Style DC - 23
Even chance that Sensei or Valkyrie go first.
Round 1- Activate Advice to gain benefits of Inspire Greatness, granting bonus hp, +2 to attack, and +1 to Fort saves to self and all allies. Fort save increased to +10. Ready action to strike out at Valkyrie when she charges past.
Round 1 (Valkyrie's turn)- Valkyrie uses Spirited Charge to take down nearest enemy (should be Sensei). Sensei's AC is 28 vs. Valkyrie's average charge attack of 35.5, so odds are Valkyrie hits, Sensei takes 25 points of damage. Sensei makes attack at full BAB with Mantis boost to attempt to Stun Valkyrie. +21 to hit vs. AC 25 (-2 for charging) = 80% chance of connecting. Stunning Fist DC 23 vs. Fort 10 = 75% chance of Stun.
Alternatively the Sensei can target the mount with Scorpion Style, but depending on what kind of mount the Valkyrie's riding that could change whether this is still a CR appropriate challenge. Given her high Ride check, probably not the best idea anyways.
Regardless, the Senseis is buffing the party, making them more likely to survive and better capable of helping to pile on the Valkyrie and quickly finish her off, with a solid chance of the Sensei succeeding on the attack and stun. And the reality is, once that Valkyrie's stunned the fight is over. Her damage goes down, her attack goes down, her AC goes way down, and the party just mops up. Even if she also pre-buffs, it doesn't do much to change the outcome. If you need to, you can keep hammering her in the face with stuns and staggers until the party has dealt enough damage to actually kill her. You've got a 60% chance of effectively ending the encounter during the first round of combat. If he doesn't close it down then Medusa's Wrath combined with his Advice ability are going to give him lots of opportunities to make up for not having Flurry, and plenty of chances to get that stun delivered.
And to be fair, this isn't the best monk tank, I just wanted to roll with the Sensei idea because it was a neat challenge. The thread's also a little vague about what constitutes "high levels". I was thinking like 12+, basically the stuff outside the range of PFS, so this is an area where I would figure the monk and fighter would be pretty on par as far as combat contributions.
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A sensei monk should have a stunning fist dc between 21 and 23 at level 10. Thats a better than fifty percent chance to save or loose for the valkyrie every round.If you hit with the attack you previously selected for your stunning fist.
It's not 50%, because even if you get +13 to attack (+7 BAB, +6 from wisdom [16 + 2 racial + 2 item + 2 level ?]), you only have 25% chance of hitting the foe with your best attack. The 50% becomes 12,5%. Much less reliable. A spellcaster can have a 50% chance to affect each member of a group. Per spell. Several times per encounter. Several encounters per day.
When you consider the DR the valkyrie get, you can't really do damage to it (at least, not with a sensei, who will certainly dump STR). The CMD 39 means it's pretty immune to most guys who uses manoeuvers (before accounting for Fly and/or its sleipnir summon included in the CR).
Actually, I think the monk would die before affecting it with his stunning fist.
at level 10 a sensei has +3 to attack from advice, as well as a possible +2 from mantis wisdom, then add in charge +2, that makes his +13 into a +20. mantis style would also bump the save dc by 2 increasing the likely hood of it working. base of a +6 wisdom, +2 from mantis style, +1/2 level which should be +5 you're looking at a base DC 23, then you have other options to boost that dc even further by applying conditions to reduce saves. bestow curse is a very effective option available to a monk thanks to wolf style, enforcer builds are also a viable option for lowering saves.
Chewing up your remaining feats with Mantis style. Let's say you get at Level 9 Mantis Tormet, and use 2 stunning fists on your attack, if it hits and if he doesn't save, now you have a mob that is staggered and then fatigued. Meh. Nice sure when it hits...but at what cost.
mantis torment gives you a free unarmed strike on top of normal attacks for the round, you need to burn 2 stunning fist attempts for it, and you can still use a third stunning fist attempt for a free effect on a different attack that round.
i hated mantis torment until i reread it.
"Prerequisite: Heal 9 ranks, Improved Unarmed Strike, Mantis Style, Mantis Wisdom, Stunning Fist.
Benefit: You gain one additional Stunning Fist attempt per day. While using Mantis Style, you make an unarmed attack that expends two daily attempts of your Stunning Fist. If you hit, your opponent must succeed at a saving throw against your Stunning Fist or become dazzled and staggered with crippling pain until the start of your next turn, and at that point the opponent becomes fatigued."
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At level 10 a sensei has +3 to attack from advice***
I could be wrong on this, but I'm pretty sure he's only getting a +2 from Advice until level 11.
Hmmm... I went with Snake Style in my build to help compensate for the low hp and open up a few more opportunities for getting off attack, but maybe Mantis is better... Let me revisit that.
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At level 10 a sensei has +3 to attack from advice***I could be wrong on this, but I'm pretty sure he's only getting a +2 from Advice until level 11.
Hmmm... I went with Snake Style in my build to help compensate for the low hp and open up a few more opportunities for getting off attack, but maybe Mantis is better... Let me revisit that.
it is 11, my mistake. so it should only be +19 to attack, still good enough and why doesnt this monk have body wraps or an AOMF?
and i would sacrifice 2 levels of monk and go with unarmed fighter for snake style, it meshes so well with sensei, you would need to open up 4 feats for it to truly be functional though. drop dodge and mobility pick up snake fang, then snake style and combat style mastery to use snake when not making mantis stunning attempts.
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At level 10 a sensei has +3 to attack from advice***I could be wrong on this, but I'm pretty sure he's only getting a +2 from Advice until level 11.
Hmmm... I went with Snake Style in my build to help compensate for the low hp and open up a few more opportunities for getting off attack, but maybe Mantis is better... Let me revisit that.
it is 11, my mistake. so it should only be +19 to attack, still good enough and why doesnt this monk have body wraps or an AOMF?
My monk does have Bodywraps.
+7 BAB + 2 Advice + 8 Wis + 2 Bodywraps = 19, 21 when stunning, for an 80% chance to connect with the hit and a 75% chance of the stun succeeding. Factoring all in that's a 60% chance of just ending the Valkyrie's chances of continuing combat right out the gate. I like it. I hadn't looked at the Sensei "tank" concept much before, focusing more on MoMS, Flowing Monk, or Maneuver Master, but it's pretty solid, especially with that Mantis Style thrown in. I'd probably need to play around with it a bit more and sub in some Qinggong abilities so it's more effective when dealing with ranged opponents.
and i would sacrifice 2 levels of monk and go with unarmed fighter for snake style, it meshes so well with sensei, you would need to open up 4 feats for it to truly be functional though. drop dodge and mobility pick up snake fang, then snake style and combat style mastery to use snake when not making mantis stunning attempts.
Hmmm, I could see that. Dodge and Mobility were really just pre-reqs for Combat Patrol so I could actually tank an area with reactive stuns and ToS strikes, but I could see that working for a more pro-active approach.
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My monk does have Bodywraps.
+7 BAB + 2 Advice + 8 Wis + 2 Bodywraps = 19, 21 when stunning, for an 80% chance to connect with the hit and a 75% chance of the stun succeeding. Factoring all in that's a 60% chance of just ending the Valkyrie's chances of continuing combat right out the gate. I like it. I hadn't looked at the Sensei "tank" concept much before, focusing more on MoMS, Flowing Monk, or Maneuver Master, but it's pretty solid, especially with that Mantis Style thrown in. I'd probably need to play around with it a bit more and sub in some Qinggong abilities so it's more effective when dealing with ranged opponents.
bane baldric would fit really well into this build. knock down your ring or protection down to a +1, and you should have enough to squeeze it in.
bane baldric|
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bane baldric would fit really well into this build. knock down your ring or protection down to a +1, and you should have enough to squeeze it in.
bane baldric
That would be pretty solid. 2+2d6 bonus damage and +2 to hit at the cost of 1 AC is pretty soli. Only equates to a 3% difference in the odds of ending the encounter on the first go, but good over the course of a campaign.
I was thinking the baldric occupied the same slot as the bodywraps and didn't even look at it during the build.
@Ssalarn How are you getting Medusa's Wrath without Gorgon's Fist and without a BaB of +11? I am considering an optimized sensei for pfs (or a half orc fire cleric/oracle with glorious heat) as my next pfs character. Medusa's Wrath would be nice to have but I don't see how you get it.
I'm going to guess monk bonus feat which ignore prerequisites.
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I'm going to guess monk bonus feat which ignore prerequisites.@Ssalarn How are you getting Medusa's Wrath without Gorgon's Fist and without a BaB of +11? I am considering an optimized sensei for pfs (or a half orc fire cleric/oracle with glorious heat) as my next pfs character. Medusa's Wrath would be nice to have but I don't see how you get it.
Yeppers, bonus feat to skip prereqs.