Monks are Better than Fighters at high levels.


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Builds will come later, but from what I can figure at high levels monks will have:

Better AC.
Better Saves.
Better immunities.
Better SR.
Better mobility.
More Attack options.
Better CMB for many maneuvers.
Better CMD.
More Skill points.

The only places where the fighter is better is that a fighter will have:

Higher DPR
1 point of health per level more
1 point higher strength
Higher flat footed AC

To keep things simple I am only looking at CRB material for both classes. When you go outside of that, both classes get neat options. Let's assume for a moment that both of them are equally boosted by non-CRB material.

Anyone disagree? Is the extra DPR worth the flaws the Fighter has at high levels?

Paizo Employee Senior Designer

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As a note, I don't really consider SR to be an actual gain. Given the monk's high saves, SR actually seems like a penalty. I also would need to see some more evidence before I'm convinced the monk will actually have better AC. Fighters with armor training and Dex as a primary or secondary attribute can crank their AC up pretty high


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I think much of the ops premises are built on false assumptions. Mobility? The fighter will presumably be flying 90 in mithril full plate. Better cmb? Under what basis aside from maneuver master. Is the monk better at some stuff? Yes in some grand way that matters in games played by the average player? Not at all.


Ssalarn wrote:
As a note, I don't really consider SR to be an actual gain. Given the monk's high saves, SR actually seems like a penalty. I also would need to see some more evidence before I'm convinced the monk will actually have better AC. Fighters with armor training and Dex as a primary or secondary attribute can crank their AC up pretty high

You can drop the SR. It's a voluntary feature. So monks aren't hurt by it.

I'm going to post a monk build either later today or sometime tomorrow. My estimate is at lvl 20 a monk will have 43 AC or 38 AC. Likewise for a fighter I estimate 39 AC.


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You can drop it as a standard action, which means you can't attack.


Monks aren't honestly all that good with maneuvers. The fact that they get a class feature that 'buffs' their maneuvers is a bit of a trap - they're just as good as a default Fighter with his maneuvers (both use a Full BAB for CMB progression). On the other hand, a fighter with Weapon Training IV and Gloves of the Duelist will have +6 CMB on all maneuver attempts - plus the enhancement bonus of his weapon and any additional bonuses from feats on top of that.


Azten wrote:
You can drop it as a standard action, which means you can't attack.

You can leave it down.


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Marthkus wrote:

Better AC.

Better Saves.
Better immunities.

True, but at least as far as AC is concerned, it's not that huge of a difference.

Marthkus wrote:
Better SR.

As mentioned, not really a bonus.

Marthkus wrote:
Better mobility.

Totally irrelevant. Everyone at the end of the game is flying or teleporting at high levels, and mobility doesn't actually do anything for melee characters unless you can Pounce.

Marthkus wrote:
More Attack options.

Huh? Nobody has attack options in 3rd edition. It's attack over and over until one side wins.

Marthkus wrote:
Better CMB for many maneuvers.

I don't agree that they'll have better CMB, but also note that at high levels, CMB is almost irrelevant, as maneuvers basically stop working mid game anyway (except sometimes, a dedicated grappler or dirty trick specialist can see some use).

Marthkus wrote:
Better CMD.

Again, not necessarily, but I'll accept this premise and say it's not that huge a difference, just like the AC.

Marthkus wrote:
More Skill points.

Absolutely, though skills are mostly irrelevant by mid level, too.

Marthkus wrote:

The only places where the fighter is better is that a fighter will have:

Higher DPR

I think you're missing the significantly higher DRP, which comes from having both much higher damage and much higher attack bonuses. One of the monk's biggest weaknesses is their (in)accuracy, while it's one of the Fighter's greatest strengths.

Marthkus wrote:

1 point of health per level more

1 point higher strength

I'm a little confused how you're getting these numbers. Fighters need Strength and then some minimal points in Con and Dex. Monks need Strength, Dex, Con, and Wis, unless they get an Agile Amulet of Natural Attacks, in which case they have even less hit/damage and will have a harder time with alignment DR. How can that turn into identical Con scores and only a 1 point different strength?

Marthkus wrote:
Anyone disagree? Is the extra DPR worth the flaws the Fighter has at high levels?

The real answer is that both classes suck at high levels and don't really matter. It's like choosing between getting punched in the right kidney or the left kidney. That said, the Fighter contributes much more to a party than the Monk does, because the only thing a martial really contributes in combat is DPR, and the Fighter is significantly better at DPR than the Monk.


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Marthkus wrote:
Azten wrote:
You can drop it as a standard action, which means you can't attack.
You can leave it down.

Leaving it down is also a standard action.

SRD wrote:
A creature can voluntarily lower its spell resistance. Doing so is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Once a creature lowers its resistance, it remains down until the creature's next turn. At the beginning of the creature's next turn, the creature's spell resistance automatically returns unless the creature intentionally keeps it down (also a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity).

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/glossary.html#_spell-resistance


Marthkus wrote:
Azten wrote:
You can drop it as a standard action, which means you can't attack.
You can leave it down.

Nope, you cannot. You are only allowed to drop it in 1 rd increments.

Paizo Employee Senior Designer

Marthkus wrote:
Azten wrote:
You can drop it as a standard action, which means you can't attack.
You can leave it down.

Umm, no you can't.

"A creature can voluntarily lower its spell resistance. Doing so is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Once a creature lowers its resistance, it remains down until the creature's next turn. At the beginning of the creature's next turn, the creature's spell resistance automatically returns unless the creature intentionally keeps it down (also a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity)."

**EDIT** I see several people were all on top of this one....


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It’s all up to taste really. Do you like apples or oranges? Do you want to specialize in killing spellcasters? Play a monk. If you want to be able to stand up to other martials, play a fighter. YMMV.


Valantrix1 wrote:
It’s all up to taste really. Do you like apples or oranges? Do you want to specialize in killing spellcasters? Play a monk. If you want to be able to stand up to other martials, play a fighter. YMMV.

Yes for the most part.

Monks are good against high level casters and can handle high level martials.

Fighters will get wrecked by any high level caster that gets the initiative on them. They wreck martials, but monks don't get wrecked by martials.

I think this makes monks come out ahead at high levels.


I'd like to see these builds. dotting.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

As others have said the biggest problem with the monk in comparison to other martial classes is their inaccuracy keeps their DPR down. Rogues do better than monks despite similar inaccuracies by way of sneak attacks and rogue talents more ably to synergize with martial combat. While a monk can conserve early to mid level gold in terms of mobility, unarmed strikes are either too costly to keep up magically or a wasted set of capabilities if going for a Monk Weapon.

The secondary issue in my mind is the monk has few leveling based options. I felt the class should have been designed in a way similar to Cavalier/Cleric/Oracle/Sorcerer/Wizard with a very important first level pick that flavors the class or been designed similar to Barbarian/Ninja/Rogue with a constant set of choices to make that molds the character to personal taste. The current set up is a very rigid style of monk. This issue is not a capability issue so much as an interest issue.

A while back I came up with a monk redesign that stripped many of the abilities into a "Discipline" choice every even level that is very similar to Ninja and Rogues. Then I gave the monk a wisdom based ki effect that makes Wisdom their offensive stat in addition to bridging the gap in BAB and down playing unarmed strikes to a usable alternative to weapons rather than a capability intended to replace weapons but weaker. My idea has not been playtested and is more than likely unbalanced, but what the monk needs is a numbers based approach to keeping them competitive as martial characters so that making this flavor choice is not unintentionally substandard.

EDIT: As for the monk role of caster disruption, I would agree that at low levels monks are very well tuned to filling that role. That falls behind in the mid to high levels in my opinion. Monks have more defensive capability than warriors or rogues but that difference starts to matter less and less. At higher levels save based spellcasting is comparatively less effective against PCs and BBEGs. The main advantage of spellcasting is controlling the field of combat. The monks natural abilities of movement are largely redundant in the face of magical equipment, and even needs supplementing. In the end, the lower damage output compared to a rogue or ninja makes the monk less capable of disrupting spellcasters around the time that movement speed alone is no longer good enough to catch a spellcaster.


Starbuck_II wrote:
Marthkus wrote:
Azten wrote:
You can drop it as a standard action, which means you can't attack.
You can leave it down.
Nope, you cannot. You are only allowed to drop it in 1 rd increments.

Well that is interesting. SR is still nice for any party where the casters specialize in BC, save or sucks, and damage spells. Heal and Buff bots would dislike the monk.

ASIDE: Looks like the build is coming tomorrow. I want to include items too. Also I will be posting a lvl 20 Monk.

Paizo Employee Senior Designer

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Marthkus wrote:


Yes for the most part.

Monks are good against high level casters and can handle high level martials.

Fighters will get wrecked by any high level caster that gets the initiative on them. They wreck martials, but monks don't get wrecked by martials.

I think this makes monks come out ahead at high levels.

*Cough* Disruptive *cough,cough* Spellbreaker


I'll be interested to see what your 20th level monk looks like. Some years ago I drafted up a 20th level fighter using just core, and some of the numbers were just absolutely sick. AC in the 50s, 8 points of unbeatable DR, 8 attacks a round starting at +42, and so on.

I'm sure if I spent his cash a little more aggressively I could have done more, and I'm even more certain that given some archtypes that exist these days I could make him pretty ridiculous. As it stands though I have a rather difficult time buying that the monk is competitive in most of these respects.

Sovereign Court

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Ninjas are better than Monks and Fighters at high levels! *Go!*


From the top of my head:

Fighter level 20.

10 base + 14 mithral fullplate + 7 dex + 5 amulet of natural armor + 5 ring of protection + 1 ioun stone + 7 heavy shield = 49. You can drop the shield for a two-handed weapon, but your damage gain compared to your wound loss would be somewhat debatable.

This, of course requires statbooks and dex items, but for a dex 14 fighter it's a +4 statbook and +6 gloves of dexterity. Total gear cost: 275.670 gp, well within his theoretical wealth of 880.000 gp according to the wbl table.

Monk level 20.

10 base + 8 bracers of armor + 11 dex + 8 wis + 5 ring of protection + 5 amulet of natural armor + 1 ioun stone = 48. This assumes a pure 20th level monk with no dips.

This assume 2 +4 statbooks, +6 gloves of dexterity, +6 headband of wisdom and 4 stat increases put into dex (since dex is more all-round useful), as well as dex 18 (human bonus) and wis 16. Total cost: 461.000 gp, which is also with the monk's price range.

But the difference of 185.330 goes in the fighter's advantage, and he still need less additional gear to be effective (main melee weapon, backup melee weapon and backup ranged weapon, to be precise).

Of course the monk needs no weapons, but he needs an amulet of natural attack to do any damage at all, and he should have a ranged weapon as well.

In the end the gear cost will most likely level out, but the fighter still has a +5 better base attack and a +5 to hit, damage and CMB with his favored weapon.

Now I'm not saying that the monk is bad, I'm just saying; don't knock the poor fighter with assumptions, he's taking enough badmouthing as it is already :-)


PLus between gloves of dueling and the alternate human fighter ability to level 2 random cmd's I've seen Cmd's in the high 40's low 50's against grapple/trip 50's and 40's sunder disarm and that was at 14th I can't imagine how horrible it would be at 20. I've never seen a monk come close


proftobe wrote:
PLus between gloves of dueling and the alternate human fighter ability to level 2 random cmd's I've seen Cmd's in the high 40's low 50's against grapple/trip 50's and 40's sunder disarm and that was at 14th I can't imagine how horrible it would be at 20. I've never seen a monk come close

Oh yeah, fighter CMDs can get pretty nuts. An NPC human fighter in our party is now level 19 (we're all 20). His CMD is a 43, 47 against disarm and sunder (because best-in-slot, no-brainer item). With human favored class bonus, CMD versus trip is a 62. He's specced partially for being a grapple master, so with weapon training, AoMF, and both Grapple feats, his CMD versus grapple is a 74! Keep in mind, this is without a stellar DEX score and just a +2 ring or protection.

Sczarni

Marthkus wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:
As a note, I don't really consider SR to be an actual gain. Given the monk's high saves, SR actually seems like a penalty. I also would need to see some more evidence before I'm convinced the monk will actually have better AC. Fighters with armor training and Dex as a primary or secondary attribute can crank their AC up pretty high

You can drop the SR. It's a voluntary feature. So monks aren't hurt by it.

I'm going to post a monk build either later today or sometime tomorrow. My estimate is at lvl 20 a monk will have 43 AC or 38 AC. Likewise for a fighter I estimate 39 AC.

A monk benefits from more AC increasing spells and abilities too ;)

I'm glad someone else realized they're a late bloomer! I love Monks.
Don't let all the monk haters get to you!

Sczarni

Since he's posting a Monk build, why doesn't someone post a Fighter build? It seems silly to just argue without builds to go by. Just a general build that can handle everything seems effective.

Then someone needs to create a combat scenario that is either in favor of both builds or not in favor of both builds.

Then the two "builders" can roll their forum initiative, and take turns posting what they will do each round. The combat scenario person can then do the same with his creations!

Come on, let's play out a combat test right here :D


lvl 20 CRB Human Monk (20 point buy, no custom magic items)

Belts: Belt of Physical Perfection +6 (144,000gold)
Body: Robe of Eyes (120,000gold)
Chest: None
Eyes: None
Feet: Winged Boots (16,000gold)
Hands: None
Head: None
Headband: Headband of Inspiring Wisdom +6 (36,000gold)
Neck: Amulet of Mighty Fist +5 (100,000gold)
Ring (up to two): Ring of Protection +5 (50,000gold),Ring of Regeneration (90,000gold)
Shoulders: Cloak of Resistance +5 (25,000gold)
Wrist: Bracers of Armor +8 (64,000gold)
Items: 2 Immovable Rods (10,000gold),Bag of Holding Type II(5,000gold), (+2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con, +2 Wis; Manuals 220,000gold)

Total Wealth: 880,000 gold

Str: 30 = 17 + 5lvl + 6enh + 2inh
Dex: 22 = 14 + 6enh + 2 inh
Con: 22 = 14 + 6enh + 2 inh
Int: 10 = 10
Wis: 22 = 14 + 6enh + 2inh
Cha: 8 = 8

Feats: Defensive Combat Training, Combat Reflexes, Toughness, Power Attack, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Blind-Fight, Lightning Reflexes, Iron Will, Great Fortitude
Monk Feats: Deflect Arrows, Improved Grapple, Improved Trip, Improved Disarm, Medusa’s Wrath, Snatch Arrows

HP: 263 = 3 + 5*lvl + Con*lvl + Favorite class bonus + Toughness = 3 + 13*lvl

AC: 41(45 vs AOOs) = 10 + 6dex + 6wis + 1dodge (+ 4 mobility) + 5def + 8arm + 5monk
Touch AC: 33
Flat footed AC: 40

BAB: 15
CMB: 35(37 for grapple and trip, 33 for disarm) = 20lvl + 10str + 5enh
CMD: 62 = 10 + 20lvl + 10str+6dex + 6wis + 5monk + 5def

Fort: 25 = 12 + 6con + 5res +2feat
Refl: 25 = 12 + 6dex + 5res +2feat
Will: 25(27 vs mind affecting) = 12 + 6wis + 5res +2feat

Base Speed: 30ft (90ft land)

Skills:
Acrobatics: 20ranks + 3class + 6dex (+20 high jump) = +29 (49 for jumping)
Climb: 20ranks + 3class + 10str = +33
Perception: 20ranks + 3class + 6wis + 10comp = +39
Sense Motive: 20ranks +3class + 6wis = +29
Stealth: 20ranks + 3class + 6dex = +29

Defenses:
Improved Evasion, Still Mind, Unlimited Slow Fall, Immune to mundane and magical Disease, Immune to Poison, SR 30, Immune to Aging, 10 DR/Chaotic

Attacks:
Normal Attack: +30 to hit/26 damage
Normal Power Attack: +26 to hit/34 damage
Flurry: +33/+33/+28/+28/+23/+23/+18 || 26 damage
Power Attack Flurry: +27/+27/+22/+22/+17/+17/+12 || 38 damage

Stunning fist (20/day) and Quivering palm(1/day) DC = 26
Stunning fist effect: Stun for 1round, or fatigued, or sickened for 1min, or staggered for 1d6+1 rounds, or permanently blind or deaf, or paralyzed for 1d6+1 rounds
Quivering palm effect: death

Ki pool = 16 = 10(lvl/2) + 6wis
With at least 1 ki point treat fist as magic, cold iron, silver, lawful, and adamantine for overcoming DR and hardness (doesn’t matter much since +5 amulet cuts through most DR)

Ki powers:
1 additional attack per round; 1 point and a swift action
Increase Speed by 20 for 1 round: 1 point and a swift action
+4 dodge bonus for 1 round; 1 point and a swift action
+20 to jump check for 1 round; 1 point and a swift action
Heal Monk level HP; 2 points and a standard action
Teleport 1200ft; 2 points and a move action
Ethereal for 1min; 3 points and a move action

Liberty's Edge

So if we compare to Peter's fighter build we see:

Monk:
+10 to Will Save
Mobility advantage

Fighter:
+10 to AC
Accuracy and Damage advantage

Gee. . . Who would've ever thought. Side note: I find it interesting that both builds would need a natural 20 to perform a combat maneuver against the other. (Though I could be missing a bonus or 2 somewhere, it will still be in that same ball park.)


ShadowcatX wrote:

So if we compare to Peter's fighter build we see:

Monk:
+10 to Will Save
Mobility advantage

Fighter:
+10 to AC
Accuracy and Damage advantage

Gee. . . Who would've ever thought. Side note: I find it interesting that both builds would need a natural 20 to perform a combat maneuver against the other. (Though I could be missing a bonus or 2 somewhere, it will still be in that same ball park.)

Pls post(or have someone else post) a full CRB fighter build before making comparisons.

I estimate the fighter to have 10+9arm+5enh+5def+5nat+6dex = 40 AC.

PLS post a full build to show otherwise.


I'd believe the OP. Anything with a better Will Save and Immunities than a Fighter is better than a Fighter in all aspects. At what point is the Fighter's "superior DPR" going to take place; AFTER he's dead, or AFTER the fight is over?

One spell makes them a drooling clown or a pile of ash. Monks and Paladins don't need to worry since they have immunities to such; although MAD, their class features more than make up for it.

On a side note, Fighters should be considered MAD instead of SAD, since with a low or average Wisdom score they can't do anything in combat.


Marthkus wrote:

Pls post(or have someone else post) a full CRB fighter build before making comparisons.

I estimate the fighter to have 10+9arm+5enh+5def+5nat+6dex = 40 AC.

PLS post a full build to show otherwise.

Peter Steward posted the build in a link above, before you even posted yours so he obviously wasn't simply trying to best you at specific numbers:

Peter's 20th level Fighter


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Kazumetsa Raijin wrote:

Then the two "builders" can roll their forum initiative, and take turns posting what they will do each round. The combat scenario person can then do the same with his creations!

Come on, let's play out a combat test right here :D

We risk having anecdotal evidence if any actual rolling occurred. Once we have to builds we can compare stats, weigh advantages, and then decide what advantages are important.

NOTE: I say no custom magic items, because that opens up things like stacking amulets of mighty fist, gaining plus 5 natural armor and many other things. Likewise the fighter would get his mess of advantages. For the same reason I am using the CRB only is the same reason I am not using custom magic items, only what is listed.


You hooked me, Marthkus. Dot.

EDIT: I hope you can prove Monks are viable, Marth. I'll be rooting for you.


GrenMeera wrote:

Peter Steward posted the build in a link above, before you even posted yours so he obviously wasn't simply trying to best you at specific numbers:

http://dicefreaks.superforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2272

I concede to shield fighter AC being higher. But, his DPR suffers, still better than the monks, but the gap is closer.

His HP ended up lower somehow and he has weapon focus(heavy blades) which is not a thing in core, assuming he meant long sword and the build makes more sense.

That will save though... Mooks with charm person are dangerous to that fighter.

Out of my claims the ones that were wrong were:

Monks having better AC
Fighters Having more Health
Fighters having 1 more strength instead of 2 more strength.

*Atleast as far as those 2 builds are concerned


If your making badass monks you might want to include permanent magic fang... Very cheap, and opens you up to alternate AOMF abilities, or natural armor.


Beopere wrote:
If your making badass monks you might want to include permanent magic fang... Very cheap, and opens you up to alternate AOMF abilities, or natural armor.

Opening up permanent spells seems like a less than ideal idea. Dispels remove them, and fighter benefits as much or more than the monk. It's a confounding factor. I don't want system mastery to be the deciding factor between these builds.


I'd be interested to hear about a core permanent spell for a fighter that is as good or better than a +5 equivalent. Monks are known for being very buffable.


Beopere wrote:
I'd be interested to hear about a core permanent spell for a fighter that is as good or better than a +5 equivalent. Monks are known for being very buffable.

Fair point, but even if we did open up permanent spells, I wouldn't put it on my monk, because of dispel magic and how magic fang does not cut through DR.


Marthkus wrote:
I don't want system mastery to be the deciding factor between these builds.

This seems at tad strange to me. If you want to make a superior character, system mastery is precisely what your challenge is about. If you can build a better monk, it is most likely because you actually master the finer points of the monk, where the guy making the better fighter has a greater system mastery in that regard.

Now I won't try to build your better fighter, I'm more for the Bard myself. But if all of these build threads running rampant on the forum isn't about system mastery; what are they about?


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You know, to us, DPR is only one of many things. The Monk has a better will and reflex save, and with evasion is almost immune. Will is critical, since when you fail a Will save you’re often out of the battle entirely, making your “DPR” moot. Or worse, you’re attacking your allies.

The Monk also has many other cool class features. Now if your game is DPR and only DPR, then those aren’t “cool” but at my table- and every table I have sat at since the Monk came into being- those feature are fun and useful.

It’s odd how some are arguing the SR to be a liability while nigh every build for barbarian includes Superstition.


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DrDeth wrote:
You know, to us, DPR is only one of many things. The Monk has a better will and reflex save, and with evasion is almost immune. Will is critical, since when you fail a Will save you’re often out of the battle entirely, making your “DPR” moot. Or worse, you’re attacking your allies.

Will is sort of critical, but what is more critical is killing the guy using will effects before he gets to use them. Shooting first is all that matters in Rocket Tag.

DrDeth wrote:

It’s odd how some are arguing the SR to be a liability while nigh every build for barbarian includes Superstition.

The Barbarian can literally turn it off and on as a free action, while the monk needs a standard.


mplindustries wrote:
DrDeth wrote:
You know, to us, DPR is only one of many things. The Monk has a better will and reflex save, and with evasion is almost immune. Will is critical, since when you fail a Will save you’re often out of the battle entirely, making your “DPR” moot. Or worse, you’re attacking your allies.
Will is sort of critical, but what is more critical is killing the guy using will effects before he gets to use them. Shooting first is all that matters in Rocket Tag

Which the monk can still do. He just doesn't care if a caster gets the initiative.


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It's worth noting that the fighter I posted was built using 15 point buy to your 20. With an extra five points to spend during character creation he'd best your monk in hit points and could probably also bump up his will save a bit.

Beyond that, lets be clear on some differences in the fighter's favor:

-11 points of AC
-9 points of attack bonus
-Ranged attack that also has a higher attack bonus than the monk
-Flight
-Fighter's attacks bypass significantly more DR qualifiers

Also, I think your hit points are off

6 (Con mod) + 1 (favorite class) +1 (toughness) = 8.
8 + 4.5 (average at level) * 19 = 237.

237 + 8 (max for 1st level) + 8 (con, favorite class, toughness first level) = 253.


Peter Stewart wrote:

It's worth noting that the fighter I posted was built using 15 point buy to your 20. With an extra five points to spend during character creation he'd best your monk in hit points and could probably also bump up his will save a bit.

Beyond that, lets be clear on some differences in the fighter's favor:

-11 points of AC
-9 points of attack bonus
-Ranged attack that also has a higher attack bonus than the monk
-Flight
-Fighter's attacks bypass significantly more DR qualifiers

Also, I think your hit points are off

6 (Con mod) + 1 (favorite class) +1 (toughness) = 8.
8 + 4.5 (average at level) * 19 = 237.

237 + 8 (max for 1st level) + 8 (con, favorite class, toughness first level) = 253.

6 con + 1 favorite class + 1 toughness + 5 (average health for a d8 as per PFS rules, which we find appropriate for our home games) = 13

13*20 = 260.

260 +3 (8 health at first instead of 5) = 263.

Your fighter has 10 point better AC. 51 - 41 = 10 (only a 2 without the shield)

+9 is right

The monk does not need a range attack.
My monk also has flight (when needed)
+5 amulet goes though all DR except epic and /- and slashing and piercing

Feel free to post a 20 point build.

To conclude: Your fighter's AC rocks, but my monk's AC is still comparable to any non-shield fighter and he laughs at spells.


Marthkus wrote:
The monk does not need a range attack.

Going to have to disagree with you on that point. There are going to be times when running (or flying) up and punching the other guy in the face just isn't a good option.


Chengar Qordath wrote:
Marthkus wrote:
The monk does not need a range attack.
Going to have to disagree with you on that point. There are going to be times when running (or flying) up and punching the other guy in the face just isn't a good option.

In those rare times my monk can activate his winged boots and DD door next to the creature all in one round.


For comparison lets look at a Balor

I feel like my monk can almost solo this creature (I think vorpal is the most dangerous thing the balor has for my monk).

On the other hand, I feel like a fighter is just going to get dominated after a few rounds (or the first round).


I'm pretty sure that played intelligently a balor could almost effortlessly overcome both my fighter, your monk, and even most core spellcasting builds without too much trouble. There is too much ground to cover and too many weakness that can be exploited. A fighter likely loses to dominate spams, the monk in melee combat, a cleric in melee combat, and a wizard to implosion or melee. The same is true of a pit fiend, and most other CR 20 outsiders.

This is especially true since he can summon another balor, and through a combination of full attacks and greater dispel magic at will cut your monk into tiny pieces.


Peter Stewart wrote:
I'm pretty sure that played intelligently a balor could almost effortlessly overcome both my fighter, your monk, and even most core spellcasting builds without too much trouble. There is too much ground to cover and too many weakness that can be exploited. A fighter likely loses to dominate spams, the monk in melee combat, a cleric in melee combat, and a wizard to implosion.

My monk and the fighter can go blow for blow in melee. Balor to-hit is actually pretty low. Their best attacks only have a 50% to hit my monk and the only time the balor can hit your fighter is when the vorpal is triggered.

The problem for my monk is that he can only take 2 full-attacks from the balor before the vorpal has a 50% of killing him.

Ideally in a well built group, the balor won't be able to afford to make 2 full attacks against only the monk, hoping to roll a 20.

Conversely, a Balor who mind controls the fighter has probably won the encounter against the party. Which your fighter is dominated 65% of the time by the SLA. So 2 SLAs by the Balor and the fighter is his mind slave. While doing this the Balor can be flying around, casting quickened telekinesis.

My monks only has 1 real weakness against the Balor.


Peter Stewart wrote:
This is especially true since he can summon another balor, and through a combination of full attacks and greater dispel magic at will cut your monk into tiny pieces.

1) He can't summon another balor. He can only summon 1 CR 19 or lower demon (which the best thing he can summon is a MARILITH. Which can do next to nothing against my monk, or your fighter except for his will save).

2) I would LOVE it if he tried to suppress a single magic item for 1d4 rounds every turn. It's his full attack that is dangerous to me(and only because of the vorpal). Dispel magic does next to nothing to me, even the greater version.

Sczarni

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

I'd believe the OP. Anything with a better Will Save and Immunities than a Fighter is better than a Fighter in all aspects. At what point is the Fighter's "superior DPR" going to take place; AFTER he's dead, or AFTER the fight is over?

One spell makes them a drooling clown or a pile of ash. Monks and Paladins don't need to worry since they have immunities to such; although MAD, their class features more than make up for it.

On a side note, Fighters should be considered MAD instead of SAD, since with a low or average Wisdom score they can't do anything in combat.

Everyone forgets this.

Also, just because you're a fighter, does not mean you will get first shot on Initiative. If the opponent does, it could easily spell disaster.

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