The Blessing of Shelyn provides a 2 die bonus to a noncombat Wisdom check. I have two questions related to this and other cards and checks like it.
1. What exactly qualifies as a noncombat check? The siren monster card requires a Wisdom check to defeat, does this qualify as a noncombat check? What would be an example of a combat wisdom check?
2. When a card provides a bonus to a base skill (Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma) can that bonus be applied to a specific skill check (such as melee, divine, or arcane)?
Thanks in advance for the advice.
2. When a card provides a bonus to a base skill (Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma) can that bonus be applied to a specific skill check (such as melee, divine, or arcane)?
Thanks in advance for the advice.
I saw this in a video that Tox posted at BGG. He used his blessing that provides 2 wisdom die to a non-combat check. He had to close a location with a Divine check. Hemwas Seelah who has divine, so he played the card giving her a total of thre dice to use.
My thought was that the Divine skill is different then the wisdom skill, so if the if a check that calls for divine you could not play a blessing to enhance wisdom,, because the blessing only gives the die to a wisdom check not divine. The way i read the rules makes it sound this way.
Would like to know, since it make the game a bit easier then the way I've been playing it.
I've been playing it the way you describe from the video.
I read divine as a kind of sub-skill of Wisdom. On my reading, anything which will boost wisdom will also boost a wisdom derived skill (unless there was some specific exclusion - ie the 'non combat' usage).
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Here is an example:
- The check to defeat a barrier is 8 dexterity or disable.
- You character has a d8 dexterity with no disabled bonus.
- You also have an ally hard in hand that gives you a 1d10 additional die to a disable check.
A thing to note, is that if you do not have a skill, you can always roll a d4 for that check.
Possible choices:
- Perform a dexterity check as d8 with no bonuses
- Play the ally and make a disable check at d4 + d10
If you are playing a card that helps with a disable check, then you are using a disable check, not a dexterity check. Therefore you use a d4 since you have no disable skill.
I made up the cards in this example but there was a post on this earlier. Let me see if I can find it... Here is the link to that discussion. http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q315?Skill-Question
I think the query is if a "grant a second die when you make a dexterity check" card helps you make a disable check, not the other way around.
So imagine you had dexterity:d8, disable:Dexterity +3.
If you play a boon which grants you an extra die on a dexterity check when trying to counter a barrier which can be circumvented by dexterity or disable - is it 2d8 or 2d8+3? (I think the latter).
Here is an example:
- The check to defeat a barrier is 8 dexterity or disable.
- You character has a d8 dexterity with no disabled bonus.
- You also have an ally hard in hand that gives you a 1d10 additional die to a disable check.
A thing to note, is that if you do not have a skill, you can always roll a d4 for that check.
Possible choices:
- Perform a dexterity check as d8 with no bonuses
- Play the ally and make a disable check at d4 + d10
If you are playing a card that helps with a disable check, then you are using a disable check, not a dexterity check. Therefore you use a d4 since you have no disable skill.
I made up the cards in this example but there was a post on this earlier. Let me see if I can find it... Here is the link to that discussion. http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q315?Skill-Question
That's the way I've been playing it, and the reason why I don't think the example of the wisdom blessing working with a divine check will work. The rules seem tighter this way. I think things will start to be more questionable when a card provides dice to a check of a different requirment. Lot's of grey area there.
But, I could be wrong, hopefully Vic, Mike, or Chad will chime in on this. We need some help.
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The problem is how does it work the other way around?
- same check to defeat the barrier, 8 dex or disable
- your character has dex d8 and disable d8+2
- He has an ally in his hand that gives d10 to a dexterity-based check
- He also has a blessing that gives two dice to a dexterity check.(My understanding is that both wordings are used, please correct me if I'm wrong.)
I would think that he can either roll disable as d8+d10+2 or dexterity as 3d8, but not a combined disable of 3d8+d10+2. This would explain the different language used. But I haven't found a definite statement in the rules, and I do not think there has been an official confirmation for that.
Actually the character card reads
Disable: DEXTERITY + 2So it is a dexterity check with a bonus because you have " ranks" in the skill. So any card that gine bonus Dexterity dice will apply and in that exemple you would roll 3d8+1d10+2
The reverse is not true.
The question for me then is:
Is disable a different skill from dexterity that uses the dexterity die, or is disable the same as your dexterity die?
In the first case a card adds die to the dexterity skill (blessing of calistra i think) would not provide it for the disable skill.
In the second case dexterity/disable are one skill, and you can play cards that add die to either. Hence you would be able to play the blessing of calistra to add 2 die to a non- combat dexterity check, where you wouldn't if the skills were separate.
Even though you may lose extra die on a check, I think the rules seem clear if they are seen as separate skills, but maybe it does not make sense intuitively.
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The question for me then is:
Is disable a different skill from dexterity that uses the dexterity die, or is disable the same as your dexterity die?
In the first case a card adds die to the dexterity skill (blessing of calistra i think) would not provide it for the disable skill.
You need to look at the check, not at the skill used.
In my opinion a card that adds to the Dex skill also adds to the Disable skill. However a card that allows you to add dice to a Dex check does not add dice to a Disable check as these are not the same.
Therefore BoC only allows you to add one die to a Disable check.
The question for me then is:
Is disable a different skill from dexterity that uses the dexterity die, or is disable the same as your dexterity die?
In the first case a card adds die to the dexterity skill (blessing of calistra i think) would not provide it for the disable skill.
You need to look at the check, not at the skill used.
In my opinion a card that adds to the Dex skill also adds to the Disable skill. However a card that allows you to add dice to a Dex check does not add dice to a Disable check as these are not the same.
Therefore BoC only allows you to add one die to a Disable check.
I think that's a good way to look at it. I think were saying the same thing, but you crystalized the idea.
I don't know if they changed their minds on this, but when I asked when showing my gf the demo at Paizocon, Mike agreed that it's not clear in the rules, but that he would add two (I think it was roll twice on Int and I was making an Arcane check, but it's a parallel).
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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The skills like disable and arcane don't seem to be intrinsically linked to any particular ability score. Thus the character card telling you that for Ezren Arcane is Int, but for Seoni it's Cha. I've been playing that if your character card lists the skill, it's also whatever stat it goes with. If you take the default d4, it has no listed stat so none of the blessings will give 2 dice.
So, for Merisiel, a Disable check uses her Dex die and is thus also a Dex based check. For anybody else it would be a (nothing) based check of d4.
So if you encounter a card that has, say, wisdom/perception 7 as a target, you can roll:
wisdom, with whatever wisdom bonuses you like
(if you don't have the perception skill):d4, plus any perception bonuses you want to play
(if you have the perception skill):(stat)+skill bonus, plus any bonuses to (stat) or perception that you would like to use, where (stat) is whatever perception is listed with.
I have noticed some monsters have abilities that say for example make a constitution or fortitude check or suffer consequences in this instance I am assuming u would
A.roll against constitution die or
B. roll on stat with fortitude bonus
Meaning if it affects multiple characters and one has fortitude listed under let's say STR then he would roll STR die + fortitude bonus while others just rolled constitution.
Correct
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A card that says it helps you with a Wisdom check would also help a Divine check, because you're rolling your Wisdom die.
A card that says it helps you with a Divine check would not help with any other Wisdom check.
Combat is combat. If a card says "Before the encounter" or "After the encounter," it's not combat.
Mike
So, modifying the base skill modifies the specialty skill but not vise/versa and encountering a monster is combat. Got it, Thanks guys.
@JScotShady - note that encountering a monster is not combat. Attempting a combat check is combat. E.g. if you face the Siren there is a Wisdom check to defeat it. This is NOT combat and any damage from failing the check is not combat damage.
Here is an example:
- The check to defeat a barrier is 8 dexterity or disable.
- You character has a d8 dexterity with no disabled bonus.
- You also have an ally hard in hand that gives you a 1d10 additional die to a disable check.
A thing to note, is that if you do not have a skill, you can always roll a d4 for that check.
Possible choices:
- Perform a dexterity check as d8 with no bonuses
- Play the ally and make a disable check at d4 + d10
If you are playing a card that helps with a disable check, then you are using a disable check, not a dexterity check. Therefore you use a d4 since you have no disable skill.
I made up the cards in this example but there was a post on this earlier. Let me see if I can find it... Here is the link to that discussion. http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q315?Skill-Question
You have no choice.
Look in the Rules. Page 11If your character doesn’t
have ANY of the skills listed for a check, you can still attempt the
check (unless you’re trying to recharge a card; see Recharge on page
15), but your die is a d4. You may use a skill that isn’t listed on your
character card ONLY if another card gives your character that skill.
Because he has DEX he must make a DEX-Check and he can not use the Card.
But if he plays a Card that gives him the Disable SKILL than he can play the Card.
If he has NON of the listet Skills, he can choose to make an untrained Disable-Check and use the Card. (1d4 + 1d10)
I'm not sure if that quote is meant to be read as "(only) if your character doesn't have ..." or "(even) if your character doesn't have...".
I.e. I'm not sure if you can or cannot just choose to use DISABLE (provided you have a card that boosts disable)... but I have been playing as you CAN make this choice.
I look forward to official clarification!
I'm pretty sure you have the choice of what skill you are going to use regardless of whether or not it is listed for you characters skills You just have to sue the appropriate die. If you choose to use a skill you don't have it's a d4. I see no reason why your character would be locked into a skill check, based on the skills on their card. If this were the case Lini would never be able to declare melee in order to use the snake. She would only be able to use strength, unless she played a weapon with the melee trait. But for what i understand she can declare Melee in step one of the check for a d4, and then play the snake in step 3 for for an additional d4.
Basically what i'm saying is that you can always choose an untrained skill for a d4 in step 1 of a check, it is what sets the stage for cards/powers played to enhance the skill in step 3.
Cards that add die to a disable check for instance are meant to be played in step 3 since they add die to a skill that has been declared in step 1 of the check. These cards are not meant to be played during step 1. If they were they would say "for your disable check"' but instead they say "add 1 die to a disable check"
@Tracker1 - I agree with everything you said. But I'm still confused by the line in the rulebook that says "You may use a skill that isn’t listed on your character card ONLY if another card gives your character that skill."
What's that all about?
Can Lini only choose Melee in the earlier step if she's later going to play the Snake? If you don't have a card that gives and/or boosts a given skill can you not choose to test it at all?
The following thread at BGG might shed some light. It's from awhile back, but i did remeber this coming up before.
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1010203/my-rule-question
So... trying to decode Mike's answer into a ruling I come up with:
- the intent of the rulebook is "EVEN if..." (not ONLY if)
- you can always CHOOSE to roll a d4 for any skill check
- powers/boons that interact with that skill then do whatever they say on them, if they 'add a die' they add a d4
Is that the generally accepted interpretation of things?
"If your character doesn’t have any of the skills listed for a check, you can still attempt the check (unless you’re trying to recharge a card; see Recharge on page 15), but your die is a d4. You may use a skill that isn’t listed on your character card only if another card gives your character that skill.
Hmm, interesting discussion. I've read this rule a million times, because it's one that raises lots of questions. But not until I just read you recent comments here h4ppy did I realize there's at least two ways to interpret that sentence!
Like you said, that first "If" could be interpreted as "Only if" or "Even if." The "Only if" interpretation would prevent a character without the Melee skill from ever choosing to use "unskilled" Melee (d4) instead of their Strength, because all characters have Strength. The more and more I read this rule now, the more and more the language suggests to me the "Only if" interpretation.
But Mike's comment here, and Vic's comments here and here, definitely suggest the "Even if" interpretation is the correct one.
Ok, here's an interesting thought. I'm not sure if any of my reasoning that's about to follow is correct, but humor me for a second.
Mike made an interesting comment here that I never quite understood.
"Another card" (in this case Night Watch) is *giving* the Ezren card the Perception skill. It's just not changing the die he rolls from the "unskilled" level of d4. Despite his Wisdom being a d8, he doesn't get to use his Wisdom die, just that lowly d4.
The part I never understood is how Night Watch is *giving* Ezren the Perception skill. I always kind of thought of him as already "having" (in some sense) the Perception skill, it's just that it's untrained and therefore set at d4. Also, the language on Night Watch also doesn't really say anything specific about *giving* a character the Perception skill.
But then I realized that maybe that's what this mysterious line the rulebook is referring to (the one everyone always seems to ask about):
You may use a skill that isn’t listed on your character card only if another card *gives* your character that skill.
In Mike's quote above, he was he even directly referring to this line from the rulebook, so it leads me to believe that he was deliberately using "give" in the same sense that the rulebook is.
So what could this possibly mean?
Let's say Ezren encounters a Trapped Passageway (Check to defeat: Wisdom/Perception/Dexterity/Acrobatics 9). Which skills is Ezren eligible to use to attempt to defeat the check?
This rule in the rulebook suggests he can pick any of the four (Wis, Perception, Dex, or Acrobatics).
“Check to Defeat” and “Check to Acquire” are followed by one or more skills; you may use *any* of the skills listed for your check. (For example, if a check lists Dexterity, Disable, Strength, and Melee, you may choose to use Dexterity, Disable, Strength, or Melee to attempt your check.)
But then this sentence seems to contradict that, or at least put constraints on that:
You may use a skill that isn’t listed on your character card only if another card *gives* your character that skill.
So let's take that rule very literally for a second. Neither Perception or Acrobatics are listed on Ezren's card, so that would mean Ezren can't choose those skills for the check. He's stuck with either Wis or Dex.
Now let's go back to Mike's statement about Night Watch *giving* Ezren the Perception skill. So this could mean that the only reason Ezren is able to choose Perception in his example is *because* he is going to play Night Watch (thus granting him the Perception skill). In other words, this could mean Ezren cannot choose to use Perception (roll a straight d4) *unless* he's going to play a card that *gives* him that option (i.e. Night Watch).
Now let's assume Ezren encounters a barrier that just has Check to defeat: Perception 9. Again, in this case, Ezren doesn't have the Perception skill. But maybe it's this rule in the rulebook that allows him to play a d4, *without* another card *giving* him the Perception skill:
If your character doesn’t have any of the skills listed for a check, you can still attempt the check, but your die is a d4.
In this case, Ezren doesn't have *any* of the skills listed to defeat the barrier, so maybe it's only in this case that he's allow to use a d4 Perception skill without playing a card that "gives him" Perception.
Not sure if I articulated that very well. It's a bit weird, but I believe this interpretation of the rules is consistent with the rulebook as written. It also doesn't seem to directly contradict anything Mike or Vic has said in the forums (at least that I have been able to find so far). What do you guys think?
It has been explained elsewhere but i can't recall where, pretty sure Vic has confirmed it. You can only use the default D4 die if you have no other listed skill eligible for the check.
A boon, power or other character's power can give you that skill.
You can't decide to use the default d4 because you have a boon that aids that skill when you have a different listed skill available.
It has been explained elsewhere but i can't recall where, pretty sure Vic has confirmed it. You can only use the default D4 die if you have no other listed skill eligible for the check.
A boon, power or other character's power can give you that skill.
You can't decide to use the default d4 because you have a boon that aids that skill when you have a different listed skill available.
Hmm, I must have missed that post. Would love to see a link to it if you can find it, please!
@St@rm@n: Do you mean this post by Vic or something else?
That just says you can have a default , it may have been a Mike one which we know is officially unofficial.
Ahhh!! Now I'm really confused. I just discovered this other post from Mike:
Cards give their traits to checks using them*, so any character using a weapon with the Ranged trait is making a Ranged combat check. Lem doesn't have a Ranged die, so he doesn't get a Ranged bonus to his Dexterity check. But he does get to use his Dexterity die and the Archer's power.
The counterexample is the Night Watch. The Night Watch does not have a Perception trait. It allows a Perception check to be made, but it doesn't give *you* the Perception skill. Ezren has to use his d4 for the roll, but gets the Perception bonus from the Night Watch.
Compare that to Mike's other post.
"Another card" (in this case Night Watch) is giving the Ezren card the Perception skill. It's just not changing the die he rolls from the "unskilled" level of d4. Despite his Wisdom being a d8, he doesn't get to use his Wisdom die, just that lowly d4.
Those two bolded parts seem to contradict one another. Does Night Watch give Ezren the Perception skill or not?
I've always thought that what Mike meant in that second post was "it can help you do perception" - not "it's adding perception to your check".
I think my use of the phrase "giving Ezren the Perception skill" is a little kludgy. Let me work on clarifying that.
Reptilian Wrote:
There's a phrase in the rulebook that's confusing me a bit. Maybe it's because English is a second language to me ... It has already come up in a few other threads but I'd really like a clear ruling on it.
Rulebook page 11 wrote:
If your character doesn’t have any of the skills listed for a check, you can still attempt the check (unless you’re trying to recharge a card; see Recharge on page 15), but your die is a d4.
Does the phrase means:
1. You can only do this if you have none of the skill listed.
or
2. You can do this with any of the listed skills that you don't have.
At first, I thought 1 was the right call but that makes a lot of cards not very useful.
For example, let's say Seelah (Wisdom 1d8, no Perception skill) has a Night Watch (Recharge this card to add 1d10 to your Perception check) and encounters something that calls for a Wisdom or Perception check. If option 1 is the right one, she could only roll her Wisdom (1d8). If option 2 is the right one, she has the choice to either roll her Wisdom (1d8) or play her Night Watch and roll 1d4+1d10.
Mike Selinker
You have it right. You can choose a skill you don't have if you think the lower die roll is worth it for some reason, such as if another card helps you a lot with the skill you don't have.
Me:
I think we have our answer. Even if you have another skill listed on your character card you can still choose an untrained one that you do not have for a check.
Me:
I think we have our answer. Even if you have another skill listed on your character card you can still choose an untrained one that you do not have for a check.
Thanks for linking that thread, Tracker1, and thanks for the response, Mike.