Our Ezren player is a combo master. He has built his deck in such a way that he always seems to be chaining actions over and over. Excellent thematic feel.
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So I just realized that the Loot card in the first pack is an Item and its basically armor. In our party Sajan (played by me) grabbed that Item. So now I won't be able to defend myself with it in situations where I also used an Item to boost my check. That's a bummer. Sajan loves items - nerf :(
Wait wait.... What if I have magic armor. Are you saying I can't defend myself with magic armor because the thing that hit ME is immune to magic?
I guess so. I should have been more specific. I guess what I would have preferred is that those cards you mention get errata that indicates they are NOT combat damage. To be blocking a ghost with a shield is just, well, nonsense.
So one thing here still confuses me. We say that all damage caused by failing a check with a monster is now combat damage. Unless the monster says otherwise. So, if a monster doesn't specify (Ghost), it can be blocked by cards that stop combat damage or all damage. If it does specify, it can only be blocked by cards that block that SPECIFIC type and NOT combat damage. So now we end up with a situation where a breast plate can stop a ghost but can't stop acid. That doesn't make thematic sense.
Mike - great stuff. First read, I would say item 7 needs a little more added to it. Perhaps say specifically, in some way, that rolling [x] for a check means "use this skill". Its there in item 7, I feel it could just be made even more clear. We still see 1x10^1B threads on BGG centered around Sajan's Dexterity combat. Thanks again for all your passion and your drive for perfection. You have created a special game and I hope its obvious to you that the massive amount of wailing and gnashing of teeth is an indication that your game is super popular.
I've always thought that what Mike meant in that second post was "it can help you do perception" - not "it's adding perception to your check".
Yeah - but he was talking about a way to get better than that, like Erastils. My advice - fist fight your friends for them :)
It might be fairly clear to those of us who have been active in these threads and those on BGG, but I still think there is a high level of confusion out there. Its upsetting to think about the army of people that have this game at home and don't know about this forum or BGG or even the FAQ, and are playing the game entirely wrong. Once you have the rules all squared away, PACG is one of the most fun and rewarding game experiences I have had in a long while. I can only imagine how magnified this fear is for the designers and care takers of the game.
What would really help is to have things like weapons and attack spells that are combat "initializers" have an indicator on the card that told the player "This is a step 1 card - its setting the skill for the check". However, its far too late for that at this point...
It does, based on what we have heard so far. So again, I keep using the example of a potential weapon that is based on Dexterity that gives Melee. Sajan needs that :) Starman up above was talking about an ally playing a weapon on your check though, which isn't allowed. At least, I think that is what he was saying...
You can't add a weapon or an attack spell to another persons check, however.
Yeah - don't assume it's melee or ranged. That's not how it works. At all. For example, you might cast a spell for your check and then your combat check is Arcane. It's neither ranged or melee.
Snake is add a d4 to a melee based combat check. So, unless you were rolling melee to fight unarmed, or played a card that made your check melee, you couldn't play it. This is why I was asking if there was a card that added melee but was played on a dexterity check. Hypothetical example: Sajan. Rolling dexterity for an unarmed combat check. Plays the following card: Item: "For your dexterity check add 1d10+1". Traits: Melee. I think if that card existed, you could play that, which would give you melee, and then you could play the Snake. But I don't think you could just put a Snake with Sajan otherwise.
This clears up a lot in regard to how traits interact with the check. A lot of these corner cases haven't come up in our campaign - but it's great to know. Thanks for the clarifications Mike.
Most of those are strength/melee check weapons though. I should have been more clear. Do we have one that has you roll something other than strength/melee but has the melee trait? This to me is the same thing as the Ranged/Dexterity question. - which lends itself to a yes answer. We need an official weigh in, however.
Ok - just read the Traits thread and I now see why you have this question. Basically, you are saying, if a weapon or attack spell had the melee trait, but I was rolling, for example, my dexterity skill, could I use a boon that made a melee combat check better? Hypothetical - Brass Knuckles of Fury - For your combat roll your Dexterity die + 1d4. Traits - Melee, Basic. I play that in Step 1, can I play the Soldier in Step 3? Based on Mikes feedback, yes? Do we have a Melee trait anywhere? I for sure don't think you get an implied melee trait by just not having a weapon.
It's a. In my opinion. Edit...wait a second...,
:) I wouldn't say going at it. I would just say "trying to learn the rules together". My wife, who is my primary gaming partner also has issues with wishy washy rules as she reads them very literally. So I don't mind this :)
We should use actual examples. If you have some - list them - and we can see if we agree. And you are correct, the ruling that Sajan's power means "use Dexterity" - that was the thread we used to understand all of this. The key is the phrase "for your combat..." That's on Sajan's power and it's also on all the weapons and attack spells. Aha! So, therefore, where you see X die and that "for your combat..." - it means "Use X skill". Skills have bonuses, dice don't. So, roll your Dexterity die means "Use your Dexterity Skill, with bonuses" The problem really boils down to the overloaded usage of the word "die". For someone that is a literal rules reader, this is a nightmare. And it's obvious that what you are looking for is a firm, official, ruling. I'm sure they will give you one. If you look at Vic's posts and posts from Chad over at BGG - they are clearly trying to figure out how to adjust this.
Ok - understood. Can you explain specifically which part of this is at odds with what we were discussing earlier? It's quite possible that we have this wrong - but we have enough feedback from both Mike and Vic that we are doing this correctly. For example, we know for sure that Sajan's power means he does a dexterity check, including bonuses, for unarmed combat.
Lightning touch would be: Arcane + 2d4 - which is....
And you are making an Arcane check with the Magic, Arcane, Attack, Electricity, and Basic traits. So now - to continue past step 1 of the check, let's say we will throw in a Blessing of Pharasma during Step 3 of the check. This adds two dice when playing a spell, which we did. So, this adds 2d12, since this is our base die for our Arcane skill. So now we have: 3d12 + 2d4 + 2 We could have also played a blessing that helps an arcane based combat check. And to further add - to follow up on the point that QuantumNinja just made - we could also throw in a hypothetical item that added a die to an Intelligence check as our Arcane skill is based on Intelligence.
Two competing threads! Can we merge this one and the BGG one? Jerry - nobody is going back on what we originally thought. H4ppy is just trying to find a clearer way to explain it. When you make a combat check - there is no such thing as a combat skill. You need to decide what skill you are going to use to perform the check. By default, this is strength or melee. You can play a single card or power that lets you change this. These cards are usually obvious, they use wording like 'for your combat check...' or have an attack trait. These cards change the default of strength/melee to whatever the card says. Ignore the word die on these cards, as its apt to confuse you. Now, you have your skill set. Lets say its Sajan and after using his power, you are now checking with Dexterity. This means you have a d10+2. That's where we start. Now, we can play modifiers. Things like blessings and spells and items let us add some more dice. So, in this case, some more d10s. NOT more + 2 - as that is our skill modifier. This is all the same explanation as h4ppy originally laid out and Mike confirmed. Its just that folks explain it different ways and I'm not sure everyone has quite internalized it yet. Unless I am missing something myself.
I think C. I think that word unmodified just means "normal strength, without THIS modifier." Do we have any other cards that use this language in a different context?
The way to think of it is that each check has a type. For combat, the default type is Strength/Melee. Meaning you punch guys. If there wasn't a default type, you couldn't fight. You can play weapons and spells and items to switch that type. A bow switches it to ranged; a force missile, arcane, etc. Sajan's power is just like one of these cards, switching the type to Dexterity. Here is the part of the rules where this is, sort of, spelled out:
Yes. That's how I understand it.
Awesome. Because he is pretty much on the same exact page as me. Check out my post in the Amulets of Fists thread where I'm trying to find my way to a similar explanation.
Personally, I feel the issue is with the word die. Once again, that word is causing confusion. Why couldn't the power just be "you can use dexterity for combat checks". To me, there is a difference between the dexterity skill and the dexterity die. But perhaps that's where I am wrong.No, I think you've hit the nail on the head. It's unfortunate that the word 'die' is overloaded like that, but it's usually easy enough to figure out what is intended from the context (basically when a card talks about 'adding' a die, then it's the actual die without modifiers, when it talks about 'rolling' the die, then it's the skill with modifiers.) Totally agree. See my follow up.
So to follow up on this thought. It seems to me that the real problem is the difference between when the word die is used in the context of a CHECK and when it is used in the context of ADDING to the check. We have to reconcile the following: 1) Vic says above that "use your dexterity die" means "use your dexterity skill". You are now doing a dexterity based combat check. That also means that using a Spell such as Force Missile, which tells you to use your Arcane die for the CHECK, also means that you are now doing an Arcane combat check. 2) We have also confirmed earlier that when using a blessing that ADDS to your check, you do NOT get multiples of your skill bonus. Therefore, you are not using your skill, you are just adding a die to the skill you already set in the first step. So, to summarize. During the "determine the skill you are using" step, if you see the word die on the power or the card you are using, take it to literally mean "this is the type of check you are doing now". During the play cards/use powers step, the word die here literally means "die". Simply add or subtract from the base skill die you are using. If this is accurate, it clears up a ton of confusion I've had. I also think we could close the "what is a die" thread. Personally, I feel that cards that you play during step 1 of the check (weapons, spells, etc) and powers your character has, should never use the word "die". They should, instead, say "skill". Like I said in my post above, how much easier would this have been to understand if Sajan's power was simply "You can use Dexterity for Combat Checks". Done. Now everyone knows that its a Dexterity based check and Blessings that change Dexterity are the ones you want to use. Similarly, reword force missing to say "For your Combat Check, discard this card to use your Arcane skill + 2d4....", and now everyone knows that using Force Missile means you are now doing an Arcane check.
Personally, I feel the issue is with the word die. Once again, that word is causing confusion. Why couldn't the power just be "you can use dexterity for combat checks". To me, there is a difference between the dexterity skill and the dexterity die. But perhaps that's where I am wrong.
Don't change the box. Seriously. I wish other card games of this type (I'm looking at you LoTR LCG) did a box like this. Long slots with card dividers just adds a ton of setup time. If that's the style you want, remove the insert, get some foam, and print out some dividers. |