Using skills you don't have


Rules Questions and Gameplay Discussion


For example:

Valeros flips a card for a pit trap, which has a WIS or Perception to defeat. In his hand, Valeros has the ally that gives an extra 1d10 to a Perception check. Now, Valeros doesn't have Perception. Can Valeros use that ally to add that modifier to his WIS check? Or does that particular ability on that card not have any effect unless played by a character with the Perception skill?

Forgive me if this is addressed in the rules somewhere, as I don't have the game on me, having let a friend try it out for a few days.


I'm pretty sure you can attempt a check with no skill but you have to use the d4 dice so to answer the question you would roll 1d10 and 1d4. The 1d10 coming from the card.


Yes, as raven614 says: you always have a minimum of d4 in any skill.
Valeros may not have that much Wisdom, but he isn't completely ignorant!


martryn wrote:

For example:

Valeros flips a card for a pit trap, which has a WIS or Perception to defeat. In his hand, Valeros has the ally that gives an extra 1d10 to a Perception check. Now, Valeros doesn't have Perception. Can Valeros use that ally to add that modifier to his WIS check? Or does that particular ability on that card not have any effect unless played by a character with the Perception skill?

Forgive me if this is addressed in the rules somewhere, as I don't have the game on me, having let a friend try it out for a few days.

I say no. Look in the Rules. Page 11

If your character doesn’t
have ANY of the skills listed for a check, you can still attempt the
check (unless you’re trying to recharge a card; see Recharge on page
15), but your die is a d4. You may use a skill that isn’t listed on your
character card ONLY if another card gives your character that skill.

Because he has WIS he must make a WIS-Check and he can not ust the Card.
But if he plays a Card that gives him the Perception SKILL than he can play the Card.

If he has non of the listet Skills, he can choose to make an untrained Perception-Check and use the Card. (1d4 + 1d10)


magicm wrote:
martryn wrote:

For example:

Valeros flips a card for a pit trap, which has a WIS or Perception to defeat. In his hand, Valeros has the ally that gives an extra 1d10 to a Perception check. Now, Valeros doesn't have Perception. Can Valeros use that ally to add that modifier to his WIS check? Or does that particular ability on that card not have any effect unless played by a character with the Perception skill?

Forgive me if this is addressed in the rules somewhere, as I don't have the game on me, having let a friend try it out for a few days.

I say no. Look in the Rules. Page 11

If your character doesn’t
have ANY of the skills listed for a check, you can still attempt the
check (unless you’re trying to recharge a card; see Recharge on page
15), but your die is a d4. You may use a skill that isn’t listed on your
character card ONLY if another card gives your character that skill.

Because he has WIS he must make a WIS-Check and he can not ust the Card.
But if he plays a Card that gives him the Perception SKILL than he can play the Card.

If he dosent have WIS AND Perception he can use the Card. (1d4 + 1d10)

In that case, the ally does give him Perception, making it legal for him to either choose Wis (in which case the ally bonus cannot apply) or Perception (a d4 + d10 w the ally).

However, I think his main question was more, if the character does not have the particular trait, can I use the stat that trait is supposely associated with? The answer, as you pointed out, is no. Although most traits are more or less associated with a single stat, some are not. Arcane is the only example I can think of but there may be more in the future.


I think he is talking about the Night Watch.


You are right!
I was assuming that the Ally would give Valeros that skill, but that isn't the case.

(You may use a skill that isn't listed on your character card only if another card gives your character that skill)


So, in the future, d4+d10. That makes certain cards really... not that good.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

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Zentaur wrote:
....if the character does not have the particular trait, can I use the stat that trait is supposely associated with? The answer, as you pointed out, is no. Although most traits are more or less associated with a single stat, some are not. Arcane is the only example I can think of but there may be more in the future.

Correct—we never want anyone to have to remember what the associated skill is for a skill that they don't have. Which is is say, if you don't have Perception, the fact that it's *not* listed under Wisdom on your card just isn't something you ever need to know. All you need to know is that if you don't have it, it's a d4 for you.


I couldn't find in the rulebook where it clearly states that a card, such as an Ally, that grants a bonus to a skill that you do not possess, gives you that skill for that check. Can anyone please tell me where this is? Much appreciated.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

It doesn't give you that skill. If it did, then you would roll your full stat die for the check. Instead it just modifies that roll, but you have to use the default 1d4 for the stat die.

So if you are playing an Ally that gives 1d10 to a Perception check and you don't have the skill Perception, you can still attempt the check, but no matter what your WIS die is, the base would be 1d4 + 1d10.

Now, this does not work for all Allies. The Archer for example adds to the Ranged Combat check. But if you don't have something like a Shortbow to start the check off as a Ranged Combat check, you can't use the Archer.


TClifford wrote:
So if you are playing an Ally that gives 1d10 to a Perception check and you don't have the skill Perception, you can still attempt the check, but no matter what your WIS die is, the base would be 1d4 + 1d10.

Right, but as magicm pointed out, if the card calling for the check says you can use Perception OR Wisdom (or any other base stat but it's usually wisdom with perception) you have to use Wisdom if you don't have Perception. And since you're making a Wisdom check, you can't use a Night Watch or a Dog to help you. This is all IMO, of course.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

No, you can use an Ally to make a Perception check, but you don't have the skill do the base die would be 1d4 not your WIS die. Otherwise Allies like the Night Watch and Dog would be pointless since only Merisel has the Perception skill.

Now, if you choose to just use your WIS die, then yea, you can't use those Allies for the check.


Vic Wertz wrote:
Correct—we never want anyone to have to remember what the associated skill is for a skill that they don't have. Which is is say, if you don't have Perception, the fact that it's *not* listed under Wisdom on your card just isn't something you ever need to know. All you need to know is that if you don't have it, it's a d4 for you.

This has been addressed a few times and the rulebook has been updated. The current Skull & Shackles rulebook reads:

Skull & Shackles rulebook, p.12 wrote:
Each check to defeat or acquire a card lists one or more skills; you may choose any of the listed skills for your check. For example, if a check lists Dexterity, Disable, Strength, and Melee, you may use any one of those skills to attempt your check. Even if your character doesn’t have any of the skills listed for a check, you can still attempt the check, but your die is a d4.

I believe the common wisdom on the messageboards is that if you don't have a skill, you can choose it anyway and roll a d4. But "even if" in the sentence above seems to make lacking one of the listed skills a condition for rolling the check unskilled and using a d4.

I just had Alahazra encounter the Harpoon Trap (Dexterity/Acrobatics 9 or Disable 6). Alahazra has d4 in Dexterity and doesn't have the Disable skill. What I read from the section of the rulebook quoted above is that because she has Dexterity and Dexterity is a skill listed on the Harpoon Trap, she must take it and can't consider using Disable (and benefiting from the easier difficulty) for a d4. What do you think?

Grand Lodge

I'd think she could attempt the Disable with her d4s.

That way if you played a card that would add 1d6 to a Disable check, she'd have 1d4 + 1d6 even though she doesn't have that skill.


I don't think that last sentence ("Even if ...") means you only get to choose a skill you don't have if you have none of the skills listed. The first sentence is clear - pick any skill listed for your check, then see what your base die will be.

Grand Lodge

jones314 wrote:
I don't think that last sentence ("Even if ...") means you only get to choose a skill you don't have if you have none of the skills listed. The first sentence is clear - pick any skill listed for your check, then see what your base die will be.

That last sentence is saying that you can choose to attempt a skill check that you don't have and you'd get a base d4. I'm not sure why you added "only" to your (first) sentence.


The first step of encountering a card with multiple-choice checks to defeat (this includes things such as Dexterity/Acrobatics 9) is to choose which check you're making.

If a card's check to defeat says Dexterity/Acrobatics 9 or Disable 6, then your first step is to choose whether you're going to attempt to make the Dexterity 9, the Acrobatics 9, or the Disable 6.

This is what decides the things from then on.

Even if you don't have Acrobatics or Disable, you can still choose to attempt that check. That is covered by the "...; you may choose any of the listed skills for your check." bit.

The "Even If" part is there to reinforce that, because you may come across something that simply has a check to defeat of "Disable 4," which most characters do not have, and instead of saying "well, okay, I don't have it, so I auto-fail," it's reminding you that even if you don't have a skill, you can still choose to make that check.

If you read the Ally in question, it says that it adds a certain amount of dice to your check, not your skill. If you choose to make a Disable check and have an ally that adds to your Disable check, then that ally can be used, whether your character has the disable skill listed on the character card or not, as long as you are making a Disable check.

If you happen to find an ally that adds to your Disable skill (I don't know that there are any for the following reason), and you don't have the Disable skill, then that ally is useless to you, as you don't have the skill for it to add to.

If you can actually find an ally that actually adds bonuses to a skill itself as opposed to adding to a skill check, that might be something to discuss with Mike/Vic/Etc.

Grand Lodge

What Ally? We weren't talking about an ally.

I simply said a card that added to a Disable check ... in general. Not specifics. I was saying that if he attempted a Disable check (6) and he had in his hand a card that added 1d6 to a Disable check, he'd have his base die 1d4 plus a 1d6 to attempt the check.


Vic Wertz wrote:
...Which is is say, if you don't have Perception, the fact that it's *not* listed under Wisdom on your card just isn't something you ever need to know. All you need to know is that if you don't have it, it's a d4 for you.

Hi Vic and thanks for taking the time with all our questions. However there is still a bit of confusion coming from the "You may use a skill that isn’t listed on your character card ONLY if another card gives your character that skill."

Two options:

A) Either you can always roll 1d4, in which case the ONLY part of the above sentence should be removed.

Or

B) It should be added something like : "If a card is played that modifies your skill for a specific check, it gives you that skill".
Else how can you get the skill?

Say I encounter a disable 6 check and I don't have disable on my character card. I have a Blessing of the Gods and a cards that gives me +1d6 on my disable check.

In case A) I can play the blessing and roll 2d4 to win the check because I automatically have 1d4 in disable.

In case B) I cannot do that. I must play my card that gives me the skill +1d6 and then I roll 1d4+1d6 (or 2d4+1d6 if I also play the blessing).

So A or B? In both cases a FAQ may be needed.


If it helps, you can think of every character having a d4 in every skill not listed on their character sheet. In the Night Watch example that starts this thread, the Night Watch isn't giving you Perception when it adds its d10, it's augmenting the d4 you're already rolling for perception.

Grand Lodge

There are powers that will give you a skill. So if a power feat give you a Craft: Charisma +1 then when you attain that power feat, you get your Charisma Die (let's say d12) plus any Charisma skill bonus (let's say +2) and your new Craft bonus (+1).

So previous to getting the power feat, if it asked you to do a Craft check, you'd only have a d4 since you do not have that skill. After the power feat, you'd have a 1d12 + 2 + 1 for your Craft.

And if there is a card that gives you that skill, then it should also tell you what that skill is based upon (Strength, Dexterity, Intelligence, etc.)

Frencois wrote:
Hi Vic and thanks for taking the time with all our questions. However there is still a bit of confusion coming from the "You may use a skill that isn’t listed on your character card ONLY if another card gives your character that skill."

Where are you getting the ONLY from? That's not what Vic says. What he says if that if you do not have a specific skill like Perception, you will be able to use a d4 for that check.

A) Yes, you can always use a d4.
B) What it is talking about is that if something gives your character a skill then the check would be modified accordingly. So if a card gives you Perception: Wisdom +1 then you'd be able to use your Wisdom die plus any Wisdom bonuses you had plus the +1 for a Perception check.

Frencois wrote:

Say I encounter a disable 6 check and I don't have disable on my character card. I have a Blessing of the Gods and a cards that gives me +1d6 on my disable check.

In case A) I can play the blessing and roll 2d4 to win the check because I automatically have 1d4 in disable.

In case B) I cannot do that. I must play my card that gives me the skill +1d6 and then I roll 1d4+1d6 (or 2d4+1d6 if I also play the blessing).

So A or B? In both cases a FAQ may be needed.

Case A) The card gives you 1d6 on your Disable check. If it doesn't add specifically to your Disable skill then you can use it. You do not have the skill. So playing a blessing and the card you described would be 2d4 + 1d6.

Case B) As in A, if the card adds to the check and not references the Skill, then you could use the 1d6.


Frencois wrote:
However there is still a bit of confusion coming from the "You may use a skill that isn’t listed on your character card ONLY if another card gives your character that skill."

Actually, I revived a post that was more than a year old. Maybe I shouldn't have done that. The part confusing you is no longer present in the current version of the rulebook.

Firedale2002 wrote:

The first step of encountering a card with multiple-choice checks to defeat (this includes things such as Dexterity/Acrobatics 9) is to choose which check you're making.

If a card's check to defeat says Dexterity/Acrobatics 9 or Disable 6, then your first step is to choose whether you're going to attempt to make the Dexterity 9, the Acrobatics 9, or the Disable 6.

This is what decides the things from then on.

Even if you don't have Acrobatics or Disable, you can still choose to attempt that check. That is covered by the "...; you may choose any of the listed skills for your check." bit.

The "Even If" part is there to reinforce that, because you may come across something that simply has a check to defeat of "Disable 4," which most characters do not have, and instead of saying "well, okay, I don't have it, so I auto-fail," it's reminding you that even if you don't have a skill, you can still choose to make that check.

Yes, I see your point and I think this is what I was looking for when asking my question. I was trying to understand the meaning of "even if" but the important part is "you may choose any" two sentences before.

Scarab Sages

That's interesting, I didn't know that. So here's something that I wanted to check on, because it came up in our last game.

The Rogue (I can't spell her name), does not have the ranged skill. If she throws a throwing dagger (using her ranged or dexterity die), is she making a ranged attack because the dagger has the ranged trait? If so, can she use the archer ally to add a d6 (because she is making a ranged attack?) I thought she could, but since she doesn't have the ranged skill explicitly, it looks like maybe she can't.


Yes, that is the reason the cards that add to a check are worded that way. You are making a ranged check when you use your ranged skill or when you play a card to determine which skill you are using that has the ranged trait or when a card tells you to add the ranged trait to your check. Any one of the three makes it a ranged check.

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