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Campaign management has said that they would be willing to revisit the rules on what constitutes proof of ownership for Additional Resources.
- One proposal has been to allow players access to the PRD.
- Another proposal has been to begin including unique codes in printed material to allow owners to register their books.
- Another is to have a GM sign a chronicle sheet acknowledging that the player owns the source in question.
I wanted to start a new thread to start collecting more ideas for this. In the spirit of true brainstorming, anything goes, there are no bad ideas, etc. However, I would like to set some ground rules:
1) Additional Resources will still require players to own the material (in the interest of keeping Paizo, and therefore PFS, afloat)
2) Players will still be responsible for having an official copy (digital, print, photocopy, etc.) of the Additional Resources on hand (to allow GMs the ability to review the material)
EDIT:
Not that I have any control over this thread, but I'd prefer if people stick to constructive criticism here. If you see a problem with someone else's proposal, modify it or present your own.
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I am totally against any revision to the rules. If you want to use something from a book you must own it and bring it.
That system is flawless and there is no argument that will sway my opinion way from it.
So your input on a thread dedicated entirely to brainstorming alternatives is probably not particularly helpful, then.
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And I'll kick things off:
For a bunch of reasons, I'd like to see an official "Chronicle 0" that captures characters' initial equipment and purchases. It would also be a good place to list any Additional Resources used in character creation.
The sheet could have something like this:
Additional Resource:.......Source:........................Proof of Ownership:
____________________ __________________ ___________________
Where the player would fill out the first two fields, present any sources listed to their GM, and the GM would sign off that physical (or digital) copies were present.
Additional Feats or items purchased would be similarly captured on subsequent chronicle sheets. Players would only need to bring physical copies once for each Additional Resource.
The biggest issue I see with this is the obvious one: someone borrows a book, gets the sign-off, and then uses a photocopy from that point on without ever purchasing the book. I don't have a solution for this, other than accepting that there will always be people willing to do what they have to do to cheat the system.
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I would like some clarification:
- One proposal has been to allow players access to the PRD.
Does this mean the Paizo PRD site only, or other sites (e.g. D20PFSRD, Archives of Nethys), or tablet/smartphone apps with offline copies of the PRD?
- Another proposal has been to begin including unique codes in printed material to allow owners to register their books.
...for what, so that Paizo have a record of them owning it? Or to get a free PDF?
- Another is to have a GM sign a chronicle sheet acknowledging that the player owns the source in question.
...for what, so that they can bring a photocopy, or to authorise them to refer to the PRD rather than a current permitted resource?
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I would like some clarification:
- One proposal has been to allow players access to the PRD.
Does this mean the Paizo PRD site only, or other sites (e.g. D20PFSRD, Archives of Nethys), or tablet/smartphone apps with offline copies of the PRD?
- Another proposal has been to begin including unique codes in printed material to allow owners to register their books.
...for what, so that Paizo have a record of them owning it? Or to get a free PDF?
...for what, so that they can bring a photocopy, or to authorise them to refer to the PRD rather than a current permitted resource?
- Another is to have a GM sign a chronicle sheet acknowledging that the player owns the source in question.
Based on the discussions I've seen, the answers to your questions are, respectively: The former, the latter, and the latter. Although that middle one is probably debatable, and I don't think it particularly matters re: the third.
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Any system that has a player getting a signature for owning a book could be signed on their printout of Additional Resources and noted on their ITS.
I would say though, to keep things as honest as possible with a system such as this, that the signatures should come from a Venture-Officer, Paizo Staff member, or some other Paizo recognized representative.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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And I'll kick things off:
For a bunch of reasons, I'd like to see an official "Chronicle 0" that captures characters' initial equipment and purchases. It would also be a good place to list any Additional Resources used in character creation.
The sheet could have something like this:
Additional Resource:.......Source:........................Proof of Ownership:
____________________ __________________ ___________________Where the player would fill out the first two fields, present any sources listed to their GM, and the GM would sign off that physical (or digital) copies were present.
Additional Feats or items purchased would be similarly captured on subsequent chronicle sheets. Players would only need to bring physical copies once for each Additional Resource.
The biggest issue I see with this is the obvious one: someone borrows a book, gets the sign-off, and then uses a photocopy from that point on without ever purchasing the book. I don't have a solution for this, other than accepting that there will always be people willing to do what they have to do to cheat the system.
Any system that has a player getting a signature for owning a book could be signed on their printout of Additional Resources and noted on their ITS.
I would say though, to keep things as honest as possible with a system such as this, that the signatures should come from a Venture-Officer, Paizo Staff member, or some other Paizo recognized representative.
I could get behind a system based on the combination of these two posts.
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I would say though, to keep things as honest as possible with a system such as this, that the signatures should come from a Venture-Officer, Paizo Staff member, or some other Paizo recognized representative.
Isn't that going to be extremely difficult for most people to take advantage of in the campaign as a whole? Venture-Officers and Paizo staff aren't exactly all over the place.
So your input on a thread dedicated entirely to brainstorming alternatives is probably not particularly helpful, then.
Pot, Kettle, Black, etc.
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Any system that has a player getting a signature for owning a book could be signed on their printout of Additional Resources and noted on their ITS.
I would say though, to keep things as honest as possible with a system such as this, that the signatures should come from a Venture-Officer, Paizo Staff member, or some other Paizo recognized representative.
I'd be fine with this. I also meant to note that a GM wouldn't be allowed to sign his own chronicle sheet for resources.
I'd also be okay splitting the resources off of the Chronicle sheets and having one Additional Resources Tracking Sheet (similar to the Inventory Tracking Sheet). Pro: easier to find something since its on one sheet. Cons: more paperwork rather than just using the existing chronicle system, and then you'd have an Inventory Tracking Sheet (that the GM doesn't sign) and a Additional Resource Tracking Sheet (that the GM must sign). I'd prefer things be kept as simple and unambiguous as possible.
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I would say though, to keep things as honest as possible with a system such as this, that the signatures should come from a Venture-Officer, Paizo Staff member, or some other Paizo recognized representative.Isn't that going to be extremely difficult for most people to take advantage of in the campaign as a whole? Venture-Officers and Paizo staff aren't exactly all over the place.
They are pretty prevalent in most areas now. We have over 150 Venture Officers world-wide.
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I would say though, to keep things as honest as possible with a system such as this, that the signatures should come from a Venture-Officer, Paizo Staff member, or some other Paizo recognized representative.
I think that such a system is pretty unnecessary since so much of PFS operates on the honor system anyway and I cannot believe that this kind of thing has been anything other than a non-problem.
specifically the problem that I have with it is the above. Lets say that I play PFS 95% online because there are no Venture-Officers assigned to within a 150 mile radius of where I live (I did this or two years). Who signs my "gave money to Paizo" sheet? Am I only allowed to start new characters in person with a VO present now? Do I have to send Mike an email with screenshots of all my PDF pages so he can sign? What happens when I add a spell or feat from a weird splatbook at a higher level? See how this creates orders of magnitude more problems than it solves.
The only way I would countenance something like this would be if it were a completely optional and voluntary system for those people who buy physical books instead of PDFs and also are reluctant to carry them around. In that case it is a perfectly good stopgap.
Venture-Captain, Washington—Spokane
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And I'll kick things off:
For a bunch of reasons, I'd like to see an official "Chronicle 0" that captures characters' initial equipment and purchases. It would also be a good place to list any Additional Resources used in character creation.
The sheet could have something like this:
Additional Resource:.......Source:........................Proof of Ownership:
____________________ __________________ ___________________Where the player would fill out the first two fields, present any sources listed to their GM, and the GM would sign off that physical (or digital) copies were present.
Additional Feats or items purchased would be similarly captured on subsequent chronicle sheets. Players would only need to bring physical copies once for each Additional Resource.
The biggest issue I see with this is the obvious one: someone borrows a book, gets the sign-off, and then uses a photocopy from that point on without ever purchasing the book. I don't have a solution for this, other than accepting that there will always be people willing to do what they have to do to cheat the system.
I could get behind a system based on the combination of these two posts.Any system that has a player getting a signature for owning a book could be signed on their printout of Additional Resources and noted on their ITS.
I would say though, to keep things as honest as possible with a system such as this, that the signatures should come from a Venture-Officer, Paizo Staff member, or some other Paizo recognized representative.
I do like both ideas as they can help those that bought the hard cover books but do not have the financial bandwidth to purchase the PDFs of the same book. However, I do see an issue with a VO or Paizo staff representative sign off as this could pose a problem for those that have their nearest VO a distance away (my nearest VO is about 2 hours away). If event coordinators would be authorized for the sign off, then I would embrace this idea.
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So your input on a thread dedicated entirely to brainstorming alternatives is probably not particularly helpful, then.Pot, Kettle, Black, etc.
Showing up and saying "I DON'T SUPPORT THE BRAINSTORMING YOU ARE DOING" is not the same as saying "Then shut up and go away." One seeks to disrupt the conversation; the other seeks to get the disrupter to take a hike so the conversation can continue.
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Lets say that I play PFS 95% online because there are no Venture-Officers assigned to within a 150 mile radius of where I live (I did this or two years). Who signs my "gave money to Paizo" sheet?I believe this would fall under the purview of the online VC, Joseph Caubo.
Well since we apparently have one of those now that alleviates some of my concerns. The point still remains that this is unnecessary as a response to a non-problem and that we need to realize that PFS is best as an essentially self-policing community.
I think that this is an issue that it would be productive to adress, especially if there are DMs that are nitpicking about electrinic copies of chronicles, especially if the community is going to continue going off in the direction of more paperwork required and more pedantic campaign rules. That is an issue that would effect many more players than the subset of people who have no pdfs and don't want to carry their books.
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And I'll kick things off:
For a bunch of reasons, I'd like to see an official "Chronicle 0" that captures characters' initial equipment and purchases. It would also be a good place to list any Additional Resources used in character creation.
The sheet could have something like this:
Additional Resource:.......Source:........................Proof of Ownership:
____________________ __________________ ___________________Where the player would fill out the first two fields, present any sources listed to their GM, and the GM would sign off that physical (or digital) copies were present.
Additional Feats or items purchased would be similarly captured on subsequent chronicle sheets. Players would only need to bring physical copies once for each Additional Resource.
The biggest issue I see with this is the obvious one: someone borrows a book, gets the sign-off, and then uses a photocopy from that point on without ever purchasing the book. I don't have a solution for this, other than accepting that there will always be people willing to do what they have to do to cheat the system.
This is my preferred proposed method as well. For those seeking further clarification, the original intent was for this signed resource sheet to permit use of xerox/photocopies as the legal source when combined with this sheet. I suppose that could be extended to PRD as well if desired, but seems unnecessary.
I think Andrew's suggestion of requiring a VO signature is acceptable, but I personally find it unnecessary. As others have pointed out, we rely heavily on the honor system already. This also serves to not encumber our VO's further if any game day coordinator can sign off. I agree that a GM should not be allowing to sign off their own collection, however.
If one seeks full proof ability to verify legitimacy, they will be hard pressed to find. What this solution does accomplish is to serve as a reasonable deterrent from "ownership fraud", as well as provide a very kind courtesy to those who have a primarily physical collection.
Xerox/photocopies will be at hand in the case of any rules clarification needed, and in the event a player using this method does not have both his signed off AR sheet as well as the copy of the game mechanic in question, it can easily be handled just like any other missing resource.
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Got an idea! Paizo official PRD is good enough for hardcover support. Paizo is pretty much giving that stuff away for free anyway via the PRD. Problem being that not everyone will have a battery that lasts the whole game(not actually a new problem) or a WiFi spot. This could be mitigated from printing out only the stuff you use. It would be so much easier to carry 30 pages of printouts than several hardcovr books.
Soft cover books would still need to be brought in physical/PDF format because that stuff is not freely avaible from the Paizo PRD.
I hope this thread gets more traction and a solution is come up with. I for one am not happy that I supported both Paizo and my friendly local gaming store and thus have no PDF for my past purchases. For a little while, I got lazy and stopped bringing my hardcover books from the local game store(meaning no PDF from paizo). I was very happy to use my iPad app. The local judges use to see me carry the books so I guess that is why they never challenged, they know I have the books. Or at least they knew I had the books, for all they know, I could have sold them, a problem with sign offs, a player's may own it and then sell right after. This would not work for PCs later on but it is still a problem.
Lately a new player began showing up who did not buy any additional resources. He did nit just leVe them at home, he never bought them at all. He still tried to use stuff from softcover books through the d20pfrd site. I love that site though I can see why Paizo wants a purchase to keep them in business. I even support their choice to require a purchase and buy products instead of only useing the app alone as it gets updated just like the PRD, even if a little slower. Now I feel burdened to once again to have to bring a heavy bag. And what for? A whole whopping 5 freaking pages out of UM and another 5 freaking pages out of UC!! At least I can justify bringing the APG hardcover for all the pages from the two base classes I use out of it. I also finally grudgingly bought(repurchased the CRB PDF) to lighten the load. I also bought the PDF instead of hardcover for UE, as I will for future purchases.
So I sincerely hope a solution is found for the players like me who.do not want to rebuy(PDF) thiet hard covers.
Another solution is to take the pages.out of the book and leave.the other 251 pages at home but who wants.to destroy their books? No one!
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I like the idea of a proof-of-ownership chronicle sheet that would allow a person to bring in photocopies of their book. However, what's to stop a shady guy like me from borrowing my friend's library and getting it signed off on right after he claims it on his chronicle?
Is there anything unique about a single copy of Ultimate Combat? Some sort of serial number, etc.? Is there a way for us to cleanly mark a book with a serial number, and keep a program like this something as optional?
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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I'm in favour of allowing a photocopied page, rather than requiring the entire (heavy) physical book.
Personally I'm for the simplistic approach; the player is required to have the (relevant part of) the required resource with them. If they want to use a photocopied page, then that's where the signature should be (along with your PFS number).
Turn up at my table with a physical book, and a page or two copied from the book, and I'll happily sign the page (although, as I'm basically saying I believe this to be a true and accurate copy, I'll probably flip through the pages before actually signing).
Yes, it's slightly more annoying than being able to get one signature to attest that you presented the book. But it's still a lot more convenient than having to carry that book with you to every PFS game.
On a related, but different, topic, I am considering asking my players for an "additional resources used" summary sheet for their characters (comparable to an Inventory Tracking Sheet), though that's not where I'd want to see the signatures. Players are supposed to notify the GM before the game if they use anything from books beyond the core assumption; I'm trying to get my players to follow that rule, too.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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However, what's to stop a shady guy like me from borrowing my friend's library and getting it signed off on right after he claims it on his chronicle?
My fist.
;)
Serious answer: I think this could probably be left to the honor system, but that's my non-professional supposition, so it may not be worth much.
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the honor system does not pay the bills
Paizo makes money from passion, not from honor, policing, or guilt.
The problem PFS has is in efficiently helping new players come to grips with 1500+ pages of rules (optional or otherwise) and find the fun! Failing to enforce book ownership rules doesn't strike me as one of them.
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one, because I love Redward and he's always got great Ideas, I came to actually present my solution with the PDFs and Book dilemma.
1. Free PDF with book proof of purchase.
Let's start here. I work in Advertising, I started my career out in shopper marketing, Redward can confirm this as he plays with my IRL. Therefore I'm presenting myself as an expert on my solution.
Coupon Packs - A little bit of snot glue and a small piece of paper with a code attached to the inside of the books. There is very little instances of theft of these coupons that I've had experience with, often you need to scan the coupon to make it active. Most modern registers that can process credit cards and print receipts can also be programmed to accept and process these coupons as well.
Scanned proof of purchase - A client of ours once allowed consumers to scan their receipts and upload them in return for coupons and other incentives. A little more cost intensive than the IRC, less likely to be pirated.
IRC - Instant Redeemable Coupons. This would be more of a burden on brick and mortars, but if it mean greater support of their stores and higher purchases of published products, they are often willing to take on the bookkeeping for this. It would work that for every book Paizo sends the brick and mortar, they get a card to keep at the register. This card can be scanned by a paizo app on an iPad or smart phone (many brick and mortars are using iPads to process loyalty programs like Belly and 5-Star now) You purchase the product, they pull out the card from behind the counter, scan it on the ipad, and voila, you have an instantly redeemable code for a free pdf of the product you purchased.
2. Make HeroLabs an approved Source. You're already getting a kick back from Hero Labs from the "rule-book" sets people have to buy to access the content, why is it not an approved source?
3. More robust PRD, with the ability to print off a watermarked Purchased Product List.
There are some backwards compatible issues with 1 and 3, I understand. And to be honest, I'm not sure what Paizo can do about those, other than allow for VOs to certify a legitimate copy of pre-implementation purchased hardcopies.
Again, ultimately, I don't care because I'm not enforcing the rule at the tables I run and as I've said before, if that means Brock and John don't want me GMing anymore it's no skin off my back, I don't GM for fun, I GM to give our VOs breaks from running and to take my turn. I'll go back to being one of those selfish, I only play, players lol.
And if some hardcore GM wants to see all my legitimate sources, I only buy PDFs so it's not a problem for me, as I've got my iPad with them all at my table. But if they start slowing up game play with mandatory audits, I can always pick up another hobby.
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I propose Paizo get together with Lone Wolf Development and do whatever is necessary to make Hero Lab a legal source (including upping the royalties if necessary and making sure all of the rules are accurately included.) That way people don't have to keep track of what feat comes from what book and make sure they have a copy of the necessary book on hand. It can all be printed as a legal source through Hero Lab.
I find the problem of following the rules is less about money and more about convenience.
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I propose Paizo get together with Lone Wolf Development and do whatever is necessary to make Hero Lab a legal source (including upping the royalties if necessary and making sure all of the rules are accurately included.) That way people don't have to keep track of what feat comes from what book and make sure they have a copy of the necessary book on hand. It can all be printed as a legal source through Hero Lab.
I find the problem of following the rules is less about money and more about convenience.
Evidently, as you're willing to increase costs for a 3rd party company significantly, so that you don't have to bother toting a book or page printed from a PDF to play a game you choose to do on your own time...that's spending somebody elses money so you don't have to be bothered with trivalities...
I'm sure they'll be more than willing to throw open their check book for your convenience.
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2. Make HeroLabs an approved Source. You're already getting a kick back from Hero Labs from the "rule-book" sets people have to buy to access the content, why is it not an approved source?
Mostly because Hero Lab has a condensed version of the rules text that is not always accurate. Case in point is that the text in Hero Lab for the Alchemist Precise Bomb Discovery does not include the text that the Discovery only works if you actually hit the target. That's a pretty important omission.
It is, however, also something that could be fixed.
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I propose Paizo get together with Lone Wolf Development and do whatever is necessary to make Hero Lab a legal source (including upping the royalties if necessary and making sure all of the rules are accurately included.) That way people don't have to keep track of what feat comes from what book and make sure they have a copy of the necessary book on hand. It can all be printed as a legal source through Hero Lab.
I find the problem of following the rules is less about money and more about convenience.
Evidently, as you're willing to increase costs for a 3rd party company significantly, so that you don't have to bother toting a book or page printed from a PDF to play a game you choose to do on your own time...that's spending somebody elses money so you don't have to be bothered with trivalities...
I'm sure they'll be more than willing to throw open their check book for your convenience.
When did I say I expected that? Please don't make up stuff and then attribute it to me in order to falsely win an argument. If making Hero Lab a legal source would require them to pay higher royalties, I would fully expect them to pass that cost along to the customer. There are plenty of people who would be willing to pay for that convenience. Which is my entire point.
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When did I say I expected that? Please don't make up stuff and then attribute it to me in order to falsely win an argument. If making Hero Lab a legal source would require them to pay higher royalties, I would fully expect them to pass that cost along to the customer. There are plenty of people who would be willing to pay for that convenience. Which is my entire point.if necessary and making sure all of the rules are accurately included.) That way people don't have to keep track of what feat comes from what book and make sure they have a copy of the necessary book on hand. It can all be printed as a legal source through Hero Lab.
I find the problem of following the rules is less about money and more about convenience.
Evidently, as you're willing to increase costs for a 3rd party company significantly, so that you don't have to bother toting a book or page printed from a PDF to play a game you choose to do on your own time...that's spending somebody elses money so you don't have to be bothered with trivalities...
I'm sure they'll be more than willing to throw open their check book for your convenience.
Here...
And again with a new revenue stream here...for all of those who have no interest in PFS or already have legal sources now needing to pay extra so you can use an outside source...
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When did I say I expected that? Please don't make up stuff and then attribute it to me in order to falsely win an argument. If making Hero Lab a legal source would require them to pay higher royalties, I would fully expect them to pass that cost along to the customer. There are plenty of people who would be willing to pay for that convenience. Which is my entire point.I propose Paizo get together with Lone Wolf Development and do whatever is necessary to make Hero Lab a legal source (including upping the royalties if necessary and making sure all of the rules are accurately included.) That way people don't have to keep track of what feat comes from what book and make sure they have a copy of the necessary book on hand. It can all be printed as a legal source through Hero Lab.
I find the problem of following the rules is less about money and more about convenience.
Evidently, as you're willing to increase costs for a 3rd party company significantly, so that you don't have to bother toting a book or page printed from a PDF to play a game you choose to do on your own time...that's spending somebody elses money so you don't have to be bothered with trivalities...
I'm sure they'll be more than willing to throw open their check book for your convenience.
The problem with this suggestion, is that you are now asking Paizo to allocate man resources to double check all of a 3rd party's (LoneWolf) work to ensure it is accurate.
With the trouble they have with man resources for doing just their own work, I doubt they would have the man resources to allocate to a project such as this simply for the convenience of PFS players.
Lets also look at what the Royalties actually are:
Lets say they are 5%. You can purchase 3 to 5 splat books on a Hero Lab package for $4.99. 5% of $4.99 is just under $0.25. Paizo charges roughly $7.99 to $14.99 (dependent on how new) per PDF for the splat books. I don't know what percentage of that is net profit, but I'm going to guess it is higher than 6-1/4 cents each.
It does not make sense financially to try and float your entire company on a meager royalty.
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Let's start here. I work in Advertising, I started my career out in shopper marketing, Redward can confirm this as he plays with my IRL. Therefore I'm presenting myself as an expert on my solution.
/endorsed
I'll throw out another option, inspired by P33J's IRC idea (and almost certainly suggested by someone else, earlier and elsewhere):
Offer Book + PDF bundles. I know this is already standard with a subscription; this would be for single purchases. Here's how it would work in the various instances:
- From Paizo: for a small upsell (+10%? +$2?) you get the PDF when you order the book.
- From a brick and mortar: The store offers you a coupon (same additional charge as above) with a redeemable code to download the PDF from Paizo.
- Existing copies: An owner can tear out (yes, tear out) the last page of the book (or first, or some other non-relevant, but identifiable page) and mail it to Paizo to receive a redemption code for the PDF, in exchange for the same fee.
I fully recognize that that last option will not be popular for many people, and could be abused by skilled forgers, but cheaters gonna cheat.
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@ trollbill which could also be accomplished with what? A $10 pdf instead of the $9.99 (or higher if they pass on the cost) herolab module pack?
Bottom line is there is already an alternative to books. At $10 for the core books, the pdfs are already more than reasonably priced. If the concern is carrying around all those books to a convention, why not increase your expected convention costs by $50 and pick up the most needed pdfs for your PCs?
Don't have a tablet or smart phone? no problem. If you are reading this you have a PC ... why not print out the needed pages from the pdf you just picked up?
Have a PC, but don't have a printer? No problem. head to Kinko's/Fed Ex and print out the needed pages.
There are solutions to the "problem" already available. Most of the folks who are voicing opposition are taking the stance of "I don't want to buy my books twice" ... and that's fine. But it does mean you are carrying your books with you.
Personally, I have no issue with a photocopy of a physical product type solution. Someone buys a book, sure, let them use a photocopy. Yes, you will get folks who will use other folks' books to make copies. But as has been said in other threads, no system is perfect (even in the current system you could print out someone else's pdf after all).
The PRD won't work as it is not all inclusive and certain details on some things have been changed to keep the PRD campaign neutral (and since PFS is campaign specific that will cause issues.
All the "solutions" of free pdfs via individual codes/inserts/etc. will just create an added cost to production where it really is not necessary ... not to mention the subscriber base could get ticked at a reversal of the long held line of "free pdfs to subscribers only".
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When did I say I expected that? Please don't make up stuff and then attribute it to me in order to falsely win an argument. If making Hero Lab a legal source would require them to pay higher royalties, I would fully expect them to pass that cost along to the customer. There are plenty of people who would be willing to pay for that convenience. Which is my entire point.if necessary and making sure all of the rules are accurately included.) That way people don't have to keep track of what feat comes from what book and make sure they have a copy of the necessary book on hand. It can all be printed as a legal source through Hero Lab.
I find the problem of following the rules is less about money and more about convenience.
Evidently, as you're willing to increase costs for a 3rd party company significantly, so that you don't have to bother toting a book or page printed from a PDF to play a game you choose to do on your own time...that's spending somebody elses money so you don't have to be bothered with trivalities...
I'm sure they'll be more than willing to throw open their check book for your convenience.
Here...
And again with a new revenue stream here...for all of those who have no interest in PFS or already have legal sources now needing to pay extra so you can use an outside source...
Well, making the product PFS legal would improve the overall quality of the product for all their customers and would thus justify some of the price increase, but I do see your point.
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When did I say I expected that? Please don't make up stuff and then attribute it to me in order to falsely win an argument. If making Hero Lab a legal source would require them to pay higher royalties, I would fully expect them to pass that cost along to the customer. There are plenty of people who would be willing to pay for that convenience. Which is my entire point.I propose Paizo get together with Lone Wolf Development and do whatever is necessary to make Hero Lab a legal source (including upping the royalties if necessary and making sure all of the rules are accurately included.) That way people don't have to keep track of what feat comes from what book and make sure they have a copy of the necessary book on hand. It can all be printed as a legal source through Hero Lab.
I find the problem of following the rules is less about money and more about convenience.
Evidently, as you're willing to increase costs for a 3rd party company significantly, so that you don't have to bother toting a book or page printed from a PDF to play a game you choose to do on your own time...that's spending somebody elses money so you don't have to be bothered with trivalities...
I'm sure they'll be more than willing to throw open their check book for your convenience.
The problem with this suggestion, is that you are now asking Paizo to allocate man resources to double check all of a 3rd party's (LoneWolf) work to ensure it is accurate.
With the trouble they have with man resources for doing just their own work, I doubt they would have the man resources to allocate to a project such as this simply for the convenience of PFS players.
Lets also look at what the Royalties actually are:
Lets say they are 5%. You can purchase 3 to 5 splat books on a Hero Lab package for $4.99. 5% of $4.99 is just under $0.25. Paizo charges roughly $7.99 to $14.99 (dependent on how new) per PDF for the splat books. I don't know what...
Well, I never said I expected Paizo to provide this service for free any more than I said I expected Lone Wolf Development to. Rather it was an opportunity for both of them to actually make more money from people willing to pay for the convenience, though I admit I had not considered the issue of non-PFS players who use Hero Lab in my assumptions.
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Oh, just thought of an issue with the "sign the Additional Resources page" thing: after a new book comes out and you need to print a fresh copy of AR, you now need to either carry both copies or get fresh signatures. Better keep the signatures to their own sheet, then.
Actually, I would do this differently...
Have perhaps only the hard covers (that exist when the form is created) hard-coded onto the page, but the bulk would just be blank pages, where the player would add the name of the book (and perhaps a slot for ISDN or something).
For sure, this would only be of use to verify that the photocopies that you have of the Additional Resource are "backed" by a physical copy of said resource.
This does not get rid of the requirement for the player to provide the complete rules for anything he or she is using. In fact, it is now more important that if the player is pulling information that they photocopy all the rules pages... for example, for a feat, I would want to to see the feat listing and the feat description, both.
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Well, making the product PFS legal would improve the overall quality of the product for all their customers and would thus justify some of the price increase, but I do see your point.
More people using a produce =/= the prodction value of the product increases.
The problem is that HeroLab makes mistakes, and even if they can be corrected, its just another layer of mistakes on top of the little bit Paizo feels the need to correct.
Also, HeroLab makes players stupid, IMO. They stop looking at what the books actually say and just give a 'but HeroLab says...' response.
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Well, making the product PFS legal would improve the overall quality of the product for all their customers and would thus justify some of the price increase, but I do see your point.More people using a produce =/= the prodction value of the product increases.
The problem is that HeroLab makes mistakes, and even if they can be corrected, its just another layer of mistakes on top of the little bit Paizo feels the need to correct.
Also, HeroLab makes players stupid, IMO. They stop looking at what the books actually say and just give a 'but HeroLab says...' response.
I hate it when I hear that.
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Well, making the product PFS legal would improve the overall quality of the product for all their customers and would thus justify some of the price increase, but I do see your point.More people using a produce =/= the prodction value of the product increases.
The problem is that HeroLab makes mistakes, and even if they can be corrected, its just another layer of mistakes on top of the little bit Paizo feels the need to correct.
Also, HeroLab makes players stupid, IMO. They stop looking at what the books actually say and just give a 'but HeroLab says...' response.
It doesn't make them stupid, but it might make them lazy. That is rather the point of technology. But this is a hobby. People are entitled to a certain amount of laziness and if you make it too hard for them to play the game, they stop playing. All the justifications I keep seeing as to why it should be okay to make things harder on the players and DMs by enforcing unfun paperwork rules doesn't change the fact that you are enforcing unfun paperwork rules.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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All the justifications I keep seeing as to why it should be okay to make things harder on the players and DMs by enforcing unfun paperwork rules doesn't change the fact that you are enforcing unfun paperwork rules.
"Enforcing unfun paperwork rules" doesn't make things nearly as hard on me as a GM as when players can't show me rules that I can trust to be accurate when I need to understand how their abilities work.
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Well, making the product PFS legal would improve the overall quality of the product for all their customers and would thus justify some of the price increase, but I do see your point.
It might. Extra revenue into the stream may allow extra checkers for accuracy.
I apologize that I came off combative. I've just seen so many of these threads lately, the constant back and forth has worn at me a bit.
Cheers.