If you make a lead box invisible, can detect magic detect the illusion, or does the lead block it? If I were standing inside the invisible lead box, could people outside of it see me? Could their divinations detect me?
Why or why not?
If RD is playing a character that needs to breathe, I'll be amazed.
Why would the illusion be on the outside of the box? What if he cast it from the inside? Does an illusion automatically extend beyond both sides of anything it is cast on?
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Detect magic does not allow someone to detect invisibility. There is a separate spell for that entirely (See Invisibility). If Detect Magic allowed the detection of invisibility, then you would be defeating a 2nd level spell with a cantrip. This is a no-no (see Light spell vs darkness spell vs daylight spell vs deeper darkness). The material of the box itself, all of it, becomes infused in this magic, even if you cast it from the inside
As far as seeing you, inside the box, that's a different mater. You would be invisible, I believe they would not be able to see you. I base this on this
Items dropped or put down by an invisible creature become visible; items picked up disappear if tucked into the clothing or pouches worn by the creature. Light, however, never becomes invisible, although a source of light can become so (thus, the effect is that of a light with no visible source). Any part of an item that the subject carries but that extends more than 10 feet from it becomes visible.
Of course, the subject is not magically silenced, and certain other conditions can render the recipient detectable (such as swimming in water or stepping in a puddle). If a check is required, a stationary invisible creature has a +40 bonus on its Stealth checks. This bonus is reduced to +20 if the creature is moving. The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature. For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe. Exactly who is a foe depends on the invisible character's perceptions. Actions directed at unattended objects do not break the spell. Causing harm indirectly is not an attack. Thus, an invisible being can open doors, talk, eat, climb stairs, summon monsters and have them attack, cut the ropes holding a rope bridge while enemies are on the bridge, remotely trigger traps, open a portcullis to release attack dogs, and so forth. If the subject attacks directly, however, it immediately becomes visible along with all its gear. Spells such as bless that specifically affect allies but not foes are not attacks for this purpose, even when they include foes in their area.
Invisibility can be made permanent (on objects only) with a permanency spell.
I know it's a stretch, but imagine yourself as the object being put inside the pocket. That's why people can't see you. It is a lead box, so divination spells (such as detect evil/good/law/chaos) that state they can be stopped by lead will not see you inside of it.
Also, hope you can either hold your breath, don't need to breathe, or have air holes.
If RD is playing a character that needs to breathe, I'll be amazed.
Why would the illusion be on the outside of the box? What if he cast it from the inside? Does an illusion automatically extend beyond both sides of anything it is cast on?
It would include the entire box itself. If the inside of the lead box is invisible, but not the outside, than RD would be able to see out of the box, but others wouldn't be able to see through it.
So, you know, many divination effects wouldn't work on him (those that were blocked by lead), but either he'd be visible, or there'd be a strange, large lead box sitting there that he could see out of.
Though why you'd go to so much trouble for the benefit of a simple mind blank or simpler mask dweomer effect is beyond me.
Relevant breathing fun!
Tactics, are you suggesting that invisibility is a one-way illusion? That would imply that if you cast invisibility on a door, you could see IN the room, but the creatures inside would still just see a door.
Is that seriously what you are suggesting?
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Tactics, are you suggesting that invisibility is a one-way illusion? That would imply that if you cast invisibility on a door, you could see IN the room, but the creatures inside would still just see a door.
Is that seriously what you are suggesting?
It seemed to me he was saying that casting it inside the box (which you mentioned earlier as not automatically extending to the outside of the box) should permeate the entire spell target, else one-way mirror shenanigans occur.
and nanomd reveals he is the new guy for the thread. thank you nanomd.
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I foresee a whole new spell "One-way Invisibility" that makes an object invisible from one side but not the other.
... I might just have to write it.
It seemed to me he was saying that casting it inside the box (which you mentioned earlier as not automatically extending to the outside of the box) should permeate the entire spell target, else one-way mirror shenanigans occur.Tactics, are you suggesting that invisibility is a one-way illusion? That would imply that if you cast invisibility on a door, you could see IN the room, but the creatures inside would still just see a door.
Is that seriously what you are suggesting?
Yep. Thanks, Nanomd!
Also, I didn't see your post before I made mine. Interesting. I'd have to think on that more, but it does make sense.
It seemed to me he was saying that casting it inside the box (which you mentioned earlier as not automatically extending to the outside of the box) should permeate the entire spell target, else one-way mirror shenanigans occur.Tactics, are you suggesting that invisibility is a one-way illusion? That would imply that if you cast invisibility on a door, you could see IN the room, but the creatures inside would still just see a door.
Is that seriously what you are suggesting?
No, I was asking if the MAGIC aura extended beyond the edges in all directions because....
You know what, forget it.
Every atom of the box is made of lead. Every atom is also invisible. Divination cannot penetrate lead atoms. Ergo, cannot penetrate the invisibility.
However, if you think of magic as an aura that emanates from the atoms, then you're good to go.
Up to interpretation I guess.
If you cast the spell on the box I'm going with detectable.
However you IN the box isn't detectable, and are covered with the invisibility.
If you make a lead box invisible, can detect magic detect the illusion, or does the lead block it? If I were standing inside the invisible lead box, could people outside of it see me? Could their divinations detect me?
Why or why not?
I might rule that lead can't be affected by non-instantaneous spells, as lead often blocks magic from traveling through it. This implies that lead itself has antimagic properties, at least to some degree.
But if the lead box were invisible, see invisibility would allow you to see it as the effect terminates at the lead, at the very least. Likewise with an illusion- You can't see any illusions inside of the lead, as the lead blocks the spell, but the outside of the illusion would be visible as you aren't looking or scrying or detecting through lead yet.
Divinations don't typically work through lead, regardless of what is going on in or around the lead.
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Detect magic does not allow someone to detect invisibility. There is a separate spell for that entirely (See Invisibility). If Detect Magic allowed the detection of invisibility, then you would be defeating a 2nd level spell with a cantrip. This is a no-no (see Light spell vs darkness spell vs daylight spell vs deeper darkness). The material of the box itself, all of it, becomes infused in this magic, even if you cast it from the inside
Detect magic detect the magic aura of an magically invisible object of creature, pinpointing its location after 3 rounds of concentration. It don't negate the 50% miss chance.
It don't defeat invisibility, it only make it less efficient.There is no rule supporting the idea that the magic aura of a invisibility spell can't be detected.
If you make a lead box invisible, can detect magic detect the illusion, or does the lead block it? If I were standing inside the invisible lead box, could people outside of it see me? Could their divinations detect me?
Why or why not?
If a lead box is magic, it detects as magic. Just like a wood box will or a steel box or adamantine box or a mithril box.
Nothing INSIDE the magic lead box will be noted due to it still being lead and blocking the magic from permiating either direction from OTHER sources. But the lead is still MAGIC and still radiates it's own field just like any other substance.
Lead does not CANCEL magic it blocks it's radiance through the material. But if it IS magic it still radiates.
The lead box cannot be inside itself to be blocking the detect spells from itself.
Magic lead is still MAGIC lead.
From a more real world stand point:
Lead is used as radiation shielding since it blocks radiation. But if it is exposed enough it will become radiactive and be detectable as such itself. It will still block radiation from what it encapsulates at this point but it is radiactive itself and will detect such.
So you're saying the magic aura is separate and outside of the lead, thus being detectable.
Where in the rules does it say the aura is separate from the object? It's clearly not at emanation.
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So you're saying the magic aura is separate and outside of the lead, thus being detectable.
Where in the rules does it say the aura is separate from the object? It's clearly not at emanation.
A item being red is not an emanation or a something separated from the item, but if see the item you see that it is red.
The aura of magic permeate the whole object, up to its skin. So there is no lead between the invisibility aura and the guy using detect magic.
I still think it debatable, Diego. Could be either/or as far as the RAW is concerned.
I'll likely agree with your interpretation in my games for simplicity's sake.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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So you're saying the magic aura is separate and outside of the lead, thus being detectable.
Where in the rules does it say the aura is separate from the object? It's clearly not at emanation.
I don't think the rules give a definition for aura, so you'd want to look to common usage in this case.
Generally "aura" is used either figuratively to describe a perceptible quality given off by a person, place, or thing (he had an aura of mystery about him) or more literally, as a luminous radiation or energy field (the later being more common in mystical contexts). Either way, I'd say both extend beyond the bounds of the object they're attached to, and so would be detectable even if the substance itself blocked detection.
Besides, lead isn't impenetrable on an atomic level. You need to have a thin sheet of lead to block divination, so at bare minimum the detect spells would be able to be able to penetrate the box up to the depth of a thin sheet. :)
What I am more interested in is what use it would be to be inside of a invisible lead box. Are you planing on putting it around yourself and ride a floating disk? Maybe with a small hole in the box that only you know where it is so that you can get line of effect with your spells.
If this was not the plan then I guess I just gave you an idea.
Actually I think you are planing on putting some disguise spell or such on yourself and want to make it so that if anyone tries to detect magic on you to find them you will read negative. However a lead box is a tad cumbersome and heavy can you carry it discreetly?
It also says a spell is cast ON an object ravingdork. If it's cast on an object then it's not cast in an object. On is also not part of.
Ergo it's not in the object, and not part of the object it is on the object.
Best argument I've seen yet, Abraham.
So you're saying the magic aura is separate and outside of the lead, thus being detectable.
Where in the rules does it say the aura is separate from the object? It's clearly not at emanation.
This is what I was asking.... If it is cast ON the box from the INSIDE of the box, is it ON the OUTSIDE of the box too?
Coming from you Ravingdork that actually means something.
What I'm not sure, but something.
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This is what I was asking.... If it is cast ON the box from the INSIDE of the box, is it ON the OUTSIDE of the box too?So you're saying the magic aura is separate and outside of the lead, thus being detectable.
Where in the rules does it say the aura is separate from the object? It's clearly not at emanation.
If you cast the spell on the chest of your barbarian, is the back of him invisible too? What about if he opens his mouth, can other people see his teeth and tongue? The answer to both of these questions is as follows: He's invisible. All of him. That includes his teeth and his tongue, and his innards as well. If you swallowed a stone that was enchanted so that, on utterance of a command word, it cast invisibility on you, ALL OF YOU IS INVISIBLE. Not just your colon, or your liver.
Coming from you Ravingdork that actually means something.
What I'm not sure, but something.
Don't get too proud. It's the best argument in this discussion. Not of all time. ^_^
Simple solution.
Get a lead box, put a door in it, put airholes in it. Put lead glass windows in it.
Cast invisibility on it.
Put on a ring of sustenance.
Cast Invisibility on it.
Cast Aura on it to remove the magic aura.
Climb inside it by touch, close door.
Wait for bad guys to appear and begin attacking. Watch the monk break his hand as he punches the 1ft thick lead wall. Watch the fireball go off outside the box and hit the attackers cause they didn't see the lead wall. Watch the fighter slam his sword into the lead and get it stuck in mid air. Laugh and giggle insanely. Make sure your pet cat is in your hands, so you can laugh maniacally and pet it as you watch the attackers waste their resources on you.
When they stop and start trying to figure it out by touch, have your minions (hidden in the shadows with invisibility as well) rush the puzzled attackers and ambush them.
Wouldn't the fireball going off outside the box melt the lead all over you? O_O
Wouldn't the fireball going off outside the box melt the lead all over you? O_O
RD, you're the rules lawyer, you don't know that? Check the materials table, compare a 5-9d6 fireball to the hardness and HP of a lead box with 1 ft thick walls. Remember, HP is in inches. So... yeah, not seeing a fireball (that does half damage to objects) melting the box. It might melt a little on the edges, but that's it. Just don't put airholes in the lid so the lead drips on you and you'll be fine. You may need to keep a rod or something in the box to re-open the airholes if one gets clogged.
Wouldn't the fireball going off outside the box melt the lead all over you? O_ORD, you're the rules lawyer, you don't know that? Check the materials table, compare a 5-9d6 fireball to the hardness and HP of a lead box with 1 ft thick walls. Remember, HP is in inches. So... yeah, not seeing a fireball (that does half damage to objects) melting the box. It might melt a little on the edges, but that's it. Just don't put airholes in the lid so the lead drips on you and you'll be fine. You may need to keep a rod or something in the box to re-open the airholes if one gets clogged.
Yes, I am the Rules Lawyer.
It can melt metals with low melting points, such as lead, gold, copper, silver, and bronze.
Yes it can, RD. It can melt the lead. A single fireball can't melt 1,000,000,000 tons of lead. It can't melt a ton of lead. It can melt as much lead as it can do HP to the lead in question.
If you had 100hp of lead, and your fireball did 50 pts after everything, then half the lead would be melted. The other half would be non-melted lead.
Yes it can, RD. It can melt the lead. A single fireball can't melt 1,000,000,000 tons of lead.
Obviously.
It is an automatic effect. If it weren't, why bother mentioning it at all?
If you cast the spell on the chest of your barbarian, is the back of him invisible too? What about if he opens his mouth, can other people see his teeth and tongue? The answer to both of these questions is as follows: He's invisible. All of him. That includes his teeth and his tongue, and his innards as well. If you swallowed a stone that was enchanted so that, on utterance of a command word, it cast invisibility on you, ALL OF YOU IS INVISIBLE. Not just your colon, or your liver.This is what I was asking.... If it is cast ON the box from the INSIDE of the box, is it ON the OUTSIDE of the box too?So you're saying the magic aura is separate and outside of the lead, thus being detectable.
Where in the rules does it say the aura is separate from the object? It's clearly not at emanation.
This must be a difficult concept to grasp since so many people can't seem to grasp it. I thought perhaps with RD's post adding clarification that people might get it. Instead I get this sort of response about all the innards of the object being cast on and my question about what constitutes "ON"-ness totally overlooked or misunderstood.
So I'm back to.....
you know what? Never mind.
First, yes of course detect magic can detect the invisibility spell. There is no aspect of invisibility that masks itself from detect. Further the area of the spell is coterminous with the surface of the lead box; it is not itself surrounded by the lead box.
Second, no of course outside observers cannot see you. If we take it as a very simple given that the developers of this game did not include invisibility as an utterly useless spell, it follows that contents of that which is made invisible also are visually obscured. If that were not the case, every microbe, meal, piercing, tattoo or other foreign body within a creature that is recipient of invisibility would be visible. Since I accept the developers are not idiots, I accept that invisibility renders the semi-digested turds in a character's intestines mercifully non-visible. So too the contents of the hypothetical lead box remain invisible.
Second-point-five. An interesting edge case would be if the lead box had holes in it. Casting invisibility upon a prison door made of bars wouldn't hide the prisoner, so clearly at some point the premise is changed. Where that happens seems to be line-of-sight. The solid lead box - like the adventurer's skin - obscures line-of-sight to its contents, allowing invisibility to do its work.
Third, it depends on the divination spell. If it's one blocked by lead and the box's thickness meets the blocking criteria then the answer is evident. And yet strangely unrelated to if invisibility is involved.
Yes it can, RD. It can melt the lead. A single fireball can't melt 1,000,000,000 tons of lead.Obviously.
It is an automatic effect. If it weren't, why bother mentioning it at all?
Congratulations RD, you've just managed to find a way to jumpstart the entire economy.
Dig ore out of the ground, grind it up into fist sized bits, have a wizard cast fireball on it. All the gold, silver, lead and other valuable things will melt out of it. Just pick it up off the ground.
let's see, 20 foot radius, that's 33,510 cubic feet of ore. You can now extract all the gold, copper, silver, lead and bronze in the ore. Congratulations, no more blast furnaces required to process the ore, no more taking weeks to get gold out of ore.
Or you know, you can take the fluff at it's face value, that it can melt those metals, but only as much as it does HP to the thing made out of that metal.
Just remember, from now on, your PC loses all his coins every time he's hit by a fireball, because the fireball melts them. Remember to calculate the extra damage as molten metal flows out of his backpack and down his back and legs.
Also remember to mark off any gold or silver or copper or bronze items after a fireball (those celestial chain shirts are sure expensive one use items!).
EDIT : And before you say, "Buh buh buh, they is magic, they is immune!", the spell doesn't limit it to mundane metals. It says it melts those metals. Full stop. So if you want to use it as an automatic effect, since nothing limits it, then any gold, lead, silver, copper or bronze magic items melt on first exposure to a fireball. And "Buh buh buh attended objects, save!", nope, your logic is automatic, there is nothing listed in the save about the metal saving (since it would be all or nothing, only a save for half, and if your magic item is half melted, it's all broken magically).
Why is it so hard to believe? It's certainly not the first time wizards have broken the economy.
Why is it so hard to believe? It's certainly not the first time wizards have broken the economy.
It's not RD, just make sure you apply the same logic to everything, not just when it's convenient. When your copper circlet melts and you lose your boost to CHA skills, or your armor melts because it's gold celestial armor, or your lead bullets all melt and your gunslinger is reduced to an unarmed fighter, or your copper rod melts all over your hand (again, remember to take the damage from all these melted artifacts, molten metal eats through skin faster than hydrochloric acid through styrofoam).
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Things within an invisible box are invisible.
Invisibility say:
Items dropped or put down by an invisible creature become visible; items picked up disappear if tucked into the clothing or pouches worn by the creature.
Being inside something invisible should have the same effect as being inside the pockets of someone invisible.
Second-point-five. An interesting edge case would be if the lead box had holes in it. Casting invisibility upon a prison door made of bars wouldn't hide the prisoner, so clearly at some point the premise is changed. Where that happens seems to be line-of-sight. The solid lead box - like the adventurer's skin - obscures line-of-sight to its contents, allowing invisibility to do its work.
If you have casted invisibility on the bars of the prison, the prisoner isn't within an invisible item. One side of his cell is invisible, and that is all of it.
Hmm, so just put the box out, hide somewhere else, and put an illusion of you inside the square the box is in. :) Aura the illusion. Continue to laugh maniacally via Ventriloquist spell. :)
My favorite trick with invisibility has always been to create a wall 10 feet wide with 1 ft square arrow holes in it. Then make it invisible, and aura it. Then put a pit in front of it, 10 ft wide. Put it at the end of a corridor. Cover the pit with quarter inch thick stone that breaks if it has more than say 50 lbs on it.
Stand kobolds behind the invisible wall, shoot the PCs with cross bows. Wait for PCs to charge, see charging PC slam into wall and fall into pit.
See kobolds laugh.
See kobolds drop torch into pit, which has 2 inches of oil at the bottom, under the 2 foot long sharpened spikes.
EDIT : Note this only works if you have Players who like to charge anything in range. Ensure corridor is only 40 ft long so they can charge in one round.
Hmm, so just put the box out, hide somewhere else, and put an illusion of you inside the square the box is in. :) Aura the illusion. Continue to laugh maniacally via Ventriloquist spell. :)If the box fill the whole square you have no line of effect to cast the spell.
Hmm, Mirror behind invisible lead box, angled to show illusion which is behind corner box is sitting against?
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One question ... just how large is this box? And are its walls really 1 ft thick lead. And even if only a thin lead layer ...
This rules lawyer is asking as Invisibility has a weight limit :p And at 20th level you've got a ton (2000 lbs) to work with.
Nice catch! So enlarged invisible characters have some problem at low levels.
Even very strong characters with a lot of gear could be outside the spell limits at level 3.
What if you were trolling and had a gnome wizard in a invisible lead box, that itself, was inside another invisible lead box?
Every atom of the box is made of lead. Every atom is also invisible. Divination cannot penetrate lead atoms. Ergo, cannot penetrate the invisibility.
However, if you think of magic as an aura that emanates from the atoms, then you're good to go.
Up to interpretation I guess.
PF matter is made of elements and positive energy, not atoms.
My favorite trick with invisibility has always been to create a wall 10 feet wide with 1 ft square arrow holes in it. Then make it invisible, and aura it. Then put a pit in front of it, 10 ft wide. Put it at the end of a corridor. Cover the pit with quarter inch thick stone that breaks if it has more than say 50 lbs on it.
Stand kobolds behind the invisible wall, shoot the PCs with cross bows. Wait for PCs to charge, see charging PC slam into wall and fall into pit.
See kobolds laugh.
See kobolds drop torch into pit, which has 2 inches of oil at the bottom, under the 2 foot long sharpened spikes.
EDIT : Note this only works if you have Players who like to charge anything in range. Ensure corridor is only 40 ft long so they can charge in one round.
As the rules are written, you'd only ever get the first PC to charge in the pit. Everyone else would see what happens to the poor sap, and take alternative actions.
Nice catch! So enlarged invisible characters have some problem at low levels.One question ... just how large is this box? And are its walls really 1 ft thick lead. And even if only a thin lead layer ...
This rules lawyer is asking as Invisibility has a weight limit :p And at 20th level you've got a ton (2000 lbs) to work with.
That limit is intended for objects, not creatures. A creature of any size and weight may turn invisible just fine.
PF matter is made of elements and positive energy, not atoms.
Whether or not that is true is wholly inconsequential to the discussion. I wasn't speaking scientifically. I just picked the smallest piece of matter that most people can identify with in order to emphasize my point. It was not a statement regarding the actual existence or non-existence of atoms within Pathfinder.